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Ot: Re: OT: Latin translation

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  • George Marques
    ... Alright, given my previous trouble I decided to give it a try in my own conlang. Sã kuretemi saia kesnolia ƥei sã nipiti ło tsi pil teli E ło kiƭa
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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      On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:09:24 +0100, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:

      >"The forest is enclosed in the light of the moon; my home is
      >the forest in the light of the stars."
      >
      >--
      >Ray
      >==================================
      >http://www.carolandray.plus.com

      Alright, given my previous trouble I decided to give it a try in my own conlang.

      Sã kuretemi saia kesnolia ƥei sã nipiti ło tsi pil teli
      E ło kiƭa saia sã kuretemi ƥei xasel ło tsi pil peli

      The forest NOM hide-pastparticiple ABS the moon GEN light LOC is-3sg
      I GEN home NOM the forest ABS stars GEN light LOC is-3sg

      With "kuretemi" (forest) being like a "collection of trees" and "nipiti" (moon) being the diminutive of "nipo" (planet).
    • Sam Stutter
      I ve always wanted to use the chezative and disseminative adverbs: Sebela geluk ybek klerèyu chisayal. Gejek dichuk sebelayu ybek klerèyu mekasyal. The
      Message 2 of 20 , May 1, 2012
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        I've always wanted to use the chezative and disseminative adverbs:

        Sebela geluk ybek klerèyu chisayal. Gejek dichuk sebelayu ybek klerèyu mekasyal.

        "The forest is located dispersed beneath the moon's light. I am located at home at the forest dispersed beneath the stars' light."

        Where the verb "ga" (geluk, gejek) is "to be located", "ybek" is disseminative and "dichuk" is chezative.

        Sam Stutter
        samjjs89@...
        "No e na'l cu barri"

        On 1 May 2012, at 10:21, George Marques <georgemjesus@...> wrote:

        > On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:09:24 +0100, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
        >
        >> "The forest is enclosed in the light of the moon; my home is
        >> the forest in the light of the stars."
        >>
        >> --
        >> Ray
        >> ==================================
        >> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
        >
        > Alright, given my previous trouble I decided to give it a try in my own conlang.
        >
        > Sã kuretemi saia kesnolia ƥei sã nipiti ło tsi pil teli
        > E ło kiƭa saia sã kuretemi ƥei xasel ło tsi pil peli
        >
        > The forest NOM hide-pastparticiple ABS the moon GEN light LOC is-3sg
        > I GEN home NOM the forest ABS stars GEN light LOC is-3sg
        >
        > With "kuretemi" (forest) being like a "collection of trees" and "nipiti" (moon) being the diminutive of "nipo" (planet).
      • And Rosta
        ... At first glance I thought chezative and disseminative involved some sort of jest about cheese, semen and, well, I had better not spell it out further. Who
        Message 3 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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          Sam Stutter, On 01/05/2012 11:40:
          > I've always wanted to use the chezative and disseminative adverbs:
          >
          > Sebela geluk ybek klerèyu chisayal. Gejek dichuk sebelayu ybek klerèyu mekasyal.
          >
          > "The forest is located dispersed beneath the moon's light. I am located at home at the forest dispersed beneath the stars' light."
          >
          > Where the verb "ga" (geluk, gejek) is "to be located", "ybek" is disseminative and "dichuk" is chezative.

          At first glance I thought chezative and disseminative involved some sort of jest about cheese, semen and, well, I had better not spell it out further.

          Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and _disseminative_? IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative', from Lat _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm A, et al.

          Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term _andative_ comes from? I mean, by what process did it gain sufficient currency to end up with a Wikipedia page devoted to it? Is it merely some kind of epicfaily grasping towards what, if reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_? or does it have respectable credentials (and if so, what are they)? (Respectable credentials or no, I'm buggered if I'm ever going to consent to use _andative_.)

