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Re: Missing archives?

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  • And Rosta
    ... I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily on Conlang List. ... I am certain that
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
      R A Brown, On 01/06/2011 07:10:
      > In particular, I would like to find the email in which Claudio Gnoli proposed his triangle.

      I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily on Conlang List.

      > BTW it is clear that the term _conlang_ was already established by 1991. Does anyone know when the term first made its appearance or who coined it?

      I am certain that the term derives from (a -- perhaps unreflective -- reanalysis of) the name of the list, so either it would be the first use in the archives or, if it seems that everybody is using the term from the outset, then it must date from the brief period before the listservization of the list. Given the name of the list, it is only a short and natural step to apply the list name to the concept 'conlang'.

      Are you planning to also track down the first use of 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang list too, unless in that instance too the listname created the term.

      --And.
    • taliesin the storyteller
      ... I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december 2002 but I didn t have backups... Would like to have m back. Also, I think there was a time during
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
        On 2011-06-01 08:10, R A Brown wrote:
        > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week of
        > September 1998 is archived?

        I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december 2002 but I
        didn't have backups... Would like to have'm back.

        Also, I think there was a time during the transition from Diku to Brown
        that the list was basically offline.


        t.
      • R A Brown
        ... It s not on his current webpages and it s not in my copy of Liva which dates from September 1997. I still have a hazy memory of an email. ... OK - that
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
          On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
          > R A Brown, On 01/06/2011 07:10:
          >> In particular, I would like to find the email in which
          >> Claudio Gnoli proposed his triangle.
          >
          > I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might
          > have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily
          > on Conlang List.

          It's not on his current webpages and it's not in my copy of
          Liva which dates from September 1997. I still have a hazy
          memory of an email.

          >> BTW it is clear that the term _conlang_ was already
          >> established by 1991. Does anyone know when the term
          >> first made its appearance or who coined it?
          >
          > I am certain that the term derives from (a -- perhaps
          > unreflective -- reanalysis of) the name of the list, so
          > either it would be the first use in the archives or, if
          > it seems that everybody is using the term from the
          > outset, then it must date from the brief period before
          > the listservization of the list. Given the name of the
          > list, it is only a short and natural step to apply the
          > list name to the concept 'conlang'.

          OK - that makes sense. So, basically, the adoption of the
          term 'conlang' by the list itself that has made the term
          canonical.

          > Are you planning to also track down the first use of
          > 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
          > list too, unless in that instance too the listname
          > created the term.

          Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get
          things as accurately as possible. I guess it was coined on
          the Conlang list before the "great sundering." Hopefully,
          the name will occur in those early archives.

          I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of
          _artlang_ and see if it was from "art language" or more
          specifically Tolkien's "art-language" (or even "artistic
          language", though I'm sure that is mistaken). But I suspect
          it dates from the "missing years." :(
          -------------------------------------------------

          On 01/06/2011 09:54, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
          > On 2011-06-01 08:10, R A Brown wrote:
          >> Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till
          >> the 2nd week of September 1998 is archived?
          >
          > I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december
          > 2002 but I didn't have backups... Would like to have'm
          > back.
          >
          > Also, I think there was a time during the transition from
          > Diku to Brown that the list was basically offline.

          I don't recall an actual break in the list at the time - but
          I do recall some problem about the archives.

          Did nobody archive any conlang correspondence during those
          "missing years"?

          --
          Ray
          ==================================
          http://www.carolandray.plus.com
          ==================================
          Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
          There's none too old to learn.
          [WELSH PROVERB]
        • Adam Walker
          I have some archives from the 90s, but they are on diskette. If I can find a machine...
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
            I have some archives from the 90s, but they are on diskette. If I can
            find a machine...

