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Re: Help in constructing new language

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  • MorphemeAddict
    All of Europe uses one basic writing system, yet nobody considers all the various languages of Europe as mere dialects of some one language. Writing the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 1, 2012
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      All of Europe uses one basic writing system, yet nobody considers all the
      various languages of Europe as mere dialects of some one language. Writing
      the languages of India in one common script might have some advantages, but
      the languages are still too distinct and different to be considered just
      one language, except especially Hindi and Urdu, which are rather close.

      stevo

      On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Peter Cyrus <pcyrus@...> wrote:

      > I know that many of the scheduled languages of India use different
      > scripts, and that Indians consider a unique script to be evidence of a
      > "real" language, in the sense that languages that don't have their own
      > script are considered "only dialects".
      >
      > But I don't know how different the spoken languages are from each
      > other. Can a Bengali speaker understand spoken Hindi, even if he
      > can't read Devanagari?
      >
      > I ask because your father started with a new script, as if the problem
      > weren't a common language, but a common script. If that were the
      > case, you could write all the languages of India with Devanagari, or
      > even the Latin (or Shwa) scripts.
      >
      > How much is the language project linked to the script?
      >
      > On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Vishvanath Kulkarni
      > <vishvanath.kulkarni@...> wrote:
      > > Hello All,
      > >
      > > Here's wishing all of you a very happy and prosperous new year !I have
      > > recently joined this group. My father was a teacher in India. He
      > > worked to develop a new language and script - called "Bharti". I would
      > > like to brief you about it.
      > >
      > > Background:
      > >
      > > Hindi was to be the sole national language for India. However, there
      > > was a resistance from Non Hindi speaking states (particularly south
      > > Indian states) for Hindi being made the only national language. Hence
      > > a duel language policy was adopted with both Hindi as well as English
      > > to be used for government work.
      > >
      > > The opposition was based on the feeling of bias in favour of Hindi
      > > Speaking people if we make Hindi as the only language for Govt work.
      > > It would be easy for Hindi speaking people where as Non Hindi speaking
      > > are required to learn additional language and they may not be
      > > competitive for govt. jobs when they compete with Hindi mother tongue
      > > people.
      > >
      > > In view of this, my father (who was a teacher as well as Gandhian)
      > > thought of developing a new script and language for all office work to
      > > be used by all Indians This will be new to all . Hence, there would
      > > not be any opposition by anybody. Also this was to be developed based
      > > on Indian languages . Hence the name Bharati.
      > > He was of the opinion that this will be easier to learn than to learn
      > > English. He was also opposed to maintain Engilsh as the language for
      > > all instead of any Indian Language.
      > > This was similar to concept of common European Language “ESPERANTO”
      > >
      > >
      > > Work my father had done (all only hand written) after his retirement:
      > >
      > > 1. Study scripts of all Indian Languages and develop a new script “
      > > BHARATI “. Improvements were done to make the script print /type
      > > friendly
      > >
      > > 2. He developed the grammer based on Indian languages with some
      > > modifications to make things easier to understand and easier to teach
      > >
      > > 3. He conducted training session in the village high school to
      > > experiment as to how easy/difficult is this to understand.
      > > He found that all students could easily pick up the script.
      > > All the thrust was to make the new language/script easy to learn and
      > > still will be Indian. (Even South Indian languages have a lot common
      > > to Sanskrit -- mother of Indian Languages)
      > >
      > > 4. He prepared a dictionary for the words of the new language—(with
      > > English as well as Marathi)
      > >
      > >
      > > Help I need now:
      > >
      > > Unfortunately, the voluminous work has not been printed. My father is
      > > no more. (He expired in 2006)
      > > The hand written work is available with me. I do not know how to get
      > > the same printed ( as the scipt is different) and whether some body
      > > would be interested in understanding the same and developing further.
      > > At the same time I feel the exhaustive work done by my father should
      > > be preserved. Hence I would like to get the same printed/saved as
      > > soft copy) as the handwritten work will get spoilt after some period.
      > >
      > > I also would like to know whether anybody would be interested in going
      > > into the details.
      > > I request you to send this message through your associations and also
      > > let me know if anybody would be interested or help me.
      > >
      > >
      > > Thanks & Regards,
      > >
      > > V.M.Kulkarni
      >
    • Logan Kearsley
      ... Yes, but that has little to do with how a non-European culture might classify things. ... From an objective, linguistics-oriented, point of view, that s
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 1, 2012
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        On 1 January 2012 01:53, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@...> wrote:
        > All of Europe uses one basic writing system, yet nobody considers all the
        > various languages of Europe as mere dialects of some one language.

