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Re: Doggerland Languages

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  • Eric Christopherson
    ... Many thanks; I d never heard of this area, and it s fascinating that it was above water so recently. ... All excellent questions. I m guessing the language
    Message 1 of 21 , Jul 5, 2012
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      On Jul 3, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Sam Stutter wrote:

      > You may all have seen this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18687504 Scientists have discovered that the lost sunken lands of western Europe were much larger than previously thought.

      Many thanks; I'd never heard of this area, and it's fascinating that it was above water so recently.

      >
      > Under the improbable situation that Doggerland managed to avoid going all Atlantis, the question is what language(s) would be spoken there through recorded history?
      >
      > I'm certain people have done this before with smaller-Doggerland. The new dynamic is that it makes the barriers between European language families much weaker. A nordic speaker would only need to cross something like the English Channel to get into a Celtic(?) heartland. The Romans would have had no real barrier between France and southern Scotland. Germanic and Celtic would have much more contact over a vastly enlarged border area.
      >
      > Would there be less distinction between the language families? Would one (or more) existing language(s) take root there? Or would a vastly different European language emerge?

      All excellent questions. I'm guessing the language families actually spoken in Doggerland would have a historical presence, but other than that I don't know.
    • Eugene Oh
      But at the same time the bigger inland area would likely have changed climate/weather patterns and influenced migration routes, trade routes, economic centres,
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 5, 2012
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        But at the same time the bigger inland area would likely have changed climate/weather patterns and influenced migration routes, trade routes, economic centres, prestige dialects...

        For all we know we might end up exactly where we are today.

        Eugene

        Sent from my iPhone

        5 Jul 2012, в 08:18, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...> написал(а):

        > On Jul 3, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Sam Stutter wrote:
        >
        >> You may all have seen this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18687504 Scientists have discovered that the lost sunken lands of western Europe were much larger than previously thought.
        >
        > Many thanks; I'd never heard of this area, and it's fascinating that it was above water so recently.
        >
        >>
        >> Under the improbable situation that Doggerland managed to avoid going all Atlantis, the question is what language(s) would be spoken there through recorded history?
        >>
        >> I'm certain people have done this before with smaller-Doggerland. The new dynamic is that it makes the barriers between European language families much weaker. A nordic speaker would only need to cross something like the English Channel to get into a Celtic(?) heartland. The Romans would have had no real barrier between France and southern Scotland. Germanic and Celtic would have much more contact over a vastly enlarged border area.
        >>
        >> Would there be less distinction between the language families? Would one (or more) existing language(s) take root there? Or would a vastly different European language emerge?
        >
        > All excellent questions. I'm guessing the language families actually spoken in Doggerland would have a historical presence, but other than that I don't know.
      • Daniel Prohaska
        Hi there, One of my biggest conlang projects since grammar school was a kind of Doggerland conlang. An West-Germanic Anglo-Frisian language similar to but
        Message 3 of 21 , Jul 5, 2012
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          Hi there,
          One of my biggest conlang projects since grammar school was a kind of Doggerland conlang. An West-Germanic Anglo-Frisian language similar to but unlike both English and Frisian situated on an archipelago in the North Sea roughly in the area of the Doggerbank, the last part of Doggerland to be submerged. I have long since planned to take up work on it again and revamp it somewhat, but haven't got round to it yet. In it's oldest form it's somewhere between Old English, Old Saxon and Old Frisian and then I aged it into several 'present-day' dialects, similar in character to the relation ship between Old Norse and Faeroese are today…
          Dan




          On Jul 5, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Eugene Oh wrote:

          > But at the same time the bigger inland area would likely have changed climate/weather patterns and influenced migration routes, trade routes, economic centres, prestige dialects...
          >
          > For all we know we might end up exactly where we are today.
          >
          > Eugene
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > 5 Jul 2012, в 08:18, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...> написал(а):
          >
          >> On Jul 3, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Sam Stutter wrote:
          >>
          >>> You may all have seen this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18687504 Scientists have discovered that the lost sunken lands of western Europe were much larger than previously thought.
          >>
          >> Many thanks; I'd never heard of this area, and it's fascinating that it was above water so recently.
          >>
          >>>
          >>> Under the improbable situation that Doggerland managed to avoid going all Atlantis, the question is what language(s) would be spoken there through recorded history?
          >>>
          >>> I'm certain people have done this before with smaller-Doggerland. The new dynamic is that it makes the barriers between European language families much weaker. A nordic speaker would only need to cross something like the English Channel to get into a Celtic(?) heartland. The Romans would have had no real barrier between France and southern Scotland. Germanic and Celtic would have much more contact over a vastly enlarged border area.
          >>>
          >>> Would there be less distinction between the language families? Would one (or more) existing language(s) take root there? Or would a vastly different European language emerge?
          >>
          >> All excellent questions. I'm guessing the language families actually spoken in Doggerland would have a historical presence, but other than that I don't know.
        • BPJ
          ... There s an article on WP: It seems that a lot of that area may have been covered by (a) freshwater lake(s)
          Message 4 of 21 , Jul 5, 2012
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            On 2012-07-03 16:15, Sam Stutter wrote:
            > You may all have seen this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-18687504 Scientists have discovered that the lost sunken lands of western Europe were much larger than previously thought.
            >
            > Under the improbable situation that Doggerland managed to avoid going all Atlantis, the question is what language(s) would be spoken there through recorded history?
            >
            > I'm certain people have done this before with smaller-Doggerland. The new dynamic is that it makes the barriers between European language families much weaker. A nordic speaker would only need to cross something like the English Channel to get into a Celtic(?) heartland. The Romans would have had no real barrier between France and southern Scotland. Germanic and Celtic would have much more contact over a vastly enlarged border area.
            >
            > Would there be less distinction between the language families? Would one (or more) existing language(s) take root there? Or would a vastly different European language emerge?
            >
            > Sam Stutter
            > samjjs89@...
            > "No e na'l cu barri"
            >

            There's an article on WP:

            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland>

            It seems that a lot of that area may have been covered
            by (a) freshwater lake(s) anyway:

            <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outburst_flood#English_Channel_floods>

            /bpj
          • Anthony Miles
            I wonder if Old Albic has any Doggerland relatives? Or Alpic? I can t think of any other conlangs set in European prehistory.
            Message 5 of 21 , Jul 5, 2012
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              I wonder if Old Albic has any Doggerland relatives? Or Alpic? I can't think of any other conlangs set in European prehistory.
            • Ph. D.
              ... In the USA, there is a popular brand of food for dogs called Alpo. It just struck me as amusing that they would speak Alpic in Dog-gerland. Sorry. --Ph. D.
              Message 6 of 21 , Jul 5, 2012
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                On 7/5/2012 10:16 PM, Anthony Miles wrote:
                > I wonder if Old Albic has any Doggerland relatives? Or Alpic? I can't think of any other conlangs set in European prehistory.

                In the USA, there is a popular brand of food for dogs called Alpo. It
                just struck me as amusing that they would speak Alpic in Dog-gerland. Sorry.

                --Ph. D.
              • Jörg Rhiemeier
                Hallo conlangers! ... At the time of Old Albic (ca. 600 BC), and I think already at the time of Proto-Albic (ca. 2000 BC), Doggerland was no more, but in an
                Message 7 of 21 , Jul 6, 2012
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                  Hallo conlangers!

                  On Friday 06 July 2012 04:16:44 Anthony Miles wrote:

                  > I wonder if Old Albic has any Doggerland relatives? Or Alpic? I can't think
                  > of any other conlangs set in European prehistory.

                  At the time of Old Albic (ca. 600 BC), and I think already at
                  the time of Proto-Albic (ca. 2000 BC), Doggerland was no more,
                  but in an alternative timeline with surviving Dogger islands,
                  there may indeed be an Albic language there. However, such
                  scenarios lie outside my considerations concerning Old Albic
                  and its relatives.

                  --
                  ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                  http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                  "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                • And Rosta
                  ... I think my Livagian is probably descended from Solutrean, as might Doggerlandish have been. This doesn t tell us much, of course, since we know nothing
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jul 6, 2012
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                    Jörg Rhiemeier, On 06/07/2012 17:11:
                    > On Friday 06 July 2012 04:16:44 Anthony Miles wrote:
                    >
                    >> I wonder if Old Albic has any Doggerland relatives? Or Alpic? I can't think
                    >> of any other conlangs set in European prehistory.
                    >
                    > At the time of Old Albic (ca. 600 BC), and I think already at
                    > the time of Proto-Albic (ca. 2000 BC), Doggerland was no more,

                    I think my Livagian is probably descended from Solutrean, as might Doggerlandish have been. This doesn't tell us much, of course, since we know nothing about Solutrean, and almost as little about Livagian.

                    --And.
                  • Padraic Brown
                    ... Doggerland is just a little further back in time from the origins of your Hesperic language family. With Hesperic, you re looking at ca 4000 to 5000 bc;
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jul 6, 2012
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                      --- On Fri, 7/6/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:

                      > From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Doggerland Languages
                      > To: CONLANG@...
                      > Date: Friday, July 6, 2012, 12:11 PM
                      > Hallo conlangers!
                      >
                      > On Friday 06 July 2012 04:16:44 Anthony Miles wrote:
                      >
                      > > I wonder if Old Albic has any Doggerland relatives? Or
                      > Alpic? I can't think
                      > > of any other conlangs set in European prehistory.
                      >
                      > At the time of Old Albic (ca. 600 BC), and I think already
                      > at
                      > the time of Proto-Albic (ca. 2000 BC), Doggerland was no
                      > more,
                      > but in an alternative timeline with surviving Dogger
                      > islands,
                      > there may indeed be an Albic language there.  However,
                      > such
                      > scenarios lie outside my considerations concerning Old
                      > Albic and its relatives.

