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Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?

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  • Daniel Bowman
    All, First, the question: Does anyone use the minus sign - as a symbol in his or her conlang? Second, why I am asking: Some time ago I asked for suggestions
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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      All,

      First, the question:

      Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?

      Second, why I am asking:

      Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
      in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This dictionary
      will eventually be released to our community for others to use.

      I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
      achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
      The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
      commands. For example:

      -k love

      would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"

      -w zakayro

      would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"

      The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
      from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
      This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
      symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
      conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.

      Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my Angosey
      dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
      option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
      match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
      dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.

      >>-k illusion
      illusion
      WORD:
      adra

      DEFINITION:
      1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive. 3.
      To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.

      COMMENTS:
      Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
      Althalethian Esyevath
      ***********************
      WORD:
      al dantayethreya

      DEFINITION:
      1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid dreaming.

      COMMENTS:
      Used a lot during Junior year
      ***********************
      WORD:
      al edreth

      DEFINITION:
      1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.

      COMMENTS:

      ***********************

      Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
      I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
      done.
    • Mechthild Czapp
      ... I use the - in certain situations related to colloquial speech: Namely to indicate that an abbreviation does not use the beginning of the term. This
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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        -------- Original-Nachricht --------
        > Datum: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 22:23:03 -0400
        > Von: Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...>
        > An: CONLANG@...
        > Betreff: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?

        > All,
        >
        > First, the question:
        >
        > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
        >
        I use the - in certain situations related to colloquial speech: Namely to indicate that an abbreviation does not use the beginning of the term. This however only happens to place names, ie: -tani for rejis_tani_ha (the underscores just indicates where the word appears), -kali for het_kali_ and -jara for Naja_jara_.

        It is not really important in the language and appears seldomly.

        > Second, why I am asking:
        >
        > Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to
        > use
        > in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
        > dictionary
        > will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
        >
        > I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
        > achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
        > The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
        > commands. For example:
        >
        > -k love
        >
        > would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
        >
        > -w zakayro
        >
        > would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
        >
        > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with
        > "-")
        > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
        > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
        > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
        > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
        >
        > Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my
        > Angosey
        > dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The
        > "-k"
        > option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
        > match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
        > dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
        >
        > >>-k illusion
        > illusion
        > WORD:
        > adra
        >
        > DEFINITION:
        > 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive.
        > 3.
        > To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
        >
        > COMMENTS:
        > Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
        > Althalethian Esyevath
        > ***********************
        > WORD:
        > al dantayethreya
        >
        > DEFINITION:
        > 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
        > dreaming.
        >
        > COMMENTS:
        > Used a lot during Junior year
        > ***********************
        > WORD:
        > al edreth
        >
        > DEFINITION:
        > 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
        >
        > COMMENTS:
        >
        > ***********************
        >
        > Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most
        > welcome.
        > I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever
        > it's
        > done.

        Sounds neat! :)
        --
        Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.

        My life would be easy if it was not so hard!



        GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl.
        Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
      • Eric Christopherson
        ... [...] ... I think that whatever character you used for options, there would always be the possibility of clashing with a conlang s orthography (or
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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          On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:

          > All,
          >
          > First, the question:
          >
          > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
          [...]
          >
          > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
          > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
          > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
          > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
          > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.

          I think that whatever character you used for options, there would always be the possibility of clashing with a conlang's orthography (or transcription). Maybe you could allow it to be escaped, e.g. \-.

          What kinds of "searches or other commands" would be executed when no option is presented?
        • MorphemeAddict
          All of Rick Morneau s interlanguages use a hyphen in the phrases for tomorrow , yesterday , last night , and today . The hyphen is not a part of the
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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            All of Rick Morneau's interlanguages use a hyphen in the phrases for
            'tomorrow', 'yesterday', 'last night', and 'today'. The hyphen is not a part
            of the language, but it is used in the lexicon.
            I don't use the hyphen in those words in Saweli, but I do use it to separate
            part-of-speech endings from following endings.

            stevo
            On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...>wrote:

            > All,
            >
            > First, the question:
            >
            > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
            >
            > Second, why I am asking:
            >
            > Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
            > in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
            > dictionary
            > will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
            >
            > I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
            > achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
            > The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
            > commands. For example:
            >
            > -k love
            >
            > would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
            >
            > -w zakayro
            >
            > would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
            >
            > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
            > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
            > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
            > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
            > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
            >
            > Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my
            > Angosey
            > dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
            > option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
            > match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
            > dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
            >
            > >>-k illusion
            > illusion
            > WORD:
            > adra
            >
            > DEFINITION:
            > 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive.
            > 3.
            > To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
            >
            > COMMENTS:
            > Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
            > Althalethian Esyevath
            > ***********************
            > WORD:
            > al dantayethreya
            >
            > DEFINITION:
            > 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
            > dreaming.
            >
            > COMMENTS:
            > Used a lot during Junior year
            > ***********************
            > WORD:
            > al edreth
            >
            > DEFINITION:
            > 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
            >
            > COMMENTS:
            >
            > ***********************
            >
            > Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
            > I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
            > done.
            >
          • Adam Walker
            I use it in Carrajina as a bit of punctuation. My phone keypad does not have a dash so imagine the tilde is a dash. C~a is the abbreviation for Carraxa or
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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              I use it in Carrajina as a bit of punctuation. My phone keypad does
              not have a dash so imagine the tilde is a dash. C~a is the
              abbreviation for Carraxa or Carrajina. T~a is likewise for Talosa.
              Adam

              On 8/2/10, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...> wrote:
              > All,
              >
              > First, the question:
              >
              > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
              >
              > Second, why I am asking:
              >
              > Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
              > in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This dictionary
              > will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
              >
              > I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
              > achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
              > The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
              > commands. For example:
              >
              > -k love
              >
              > would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
              >
              > -w zakayro
              >
              > would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
              >
              > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
              > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
              > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
              > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
              > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
              >
              > Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my Angosey
              > dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
              > option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
              > match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
              > dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
              >
              >>>-k illusion
              > illusion
              > WORD:
              > adra
              >
              > DEFINITION:
              > 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive. 3.
              > To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
              >
              > COMMENTS:
              > Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
              > Althalethian Esyevath
              > ***********************
              > WORD:
              > al dantayethreya
              >
              > DEFINITION:
              > 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid dreaming.
              >
              > COMMENTS:
              > Used a lot during Junior year
              > ***********************
              > WORD:
              > al edreth
              >
              > DEFINITION:
              > 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
              >
              > COMMENTS:
              >
              > ***********************
              >
              > Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
              > I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
              > done.
              >
            • Lee
              ... From: Eric Christopherson Subject: Re: Does anyone use the - symbol in his/her conlang? To: CONLANG@listserv.brown.edu Date: Monday,
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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                --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...> wrote:

                From: Eric Christopherson <rakko@...>
                Subject: Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
                To: CONLANG@...
                Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 9:51 PM

                On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:

                > All,
                >
                > First, the question:
                >
                > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
                [...]
                >
                > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
                > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
                > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
                > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
                > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.

                I think that whatever character you used for options, there would always be the possibility of clashing with a conlang's orthography (or transcription). Maybe you could allow it to be escaped, e.g. \-.

                What kinds of "searches or other commands" would be executed when no option is presented?
                - - - -

                Another way to handle this is to provide an option to change the hyphen to another character.

                Many SQL dialects allow something similar when creating a stored procedure. An example for Firebird can be found at http://www.firebirdfaq.org/faq78/ (Note that in this case it is the terminating character that is changed, but the idea is the same.)

                Lee
              • MorphemeAddict
                In general it s probably best to assume that either some conlang already does use a hyphen or one will in the future, and allow for it. stevo
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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                  In general it's probably best to assume that either some conlang already
                  does use a hyphen or one will in the future, and allow for it.

                  stevo

                  On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Lee <waywardwretch@...> wrote:

                  > --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Eric Christopherson <rakko@...>
                  > Subject: Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
                  > To: CONLANG@...
                  > Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 9:51 PM
                  >
                  > On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
                  >
                  > > All,
                  > >
                  > > First, the question:
                  > >
                  > > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
                  > [...]
                  > >
                  > > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with
                  > "-")
                  > > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
                  > > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the
                  > "-"
                  > > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
                  > > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
                  >
                  > I think that whatever character you used for options, there would always be
                  > the possibility of clashing with a conlang's orthography (or transcription).
                  > Maybe you could allow it to be escaped, e.g. \-.
                  >
                  > What kinds of "searches or other commands" would be executed when no option
                  > is presented?
                  > - - - -
                  >
                  > Another way to handle this is to provide an option to change the hyphen to
                  > another character.
                  >
                  > Many SQL dialects allow something similar when creating a stored procedure.
                  > An example for Firebird can be found at http://www.firebirdfaq.org/faq78/(Note that in this case it is the terminating character that is changed, but
                  > the idea is the same.)
                  >
                  > Lee
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Roger Mills
                  ... In my Kash-English dictionary, the hyphen separates some compounds and full reduplications. In Kash script, a hyphen char. represents the comma, so it
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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                    --- On Mon, 8/2/10, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@...> wrote:

                    > In general it's probably best to
                    > assume that either some conlang already
                    > does use a hyphen or one will in the future, and allow for
                    > it.