          --And.
        • Sam Stutter
          ... I did steal the terms from a (probably rather old) linguistics textbook. Then again, I ve never quite been happy with them myself. ... Andative? I would
          Message 4 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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            On 2 May 2012, at 19:09, And Rosta wrote:

            > Sam Stutter, On 01/05/2012 11:40:
            >> I've always wanted to use the chezative and disseminative adverbs:
            >>
            >> Sebela geluk ybek klerèyu chisayal. Gejek dichuk sebelayu ybek klerèyu mekasyal.
            >>
            >> "The forest is located dispersed beneath the moon's light. I am located at home at the forest dispersed beneath the stars' light."
            >>
            >> Where the verb "ga" (geluk, gejek) is "to be located", "ybek" is disseminative and "dichuk" is chezative.
            >
            > At first glance I thought chezative and disseminative involved some sort of jest about cheese, semen and, well, I had better not spell it out further.
            >
            > Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and _disseminative_? IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative', from Lat _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm A, et al.

            I did steal the terms from a (probably rather old) linguistics textbook. Then again, I've never quite been happy with them myself.

            >
            > Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term _andative_ comes from? I mean, by what process did it gain sufficient currency to end up with a Wikipedia page devoted to it? Is it merely some kind of epicfaily grasping towards what, if reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_? or does it have respectable credentials (and if so, what are they)? (Respectable credentials or no, I'm buggered if I'm ever going to consent to use _andative_.)
            >
            > --And.

            Andative? I would have thought it was named after you? :)
          • And Rosta
            ... I see _chezative_ does come up with two hits on Google Books & Scholar. ... Ho ho, perhaps then I must forgive it. Attempting to answer my own question, I
            Message 5 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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              Sam Stutter, On 02/05/2012 19:16:
              > On 2 May 2012, at 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
              >> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and
              >> _disseminative_? IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative',
              >> from Lat _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will
              >> tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and _dispersative_, with
              >> deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm A, et al.
              >
              > I did steal the terms from a (probably rather old) linguistics
              > textbook. Then again, I've never quite been happy with them myself.

              I see _chezative_ does come up with two hits on Google Books & Scholar.

              >> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
              >> _andative_ comes from? I mean, by what process did it gain
              >> sufficient currency to end up with a Wikipedia page devoted to it?
              >> Is it merely some kind of epicfaily grasping towards what, if
              >> reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_? or does
              >> it have respectable credentials (and if so, what are they)?
              >> (Respectable credentials or no, I'm buggered if I'm ever going to
              >> consent to use _andative_.)
              >>
              >> --And.
              >
              > Andative? I would have thought it was named after you? :)

              Ho ho, perhaps then I must forgive it. Attempting to answer my own question, I find that _andative_ dates back to at least 1925 in linguistics scholarship (with no indication of it being newly coined then): J. de Angulo and L. S. Freeland 1925 The Chontal Language. (Dialect of Tequixistlan) Anthropos 1032-1052. But why _andative_ and not _itive_? I am perplexed.

              --And.
            • BPJ
              ... There are two problems here: (1) In real Latin _-ivus_ only attaches to the supine stem of verbs. This is usually skirted by way of compounds with
              Message 6 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                On 2012-05-02 20:09, And Rosta wrote:
                > Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_ and
                > _disseminative_? IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative',
                > from Lat _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-. I will
                > tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and _dispersative_, with
                > deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm A, et al.

                There are two problems here: (1) In real Latin _-ivus_ only
                attaches to the supine stem of verbs. This is usually skirted
                by way of compounds with _-essive_ 'of being at' and _-lative_
                'of bringing to', so perhaps "domiessive" < _domi_ 'at home'?
                Doesn't feel quite right though. Perhaps simply "casal" since
                _chez_ < CASA, which meant 'hut' in aristocratic Latin but
                'house' in popular Latin. One sorely wants to turn to Greek...
                (2) _dispers-_ is already the supine stem of _dispergo_, like
                so many Latinate verbs in English _disperse_ is a back-formation
                from the action noun (_dispersio(n)_), so the form would be
                "dispersive".