                      Doggerland is just a little further back in time from the origins of
                      your Hesperic language family. With Hesperic, you're looking at ca 4000
                      to 5000 bc; with Doggerlandish languages, you're only going back to
                      the 10 to 12 thousand bc range for the dispersal of the people whose
                      ancestors had lived there (assuming a slow inundation rather than a
                      sudden flood). Similar time frame as Proto-Nostratic.

                      If Doggerland flooded slowly (in the LLL world), do you think it might be
                      a safe probability, if not an outright certainty, that the Doggerland
                      folk would have pushed west (into Britain) as well as south (into Europe
                      proper) and form either a people ancestral to or providing substrate for
                      the Linear Pottery People (who I gather are the ultimate ancestors of the
                      British Elves and other Hesperic speakers)?

                      Padraic
                    • Christian Thalmann
                      ... Of course, the whole Hairo culture lived only a bit further to the East when it was last seen, in the Rügen/Gotland area. Its spread was presumably much
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jul 7, 2012
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                        On Fri, 6 Jul 2012 18:11:52 +0200, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:

                        >Hallo conlangers!
                        >
                        >On Friday 06 July 2012 04:16:44 Anthony Miles wrote:
                        >
                        >> I wonder if Old Albic has any Doggerland relatives? Or Alpic? I can't think
                        >> of any other conlangs set in European prehistory.
                        >
                        >At the time of Old Albic (ca. 600 BC), and I think already at
                        >the time of Proto-Albic (ca. 2000 BC), Doggerland was no more,
                        >but in an alternative timeline with surviving Dogger islands,
                        >there may indeed be an Albic language there. However, such
                        >scenarios lie outside my considerations concerning Old Albic
                        >and its relatives.

                        Of course, the whole Hairo culture lived only a bit further to the East when it was
                        last seen, in the Rügen/Gotland area. Its spread was presumably much wider in
                        earlier times, given that it influenced the whole Germanic language family. Who
                        knows, they might have started out in Doggerland, driven to migrate and spread
                        by a flood much like other cultures before.
                      • Jörg Rhiemeier
                        Hallo conlangers! ... I indeed fancy the Linear Pottery people to have been the speakers of Proto-Hesperic, but assume (like most archaeologists) that they
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jul 7, 2012
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                          Hallo conlangers!

                          On Saturday 07 July 2012 05:00:28 Padraic Brown wrote:

                          > Doggerland is just a little further back in time from the origins of
                          > your Hesperic language family. With Hesperic, you're looking at ca 4000
                          > to 5000 bc; with Doggerlandish languages, you're only going back to
                          > the 10 to 12 thousand bc range for the dispersal of the people whose
                          > ancestors had lived there (assuming a slow inundation rather than a
                          > sudden flood). Similar time frame as Proto-Nostratic.
                          >
                          > If Doggerland flooded slowly (in the LLL world), do you think it might be
                          > a safe probability, if not an outright certainty, that the Doggerland
                          > folk would have pushed west (into Britain) as well as south (into Europe
                          > proper) and form either a people ancestral to or providing substrate for
                          > the Linear Pottery People (who I gather are the ultimate ancestors of the
                          > British Elves and other Hesperic speakers)?

                          I indeed fancy the Linear Pottery people to have been the speakers
                          of Proto-Hesperic, but assume (like most archaeologists) that they
                          came from their east, and their language was related to Indo-European.
                          Perhaps, the dispersal of IE and Hesperic was due to the Black Sea
                          Flood, if that really happened.

                          --
                          ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                          http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                          "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                        • Padraic Brown
                          ... Ah, I see. From the east. I suppose they could have met some Doggerland survivor descendants... Perhaps conflated their flood legends with their own
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jul 9, 2012
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                            --- On Sat, 7/7/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:

                            > I indeed fancy the Linear Pottery people to have been the
                            > speakers
                            > of Proto-Hesperic, but assume (like most archaeologists)
                            > that they
                            > came from their east, and their language was related to
                            > Indo-European.

                            Ah, I see. From the east. I suppose they could have met some Doggerland
                            survivor descendants... Perhaps conflated their flood legends with their
                            own ancestral recollections of the Black Sea flood?

                            > Perhaps, the dispersal of IE and Hesperic was due to the
                            > Black Sea Flood, if that really happened.