            On 6/1/11, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
            > On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
            >> R A Brown, On 01/06/2011 07:10:
            >>> In particular, I would like to find the email in which
            >>> Claudio Gnoli proposed his triangle.
            >>
            >> I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might
            >> have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily
            >> on Conlang List.
            >
            > It's not on his current webpages and it's not in my copy of
            > Liva which dates from September 1997. I still have a hazy
            > memory of an email.
            >
            >>> BTW it is clear that the term _conlang_ was already
            >>> established by 1991. Does anyone know when the term
            >>> first made its appearance or who coined it?
            >>
            >> I am certain that the term derives from (a -- perhaps
            >> unreflective -- reanalysis of) the name of the list, so
            >> either it would be the first use in the archives or, if
            >> it seems that everybody is using the term from the
            >> outset, then it must date from the brief period before
            >> the listservization of the list. Given the name of the
            >> list, it is only a short and natural step to apply the
            >> list name to the concept 'conlang'.
            >
            > OK - that makes sense. So, basically, the adoption of the
            > term 'conlang' by the list itself that has made the term
            > canonical.
            >
            >> Are you planning to also track down the first use of
            >> 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
            >> list too, unless in that instance too the listname
            >> created the term.
            >
            > Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get
            > things as accurately as possible. I guess it was coined on
            > the Conlang list before the "great sundering." Hopefully,
            > the name will occur in those early archives.
            >
            > I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of
            > _artlang_ and see if it was from "art language" or more
            > specifically Tolkien's "art-language" (or even "artistic
            > language", though I'm sure that is mistaken). But I suspect
            > it dates from the "missing years." :(
            > -------------------------------------------------
            >
            > On 01/06/2011 09:54, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
            > > On 2011-06-01 08:10, R A Brown wrote:
            > >> Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till
            > >> the 2nd week of September 1998 is archived?
            > >
            > > I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december
            > > 2002 but I didn't have backups... Would like to have'm
            > > back.
            > >
            > > Also, I think there was a time during the transition from
            > > Diku to Brown that the list was basically offline.
            >
            > I don't recall an actual break in the list at the time - but
            > I do recall some problem about the archives.
            >
            > Did nobody archive any conlang correspondence during those
            > "missing years"?
            >
            > --
            > Ray
            > ==================================
            > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
            > ==================================
            > Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
            > There's none too old to learn.
            > [WELSH PROVERB]
            >
          • Jim Henry
            ... I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still have them
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
              On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:10 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:

              > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week of
              > September 1998 is archived?

              I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that
              period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still
              have them offline somewhere.

              --
              Jim Henry
              http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
            • Jim Henry
              ... Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100 From: Lars Henrik Mathiesen To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: conlang vs. world language projects. I
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
                On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:49 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
                > On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
                >> Are you planning to also track down the first use of
                >> 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
                >> list too, unless in that instance too the listname
                >> created the term.

                > Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get things as accurately
                > as possible. I guess it was coined on the Conlang list before the "great
                > sundering." Hopefully, the name will occur in those early archives.

                The earliest use I see occurs in this mail:

                >>>
                Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100
                From: Lars Henrik Mathiesen <thorinn@...>
                To: conlang@...
                Subject: conlang vs. world language projects.

                I am well aware that there are others on this list whose interests are
                mainly in IALs, and for whom discussions of artlangs and research
                langs may be unwelcome distractions. (I sometimes get the impression
                that they even feel them to be deliberate obstructions.) Perhaps it is
                time to create an auxlang list?
                <<<

                > I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of _artlang_ and see if
                > it was from "art language" or more specifically Tolkien's "art-language" (or
                > even "artistic language", though I'm sure that is mistaken).  But I suspect
                > it dates from the "missing years."  :(

                It's attested in a message on Halloween 1992 by John Chalmers. He
                seems to use the term as though his readers already know it.

                > Did nobody archive any conlang correspondence during those "missing years"?

                I did, but not systematically or for very long; there are a few
                threads from mid-1996 on my conlang website.

                --
                Jim Henry
                http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
              • Amanda Babcock Furrow
                ... I have a copy of Cowan s archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but missing the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may be
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
                  On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 10:34:22AM -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
                  > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:10 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week of
                  > > September 1998 is archived?
                  >
                  > I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that
                  > period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still
                  > have them offline somewhere.

                  I have a copy of Cowan's archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but missing
                  the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may be
                  accesible at http://web.archive.org/web/20030308161722/http://ri.xu.org/conlang/ .
                  The 1995-1997 portion seems to be available at
                  http://web.archive.org/web/20060210220946/http://mercury.ccil.org/~cowan/conlang/
                  (also has dead links to 1991-1994; use the above link for those).

                  I didn't test every link on those pages.