                Deference in advance to RAB whom I expect to shred my 22:40 P.M.
                reasoning into pieces! :-)

                /bpj
              • R A Brown
                ... [snip ... _disseminative_ is well-formed. ... Yep - used in the earlier sense by Sidney Ray, Johannes & Alfredo Trombetti according to Larry Trask. But
                Message 7 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                  On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
                  > Sam Stutter, On 01/05/2012 11:40:
                  [snip

                  >
                  > Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
                  > and _disseminative_?

                  _disseminative_ is well-formed.

                  > IIRC, _ergative_ originally meant 'chezative', from Lat
                  > _erga_, subsequently reanalysed as from Gk ergat-.

                  Yep - used in the earlier sense by Sidney Ray, Johannes &
                  Alfredo Trombetti according to Larry Trask. But when
                  reinterpreted as a Graeco-Latin hybrid it acquired a new
                  meaning which we use today.

                  > I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
                  > _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
                  > A, et al.

                  _dispersive_ is better.

                  There is no verb *domiciliare; in any case _domiciliative_
                  is a bit of a mouthful.

                  The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
                  _apudessive_ ;)

                  > Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
                  > _andative_ comes from?

                  ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!

                  Besides those _domiciliative_ looks more than reasonable.

                  Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
                  hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
                  Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?

                  > I mean, by what process did it gain sufficient currency
                  > to end up with a Wikipedia page devoted to it? Is it
                  > merely some kind of epicfaily grasping towards what, if
                  > reached, would have turned out to be (I suppose) _itive_?
                  >
                  I guess the the guy who wrote the Wikipedia page is keen on
                  them ;)

                  > or does it have respectable credentials (and if so, what
                  > are they)? (Respectable credentials or no, I'm buggered
                  > if I'm ever going to consent to use _andative_.)

                  Quite right - and I'm dubious about the respectable
                  credentials.

                  The alternatives given on that page, namely, _itive_ and
                  _ventive_, or _translocative_ and _cislocative_ are IMO much
                  more preferable.

                  --
                  Ray
                  ==================================
                  http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                  ==================================
                  Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
                  There's none too old to learn.
                  [WELSH PROVERB]
                • R A Brown
                  On 02/05/2012 21:40, BPJ wrote: [snip] ... Correct. ... Also correct - tho -lative is of course an example of -ive attached to a supine stem ;) ... It
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                    On 02/05/2012 21:40, BPJ wrote:
                    [snip]
                    >
                    > There are two problems here: (1) In real Latin _-ivus_
                    > only attaches to the supine stem of verbs.

                    Correct.

                    > This is usually skirted by way of compounds with
                    > _-essive_ 'of being at' and _-lative_ 'of bringing to',

                    Also correct - tho -lative is of course an example of -ive
                    attached to a supine stem ;)

                    > so perhaps "domiessive" < _domi_ 'at home'? Doesn't feel
                    > quite right though.

                    It doesn't, does it? Last evening I suggested _apudessive_
                    from Latin _apud_ = "at the house of." On searching on
                    Google, I find that the term has already been coined ;)

                    > Perhaps simply "casal" since _chez_ < CASA, which meant
                    > 'hut' in aristocratic Latin but 'house' in popular Latin.
                    > One sorely wants to turn to Greek... (2)

                    Sort of like _ergative_, you mean? Presumably from
                    ἐργατικός (ergatikós) "able to work, productive,
                    industrious", substituting the Latinate -ive, for for the
                    Greek =ic (-ikos).

                    Not sure that Greek would help here; a comparable formation,
                    I guess, would take οἰκητικός (oikētikós), which would be
                    Latinized as _oeceticus_, as its base and give us the
                    _oecetive_ case. I think I prefer _apudessive_.

                    > _dispers-_ is already the supine stem of _dispergo_, like
                    > so many Latinate verbs in English _disperse_ is a
                    > back-formation from the action noun (_dispersio(n)_), so
                    > the form would be "dispersive".

                    Exactly!