                            I think the archaeology and paleobiology bear this out. A flood of some
                            kind happened in what is essentially just barely pre-historic times. I
                            think what's rather up in the air is what effects it may have had on
                            local peoples, it's actual nature (catastrophic v. mild) and that sort
                            of thing.

                            In the World, Doggerland is still there, at least in part, though it's
                            very much Daine country; and the one time "Hospitable Sea" did indeed
                            flood, catastrophically and fairly recently, after which the Punt
                            (ancestors of the Semites and Aryans) broke up and went in their various
                            directions.

                            Padraic
                          • Dustfinger Batailleur
                            I m sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. There is a reason why IE and Afro-Asiatic are top-level language families - linguists have yet to find a common
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jul 10, 2012
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                              I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. There is a reason why IE and
                              Afro-Asiatic are top-level language families - linguists have yet to find a
                              common linguistic ancestor for the two, and the similarities between the
                              families are attributed to coincidence or contact with each other (compare:
                              Hebrew - Ima; English - mom).

                              On 9 July 2012 19:31, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:

                              > --- On Sat, 7/7/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                              > the Punt
                              > (ancestors of the Semites and Aryans)
                              >
                              > Padraic
                              >
                              >
                            • Jörg Rhiemeier
                              Hallo conlangers! ... Perhaps. ... The matter is somewhat controversial, and the flood may have been more gradual than what Pitman & Ryan lay out in their
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jul 10, 2012
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                                Hallo conlangers!

                                On Tuesday 10 July 2012 01:31:22 Padraic Brown wrote:

                                > --- On Sat, 7/7/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                                > > I indeed fancy the Linear Pottery people to have been the
                                > > speakers
                                > > of Proto-Hesperic, but assume (like most archaeologists)
                                > > that they
                                > > came from their east, and their language was related to
                                > > Indo-European.
                                >
                                > Ah, I see. From the east. I suppose they could have met some Doggerland
                                > survivor descendants... Perhaps conflated their flood legends with their
                                > own ancestral recollections of the Black Sea flood?

                                Perhaps.

                                > > Perhaps, the dispersal of IE and Hesperic was due to the
                                > > Black Sea Flood, if that really happened.
                                >
                                > I think the archaeology and paleobiology bear this out. A flood of some
                                > kind happened in what is essentially just barely pre-historic times. I
                                > think what's rather up in the air is what effects it may have had on
                                > local peoples, it's actual nature (catastrophic v. mild) and that sort
                                > of thing.

                                The matter is somewhat controversial, and the flood may have been
                                more gradual than what Pitman & Ryan lay out in their book, _Noah's
                                Flood_. (Also, I am not convinced of the idea that the Biblical
                                and Mesopotamian flood myths are recollections of *this* flood.)
                                But at any rate, there was a large area of land - very fertile
                                land indeed, with a favourable climate - being flooded within a
                                few years (or at least, a few decades) where now are the Bay of
                                Odessa and the Sea of Azov. The natural response would be to
                                pack up everything in a boat and travel upriver as far and as
                                fast as possible. (The wheel was not yet invented, and the
                                horse not yet domesticated, so boats were the best option.)

                                > In the World, Doggerland is still there, at least in part, though it's
                                > very much Daine country; and the one time "Hospitable Sea" did indeed
                                > flood, catastrophically and fairly recently, after which the Punt
                                > (ancestors of the Semites and Aryans) broke up and went in their various
                                > directions.

                                As Dustfinger has pointed out, chances that IE and Semitic are
                                related are slim. I consider an IE-Uralic relationship much
                                more likely. Also, if Semitic is related to IE, the whole Afro-
                                Asiatic family is - and that family almost certainly radiated
                                from somewhere in northeastern Africa.

                                --
                                ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                                http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                                "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                              • BPJ
                                ... Padraic was not speaking about this world, but about The World, which only occasionally is like this world, and then deceptively so! ;-) Besides there s no
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jul 10, 2012
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                                  On 2012-07-10 16:23, Dustfinger Batailleur wrote:
                                  > I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. There is a reason why IE and
                                  > Afro-Asiatic are top-level language families - linguists have yet to find a
                                  > common linguistic ancestor for the two, and the similarities between the
                                  > families are attributed to coincidence or contact with each other (compare:
                                  > Hebrew - Ima; English - mom).
                                  >
                                  > On 9 July 2012 19:31, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> --- On Sat, 7/7/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                                  >> the Punt
                                  >> (ancestors of the Semites and Aryans)
                                  >>
                                  >> Padraic
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >

                                  Padraic was not speaking about this world, but about The World,
                                  which only occasionally is like this world, and then deceptively
                                  so! ;-)

                                  Besides there's no correlation whatsoever between
                                  populations/genetics and language history or language geography.
                                  Languages of the same family may be spoken by populations
                                  without any common biological ancestry, and populations
                                  with a common biological ancestry may speak totally
                                  unrelated languages. Another fundamental difference
                                  between biological relationship and language relationship
                                  is that languages may converge as well as diverge.