                    In my Kash-English dictionary, the hyphen separates some compounds and full reduplications. In Kash script, a hyphen char. represents the comma, so it appears at the end of words, and probably isn't relevant to the question, and I'm not sure the other use is relevant either :-)))
                  • Matthew Nichols
                    Why not -k -word or -k word-play ? If -k has suboptions, you might need to escape the first one ( -k -word perhaps? Then -word would be -k -word or
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 2, 2010
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                      Why not "-k -word" or "-k word-play"? If -k has suboptions, you might
                      need to escape the first one ("-k \-word" perhaps? Then "\-word" would
                      be "-k \\-word" or "-k \\\-word"). You could also have it quoted («-k
                      "-word"») and *NIX has "--" ("-k -- -word"). And if you're doing it in
                      the style of getopt(), "-k -word" should be fine, since "-k" always has
                      an argument (right?).

                      On 8/2/2010 7:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
                      > All,
                      >
                      > First, the question:
                      >
                      > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
                      >
                      > Second, why I am asking:
                      >
                      > Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
                      > in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This dictionary
                      > will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
                      >
                      > I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
                      > achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
                      > The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
                      > commands. For example:
                      >
                      > -k love
                      >
                      > would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
                      >
                      > -w zakayro
                      >
                      > would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
                      >
                      > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
                      > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
                      > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
                      > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
                      > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
                      >
                      > Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my Angosey
                      > dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
                      > option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
                      > match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
                      > dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
                      >
                      >>> -k illusion
                      > illusion
                      > WORD:
                      > adra
                      >
                      > DEFINITION:
                      > 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive. 3.
                      > To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
                      >
                      > COMMENTS:
                      > Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
                      > Althalethian Esyevath
                      > ***********************
                      > WORD:
                      > al dantayethreya
                      >
                      > DEFINITION:
                      > 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid dreaming.
                      >
                      > COMMENTS:
                      > Used a lot during Junior year
                      > ***********************
                      > WORD:
                      > al edreth
                      >
                      > DEFINITION:
                      > 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
                      >
                      > COMMENTS:
                      >
                      > ***********************
                      >
                      > Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
                      > I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
                      > done.
                    • Samuel Stutter
                      - ? Either I m misunderstanding the question but, apart from grammar - like I use in English quite often when a colon or semi-colon doesn t seem quite right
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                        "-" ? Either I'm misunderstanding the question but, apart from grammar
                        - like I use in English quite often when a colon or semi-colon doesn't
                        seem quite right (I've always imagined it having a slightly different
                        meaning) - I use it for hyphenation, as in the word "semi-colon"
                        which as far as I know hasn't lost the hyphen and become a single word
                        yet. The language uses it regularly in numbers like "des-sis" /ten-
                        six/ for sixteen and in a word like "tráns-fêgaricenn" /trunk road/
                        or /main road/. I imagine my language does this rather a lot due to it
                        being a bit like French (with a college of language governing it), and
                        it being historically somewhat oppressed, becoming culturally
                        important (thus slow to change). Writers would have to glue words
                        together with a regularity which would really annoy the language's
                        governing body. :-D
                        I'm not a programmer so this discussion has confused me somewhat... :-S

                        Sam S


                        On 3 Aug 2010, at 06:13, Matthew Nichols wrote:

                        > Why not "-k -word" or "-k word-play"? If -k has suboptions, you
                        > might need to escape the first one ("-k \-word" perhaps? Then "\-
                        > word" would be "-k \\-word" or "-k \\\-word"). You could also have
                        > it quoted («-k "-word"») and *NIX has "--" ("-k -- -word"). And if
                        > you're doing it in the style of getopt(), "-k -word" should be fine,
                        > since "-k" always has an argument (right?).
                        >
                        > On 8/2/2010 7:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
                        >> All,
                        >>
                        >> First, the question:
                        >>
                        >> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
                        >>
                        >> Second, why I am asking:
                        >>
                        >> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming
                        >> language to use
                        >> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
                        >> dictionary
                        >> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
                        >>
                        >> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it
                        >> to
                        >> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search
                        >> engine.
                        >> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user
                        >> will type
                        >> commands. For example:
                        >>
                        >> -k love
                        >>
                        >> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
                        >>
                        >> -w zakayro
                        >>
                        >> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
                        >>
                        >> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting
                        >> with "-")
                        >> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with
                        >> "-").
                        >> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use
                        >> the "-"
                        >> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words
                        >> in this
                        >> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
                        >>
                        >> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching
                        >> my Angosey
                        >> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion".
                        >> The "-k"
                        >> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to
                        >> find a
                        >> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-
                        >> g" (grammar). The
                        >> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
                        >>
                        >>>> -k illusion
                        >> illusion
                        >> WORD:
                        >> adra
                        >>
                        >> DEFINITION:
                        >> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to
                        >> deceive. 3.
                        >> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
                        >>
                        >> COMMENTS:
                        >> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian
                        >> Larath and
                        >> Althalethian Esyevath
                        >> ***********************
                        >> WORD:
                        >> al dantayethreya
                        >>
                        >> DEFINITION:
                        >> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
                        >> dreaming.
                        >>
                        >> COMMENTS:
                        >> Used a lot during Junior year
                        >> ***********************
                        >> WORD:
                        >> al edreth
                        >>
                        >> DEFINITION:
                        >> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
                        >>
                        >> COMMENTS:
                        >>
                        >> ***********************
                        >>
                        >> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most
                        >> welcome.
                        >> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list
                        >> whenever it's
                        >> done.
                      • Calculator Ftvb
                        I use the hyphen-minus extensively in Romanised Anoé. (It s used for compound words such as itfaén-atel-ésélit , meaning spacetime , and in prefixes,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 12, 2010
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                          I use the hyphen-minus extensively in Romanised Anoé. (It's used for
                          compound words such as 'itfaén-atel-ésélit', meaning 'spacetime', and in
                          prefixes, suffixes, adjectives, adverbs, and some conjunctions.) In a
                          dataset for a computerised dictionary, it could be replaced by another
                          character that's not used in Anoé, such as 'x'.
                          That program is a cool idea!

                          On 2 August 2010 22:23, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...> wrote:

                          > All,
                          >
                          > First, the question:
                          >
                          > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
                          >
                          > Second, why I am asking:
                          >
                          > Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
                          > in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
                          > dictionary
                          > will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
                          >
                          > I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
                          > achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
                          > The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
                          > commands. For example:
                          >
                          > -k love
                          >
                          > would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
                          >
                          > -w zakayro
                          >
                          > would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
                          >
                          > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
                          > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
                          > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
                          > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
                          > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
                          >
                          > Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my
                          > Angosey
                          > dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
                          > option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
                          > match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
                          > dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
                          >
                          > >>-k illusion
                          > illusion
                          > WORD:
                          > adra
                          >
                          > DEFINITION:
                          > 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive.
                          > 3.
                          > To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
                          >
                          > COMMENTS:
                          > Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
                          > Althalethian Esyevath
                          > ***********************
                          > WORD:
                          > al dantayethreya
                          >
                          > DEFINITION:
                          > 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
                          > dreaming.
                          >
                          > COMMENTS:
                          > Used a lot during Junior year
                          > ***********************
                          > WORD:
                          > al edreth
                          >
                          > DEFINITION:
                          > 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
                          >
                          > COMMENTS:
                          >
                          > ***********************
                          >
                          > Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
                          > I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
                          > done.
                          >
                        • kechpaja
                          I use it for compound words, and with prefixes... jæp-sótrz / j&b ZoU.d@/ again-appear to reappear (perfective) e-kap / eI.gAp/ un-grab to release, let go
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 12, 2010
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                            I use it for compound words, and with prefixes...

                            jæp-sótrz
                            /'j&b'ZoU.d@/
                            again-appear
                            to reappear (perfective)

                            e-kap
                            /'eI.gAp/
                            un-grab
                            to release, let go (imperfective)

                            On Aug 12, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Calculator Ftvb wrote:

                            > I use the hyphen-minus extensively in Romanised Anoé. (It's used for
                            > compound words such as 'itfaén-atel-ésélit', meaning 'spacetime', and in
                            > prefixes, suffixes, adjectives, adverbs, and some conjunctions.) In a
                            > dataset for a computerised dictionary, it could be replaced by another
                            > character that's not used in Anoé, such as 'x'.
                            > That program is a cool idea!
                            >
                            > On 2 August 2010 22:23, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> All,
                            >>
                            >> First, the question:
                            >>
                            >> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
                            >>
                            >> Second, why I am asking:
                            >>
                            >> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
                            >> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
                            >> dictionary
                            >> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
                            >>
                            >> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
                            >> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
                            >> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
                            >> commands. For example:
                            >>
                            >> -k love
                            >>
                            >> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
                            >>
                            >> -w zakayro
                            >>
                            >> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
                            >>
                            >> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
                            >> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
                            >> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
                            >> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
                            >> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
                            >>
                            >> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my
                            >> Angosey
                            >> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
                            >> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
                            >> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
                            >> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
                            >>
                            >>>> -k illusion
                            >> illusion
                            >> WORD:
                            >> adra
                            >>
                            >> DEFINITION:
                            >> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive.
                            >> 3.
                            >> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
                            >>
                            >> COMMENTS:
                            >> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
                            >> Althalethian Esyevath
                            >> ***********************
                            >> WORD:
                            >> al dantayethreya
                            >>
                            >> DEFINITION:
                            >> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
                            >> dreaming.
                            >>
                            >> COMMENTS:
                            >> Used a lot during Junior year
                            >> ***********************
                            >> WORD:
                            >> al edreth
                            >>
                            >> DEFINITION:
                            >> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
                            >>
                            >> COMMENTS:
                            >>
                            >> ***********************
                            >>
                            >> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
                            >> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
                            >> done.
                            >>
                          • Daniel Bowman
                            It turns out I decided to use syntax alone to determine what is the option and what is the argument-meaning your conlang should be able to have any symbol at
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 15, 2010
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                              It turns out I decided to use syntax alone to determine what is the option
                              and what is the argument-meaning your conlang should be able to have any
                              symbol at all, and the program will be able to handle it. Basically, the
                              program will look for an option at the command prompt. If it recognizes the
                              option, it will assume the word immediately after is the argument. So, for
                              example:

                              >> -k love

                              will search all keywords for "love" and return the conlang words that match.

                              >>-k

                              will return nothing, because no keyword is specified.

                              >> -k -k

                              will search the keywords database for "-k" and return any records that match
                              (probably not any, unless you use -k as some sort of abbreviation).

                              On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 9:14 PM, kechpaja <kechpaja@...> wrote:

                              > I use it for compound words, and with prefixes...
                              >
                              > jæp-sótrz
                              > /'j&b'ZoU.d@/
                              > again-appear
                              > to reappear (perfective)
                              >
                              > e-kap
                              > /'eI.gAp/
                              > un-grab
                              > to release, let go (imperfective)
                              >
                              > On Aug 12, 2010, at 11:05 PM, Calculator Ftvb wrote:
                              >
                              > > I use the hyphen-minus extensively in Romanised Anoé. (It's used for
                              > > compound words such as 'itfaén-atel-ésélit', meaning 'spacetime', and in
                              > > prefixes, suffixes, adjectives, adverbs, and some conjunctions.) In a
                              > > dataset for a computerised dictionary, it could be replaced by another
                              > > character that's not used in Anoé, such as 'x'.
                              > > That program is a cool idea!
                              > >
                              > > On 2 August 2010 22:23, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >> All,
                              > >>
                              > >> First, the question:
                              > >>
                              > >> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
                              > >>
                              > >> Second, why I am asking:
                              > >>
                              > >> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to
                              > use
                              > >> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
                              > >> dictionary
                              > >> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
                              > >>
                              > >> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
                              > >> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search
                              > engine.
                              > >> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will
                              > type
                              > >> commands. For example:
                              > >>
                              > >> -k love
                              > >>
                              > >> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
                              > >>
                              > >> -w zakayro
                              > >>
                              > >> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
                              > >>
                              > >> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with
                              > "-")
                              > >> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with
                              > "-").
                              > >> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the
                              > "-"
                              > >> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in
                              > this
                              > >> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
                              > >>
                              > >> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my
                              > >> Angosey
                              > >> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The
                              > "-k"
                              > >> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
                              > >> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar).
                              > The
                              > >> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
                              > >>
                              > >>>> -k illusion
                              > >> illusion
                              > >> WORD:
                              > >> adra
                              > >>
                              > >> DEFINITION:
                              > >> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive.
                              > >> 3.
                              > >> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
                              > >>
                              > >> COMMENTS:
                              > >> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath
                              > and
                              > >> Althalethian Esyevath
                              > >> ***********************
                              > >> WORD:
                              > >> al dantayethreya
                              > >>
                              > >> DEFINITION:
                              > >> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
                              > >> dreaming.
                              > >>
                              > >> COMMENTS:
                              > >> Used a lot during Junior year
                              > >> ***********************
                              > >> WORD:
                              > >> al edreth
                              > >>
                              > >> DEFINITION:
                              > >> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
                              > >>
                              > >> COMMENTS:
                              > >>
                              > >> ***********************
                              > >>
                              > >> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most
                              > welcome.
                              > >> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever
                              > it's
                              > >> done.
                              > >>
                              >



                              --
                              Ayryea zakayro al Gayaltha
                            • Brett Williams
                              ... I didn t bother mentioning my ASCII language as one that uses - because it uses EVERY character so it s not as if you could choose a different one, and
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > will search the keywords database for "-k" and return any records that match
                                > (probably not any, unless you use -k as some sort of abbreviation).