                    > Deference in advance to RAB whom I expect to shred my
                    > 22:40 P.M. reasoning into pieces! :-)

                    Sorry - I've agreed with you on at least three points :-)

                    --
                    Ray
                    ==================================
                    http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                    ==================================
                    Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
                    There's none too old to learn.
                    [WELSH PROVERB]
                  • BPJ
                    (Sorry for the narrow column. I wasn t wearing my glasses...) ... Apudessive case even has a stub on WP! I see now that at the house
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 2, 2012
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                      (Sorry for the narrow column. I wasn't wearing my glasses...)

                      On 2012-05-02 22:59, R A Brown wrote:
                      > The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
                      > _apudessive_ ;)

                      <slaps self in head>

                      "Apudessive case" even has a stub on WP!

                      I see now that 'at the house of' is indeed
                      among the meanings of _apud_ according to my
                      Latin-English dictionary, while the Latin-Swedish
                      one only gives "hos", which is etymologically
                      derived from _hus_ 'house' similarly to what
                      happened to CASA in French, but has had its
                      meaning weakened to 'at (someones home, shop,
                      institution, place in general), "in" an author'.
                      The Latin-English dictionary also lists the
                      the meaning 'with', which is the meaning which
                      survived in Gallo-Latin, only to be replaced
                      by _chez_ which had apparently gone trough
                      the very same semantic drift -- if 'at the
                      house of' was indeed the main meaning of
                      _apud_ in older Latin, although my dictionary
                      lists 'beside, by, with' before 'at the house
                      of'. It also lists an alternative spelling
                      _aput_ which looks like a hypercorrection to me.

                      (The reason I'm thinking so much about this
                      word is because I'm wavering as to what its
                      reflex should be in my (Gallo-)Romlang Rhodrese.
                      I'm not particularly keen on having it merge
                      with AURUM or, worse, AUT, which it regularly
                      would.)

                      /bpj
                    • And Rosta
                      ... I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only to sow , so was inapt, tho on checking I see it means also to strew , so is actually apt. ... It d be better
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 3, 2012
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                        R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
                        > On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
                        >> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
                        >> and _disseminative_?
                        >
                        > _disseminative_ is well-formed.

                        I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho on checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.

                        >> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
                        >> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
                        >> A, et al.
                        >
                        > _dispersive_ is better.

                        It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from _dispergere_, but it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that English linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_ (rather than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively the formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from the participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a potential _dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested _dispersative_.

                        > The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
                        > _apudessive_ ;)

                        O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!

                        >> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
                        >> _andative_ comes from?
                        >
                        > ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
                        >
                        > Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
                        > hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
                        > Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?

                        At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology and orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that gives it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to conform to expected standards of terminological probity.

                        --And.
                      • Peter Cyrus
                        How about casative ?
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 3, 2012
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                          How about "casative"?

                          On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@...> wrote:

                          > R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
                          >
                          >> On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
                          >>
                          >>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
                          >>> and _disseminative_?
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> _disseminative_ is well-formed.
                          >>
                          >
                          > I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho
                          > on checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
                          >>> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
                          >>> A, et al.
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> _dispersive_ is better.
                          >>
                          >
                          > It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from _dispergere_,
                          > but it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that English
                          > linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_ (rather
                          > than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively
                          > the formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from
                          > the participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a potential
                          > _dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested
                          > _dispersative_.
                          >
                          >
                          > The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
                          >> _apudessive_ ;)
                          >>
                          >
                          > O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!
                          >
                          > Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
                          >>> _andative_ comes from?
                          >>>
                          >>
                          >> ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
                          >>
                          >> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
                          >> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
                          >> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
                          >>
                          >
                          > At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology and
                          > orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that
                          > gives it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to
                          > conform to expected standards of terminological probity.
                          >
                          > --And.
                          >
                        • R A Brown
                          ... [snip] ... Not entirely true. Certainly _ch_ and _z_ are not found in native Latin words (_ch_ did creep into the spelling of a few, e.g _pulcher_ for
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                            On 04/05/2012 00:55, And Rosta wrote:
                            > R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
                            [snip]
                            >> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
                            >> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
                            >> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
                            >
                            > At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with
                            > Latin phonology and orthography. _Chezative_ is
                            > consistent with neither --

                            Not entirely true. Certainly _ch_ and _z_ are not found in
                            native Latin words (_ch_ did creep into the spelling of a
                            few, e.g _pulcher_ for earlier _pulcer_) - but they are
                            found in words borrowed from Greek.