        Yes, but that has little to do with how a non-European culture might
        classify things.

        > the languages [of India] are still too distinct and different to be considered just
        > one language, except especially Hindi and Urdu, which are rather close.

        From an objective, linguistics-oriented, point of view, that's true.
        But if the linguistically-naive speakers of those languages are of the
        opinion that a language "doesn't count" unless it does have it's own
        script, stating that that it does is not going to change that
        sociological reality.
        So, it is entirely plausible that using a different script may give a
        language sufficient prestige to promote its adoption to overcome the
        slight additional difficulty of learning a new writing system.

        Apart from the realm of auxlanging, that's kind of a neat idea to keep
        in mind for doing language-contact stuff in diachronic conlanging.

        -l.
      • Vishvanath Kulkarni
        Thanks very much for quick response and sharing your thoughts on this topic. It has been a great help indeed. V.M.Kulkarni
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 5, 2012
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          Thanks very much for quick response and sharing your thoughts on this
          topic. It has been a great help indeed.

          V.M.Kulkarni

          On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 2:23 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@...> wrote:

          > All of Europe uses one basic writing system, yet nobody considers all the
          > various languages of Europe as mere dialects of some one language. Writing
          > the languages of India in one common script might have some advantages, but
          > the languages are still too distinct and different to be considered just
          > one language, except especially Hindi and Urdu, which are rather close.
          >
          > stevo
          >
          > On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Peter Cyrus <pcyrus@...> wrote:
          >
          > > I know that many of the scheduled languages of India use different
          > > scripts, and that Indians consider a unique script to be evidence of a
          > > "real" language, in the sense that languages that don't have their own
          > > script are considered "only dialects".
          > >
          > > But I don't know how different the spoken languages are from each
          > > other. Can a Bengali speaker understand spoken Hindi, even if he
          > > can't read Devanagari?
          > >
          > > I ask because your father started with a new script, as if the problem
          > > weren't a common language, but a common script. If that were the
          > > case, you could write all the languages of India with Devanagari, or
          > > even the Latin (or Shwa) scripts.
          > >
          > > How much is the language project linked to the script?
          > >
          > > On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Vishvanath Kulkarni
          > > <vishvanath.kulkarni@...> wrote:
          > > > Hello All,
          > > >
          > > > Here's wishing all of you a very happy and prosperous new year !I have
          > > > recently joined this group. My father was a teacher in India. He
          > > > worked to develop a new language and script - called "Bharti". I would
          > > > like to brief you about it.
          > > >
          > > > Background:
          > > >
          > > > Hindi was to be the sole national language for India. However, there
          > > > was a resistance from Non Hindi speaking states (particularly south
          > > > Indian states) for Hindi being made the only national language. Hence
          > > > a duel language policy was adopted with both Hindi as well as English
          > > > to be used for government work.
          > > >
          > > > The opposition was based on the feeling of bias in favour of Hindi
          > > > Speaking people if we make Hindi as the only language for Govt work.
          > > > It would be easy for Hindi speaking people where as Non Hindi speaking
          > > > are required to learn additional language and they may not be
          > > > competitive for govt. jobs when they compete with Hindi mother tongue
          > > > people.
          > > >
          > > > In view of this, my father (who was a teacher as well as Gandhian)
          > > > thought of developing a new script and language for all office work to
          > > > be used by all Indians This will be new to all . Hence, there would
          > > > not be any opposition by anybody. Also this was to be developed based
          > > > on Indian languages . Hence the name Bharati.
          > > > He was of the opinion that this will be easier to learn than to learn
          > > > English. He was also opposed to maintain Engilsh as the language for
          > > > all instead of any Indian Language.
          > > > This was similar to concept of common European Language “ESPERANTO”
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Work my father had done (all only hand written) after his retirement:
          > > >
          > > > 1. Study scripts of all Indian Languages and develop a new script “
          > > > BHARATI “. Improvements were done to make the script print /type
          > > > friendly
          > > >
          > > > 2. He developed the grammer based on Indian languages with some
          > > > modifications to make things easier to understand and easier to teach
          > > >
          > > > 3. He conducted training session in the village high school to
          > > > experiment as to how easy/difficult is this to understand.
          > > > He found that all students could easily pick up the script.
          > > > All the thrust was to make the new language/script easy to learn and
          > > > still will be Indian. (Even South Indian languages have a lot common
          > > > to Sanskrit -- mother of Indian Languages)
          > > >
          > > > 4. He prepared a dictionary for the words of the new language—(with
          > > > English as well as Marathi)
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Help I need now:
          > > >
          > > > Unfortunately, the voluminous work has not been printed. My father is
          > > > no more. (He expired in 2006)
          > > > The hand written work is available with me. I do not know how to get
          > > > the same printed ( as the scipt is different) and whether some body
          > > > would be interested in understanding the same and developing further.
          > > > At the same time I feel the exhaustive work done by my father should
          > > > be preserved. Hence I would like to get the same printed/saved as
          > > > soft copy) as the handwritten work will get spoilt after some period.
          > > >
          > > > I also would like to know whether anybody would be interested in going
          > > > into the details.
          > > > I request you to send this message through your associations and also
          > > > let me know if anybody would be interested or help me.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks & Regards,
          > > >
          > > > V.M.Kulkarni
          > >
          >
        • Vishvanath Kulkarni
          Thanks very much for quick response and sharing your thoughts on this topic. It has been a great help indeed. As regards your querries, some languages in India
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 5, 2012
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            Thanks very much for quick response and sharing your thoughts on this
            topic. It has been a great help indeed.