                  I myself wonder where my own archives pre-1998 ended up. Surely I was already
                  saving everything...

                  tylakèhlpë'fö,
                  Amanda
                • Amanda Babcock Furrow
                  ... Oh... or, as the original poster mentioned, at http://www.glossopoeia.org/conlang/ :) I guess Rick Harrison moved from ri.xu.org to glossopoeia.org. ...
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
                    On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 11:10:02AM -0400, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
                    >
                    > I have a copy of Cowan's archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but missing
                    > the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may be
                    > accesible at http://web.archive.org/web/20030308161722/http://ri.xu.org/conlang/ .

                    Oh... or, as the original poster mentioned, at http://www.glossopoeia.org/conlang/ :)
                    I guess Rick Harrison moved from ri.xu.org to glossopoeia.org.

                    > The 1995-1997 portion seems to be available at
                    > http://web.archive.org/web/20060210220946/http://mercury.ccil.org/~cowan/conlang/

                    This part is still helpful, I hope :)

                    tylakèhlpë'fö,
                    Amanda
                  • Ray Brown
                    Warning: reply-to is not Conlang! I m visiting family at the moment and having to use SquirrelMail which doesn t seem to allow me change it. ... Yep - I had
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
                      Warning: reply-to is not Conlang! I'm visiting family at the moment and
                      having to use SquirrelMail which doesn't seem to allow me change it.

                      > On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 10:34:22AM -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
                      >> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:10 AM, R A Brown <ray@...>
                      >> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week
                      >> of
                      >> > September 1998 is archived?
                      >>
                      >> I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that
                      >> period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still
                      >> have them offline somewhere.
                      >
                      > I have a copy of Cowan's archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but
                      > missing
                      > the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may
                      > be
                      > accesible at
                      > http://web.archive.org/web/20030308161722/http://ri.xu.org/conlang/ .
                      > The 1995-1997 portion seems to be available at

                      Yep - I had found that one, but ...

                      > http://web.archive.org/web/20060210220946/http://mercury.ccil.org/~cowan/conlang/
                      > (also has dead links to 1991-1994; use the above link for those).

                      I hadn't found that on - thanks.

                      > I didn't test every link on those pages.

                      I'll test them later today.

                      Ray.
                    • Ray Brown
                      Same warning about the reply-to as on my reply to Amanda s post. ... That uses both _artlang_ and _auxlang_ - interesting. I believe 1992 was the second year
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 2, 2011
                        Same warning about the reply-to as on my reply to Amanda's post.

                        > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:49 AM, R A Brown <ray@...>
                        > wrote:
                        >> On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
                        >>> Are you planning to also track down the first use of
                        >>> 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
                        >>> list too, unless in that instance too the listname
                        >>> created the term.
                        >
                        >> Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get things as
                        >> accurately
                        >> as possible. I guess it was coined on the Conlang list before the "great
                        >> sundering." Hopefully, the name will occur in those early archives.
                        >
                        > The earliest use I see occurs in this mail:
                        >
                        >>>>
                        > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100
                        > From: Lars Henrik Mathiesen <thorinn@...>
                        > To: conlang@...
                        > Subject: conlang vs. world language projects.
                        >
                        > I am well aware that there are others on this list whose interests are
                        > mainly in IALs, and for whom discussions of artlangs and research
                        > langs may be unwelcome distractions. (I sometimes get the impression
                        > that they even feel them to be deliberate obstructions.) Perhaps it is
                        > time to create an auxlang list?
                        > <<<

                        That uses both _artlang_ and _auxlang_ - interesting. I believe 1992 was
                        the second year of the list's existence, so the terms obviously appeared
                        very early on. I guess "research langs" are roughly our _engelangs_. It's
                        interesting to see that tripartite division at this early date.

                        Also I had always understood that auxlang was set because other conlangers
                        didn't like auxlangers quarrels and wanted them to take them elsewhere;
                        but Lars' letter shows that, in case at least, it was auxlangers who were
                        moved to start a separate list because discussions on artlangs and
                        "research langs" were getting in the way of the serious matter of a world
                        language :)

                        >> I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of _artlang_ and see
                        >> if
                        >> it was from "art language" or more specifically Tolkien's "art-language"
                        >> (or
                        >> even "artistic language", though I'm sure that is mistaken).  But I
                        >> suspect
                        >> it dates from the "missing years."  :(
                        >
                        > It's attested in a message on Halloween 1992 by John Chalmers. He
                        > seems to use the term as though his readers already know it.
                        >

                        A few days before Lars' letter.