                            Now there was a Greek χέζω _chézō_ = "I shit". It's not
                            exactly a great flight of imagination to think there might
                            have been a colloquial *chezáre "to shit", which makes the
                            _chezative_ case not so much ...

                            > but perhaps that gives it an engaging insouciance

                            .. but a more earthy and basic need.

                            --
                            Ray
                            ==================================
                            http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                            ==================================
                            Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
                            There's none too old to learn.
                            [WELSH PROVERB]
                          • BPJ
                            ... There was no CASARE -- not even in Vulgar Latin if Meyer-Lübke is to be trusted --, and *if* it had existed I m sure it would have meant set up house,
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                              On 2012-05-04 07:45, Peter Cyrus wrote:
                              > How about "casative"?

                              There was no CASARE -- not even in Vulgar Latin if Meyer-Lübke is
                              to be trusted --, and *if* it had existed I'm sure it would have
                              meant 'set up house, start a family'.

                              Even though the meaning of the case called "apudessive"
                              in NE Caucasian languages isn't quite what we're after
                              here I never heard that cases in different languages
                              which are given the same label by linguists always have
                              the same meaning or function. A good grammar is required
                              to describe the function of any case, however labelled,
                              in the language under description. E.g. the Finnish case
                              labelled "nominative" has a rather restricted function
                              compared to the same-labelled case of (most) Indo-European
                              languages.

                              /bpj

                              >
                              > On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 AM, And Rosta<and.rosta@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >> R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
                              >>
                              >>> On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
                              >>>
                              >>>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
                              >>>> and _disseminative_?
                              >>>>
                              >>>
                              >>> _disseminative_ is well-formed.
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >> I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho
                              >> on checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
                              >>>> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
                              >>>> A, et al.
                              >>>>
                              >>>
                              >>> _dispersive_ is better.
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >> It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from _dispergere_,
                              >> but it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that English
                              >> linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_ (rather
                              >> than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively
                              >> the formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from
                              >> the participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a potential
                              >> _dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested
                              >> _dispersative_.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
                              >>> _apudessive_ ;)
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >> O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!
                              >>
                              >> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
                              >>>> _andative_ comes from?
                              >>>>
                              >>>
                              >>> ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
                              >>>
                              >>> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
                              >>> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
                              >>> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
                              >>>
                              >>
                              >> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology and
                              >> orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that
                              >> gives it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to
                              >> conform to expected standards of terminological probity.
                              >>
                              >> --And.
                              >>
                              >
                            • And Rosta
                              ... Ah, excellent observation! (Liddell Scott has to ease oneself, do one s need , whose obliquity would probably have defeated my understanding.) Now, whose
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                                R A Brown, On 04/05/2012 08:11:
                                > On 04/05/2012 00:55, And Rosta wrote:
                                >> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with
                                >> Latin phonology and orthography. _Chezative_ is
                                >> consistent with neither --
                                >
                                > Not entirely true. Certainly _ch_ and _z_ are not found in
                                > native Latin words (_ch_ did creep into the spelling of a
                                > few, e.g _pulcher_ for earlier _pulcer_) - but they are
                                > found in words borrowed from Greek.
                                >
                                > Now there was a Greek χέζω _chézō_ = "I shit". It's not
                                > exactly a great flight of imagination to think there might
                                > have been a colloquial *chezáre "to shit", which makes the
                                > _chezative_ case not so much ...

                                Ah, excellent observation! (Liddell Scott has "to ease oneself, do one's need", whose obliquity would probably have defeated my understanding.)

                                Now, whose conlang will be the first to have a *true* chezative? (/'kiyz@t@v/ ('ki:z@tIv/), I suppose.) Let us allow that it might be a mood rather than a case.