                                I didn't bother mentioning my ASCII language as one that uses "-"
                                because it uses EVERY character so it's not as if you could choose a
                                different one, and it's probably too fluid for dictionaries anyway.
                                But it could easily have a word "-k"! The way it's been working
                                lately, "-k" would be the same word as "-q" and "-x" and even "-%"
                                depending on your mood ("q" is more refined and relaxed while "x" is
                                angry and "%" incensed). I'm not sure about "-", maybe that could
                                vary with "~" so then you could have "~k" or "~%" too. 8D

                                <3,
                                la stela selckiku
                                aka
                                mungojelly
                                aka
                                bret-ram
                                aka
                                veret'he
                                aka
                                brett
                                aka
                                j
                              • MorphemeAddict
                                selckiku, Have you published on the net this ASCII language? I d like to see it. stevo
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                  selckiku,
                                  Have you published on the net this ASCII language? I'd like to see it.

                                  stevo

                                  On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Brett Williams <mungojelly@...>wrote:

                                  > On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 6:58 PM, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bowman@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > will search the keywords database for "-k" and return any records that
                                  > match
                                  > > (probably not any, unless you use -k as some sort of abbreviation).
                                  >
                                  > I didn't bother mentioning my ASCII language as one that uses "-"
                                  > because it uses EVERY character so it's not as if you could choose a
                                  > different one, and it's probably too fluid for dictionaries anyway.
                                  > But it could easily have a word "-k"! The way it's been working
                                  > lately, "-k" would be the same word as "-q" and "-x" and even "-%"
                                  > depending on your mood ("q" is more refined and relaxed while "x" is
                                  > angry and "%" incensed). I'm not sure about "-", maybe that could
                                  > vary with "~" so then you could have "~k" or "~%" too. 8D
                                  >
                                  > <3,
                                  > la stela selckiku
                                  > aka
                                  > mungojelly
                                  > aka
                                  > bret-ram
                                  > aka
                                  > veret'he
                                  > aka
                                  > brett
                                  > aka
                                  > j
                                  >
                                • Alex Fink
                                  ... Ah, neat. What is it that determines these sets of substitutible characters? I d expect it to be position on the keyboard, or maybe position in ASCII.
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                    On Sun, 15 Aug 2010 20:12:10 -0400, Brett Williams <mungojelly@...> wrote:

                                    >I didn't bother mentioning my ASCII language as one that uses "-"
                                    >because it uses EVERY character so it's not as if you could choose a
                                    >different one, and it's probably too fluid for dictionaries anyway.
                                    >But it could easily have a word "-k"! The way it's been working
                                    >lately, "-k" would be the same word as "-q" and "-x" and even "-%"
                                    >depending on your mood ("q" is more refined and relaxed while "x" is
                                    >angry and "%" incensed). I'm not sure about "-", maybe that could
                                    >vary with "~" so then you could have "~k" or "~%" too. 8D

                                    Ah, neat. What is it that determines these sets of substitutible
                                    characters? I'd expect it to be position on the keyboard, or maybe position
                                    in ASCII. But it looks like neither; I dare say what it does look like is
                                    phonological, in that "k" and "q" and "x" all are nice voiceless dorsal-type
                                    letters. But you've said you want to forgo a spoken form! Not that that
                                    would accounts for "%" anyway. Or is it shape? "-" and "~" that works for,
                                    and "k" and "x" and maaaybe "%"?

                                    Alex
                                  • Brett Williams
                                    ... There s not enough yet to be worth publishing. Well I do have a zillion documents I ve written about it over the years. But they re all just rants and
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                      On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:32 PM, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@...> wrote:
                                      > Have you published on the net this ASCII language? I'd like to see it.


                                      There's not enough yet to be worth publishing. Well I do have a
                                      zillion documents I've written about it over the years. But they're
                                      all just rants and experimentation. I'm planning to eventually
                                      publish them somewhere, especially if I succeed in my goal of getting
                                      together a community of people speaking my language-- then all of my
                                      past rants would be meaningful history, maybe. OK I'll put one of my
                                      rants here, so you know what I'm talking about, but keep in mind that
                                      I don't agree with anything I said and probably won't use any of these
                                      ideas!

                                      <3,
                                      j

                                      (i sign j sometimes because it was my name in one iteration of this
                                      language, a brief social experiment that Jim Henry and Daniel Brockman
                                      helped out with!)

