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  • R A Brown
    Salvete linguifices! http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html has archives from the 3rd week of September, 1998 till now and ...
    Message 1 of 12 , May 31, 2011
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      Salvete linguifices!

      http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html
      has archives from the 3rd week of September, 1998 till now
      and ...

      http://www.glossopoeia.org/conlang/index.html
      has archives from 1991 which, I believe, is when the conlang
      list began, until May-June 1994.

      Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the
      2nd week of September 1998 is archived?

      In particular, I would like to find the email in which
      Claudio Gnoli proposed his triangle.

      BTW it is clear that the term _conlang_ was already
      established by 1991. Does anyone know when the term first
      made its appearance or who coined it?

      Thanks.

      --
      Ray
      ==================================
      http://www.carolandray.plus.com
      ==================================
      Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
      There's none too old to learn.
      [WELSH PROVERB]
    • And Rosta
      ... I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily on Conlang List. ... I am certain that
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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        R A Brown, On 01/06/2011 07:10:
        > In particular, I would like to find the email in which Claudio Gnoli proposed his triangle.

        I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily on Conlang List.

        > BTW it is clear that the term _conlang_ was already established by 1991. Does anyone know when the term first made its appearance or who coined it?

        I am certain that the term derives from (a -- perhaps unreflective -- reanalysis of) the name of the list, so either it would be the first use in the archives or, if it seems that everybody is using the term from the outset, then it must date from the brief period before the listservization of the list. Given the name of the list, it is only a short and natural step to apply the list name to the concept 'conlang'.

        Are you planning to also track down the first use of 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang list too, unless in that instance too the listname created the term.

        --And.
      • taliesin the storyteller
        ... I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december 2002 but I didn t have backups... Would like to have m back. Also, I think there was a time during
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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          On 2011-06-01 08:10, R A Brown wrote:
          > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week of
          > September 1998 is archived?

          I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december 2002 but I
          didn't have backups... Would like to have'm back.

          Also, I think there was a time during the transition from Diku to Brown
          that the list was basically offline.


          t.
        • R A Brown
          ... It s not on his current webpages and it s not in my copy of Liva which dates from September 1997. I still have a hazy memory of an email. ... OK - that
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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            On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
            > R A Brown, On 01/06/2011 07:10:
            >> In particular, I would like to find the email in which
            >> Claudio Gnoli proposed his triangle.
            >
            > I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might
            > have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily
            > on Conlang List.

            It's not on his current webpages and it's not in my copy of
            Liva which dates from September 1997. I still have a hazy
            memory of an email.

            >> BTW it is clear that the term _conlang_ was already
            >> established by 1991. Does anyone know when the term
            >> first made its appearance or who coined it?
            >
            > I am certain that the term derives from (a -- perhaps
            > unreflective -- reanalysis of) the name of the list, so
            > either it would be the first use in the archives or, if
            > it seems that everybody is using the term from the
            > outset, then it must date from the brief period before
            > the listservization of the list. Given the name of the
            > list, it is only a short and natural step to apply the
            > list name to the concept 'conlang'.

            OK - that makes sense. So, basically, the adoption of the
            term 'conlang' by the list itself that has made the term
            canonical.

            > Are you planning to also track down the first use of
            > 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
            > list too, unless in that instance too the listname
            > created the term.

            Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get
            things as accurately as possible. I guess it was coined on
            the Conlang list before the "great sundering." Hopefully,
            the name will occur in those early archives.

            I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of
            _artlang_ and see if it was from "art language" or more
            specifically Tolkien's "art-language" (or even "artistic
            language", though I'm sure that is mistaken). But I suspect
            it dates from the "missing years." :(
            -------------------------------------------------

            On 01/06/2011 09:54, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
            > On 2011-06-01 08:10, R A Brown wrote:
            >> Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till
            >> the 2nd week of September 1998 is archived?
            >
            > I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december
            > 2002 but I didn't have backups... Would like to have'm
            > back.
            >
            > Also, I think there was a time during the transition from
            > Diku to Brown that the list was basically offline.

            I don't recall an actual break in the list at the time - but
            I do recall some problem about the archives.

            Did nobody archive any conlang correspondence during those
            "missing years"?

            --
            Ray
            ==================================
            http://www.carolandray.plus.com
            ==================================
            Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
            There's none too old to learn.
            [WELSH PROVERB]
          • Adam Walker
            I have some archives from the 90s, but they are on diskette. If I can find a machine...
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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              I have some archives from the 90s, but they are on diskette. If I can
              find a machine...