                                --And.
                              • Adam Walker
                                ... My conlang will not have a chezative in the above (or any other sense), BUT I have decided that I will borrow chezo as chezari in Carrajina and I m almost
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                                  On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 12:40 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@...> wrote:

                                  > R A Brown, On 04/05/2012 08:11:
                                  >
                                  >> On 04/05/2012 00:55, And Rosta wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with
                                  >>> Latin phonology and orthography. _Chezative_ is
                                  >>> consistent with neither --
                                  >>>
                                  >>
                                  >> Not entirely true. Certainly _ch_ and _z_ are not found in
                                  >> native Latin words (_ch_ did creep into the spelling of a
                                  >> few, e.g _pulcher_ for earlier _pulcer_) - but they are
                                  >> found in words borrowed from Greek.
                                  >>
                                  >> Now there was a Greek χέζω _chézō_ = "I shit". It's not
                                  >> exactly a great flight of imagination to think there might
                                  >> have been a colloquial *chezáre "to shit", which makes the
                                  >> _chezative_ case not so much ...
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > Ah, excellent observation! (Liddell Scott has "to ease oneself, do one's
                                  > need", whose obliquity would probably have defeated my understanding.)
                                  >
                                  > Now, whose conlang will be the first to have a *true* chezative? (/'kiyz@t@v/
                                  > ('ki:z@tIv/), I suppose.) Let us allow that it might be a mood rather
                                  > than a case.
                                  >
                                  > --And.
                                  >


                                  My conlang will not have a chezative in the above (or any other sense),
                                  BUT I have decided that I will borrow chezo as chezari in Carrajina and
                                  I'm almost pervese enough to enter it in the dictionary with the definition
                                  "to ease oneself".

                                  chezu - I poop
                                  cheza -- you doodoo
                                  chezad -- he/she does his/her business
                                  chezamus -- we go potty
                                  chezas -- you(pl) ease yourselves
                                  chezans -- they do their need

                                  Wow. those last two sound worse than just coming right out and saying it.

                                  Adam
                                • Puey McCleary
                                  Dubitative mood? Glottal thrills? Chetative easing of oneself? This has been a very strange week on the list. And the week s not over yet.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                                    Dubitative mood? Glottal thrills? Chetative easing of oneself? This has
                                    been a very strange week on the list. And the week's not over yet.
                                  • Peter Cyrus
                                    French chez and Catalan ca both come from casa , (at the) house (of).
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 4, 2012
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                                      French "chez" and Catalan "ca" both come from "casa", (at the) house (of).

                                      On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:15 PM, BPJ <bpj@...> wrote:

                                      > On 2012-05-04 07:45, Peter Cyrus wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> How about "casative"?
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      > There was no CASARE -- not even in Vulgar Latin if Meyer-Lübke is
                                      > to be trusted --, and *if* it had existed I'm sure it would have
                                      > meant 'set up house, start a family'.
                                      >
                                      > Even though the meaning of the case called "apudessive"
                                      > in NE Caucasian languages isn't quite what we're after
                                      > here I never heard that cases in different languages
                                      > which are given the same label by linguists always have
                                      > the same meaning or function. A good grammar is required
                                      > to describe the function of any case, however labelled,
                                      > in the language under description. E.g. the Finnish case
                                      > labelled "nominative" has a rather restricted function
                                      > compared to the same-labelled case of (most) Indo-European
                                      > languages.
                                      >
                                      > /bpj
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 1:55 AM, And Rosta<and.rosta@...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> R A Brown, On 02/05/2012 21:59:
                                      >>>
                                      >>> On 02/05/2012 19:09, And Rosta wrote:
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Who can come up with more suitable terms than _chezative_
                                      >>>>> and _disseminative_?
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>> _disseminative_ is well-formed.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>> I was thinking that _disseminare_ meant only 'to sow', so was inapt, tho
                                      >>> on checking I see it means also 'to strew', so is actually apt.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> I will tentatively suggest _domiciliative_ and
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>> _dispersative_, with deference in advance to RAB, BPJ, Wm
                                      >>>>> A, et al.
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>> _dispersive_ is better.
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>> It'd be better for an ordinary English adjective formed from
                                      >>> _dispergere_,
                                      >>> but it seems to me (on the basis of mere observation) firstly that
                                      >>> English
                                      >>> linguistic terminology prefers _-ative_ endings, e.g. _reversative_
                                      >>> (rather
                                      >>> than _reversive_), and secondly that Latin allows relatively productively
                                      >>> the formation of _-are_ verbs (usually with frequentative meaning?) from
                                      >>> the participle of _-ere/-ire_ verbs. Hence _dispersative_ from a
                                      >>> potential
                                      >>> _dispersare_. That, at any rate, was the thinking behind my suggested
                                      >>> _dispersative_.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> The Latin for "at the house of" is 'apud', so I guess
                                      >>>
                                      >>>> _apudessive_ ;)
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>> O excellent word! How richly rewarded now my faith in you!
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Kind of related to this: Does anybody know where the term
                                      >>>
                                      >>>> _andative_ comes from?
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>>>
                                      >>>> ..and _venitive_ - ach y fi!
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>> Presumably _andative_ and _ventive_ are Hispano-Latin
                                      >>>> hybrids; if they have gained currency then why not the
                                      >>>> Franco-Latin hybrid _chezative_ ?
                                      >>>>
                                      >>>>
                                      >>> At least _andative_ and _venitive_ are consistent with Latin phonology
                                      >>> and
                                      >>> orthography. _Chezative_ is consistent with neither -- but perhaps that
                                      >>> gives it an engaging insouciance; it wears on its sleeve its failure to
                                      >>> conform to expected standards of terminological probity.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> --And.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>
                                    • R A Brown
                                      ... I have not the slightest doubt the BPJ knows that French _chez_ and Catalan _ca_ are derived from Latin _casa_. But _casa_ simply means (simple) house,
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 5, 2012
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                                        On 04/05/2012 21:32, Peter Cyrus wrote:
                                        > French "chez" and Catalan "ca" both come from "casa", (at
                                        > the) house (of).

                                        I have not the slightest doubt the BPJ knows that French
                                        _chez_ and Catalan _ca_ are derived from Latin _casa_. But
                                        _casa_ simply means "(simple) house, cottage, hut, cabin,
                                        shed." It does *not* mean "at the house of" - that meaning
                                        is expressed in Latin by 'apud.'

                                        The derived meanings of the French and Catalan words do not
                                        even go back to Vulgar Latin, they are later, though
                                        obviously related, developments.

                                        > On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:15 PM, BPJ<bpj@...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        >
                                        >> On 2012-05-04 07:45, Peter Cyrus wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>> How about "casative"?
                                        >>>
                                        >> There was no CASARE -- not even in Vulgar Latin if
                                        >> Meyer-Lübke is to be trusted --, and *if* it had
                                        >> existed I'm sure it would have meant 'set up house,
                                        >> start a family'.

                                        Possibly - but it would almost certainly not mean "to be at
                                        someone's house/cottage/hut etc." Though in fact a verb
                                        _casare_ is found in early Latin as a variant of _cassare_ -
                                        both, it seems, being early variants of _quaesare_ "to shake."

                                        So, like _chezative_, maybe _casative_ is a mood rather than
                                        a case - the former being when one has the shits and the
                                        latter when one has the shakes. ;)

                                        >> Even though the meaning of the case called
                                        >> "apudessive" in NE Caucasian languages isn't quite what
                                        >> we're after here I never heard that cases in different
                                        >> languages which are given the same label by linguists
                                        >> always have the same meaning or function. A good
                                        >> grammar is required to describe the function of any
                                        >> case, however labelled, in the language under
                                        >> description.

                                        Amen.

                                        I can't help thinking that when it comes to naming cases in
                                        grammar, Occam razor should be applied, i.e. it's
                                        pointless inventing case names if existing ones do the job
                                        already.