                                  /bpj
                                • Jörg Rhiemeier
                                  Hallo conlangers! ... Yes. His Aryan languages, from what I have seen, look pretty Indo-European, but perhaps his Semitic languages are very different
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jul 10, 2012
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                                    Hallo conlangers!

                                    On Tuesday 10 July 2012 17:08:26 BPJ wrote:

                                    > On 2012-07-10 16:23, Dustfinger Batailleur wrote:
                                    > > I'm sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. There is a reason why IE
                                    > > and Afro-Asiatic are top-level language families - linguists have yet to
                                    > > find a common linguistic ancestor for the two, and the similarities
                                    > > between the families are attributed to coincidence or contact with each
                                    > > other (compare: Hebrew - Ima; English - mom).
                                    > >
                                    > > On 9 July 2012 19:31, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:
                                    > >> --- On Sat, 7/7/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                                    > >> the Punt
                                    > >>
                                    > >> (ancestors of the Semites and Aryans)
                                    > >>
                                    > >> Padraic
                                    >
                                    > Padraic was not speaking about this world, but about The World,
                                    > which only occasionally is like this world, and then deceptively
                                    > so! ;-)

                                    Yes. His "Aryan" languages, from what I have seen, look pretty
                                    Indo-European, but perhaps his "Semitic" languages are very
                                    different from the Semitic languages of our world - I haven't
                                    seen any of them yet. And then, diachronic development of
                                    languages may function differently in The World.

                                    > Besides there's no correlation whatsoever between
                                    > populations/genetics and language history or language geography.
                                    > Languages of the same family may be spoken by populations
                                    > without any common biological ancestry,

                                    A good example is Turkic - Turkish and Yakut are clearly
                                    related, but the genetic profiles of Turks and Yakuts are
                                    very different.

                                    > and populations
                                    > with a common biological ancestry may speak totally
                                    > unrelated languages.

                                    Yes. Again, the Turkic example: Turks are genetically
                                    similar to Greeks and Armenians; Yakuts are genetically
                                    similar to Evenki and Yukaghirs.

                                    > Another fundamental difference
                                    > between biological relationship and language relationship
                                    > is that languages may converge as well as diverge.

                                    Also true. For instance, it is uncertain whether Altaic is a
                                    language family (divergent) or a Sprachbund (convergent).

                                    --
                                    ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                                    http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                                    "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                                  • Padraic Brown
                                    ... Exactly. As I understand it, it could have even swung back and forth over the years. ... I agree on this. The Sumerian and Hebrew myths don t seem to read
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jul 10, 2012
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                                      --- On Tue, 7/10/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:

                                      > > > Perhaps, the dispersal of IE and Hesperic was due
                                      > to the
                                      > > > Black Sea Flood, if that really happened.
                                      > >
                                      > > I think the archaeology and paleobiology bear this out.
                                      > A flood of some
                                      > > kind happened in what is essentially just barely
                                      > pre-historic times. I
                                      > > think what's rather up in the air is what effects it
                                      > may have had on
                                      > > local peoples, it's actual nature (catastrophic v.
                                      > mild) and that sort
                                      > > of thing.
                                      >
                                      > The matter is somewhat controversial, and the flood may have
                                      > been more gradual than what Pitman & Ryan lay out in their
                                      > book, _Noah's Flood_.

                                      Exactly. As I understand it, it could have even swung back and forth over
                                      the years.

                                      >  (Also, I am not convinced of the idea that the Biblical
                                      > and Mesopotamian flood myths are recollections of *this*
                                      > flood.)

                                      I agree on this. The Sumerian and Hebrew myths don't seem to read like
                                      stories of a rising body of water so much as a whole lot of rain coming
                                      down.

                                      > But at any rate, there was a large area of land - very
                                      > fertile
                                      > land indeed, with a favourable climate - being flooded
                                      > within a
                                      > few years (or at least, a few decades) where now are the Bay
                                      > of
                                      > Odessa and the Sea of Azov.  The natural response would
                                      > be to
                                      > pack up everything in a boat and travel upriver as far and
                                      > as
                                      > fast as possible. 

                                      Right. Or hoof it where a convenient boat was not to be had!

                                      > (The wheel was not yet invented, and the
                                      > horse not yet domesticated, so boats were the best option.)