              On 6/1/11, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
              > On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
              >> R A Brown, On 01/06/2011 07:10:
              >>> In particular, I would like to find the email in which
              >>> Claudio Gnoli proposed his triangle.
              >>
              >> I think, on the basis of very hazy memory, that it might
              >> have been in his webpages on conlanging, not necessarily
              >> on Conlang List.
              >
              > It's not on his current webpages and it's not in my copy of
              > Liva which dates from September 1997. I still have a hazy
              > memory of an email.
              >
              >>> BTW it is clear that the term _conlang_ was already
              >>> established by 1991. Does anyone know when the term
              >>> first made its appearance or who coined it?
              >>
              >> I am certain that the term derives from (a -- perhaps
              >> unreflective -- reanalysis of) the name of the list, so
              >> either it would be the first use in the archives or, if
              >> it seems that everybody is using the term from the
              >> outset, then it must date from the brief period before
              >> the listservization of the list. Given the name of the
              >> list, it is only a short and natural step to apply the
              >> list name to the concept 'conlang'.
              >
              > OK - that makes sense. So, basically, the adoption of the
              > term 'conlang' by the list itself that has made the term
              > canonical.
              >
              >> Are you planning to also track down the first use of
              >> 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
              >> list too, unless in that instance too the listname
              >> created the term.
              >
              > Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get
              > things as accurately as possible. I guess it was coined on
              > the Conlang list before the "great sundering." Hopefully,
              > the name will occur in those early archives.
              >
              > I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of
              > _artlang_ and see if it was from "art language" or more
              > specifically Tolkien's "art-language" (or even "artistic
              > language", though I'm sure that is mistaken). But I suspect
              > it dates from the "missing years." :(
              > -------------------------------------------------
              >
              > On 01/06/2011 09:54, taliesin the storyteller wrote:
              > > On 2011-06-01 08:10, R A Brown wrote:
              > >> Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till
              > >> the 2nd week of September 1998 is archived?
              > >
              > > I used to have sometime 1996 (when I joined) to december
              > > 2002 but I didn't have backups... Would like to have'm
              > > back.
              > >
              > > Also, I think there was a time during the transition from
              > > Diku to Brown that the list was basically offline.
              >
              > I don't recall an actual break in the list at the time - but
              > I do recall some problem about the archives.
              >
              > Did nobody archive any conlang correspondence during those
              > "missing years"?
              >
              > --
              > Ray
              > ==================================
              > http://www.carolandray.plus.com
              > ==================================
              > Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
              > There's none too old to learn.
              > [WELSH PROVERB]
              >
            • Jim Henry
              ... I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still have them
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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                On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:10 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:

                > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week of
                > September 1998 is archived?

                I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that
                period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still
                have them offline somewhere.

                --
                Jim Henry
                http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
              • Jim Henry
                ... Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100 From: Lars Henrik Mathiesen To: conlang@buphy.bu.edu Subject: conlang vs. world language projects. I
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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                  On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:49 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
                  > On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
                  >> Are you planning to also track down the first use of
                  >> 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
                  >> list too, unless in that instance too the listname
                  >> created the term.

                  > Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get things as accurately
                  > as possible. I guess it was coined on the Conlang list before the "great
                  > sundering." Hopefully, the name will occur in those early archives.

                  The earliest use I see occurs in this mail:

                  >>>
                  Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100
                  From: Lars Henrik Mathiesen <thorinn@...>
                  To: conlang@...
                  Subject: conlang vs. world language projects.

                  I am well aware that there are others on this list whose interests are
                  mainly in IALs, and for whom discussions of artlangs and research
                  langs may be unwelcome distractions. (I sometimes get the impression
                  that they even feel them to be deliberate obstructions.) Perhaps it is
                  time to create an auxlang list?
                  <<<

                  > I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of _artlang_ and see if
                  > it was from "art language" or more specifically Tolkien's "art-language" (or
                  > even "artistic language", though I'm sure that is mistaken).  But I suspect
                  > it dates from the "missing years."  :(

                  It's attested in a message on Halloween 1992 by John Chalmers. He
                  seems to use the term as though his readers already know it.

                  > Did nobody archive any conlang correspondence during those "missing years"?

                  I did, but not systematically or for very long; there are a few
                  threads from mid-1996 on my conlang website.

                  --
                  Jim Henry
                  http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
                • Amanda Babcock Furrow
                  ... I have a copy of Cowan s archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but missing the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may be
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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                    On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 10:34:22AM -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
                    > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:10 AM, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week of
                    > > September 1998 is archived?
                    >
                    > I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that
                    > period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still
                    > have them offline somewhere.