                                      ---rant follows---


                                      well now here i am!
                                      writing in courier new bold@!
                                      okie dokies!

                                      jijijijijij

                                      a% ji% ijlij lijlj lij lij lijlij jijijij jijijij



                                      'lkj;lkj;lkj;lkj

                                      jkjkjk

                                      l[]p

                                      l[p]p

                                      l[lp]

                                      l[lp]p

                                      lp[lp[lp]]

                                      l[l[lp]p]p

                                      i thought those last two could be identical. ooh man, i've lost my
                                      qwerty chops!

                                      so you can pre/post/infix with [] {} or () which could be three semantics

                                      j[jk]k = jk[jk] = [jk]jk

                                      jk[jk{jk(jk)}] = j[j{jk(jk)}k]k = [jk{j(jk)k}]jk

                                      omg is that like, readable at all???

                                      hard to say w/o some practice

                                      that combined with the variability of the words is crazeenezz

                                      + and | could be and/or

                                      / for alternatives perhaps, hmm \ too with different semantics

                                      _- seem like separators of some sort

                                      : ; maybe punctuaty, ; in particular shd be much used

                                      oh yeah there's another set of brackets, <>

                                      <jk[j{jk}(j{jk<jk>}k)k]>jk

                                      *&^%$#@!~ are increasingly emotional

                                      and qazwsxedcrfv that end of the keyboard is for rarer words

                                      or more complicated versions of words

                                      i mean like any ordinary word might have some optional Qs and Zs that you cd
                                      throw in there if u wanted 2 get fancy

                                      hmm 2 i like that.. the numbers cd b wrds as well as numbers

                                      there could be lots of words, 23, 17

                                      yay on polysemy

                                      also i thought of having both alternativeA/alternativeB and /emphasis/
                                      with slashes

                                      i'm switching back and forth qwerty/dvorak on two different windows, crazy

                                      hmm there's a possibility for what the backslash cd mean.. not
                                      alternatives but an alternation

                                      i was reading\writing email.. not that i was doing one or the other,
                                      but that i was going back\forth

                                      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~```````````

                                      hmm there's a possible say

                                      i like the idea of giving all the symbols lots of overlapping meanings
                                      -enough that you could make it look like lots of different styles:

                                      orderly
                                      ll[l]ll l-[-l-]-lklul[llll] a<(ooo)>la[-l-]

                                      or line noise
                                      j{: l(j{:)%l% <^a>la (((a)b)**)

                                      hmm i dunno i find it hard to do the style i was imaginging

                                      as;lirgajis'gjo 'saoe kjgsaeo[gk -0i5k-]56i0 h5]6-hk0 5]60kh rotkhb

                                      )(^IH 4{^0h $()^IH $(H^j p$(J6hj4(Jh P($J6hp jh4p^j 3BJ ?{U

                                      i thought maybe there could be elision of ({[<>]}) matches, so that you
                                      could get a more random look like that.

                                      OK:OK0[k (JDTPjg P(Jgpjt *(J^%*^ J^ ^&^&^ &^&(^& (^&(^&(^& ()(%*^ &
                                      )(%*^ )(%*^ )(*%^ (^*& %^7 0 0af 89j) 098jdf 98(*& &*&*( ;(*& 987 :(*&(F*

                                      :*SD&F:L* 7llkj lkjdfs;lkjdf /.S<JDPF89j (*)J oij*()PJ 8(*)J (*j089j
                                      09*(*)J) *Pjl;ksjd;flkj -okjl; lkjp kljppljppp pjplkjpoij io;;;l
                                      kj;lkj ;lkj ;lkj lkjsf a; iorjto ij-[;ij ;oi'''j ;lkj;lkj ;lkj [[[[
                                      poj]][ pjo ]poj [] jp[]j ;l][pj [][jpo [ ][oj ][ji ][ji [ji]i ][ji
                                      j][[ij j[]ij ] []jio [j[ [jo[] o[[oj[] [jo[] [jo] ]oj[ jio[j [j
                                      ojfg[] [oj[oj] ] [ijij[] i[ijij]jij

                                      ijij[ijij] ij[ijij]ij ij[ij[ij[ijij]ij]ij]ij ]ij ]ij ]ij]ij ij] ij[ ij
                                      ij ]ij <-- that's an interesting something, with spaces inside a
                                      'word'

                                      ijij[ijij] = ij[ijij]ij = ij[ ijij ]ij

                                      i had a thought that the infixed version could be a more lexicalized,
                                      is that the word, more made into a word. so ijij[ijij] would be more
                                      like putting [ijij] onto ijij but then once you got used to it you'd
                                      incorporate it as ij[ijij]ij and that's more of a compound meaning.
                                      then there's prefixxing tooooooooooo. i dunno what to use that for.
                                      maybe not use it and make it less confusing? NAH!