            As regards your querries, some languages in India are close to each other.
            Some are very different. Though the Bengali script is slightly different
            than Devnagari, the Bengali speaker is normally able to understand spoken
            Hindi and Devnagari script. Assam amd noth eastern states have sciipts and
            languages nearer to Bengali
            India has more than 26 languages.
            The languages in northern India ( and Maharashtra , Gujrat) are derived
            from sanskrit.Their languages have similarity. Punjab has a totally
            different script (Gurumukhi). However the Punjabi language is very similar
            to Hindi. Most Punjabis easily understand the Hindi language as well as
            Devnagari script.
            The scripts and langauges of the four souther states (Tamilnadu, Kerala,
            Karnataka. Andhra)are very different than Hindi Langauge and Devnagari
            script). Though there are many sanskrit words in these langauges also, the
            non educated mases in these area do not understand Hindi/Devnagari easily.
            In these four states also, there is similarity in script and language
            between malyali (from Kerala state) and Tamili ( Tamilnadu state).
            The scripts in Karnataka (Kannada) and Andhra Pradesh (telugu) have some
            similarity. the languages are different.
            I myself have littele idea as to whether the Udia language and script (in
            the state of Orisa) resembles more to Bengali or a mixture of Bengali and
            Telugu). The language is more close to Bengali.

            Coming to the importance of script to my Father's project, the script was
            important as to be acceptable to all states as common script.(AS I
            indicated in the in itial write up, the souhtern states haev opposition to
            Devnagari script) However, it is not a must. You can always prepare the
            grammer and dictionary in teh new language and use Devnagari script.

            As my father was a maharahstrian (mother tongue Marathi), the dictionary
            rpepared by him , he has indicated the words in the new language in both
            the new script as well as Devnagari script.

            I do not know how to prepare the font of the new script for typing on the
            computer. I am trying to find out
            Howver, it is a good idea to get printed the grammer and language using
            latin and Devnagari script as a first step.
            Regards,
            V.M.Kulkarni
            0


            On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 1:24 AM, Peter Cyrus <pcyrus@...> wrote:

            > I know that many of the scheduled languages of India use different
            > scripts, and that Indians consider a unique script to be evidence of a
            > "real" language, in the sense that languages that don't have their own
            > script are considered "only dialects".
            >
            > But I don't know how different the spoken languages are from each
            > other. Can a Bengali speaker understand spoken Hindi, even if he
            > can't read Devanagari?
            >
            > I ask because your father started with a new script, as if the problem
            > weren't a common language, but a common script. If that were the
            > case, you could write all the languages of India with Devanagari, or
            > even the Latin (or Shwa) scripts.
            >
            > How much is the language project linked to the script?
            >
            > On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 8:21 PM, Vishvanath Kulkarni
            > <vishvanath.kulkarni@...> wrote:
            > > Hello All,
            > >
            > > Here's wishing all of you a very happy and prosperous new year !I have
            > > recently joined this group. My father was a teacher in India. He
            > > worked to develop a new language and script - called "Bharti". I would
            > > like to brief you about it.
            > >
            > > Background:
            > >
            > > Hindi was to be the sole national language for India. However, there
            > > was a resistance from Non Hindi speaking states (particularly south
            > > Indian states) for Hindi being made the only national language. Hence
            > > a duel language policy was adopted with both Hindi as well as English
            > > to be used for government work.
            > >
            > > The opposition was based on the feeling of bias in favour of Hindi
            > > Speaking people if we make Hindi as the only language for Govt work.
            > > It would be easy for Hindi speaking people where as Non Hindi speaking
            > > are required to learn additional language and they may not be
            > > competitive for govt. jobs when they compete with Hindi mother tongue
            > > people.
            > >
            > > In view of this, my father (who was a teacher as well as Gandhian)
            > > thought of developing a new script and language for all office work to
            > > be used by all Indians This will be new to all . Hence, there would
            > > not be any opposition by anybody. Also this was to be developed based
            > > on Indian languages . Hence the name Bharati.
            > > He was of the opinion that this will be easier to learn than to learn
            > > English. He was also opposed to maintain Engilsh as the language for
            > > all instead of any Indian Language.
            > > This was similar to concept of common European Language “ESPERANTO”
            > >
            > >
            > > Work my father had done (all only hand written) after his retirement:
            > >
            > > 1. Study scripts of all Indian Languages and develop a new script “
            > > BHARATI “. Improvements were done to make the script print /type
            > > friendly
            > >
            > > 2. He developed the grammer based on Indian languages with some
            > > modifications to make things easier to understand and easier to teach
            > >
            > > 3. He conducted training session in the village high school to
            > > experiment as to how easy/difficult is this to understand.
            > > He found that all students could easily pick up the script.
            > > All the thrust was to make the new language/script easy to learn and
            > > still will be Indian. (Even South Indian languages have a lot common
            > > to Sanskrit -- mother of Indian Languages)
            > >
            > > 4. He prepared a dictionary for the words of the new language—(with
            > > English as well as Marathi)
            > >
            > >
            > > Help I need now:
            > >
            > > Unfortunately, the voluminous work has not been printed. My father is
            > > no more. (He expired in 2006)
            > > The hand written work is available with me. I do not know how to get
            > > the same printed ( as the scipt is different) and whether some body
            > > would be interested in understanding the same and developing further.
            > > At the same time I feel the exhaustive work done by my father should
            > > be preserved. Hence I would like to get the same printed/saved as
            > > soft copy) as the handwritten work will get spoilt after some period.
            > >
            > > I also would like to know whether anybody would be interested in going
            > > into the details.
            > > I request you to send this message through your associations and also
            > > let me know if anybody would be interested or help me.
            > >
            > >
            > > Thanks & Regards,
            > >
            > > V.M.Kulkarni
            >
          • Vishvanath Kulkarni
            Dear Mr. Padriac Brown, Thanks very much for quick response and sharing your thoughts on this topic. It has been a great help indeed. Regards, V.M.Kulkarni
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 5, 2012
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              Dear Mr. Padriac Brown,
              Thanks very much for quick response and sharing your thoughts on this
              topic. It has been a great help indeed.
              Regards,
              V.M.Kulkarni


              On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:

              > Namaste Gents:
              >
              > However interesting Bharti might be as a conlang, I'm afraid that the
              > present discussion is entirely centered on auxlang advocacy. While I
              > doubt you'd get many flames for it here (or even in the Other List),
              > Conlang isn't the apporpriate venue for this thread. Auxlang is really
              > the most appropriate list for that kind of discussion. Vishvanath, if you'd
              > like to describe and discuss your father's work here on Conlang, I know
              > *that* discussion would be most welcome. I don't think we've seen even
              > one Indian conlang hereabouts, leastways that I'm aware of!
              >
              > As for the question of preserving his work in printing, I think that is a
              > commendable idea. Two methods present themselves immediately: creating a
              > website to detail the language, and printing the grammar and description
              > in a book. With a script that is apparently different from the usual
              > Indian writing systems, it might be a lot of work, but I think technically
              > possible to turn your father's letterforms into a font. You could then
              > simply create a website with the grammar and lexicon.
              >
              > Another possibility, depending on the manuscript, is simply to type the
              > description and grammar on paper, neatly transcribe the devised letters
              > into the spaces left on the paper, and then scan the whole thing in to a
              > PDF file. Easily transmitted, viewed online and printed by anyone
              > interested. The PDF could also be used to submit to a self-publishing firm
              > (like lulu.com), from which any interested person could purchase a printed
              > copy of the book.
              >
              > Regards and good luck with your project!
              >
              > Padraic
              >
              > --- On Sat, 12/31/11, harvinder negi <negi.harvinder@...> wrote:
              >
              > > From: harvinder negi <negi.harvinder@...>
              > > Subject: Re: [CONLANG] Help in constructing new language
              > > To: CONLANG@...
              > > Date: Saturday, December 31, 2011, 11:21 PM
              > > seems grand ideas. my reservations is
              > > how can this be called a new script
              > > and a language since language is built by its users, if no
              > > one uses it at
              > > present then how is it going to develop and when we have
              > > already so many
              > > languages and scripts to deal with why should we accept
              > > this new one.
              > > officially, hindi along side english is used in india, with
              > > regional
              > > languages also in use.
              > > your idea sounds new. lets see what the new language
              > > has...
              > >
              > > On 1 January 2012 00:51, Vishvanath Kulkarni
              > > <vishvanath.kulkarni@...>wrote:
              > >
              > > > Hello All,
              > > >
              > > > Here's wishing all of you a very happy and prosperous
              > > new year !I have
              > > > recently joined this group. My father was a teacher in
              > > India. He
              > > > worked to develop a new language and script - called
              > > "Bharti". I would
              > > > like to brief you about it.
              > > >
              > > > Background:
              > > >
              > > > Hindi was to be the sole national language for India.
              > > However, there
              > > > was a resistance from Non Hindi speaking states
              > > (particularly south
              > > > Indian states) for Hindi being made the only national
              > > language. Hence
              > > > a duel language policy was adopted with both Hindi as
              > > well as English
              > > > to be used for government work.
              > > >
              > > > The opposition was based on the feeling of bias in
              > > favour of Hindi
              > > > Speaking people if we make Hindi as the only language
              > > for Govt work.
              > > > It would be easy for Hindi speaking people where as
              > > Non Hindi speaking
              > > > are required to learn additional language and they may
              > > not be
              > > > competitive for govt. jobs when they compete with
              > > Hindi mother tongue
              > > > people.
              > > >
              > > > In view of this, my father (who was a teacher as
              > > well as Gandhian)
              > > > thought of developing a new script and language for
              > > all office work to
              > > > be used by all Indians This will be new to all .
              > > Hence, there would
              > > > not be any opposition by anybody. Also this was to be
              > > developed based
              > > > on Indian languages . Hence the name Bharati.
              > > > He was of the opinion that this will be easier to
              > > learn than to learn
              > > > English. He was also opposed to maintain Engilsh as
              > > the language for
              > > > all instead of any Indian Language.
              > > > This was similar to concept of common European
              > > Language “ESPERANTO”
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Work my father had done (all only hand written) after
              > > his retirement:
              > > >
              > > > 1. Study scripts of all Indian Languages and develop a
              > > new script “
              > > > BHARATI “. Improvements were done to make the script
              > > print /type
              > > > friendly
              > > >
              > > > 2. He developed the grammer based on Indian languages
              > > with some
              > > > modifications to make things easier to understand and
              > > easier to teach
              > > >
              > > > 3. He conducted training session in the village high
              > > school to
              > > > experiment as to how easy/difficult is this to
              > > understand.
              > > > He found that all students could easily pick up the
              > > script.
              > > > All the thrust was to make the new language/script
              > > easy to learn and
              > > > still will be Indian. (Even South Indian languages
              > > have a lot common
              > > > to Sanskrit -- mother of Indian Languages)
              > > >
              > > > 4. He prepared a dictionary for the words of the new
              > > language—(with
              > > > English as well as Marathi)
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Help I need now:
              > > >
              > > > Unfortunately, the voluminous work has not been
              > > printed. My father is
              > > > no more. (He expired in 2006)
              > > > The hand written work is available with me. I do not
              > > know how to get
              > > > the same printed ( as the scipt is different) and
              > > whether some body
              > > > would be interested in understanding the same and
              > > developing further.
              > > > At the same time I feel the exhaustive work done by my
              > > father should
              > > > be preserved. Hence I would like
              > > to get the same printed/saved as
              > > > soft copy) as the handwritten work will get spoilt
              > > after some period.
              > > >
              > > > I also would like to know whether anybody would be
              > > interested in going
              > > > into the details.
              > > > I request you to send this message through your
              > > associations and also
              > > > let me know if anybody would be interested or help
              > > me.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Thanks & Regards,
              > > >
              > > > V.M.Kulkarni
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --
              > > Thanking you and regards.
              > >
              >
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