                    I have a copy of Cowan's archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but missing
                    the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may be
                    accesible at http://web.archive.org/web/20030308161722/http://ri.xu.org/conlang/ .
                    The 1995-1997 portion seems to be available at
                    http://web.archive.org/web/20060210220946/http://mercury.ccil.org/~cowan/conlang/
                    (also has dead links to 1991-1994; use the above link for those).

                    I didn't test every link on those pages.

                    I myself wonder where my own archives pre-1998 ended up. Surely I was already
                    saving everything...

                    tylakèhlpë'fö,
                    Amanda
                  • Amanda Babcock Furrow
                    ... Oh... or, as the original poster mentioned, at http://www.glossopoeia.org/conlang/ :) I guess Rick Harrison moved from ri.xu.org to glossopoeia.org. ...
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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                      On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 11:10:02AM -0400, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
                      >
                      > I have a copy of Cowan's archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but missing
                      > the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may be
                      > accesible at http://web.archive.org/web/20030308161722/http://ri.xu.org/conlang/ .

                      Oh... or, as the original poster mentioned, at http://www.glossopoeia.org/conlang/ :)
                      I guess Rick Harrison moved from ri.xu.org to glossopoeia.org.

                      > The 1995-1997 portion seems to be available at
                      > http://web.archive.org/web/20060210220946/http://mercury.ccil.org/~cowan/conlang/

                      This part is still helpful, I hope :)

                      tylakèhlpë'fö,
                      Amanda
                    • Ray Brown
                      Warning: reply-to is not Conlang! I m visiting family at the moment and having to use SquirrelMail which doesn t seem to allow me change it. ... Yep - I had
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 1, 2011
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                        Warning: reply-to is not Conlang! I'm visiting family at the moment and
                        having to use SquirrelMail which doesn't seem to allow me change it.

                        > On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 10:34:22AM -0400, Jim Henry wrote:
                        >> On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 2:10 AM, R A Brown <ray@...>
                        >> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> > Does anyone know if and where stuff from July 1994 till the 2nd week
                        >> of
                        >> > September 1998 is archived?
                        >>
                        >> I think John Cowan used to have archives from at least part of that
                        >> period on his website, but took them down at some point. He may still
                        >> have them offline somewhere.
                        >
                        > I have a copy of Cowan's archives, which runs from 1991 to 1997, but
                        > missing
                        > the second half of 1994. Archive.org has it too. The 1991-1994 part may
                        > be
                        > accesible at
                        > http://web.archive.org/web/20030308161722/http://ri.xu.org/conlang/ .
                        > The 1995-1997 portion seems to be available at

                        Yep - I had found that one, but ...

                        > http://web.archive.org/web/20060210220946/http://mercury.ccil.org/~cowan/conlang/
                        > (also has dead links to 1991-1994; use the above link for those).

                        I hadn't found that on - thanks.

                        > I didn't test every link on those pages.

                        I'll test them later today.

                        Ray.
                      • Ray Brown
                        Same warning about the reply-to as on my reply to Amanda s post. ... That uses both _artlang_ and _auxlang_ - interesting. I believe 1992 was the second year
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 2, 2011
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                          Same warning about the reply-to as on my reply to Amanda's post.

                          > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 5:49 AM, R A Brown <ray@...>
                          > wrote:
                          >> On 01/06/2011 09:53, And Rosta wrote:
                          >>> Are you planning to also track down the first use of
                          >>> 'auxlang'? That must surely have been coined on Conlang
                          >>> list too, unless in that instance too the listname
                          >>> created the term.
                          >
                          >> Good point - I hadn't, but I ought to if I want to get things as
                          >> accurately
                          >> as possible. I guess it was coined on the Conlang list before the "great
                          >> sundering." Hopefully, the name will occur in those early archives.
                          >
                          > The earliest use I see occurs in this mail:
                          >
                          >>>>
                          > Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100
                          > From: Lars Henrik Mathiesen <thorinn@...>
                          > To: conlang@...
                          > Subject: conlang vs. world language projects.
                          >
                          > I am well aware that there are others on this list whose interests are
                          > mainly in IALs, and for whom discussions of artlangs and research
                          > langs may be unwelcome distractions. (I sometimes get the impression
                          > that they even feel them to be deliberate obstructions.) Perhaps it is
                          > time to create an auxlang list?
                          > <<<

                          That uses both _artlang_ and _auxlang_ - interesting. I believe 1992 was
                          the second year of the list's existence, so the terms obviously appeared
                          very early on. I guess "research langs" are roughly our _engelangs_. It's
                          interesting to see that tripartite division at this early date.