                                      In the World, Men of that region already had both at that time (and for
                                      quite a long while before), so those would be options. But even so, the
                                      catastrophic nature of the event *there* would have precluded escape for
                                      very many, by boat or any other means of travel. They would have just been
                                      swept away.


                                      > > the one time "Hospitable Sea" did indeed flood, catastrophically and
                                      > > fairly recently, after which the Punt (ancestors of the Semites and
                                      > > Aryans) broke up and went in their various directions.
                                      >
                                      > As Dustfinger has pointed out, chances that IE and Semitic
                                      > are related are slim. 

                                      Oh I agree, but I didn't say they were linguistically related --

                                      "Punt was a region of lush lowlands around the Hospitable Sea, away to the northeast of the great Inland Sea. Along with Atelante, Punt was one of the Archaic Empires of early human history. It was flooded and disappeared under the waters of the inflooding of the Inland Sea some 5000 years or so before the end of the previous age. After this time, the sea became called Black or Inhospitable. The survivors of this catastrophe are known to later history as the Aryans (lordly people) and the Shemans (shining people); they are well known for having created and propagated tales of their narrow escape and the harrowing ordeal that ensued."

                                      -- Punt, you see, is (or rather *was*) a country. The Aryans and the
                                      Shemans were just two of the ethnic groups living there at the time. There
                                      were others, to be sure, but it's these two whose descendants have become
                                      so prominent in the region.

                                      > I consider an IE-Uralic relationship much
                                      > more likely.  Also, if Semitic is related to IE, the
                                      > whole Afro-Asiatic family is - and that family almost certainly
                                      > radiated from somewhere in northeastern Africa.

                                      I don't know much about the relationships of human languages much earlier
                                      than the 10000 BC range. I suspect that something akin to this A-A family
                                      getting its start in NE Africa would be a good analog.

                                      Padraic
                                    • Jörg Rhiemeier
                                      Hallo conlangers! ... Yes. ... Indeed. Also, I doubt that many refugees from the Black Sea Flood wound up in Mesopotamia. There are many mountains in
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jul 11, 2012
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                                        Hallo conlangers!

                                        On Wednesday 11 July 2012 00:46:19 Padraic Brown wrote:

                                        > --- On Tue, 7/10/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > The matter is somewhat controversial, and the flood may have
                                        > > been more gradual than what Pitman & Ryan lay out in their
                                        > > book, _Noah's Flood_.
                                        >
                                        > Exactly. As I understand it, it could have even swung back and forth over
                                        > the years.

                                        Yes.

                                        > > (Also, I am not convinced of the idea that the Biblical
                                        > >
                                        > > and Mesopotamian flood myths are recollections of *this*
                                        > > flood.)
                                        >
                                        > I agree on this. The Sumerian and Hebrew myths don't seem to read like
                                        > stories of a rising body of water so much as a whole lot of rain coming
                                        > down.

                                        Indeed. Also, I doubt that many refugees from the Black Sea Flood
                                        wound up in Mesopotamia. There are many mountains in between.

                                        > > But at any rate, there was a large area of land - very
                                        > > fertile
                                        > > land indeed, with a favourable climate - being flooded
                                        > > within a
                                        > > few years (or at least, a few decades) where now are the Bay
                                        > > of
                                        > > Odessa and the Sea of Azov. The natural response would
                                        > > be to
                                        > > pack up everything in a boat and travel upriver as far and
                                        > > as
                                        > > fast as possible.
                                        >
                                        > Right. Or hoof it where a convenient boat was not to be had!

                                        But those who did have one at hand had better chances to escape ;)

                                        > > (The wheel was not yet invented, and the
                                        > > horse not yet domesticated, so boats were the best option.)
                                        >
                                        > In the World, Men of that region already had both at that time (and for
                                        > quite a long while before), so those would be options. But even so, the
                                        > catastrophic nature of the event *there* would have precluded escape for
                                        > very many, by boat or any other means of travel. They would have just been
                                        > swept away.
                                        >
                                        > > > the one time "Hospitable Sea" did indeed flood, catastrophically and
                                        > > > fairly recently, after which the Punt (ancestors of the Semites and
                                        > > > Aryans) broke up and went in their various directions.
                                        > >
                                        > > As Dustfinger has pointed out, chances that IE and Semitic
                                        > > are related are slim.
                                        >
                                        > Oh I agree, but I didn't say they were linguistically related --
                                        >
                                        > "Punt was a region of lush lowlands around the Hospitable Sea, away to the
                                        > northeast of the great Inland Sea. Along with Atelante, Punt was one of
                                        > the Archaic Empires of early human history. It was flooded and disappeared
                                        > under the waters of the inflooding of the Inland Sea some 5000 years or so
                                        > before the end of the previous age. After this time, the sea became called
                                        > Black or Inhospitable. The survivors of this catastrophe are known to
                                        > later history as the Aryans (lordly people) and the Shemans (shining
                                        > people); they are well known for having created and propagated tales of
                                        > their narrow escape and the harrowing ordeal that ensued."
                                        >
                                        > -- Punt, you see, is (or rather *was*) a country. The Aryans and the
                                        > Shemans were just two of the ethnic groups living there at the time. There
                                        > were others, to be sure, but it's these two whose descendants have become
                                        > so prominent in the region.