                        Ray.
                      • R A Brown
                        On 02/06/2011 08:07, Ray Brown wrote: {snip] ... [snip] ... I ve been looking at these old archive in the last few - they bring back memories. This morning I
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 5, 2011
                          On 02/06/2011 08:07, Ray Brown wrote:
                          {snip]
                          >> The earliest use [of the term auxlang'] I see occurs in
                          >> this mail:
                          >>
                          >>>>>
                          >> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100 From: Lars Henrik
                          >> Mathiesen<thorinn@...> To: conlang@...
                          >> Subject: conlang vs. world language projects.
                          >>
                          >> I am well aware that there are others on this list
                          >> whose interests are mainly in IALs, and for whom
                          >> discussions of artlangs and research langs may be
                          >> unwelcome distractions. (I sometimes get the
                          >> impression that they even feel them to be deliberate
                          >> obstructions.) Perhaps it is time to create an auxlang
                          >> list? <<<
                          [snip]
                          >
                          > Also I had always understood that auxlang was set because
                          > other conlangers didn't like auxlangers quarrels and
                          > wanted them to take them elsewhere; but Lars' letter
                          > shows that, in case at least, it was auxlangers who were
                          > moved to start a separate list because discussions on
                          > artlangs and "research langs" were getting in the way of
                          > the serious matter of a world language :)

                          I've been looking at these old archive in the last few -
                          they bring back memories. This morning I was reading the
                          early emails on Folkspaak :)

                          But I ought to remove the smiley above. I discovered it is
                          only too apparent that the great sundering between Conlang
                          and Auxlang was precisely because other conlangers didn't
                          like auxlangers quarrels and wanted them to take them
                          elsewhere. Lars' offer of 1992 was not taken up and the list
                          remained united until the beginning of 1996. But December
                          1995 had not shown much Christmas Spirit. A pro-Esperanto ~
                          Anti-Esperanto war was raging and getting more bitter.

                          On Monday 15th Jan. 1996 Lars wrote:
                          "This has certainly been a busy weekend. I think I will
                          repeat something that I have said before: I would personally
                          prefer for discussions of the merits of various
                          conlangs as auxlangs(*) to be held elsewhere. And that goes
                          thrice for discussions of the IAL idea/cause and the history
                          of IAL movements.

                          My offer to run an AUXLANG mailing list on this server still
                          stands."

                          When Lars wrote "This has certainly been a busy weekend", he
                          was being polite. The volume of traffic had reached
                          proportions that we would not tolerate now; and Esperantine
                          war continued to generate heavy traffic so the on the _next
                          day_, Lars announced:
                          {quote}
                          This is politics. I guess I don't like politics.

                          This is not specific to Esperanto, or to Euroclones for that
                          matter.
                          But the concept of an IAL is political, and many
                          Euroclones---many of Esperantos direct competitors---were
                          conceived as IALs. Other types of political statements have
                          been put to the list at times:
                          ................

                          Creating a new list: A number of the more prolific
                          participants in the current debate have indicated that they
                          would cooperate in moving it to a new list. Some
                          non-participants have told me that they do not
                          think a split is necessary, but on the other hand I have
                          been seeing a number of people leave because of the sudden
                          volume. On the balance, I think it is a good idea.

                          The name AUXLANG: the general readership of CONLANG can be a
                          little critical towards projects with high purpose and
                          little substance. On one such occasion, I offered to set up
                          AUXLANG as a place for people who share the basic goal of
                          getting an interlanguage adopted.
                          ............

                          So, by administrative fiat and without further ado, the
                          AUXLANG list is born. Subscribe by sending the message

                          subscribe auxlang
                          {/quote}

                          Then things got a bit better....

                          It has also been interesting seeing emails about the
                          technical problems in those largely ASCII-bound days of
                          portraying diacritics in emails.

                          There was a nostalgia reading some of the old names there :)


                          --
                          Ray
                          ==================================
                          http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                          ==================================
                          Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
                          There's none too old to learn.
                          [WELSH PROVERB]
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