                                        --
                                        Ray
                                        ==================================
                                        http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                        ==================================
                                        Frustra fit per plura quod potest
                                        fieri per pauciora.
                                        [William of Ockham]
                                      • Daniel Prohaska
                                        I can imagine the ablative CASA (with a long final a) could possibly have taken on the meaning at (someone s) place . Dan
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 6, 2012
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                                          I can imagine the ablative CASA (with a long final a) could possibly have taken on the meaning "at (someone's) place".
                                          Dan

                                          On May 5, 2012, at 11:09 AM, R A Brown wrote:

                                          > On 04/05/2012 21:32, Peter Cyrus wrote:
                                          >> French "chez" and Catalan "ca" both come from "casa", (at
                                          >> the) house (of).
                                          >
                                          > I have not the slightest doubt the BPJ knows that French
                                          > _chez_ and Catalan _ca_ are derived from Latin _casa_. But
                                          > _casa_ simply means "(simple) house, cottage, hut, cabin,
                                          > shed." It does *not* mean "at the house of" - that meaning
                                          > is expressed in Latin by 'apud.'
                                          >
                                          > The derived meanings of the French and Catalan words do not
                                          > even go back to Vulgar Latin, they are later, though
                                          > obviously related, developments.
                                          >
                                          >> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 5:15 PM, BPJ<bpj@...>
                                          >> wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >>> On 2012-05-04 07:45, Peter Cyrus wrote:
                                          >>>
                                          >>>> How about "casative"?
                                          >>>>
                                          >>> There was no CASARE -- not even in Vulgar Latin if
                                          >>> Meyer-Lübke is to be trusted --, and *if* it had
                                          >>> existed I'm sure it would have meant 'set up house,
                                          >>> start a family'.
                                          >
                                          > Possibly - but it would almost certainly not mean "to be at
                                          > someone's house/cottage/hut etc." Though in fact a verb
                                          > _casare_ is found in early Latin as a variant of _cassare_ -
                                          > both, it seems, being early variants of _quaesare_ "to shake."
                                          >
                                          > So, like _chezative_, maybe _casative_ is a mood rather than
                                          > a case - the former being when one has the shits and the
                                          > latter when one has the shakes. ;)
                                          >
                                          >>> Even though the meaning of the case called
                                          >>> "apudessive" in NE Caucasian languages isn't quite what
                                          >>> we're after here I never heard that cases in different
                                          >>> languages which are given the same label by linguists
                                          >>> always have the same meaning or function. A good
                                          >>> grammar is required to describe the function of any
                                          >>> case, however labelled, in the language under
                                          >>> description.
                                          >
                                          > Amen.
                                          >
                                          > I can't help thinking that when it comes to naming cases in
                                          > grammar, Occam razor should be applied, i.e. it's
                                          > pointless inventing case names if existing ones do the job
                                          > already.
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Ray
                                          > ==================================
                                          > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                          > ==================================
                                          > Frustra fit per plura quod potest
                                          > fieri per pauciora.
                                          > [William of Ockham]
                                        • R A Brown
                                          ... Not in Classical Latin, it couldn t. The _locative_ did have such a meaning g, but that case was found only with place names and the words _domi_ at home
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 6, 2012
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                                            On 06/05/2012 14:38, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
                                            > I can imagine the ablative CASA (with a long final a)
                                            > could possibly have taken on the meaning "at (someone's)
                                            > place". Dan

                                            Not in Classical Latin, it couldn't.

                                            The _locative_ did have such a meaning g, but that case was
                                            found only with place names and the words _domi_ "at home"
                                            and _ruri_ "in the country(side)". There is no record of
                                            its being used with _casa_.

                                            As for the ablative, it would need a preposition for the
                                            meaning you suggest, e.g. in mea casa.

                                            Nor, of course, could this be so in Vulgar Latin as neither
                                            the locative or the ablative survived there.

                                            The Latin preposition _apud_ BTW did survive into old French
                                            as _o_, _od_ or _ot_ according to dialect and, apparently,
                                            survived in some regional patois until the 15th century; but
                                            AIUI it meant "with" rather than "at the house of."

                                            --
                                            Ray
                                            ==================================
                                            http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                                            ==================================
                                            Frustra fit per plura quod potest
                                            fieri per pauciora.
                                            [William of Ockham]
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