                                        I see. Pitman & Ryan entertain the notion that the Indo-
                                        Europeans came from the north of the Black Sea basin, and
                                        the Semites from the south. No implication of relationship.
                                        What regards the Indo-Europeans, it makes sense, what regards
                                        the Semites, less so - what about the many languages in Africa
                                        that are obviously related to Semitic? Pitman & Ryan aren't
                                        linguists and probably weren't aware of this problem.

                                        > > I consider an IE-Uralic relationship much
                                        > > more likely. Also, if Semitic is related to IE, the
                                        > > whole Afro-Asiatic family is - and that family almost certainly
                                        > > radiated from somewhere in northeastern Africa.
                                        >
                                        > I don't know much about the relationships of human languages much earlier
                                        > than the 10000 BC range. I suspect that something akin to this A-A family
                                        > getting its start in NE Africa would be a good analog.

                                        Little is known about language relationships that old. There
                                        aren't many good A-A cognates and no generally accepted
                                        reconstruction at hand. But there are sufficient resemblances
                                        in morphology to consider the languages related to each other.
                                        But it is probably a historical accident that A-A is an accepted
                                        family and Indo-Uralic is not. IE and Uralic are IMHO as close
                                        to each other as Semitic is to Cushitic. I'd estimate Proto-
                                        Indo-Uralic to have been spoken about 10,000 years ago, perhaps
                                        in the southwestern corner of Siberia.

                                        --
                                        ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                                        http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
                                        "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
                                      • Wesley Parish
                                        FWLIW, I tend to agree with the suggestion made in Stephen Oppenheiner s book Out of Eden when he points out that the people with flood myths tend to be the
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jul 11, 2012
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                                          FWLIW, I tend to agree with the suggestion made in Stephen
                                          Oppenheiner's book Out of Eden when he points out that the people
                                          with flood myths tend to be the beach-combers and estaurine and
                                          riverrine people who got caught and narrowly missed the rising waters
                                          at the end of the last Ice Age.

                                          It fits the data best - flood myths world-wide, but in completely
                                          different environmental contexts.

                                          Wesley Parish

                                          On 11/07/2012, at 10:46 AM, Padraic Brown wrote:

                                          > --- On Tue, 7/10/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >>>> Perhaps, the dispersal of IE and Hesperic was due
                                          >> to the
                                          >>>> Black Sea Flood, if that really happened.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> I think the archaeology and paleobiology bear this out.
                                          >> A flood of some
                                          >>> kind happened in what is essentially just barely
                                          >> pre-historic times. I
                                          >>> think what's rather up in the air is what effects it
                                          >> may have had on
                                          >>> local peoples, it's actual nature (catastrophic v.
                                          >> mild) and that sort
                                          >>> of thing.
                                          >>
                                          >> The matter is somewhat controversial, and the flood may have
                                          >> been more gradual than what Pitman & Ryan lay out in their
                                          >> book, _Noah's Flood_.
                                          >
                                          > Exactly. As I understand it, it could have even swung back and
                                          > forth over
                                          > the years.
                                          >
                                          >> (Also, I am not convinced of the idea that the Biblical
                                          >> and Mesopotamian flood myths are recollections of *this*
                                          >> flood.)
                                          >
                                          > I agree on this. The Sumerian and Hebrew myths don't seem to read like
                                          > stories of a rising body of water so much as a whole lot of rain
                                          > coming
                                          > down.
                                          >
                                          >> But at any rate, there was a large area of land - very
                                          >> fertile
                                          >> land indeed, with a favourable climate - being flooded
                                          >> within a
                                          >> few years (or at least, a few decades) where now are the Bay
                                          >> of
                                          >> Odessa and the Sea of Azov. The natural response would
                                          >> be to
                                          >> pack up everything in a boat and travel upriver as far and
                                          >> as
                                          >> fast as possible.
                                          >
                                          > Right. Or hoof it where a convenient boat was not to be had!
                                          >
                                          >> (The wheel was not yet invented, and the
                                          >> horse not yet domesticated, so boats were the best option.)
                                          >
                                          > In the World, Men of that region already had both at that time (and
                                          > for
                                          > quite a long while before), so those would be options. But even so,
                                          > the
                                          > catastrophic nature of the event *there* would have precluded
                                          > escape for
                                          > very many, by boat or any other means of travel. They would have
                                          > just been
                                          > swept away.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >>> the one time "Hospitable Sea" did indeed flood, catastrophically and
                                          >>> fairly recently, after which the Punt (ancestors of the Semites and
                                          >>> Aryans) broke up and went in their various directions.
                                          >>
                                          >> As Dustfinger has pointed out, chances that IE and Semitic
                                          >> are related are slim.
                                          >
                                          > Oh I agree, but I didn't say they were linguistically related --
                                          >
                                          > "Punt was a region of lush lowlands around the Hospitable Sea, away
                                          > to the northeast of the great Inland Sea. Along with Atelante, Punt
                                          > was one of the Archaic Empires of early human history. It was
                                          > flooded and disappeared under the waters of the inflooding of the
                                          > Inland Sea some 5000 years or so before the end of the previous
                                          > age. After this time, the sea became called Black or Inhospitable.
                                          > The survivors of this catastrophe are known to later history as the
                                          > Aryans (lordly people) and the Shemans (shining people); they are
                                          > well known for having created and propagated tales of their narrow
                                          > escape and the harrowing ordeal that ensued."
                                          >
                                          > -- Punt, you see, is (or rather *was*) a country. The Aryans and the
                                          > Shemans were just two of the ethnic groups living there at the
                                          > time. There
                                          > were others, to be sure, but it's these two whose descendants have
                                          > become
                                          > so prominent in the region.
                                          >
                                          >> I consider an IE-Uralic relationship much
                                          >> more likely. Also, if Semitic is related to IE, the
                                          >> whole Afro-Asiatic family is - and that family almost certainly
                                          >> radiated from somewhere in northeastern Africa.
                                          >
                                          > I don't know much about the relationships of human languages much
                                          > earlier
                                          > than the 10000 BC range. I suspect that something akin to this A-A
                                          > family
                                          > getting its start in NE Africa would be a good analog.
                                          >
                                          > Padraic
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Padraic Brown
                                          ... Indeed! ... I think that could broadly fit the situation in Punt. The people that would give rise to the Aryans largely ended up to the north, east and
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jul 11, 2012
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                                            --- On Wed, 7/11/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:

                                            > > > The natural response would
                                            > > > be to
                                            > > > pack up everything in a boat and travel upriver as
                                            > far and
                                            > > > as
                                            > > > fast as possible.
                                            > >
                                            > > Right. Or hoof it where a convenient boat was not to be
                                            > had!
                                            >
                                            > But those who did have one at hand had better chances to
                                            > escape ;)

                                            Indeed!

                                            > I see.  Pitman & Ryan entertain the notion that the
                                            > Indo-
                                            > Europeans came from the north of the Black Sea basin, and
                                            > the Semites from the south.  No implication of
                                            > relationship.

                                            I think that could broadly fit the situation in Punt. The people that
                                            would give rise to the Aryans largely ended up to the north, east and
                                            west of the now Inhospitable Sea. The folks that would give rise to the
                                            Semites ended up heading further south and southeast.

                                            > What regards the Indo-Europeans, it makes sense, what
                                            > regards
                                            > the Semites, less so - what about the many languages in
                                            > Africa
                                            > that are obviously related to Semitic? 

                                            In the World, there were certainly Semites that moved into that area --
                                            but Egypt had already for thousands of years been home to Atalantean
                                            colonists. The proto-Semites coming down from southern Punt would be
                                            quite the newcomers.

                                            > Pitman & Ryan aren't
                                            > linguists and probably weren't aware of this problem.

                                            I'm at least dimly aware of such problems (and of course have good folks
                                            like you and others on Conlang to remind me!) -- but P&R are trying to
                                            hypothesis about real world events. I have the luxury of waving my magic
                                            wand and saying "well, that's just how it is in The World!" and sort out
                                            some kind of explanation later.

                                            In general terms, Men came wandering out of eastern Nubia some time in the
                                            relatively recent past -- probably along the lines of about 70k years ago.
                                            They would eventually meet Daine who'd already been pretty civilized for
                                            perhaps a million or more years before that time. (Men really *are* quite
                                            the newcomers!) And there are still the Teor who've been around quite a
                                            while before that.

                                            All this had the effect of circumscribing where and how far they could
                                            migrate, but also introduced them to civilised arts far sooner. The oldest
                                            "pre-civilisations" of Men in the World are along the lines of 40kya. The
                                            so-called "archaic empires", something more like what we'd recognise as
                                            nation-states, arose around 12 to 15kya.

                                            Throw into the mix several other hominid races plus the effects all this
                                            external civilisation has on people and you can imagine how linguistic
                                            history could be all messy *there*.

                                            Padraic
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