                                      the brackets cd also be used for higher level bracketing,

                                      [ijij[ijij] ij[ ijij ]ij ij[ijij]ij] [[ijij[ijij] ij[ijij]ij ijij]]

                                      yay, gorgeous

                                      ([ij[ijij]ij ij[ijij]ij]({ij[ijij]ij})[ij[ijij]ij ij[ijij]ij])

                                      putting something in a bunch of brackets like ({[ ]}) feels like,
                                      kingly. perhaps it can show a som,ething of importance in a say..

                                      ij[ijij]ij ij[ijij]ij ({[({ ijij })]}) ijij[ijij] ijij ij jij

                                      and then that's like the careful way to say it but u cd also just say

                                      {({({(<<<< ijij >>>})}]})])}]
                                    • Brett Williams
                                      I thought of maybe changing the subject because I felt like I was hijacking this thread, but then I realized that my language is actually totally relevant to
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 15, 2010
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                                        I thought of maybe changing the subject because I felt like I was
                                        hijacking this thread, but then I realized that my language is
                                        actually totally relevant to this subject line... I use "-" way more
                                        than anybody else!


                                        On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Alex Fink <000024@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Ah, neat.  What is it that determines these sets of substitutible
                                        > characters?  I'd expect it to be position on the keyboard, or maybe position
                                        > in ASCII.  But it looks like neither; I dare say what it does look like is
                                        > phonological, in that "k" and "q" and "x" all are nice voiceless dorsal-type
                                        > letters.  But you've said you want to forgo a spoken form!  Not that that
                                        > would accounts for "%" anyway.  Or is it shape?  "-" and "~" that works for,
                                        > and "k" and "x" and maaaybe "%"?


                                        Those sequences aren't set in stone, I'm still experimenting with
                                        them. So I appreciate the feedback.

                                        Mostly the relations have to do with shape. Position on the (qwerty)
                                        keyboard also matters in some funny way I find hard to describe, hmm.
                                        I guess each sequence tends to have something easier to type that's
                                        more normal, and variations from the further reaches of the keyboard.
                                        For instance "k" is the normal unmarked form, "x" is a bit more
                                        marked, and "%" is somewhat unusual. Or "s" is the normal form in its
                                        sequence, and "$" is a less usual variation. The ASCII sequence I
                                        haven't thought of relating it to at all (except it might be a little
                                        aware of alphabetic order which is the same as ASCII order).

                                        My idea with "q" is a little different. It's for speaking formally,
                                        it's a very fancy letter. But also-- this is my plan, but I'm not
                                        really sure how well it'll work out-- it's a variation of several
                                        different sequences. So as well as q-k-x-% there's also q-g-y-j-i or
                                        something. I'd like to have a lot of overlapping sequences, but I'm
                                        still experimenting to see what's reasonable. I want to allow for
                                        certain ambiguities, while still being readable.

                                        It all has to be developed together pretty organically. Because like
                                        if there's a word "kgk" then that could be spelled "kqk" or "xqx" or
                                        "qqq". Then if there's a word "kgg" that couldn't be spelled "xqx"
                                        but it could also be spelled "qqq". There's all different levels on
                                        which that conflict could be resolved, though: Maybe "kqk" and "kgg"
                                        have very different meanings and wouldn't show up in the same context,
                                        or maybe you could know not to q-ize the last letter so the
                                        distinction shows. So it's hard to think what ambiguities will be
                                        acceptable without knowing what all of the vocabulary is and how it
                                        hangs together and how it's used.

                                        I'm not actually going to finalize anything ever, it's a language
                                        that's supposed to be always changing. New people who learn the
                                        language are also inventing as they learn it, either intentionally or
                                        by making errors that are echoed instead of corrected by their
                                        instructor. :D So there will always be changes to the sequences, like
                                        maybe "<" could be added as a variation of "k" and also of "c", and
                                        then playing around with it in context we'd feel out where it can be
                                        used and where it's confusing.

                                        Not that I always want to avoid confusion! There might be times when
                                        the ambiguity of "qqq" or "<<<" is just what you're looking for. So
                                        i'll also be exploring the spaces I create to find interesting
                                        ambiguities and confusions to make use of.

                                        <3,
                                        la stela selckiku
                                        aka
                                        mungojelly
                                        aka
                                        bret-ram
                                        aka
                                        veret'he
                                        aka
                                        brett
                                        aka
                                        j
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