                          Also I had always understood that auxlang was set because other conlangers
                          didn't like auxlangers quarrels and wanted them to take them elsewhere;
                          but Lars' letter shows that, in case at least, it was auxlangers who were
                          moved to start a separate list because discussions on artlangs and
                          "research langs" were getting in the way of the serious matter of a world
                          language :)

                          >> I guess I ought to try to track down the first use of _artlang_ and see
                          >> if
                          >> it was from "art language" or more specifically Tolkien's "art-language"
                          >> (or
                          >> even "artistic language", though I'm sure that is mistaken).  But I
                          >> suspect
                          >> it dates from the "missing years."  :(
                          >
                          > It's attested in a message on Halloween 1992 by John Chalmers. He
                          > seems to use the term as though his readers already know it.
                          >

                          A few days before Lars' letter.

                          Ray.
                        • R A Brown
                          On 02/06/2011 08:07, Ray Brown wrote: {snip] ... [snip] ... I ve been looking at these old archive in the last few - they bring back memories. This morning I
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 5, 2011
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                            On 02/06/2011 08:07, Ray Brown wrote:
                            {snip]
                            >> The earliest use [of the term auxlang'] I see occurs in
                            >> this mail:
                            >>
                            >>>>>
                            >> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 92 16:26:12 +0100 From: Lars Henrik
                            >> Mathiesen<thorinn@...> To: conlang@...
                            >> Subject: conlang vs. world language projects.
                            >>
                            >> I am well aware that there are others on this list
                            >> whose interests are mainly in IALs, and for whom
                            >> discussions of artlangs and research langs may be
                            >> unwelcome distractions. (I sometimes get the
                            >> impression that they even feel them to be deliberate
                            >> obstructions.) Perhaps it is time to create an auxlang
                            >> list? <<<
                            [snip]
                            >
                            > Also I had always understood that auxlang was set because
                            > other conlangers didn't like auxlangers quarrels and
                            > wanted them to take them elsewhere; but Lars' letter
                            > shows that, in case at least, it was auxlangers who were
                            > moved to start a separate list because discussions on
                            > artlangs and "research langs" were getting in the way of
                            > the serious matter of a world language :)

                            I've been looking at these old archive in the last few -
                            they bring back memories. This morning I was reading the
                            early emails on Folkspaak :)

                            But I ought to remove the smiley above. I discovered it is
                            only too apparent that the great sundering between Conlang
                            and Auxlang was precisely because other conlangers didn't
                            like auxlangers quarrels and wanted them to take them
                            elsewhere. Lars' offer of 1992 was not taken up and the list
                            remained united until the beginning of 1996. But December
                            1995 had not shown much Christmas Spirit. A pro-Esperanto ~
                            Anti-Esperanto war was raging and getting more bitter.

                            On Monday 15th Jan. 1996 Lars wrote:
                            "This has certainly been a busy weekend. I think I will
                            repeat something that I have said before: I would personally
                            prefer for discussions of the merits of various
                            conlangs as auxlangs(*) to be held elsewhere. And that goes
                            thrice for discussions of the IAL idea/cause and the history
                            of IAL movements.

                            My offer to run an AUXLANG mailing list on this server still
                            stands."

                            When Lars wrote "This has certainly been a busy weekend", he
                            was being polite. The volume of traffic had reached
                            proportions that we would not tolerate now; and Esperantine
                            war continued to generate heavy traffic so the on the _next
                            day_, Lars announced:
                            {quote}
                            This is politics. I guess I don't like politics.

                            This is not specific to Esperanto, or to Euroclones for that
                            matter.
                            But the concept of an IAL is political, and many
                            Euroclones---many of Esperantos direct competitors---were
                            conceived as IALs. Other types of political statements have
                            been put to the list at times:
                            ................

                            Creating a new list: A number of the more prolific
                            participants in the current debate have indicated that they
                            would cooperate in moving it to a new list. Some
                            non-participants have told me that they do not
                            think a split is necessary, but on the other hand I have
                            been seeing a number of people leave because of the sudden
                            volume. On the balance, I think it is a good idea.

                            The name AUXLANG: the general readership of CONLANG can be a
                            little critical towards projects with high purpose and
                            little substance. On one such occasion, I offered to set up
                            AUXLANG as a place for people who share the basic goal of
                            getting an interlanguage adopted.
                            ............

                            So, by administrative fiat and without further ado, the
                            AUXLANG list is born. Subscribe by sending the message

                            subscribe auxlang
                            {/quote}

                            Then things got a bit better....

                            It has also been interesting seeing emails about the
                            technical problems in those largely ASCII-bound days of
                            portraying diacritics in emails.

                            There was a nostalgia reading some of the old names there :)


                            --
                            Ray
                            ==================================
                            http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                            ==================================
                            Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
                            There's none too old to learn.
                            [WELSH PROVERB]
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