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Re: OT?: Glottal Stop Reform!!!!

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  • R A Brown
    ... Start? Catch on? In Britain it started decades ago and during my lifetime has caught on like wild fire. The most common pronunciation of _glottis_ among
    Message 1 of 26 , Apr 30, 2010
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      Lensman wrote:
      > I have a suggestion and I bet if we all started doing it, it would catch on.
      > My suggestion is to pronounce the word glottis and all words derived from it
      > that maintain the "tt" like thus: /glɒʔɪs/ ...

      Start? Catch on?

      In Britain it started decades ago and during my lifetime has
      caught on like wild fire. The most common pronunciation of
      _glottis_ among generations younger than me is surely
      ['glQ?Is]. Intervocalic and syllable final /t/ is most
      often pronounced [?]

      BTW I've just realized that I've been using [] and //
      incorrectly in my replies regarding "Introducing myself" -
      it your /p/ which has the allophones [p b p' b_h].

      > How great would it be for *glottal stop *to be onomatopoeic? What's everyone
      > say?

      It is, and they do it ;)


      --
      Ray
      ==================================
      http://www.carolandray.plus.com
      ==================================
      Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
      There's none too old to learn.
      [WELSH PROVERB]
    • Peter Bleackley
      ... To British English speakers, glo al stops sound uneducated. Pete
      Message 2 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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        staving Lensman:
        > I have a suggestion and I bet if we all started doing it, it would catch on.
        > My suggestion is to pronounce the word glottis and all words derived from it
        > that maintain the "tt" like thus: /glɒʔɪs/ ...
        > How great would it be for *glottal stop *to be onomatopoeic? What's everyone
        > say?
        >

        To British English speakers, glo'al stops sound uneducated.

        Pete
      • R A Brown
        ... People started doing it way before I was born. Your bet would safe. I _has_ caught on, and on and on ;) ... While this was certainly true in the 1950s and
        Message 3 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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          Peter Bleackley wrote:
          > staving Lensman:
          >> I have a suggestion and I bet if we all started doing it, it would
          >> catch on.

          People started doing it way before I was born. Your bet
          would safe. I _has_ caught on, and on and on ;)

          >> My suggestion is to pronounce the word glottis and all words derived
          >> from it
          >> that maintain the "tt" like thus: /glɒʔɪs/ ...
          >> How great would it be for *glottal stop *to be onomatopoeic? What's
          >> everyone say?
          >>
          > To British English speakers, glo'al stops sound uneducated.

          While this was certainly true in the 1950s and 1960s, I
          don't think it's universally true today.

          I've become more more aware since, I think the 1980s, and
          certainly since the 1990s of more and more *clearly educated
          speakers*, both on radio and television and among people I
          meet in everyday life who use the glo'al stop as an
          allophone of /t/ in medial and final positions. Personally,
          I still don't like it - but that's a prejudice of my
          upbringing. I would be very surprised if none of the Brits
          on this list in generations younger me did not in fact
          regularly use the glo'al stop in everyday speech.

          On the other hand, the glo'al stop is, I admit, more likely
          than not to be heard among poorly educated Brits. But it
          will be one of several features, e.g. pronouncing /T/ as
          [f]; using either _was_ (in southern England & in Wales) or
          _were_ (in northern England - never really sure the Scots)
          as an invariant past tense of "to be"; confusing preterite
          and perfect participle forms, such as "I done it", "I seen
          him yesterday", "I've wrote to him already" etc., etc.

          --
          Ray
          ==================================
          http://www.carolandray.plus.com
          ==================================
          Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
          There's none too old to learn.
          [WELSH PROVERB]
        • Arnt Richard Johansen
          ... I hope you re referring only to [t] elision. Or are my efforts to pre-gloʔttalise my voiceless stoʔps to sound less liʔke a foreigner just a waste of
          Message 4 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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            On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 09:28:23AM +0100, Peter Bleackley wrote:
            > staving Lensman:
            > >I have a suggestion and I bet if we all started doing it, it would catch
            > >on.
            > >My suggestion is to pronounce the word glottis and all words derived from
            > >it
            > >that maintain the "tt" like thus: /glɒʔɪs/ ...
            > >How great would it be for *glottal stop *to be onomatopoeic? What's
            > >everyone
            > >say?
            > >
            >
            > To British English speakers, glo'al stops sound uneducated.

            I hope you're referring only to [t] elision. Or are my efforts to pre-gloʔttalise my voiceless stoʔps to sound less liʔke a foreigner just a waste of time?

            --
            Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
            Please Note: Some Quantum Physics Theories Suggest That When the
            Consumer Is Not Directly Observing This Product, It May Cease to Exist
            or Will Exist Only in a Vague and Undetermined State.
            --Susan Hewitt and Edward Subitzky
          • Peter Bleackley
            ... At least some of those speakers are clearly affecting the speech of the less well educated so as to appear cool. I m sure that Jonathan Ross (for example)
            Message 5 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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              staving R A Brown:

              >>>
              >> To British English speakers, glo'al stops sound uneducated.
              >
              > While this was certainly true in the 1950s and 1960s, I don't think it's
              > universally true today.
              >
              > I've become more more aware since, I think the 1980s, and certainly
              > since the 1990s of more and more *clearly educated speakers*, both on
              > radio and television and among people I meet in everyday life who use
              > the glo'al stop as an allophone of /t/ in medial and final positions.
              > Personally, I still don't like it - but that's a prejudice of my
              > upbringing. I would be very surprised if none of the Brits on this list
              > in generations younger me did not in fact regularly use the glo'al stop
              > in everyday speech.
              >

              At least some of those speakers are clearly affecting the speech of the
              less well educated so as to appear cool. I'm sure that Jonathan Ross
              (for example) is quite capable of pronouncing his medial /t/s if he so
              chooses.

              Pete
            • And Rosta
              ... Assuming the possibility of ambisyllabicity , the pattern is -- to simplify a bit or a lot -- that the glottalized or glottaled forms occur only in coda
              Message 6 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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                Arnt Richard Johansen, On 04/05/2010 13:23:
                > On Tue, May 04, 2010 at 09:28:23AM +0100, Peter Bleackley wrote:
                >> staving Lensman:
                >>> I have a suggestion and I bet if we all started doing it, it would catch
                >>> on.
                >>> My suggestion is to pronounce the word glottis and all words derived from
                >>> it
                >>> that maintain the "tt" like thus: /glɒʔɪs/ ...
                >>> How great would it be for *glottal stop *to be onomatopoeic? What's
                >>> everyone
                >>> say?
                >>>
                >> To British English speakers, glo'al stops sound uneducated.
                >
                > I hope you're referring only to [t] elision. Or are my efforts to pre-gloʔttalise my voiceless stoʔps to sound less liʔke a foreigner just a waste of time?

                Assuming the possibility of 'ambisyllabicity', the pattern is -- to simplify a bit or a lot -- that the glottalized or glottaled forms occur only in coda position; when the coda position is also an onset position, the acrolectal & more formal pronunciation is to drop the glottalization, and the basilectal & more informal is to keep it.

                --And.
              • Roger Mills
                ... Medial glo al stop doesn t occur AFAIK in US speech. Nor [f] for /T/ (maybe in black speech?). But _was_ (not were ) and the other features do, and have
                Message 7 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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                  --- On Tue, 5/4/10, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:

                  > On the other hand, the glo'al stop is, I admit, more likely
                  > than not to be heard among poorly educated Brits.  But
                  > it will be one of several features, e.g. pronouncing /T/ as
                  > [f]; using either _was_ (in southern England & in Wales)
                  > or _were_ (in northern England - never really sure the
                  > Scots) as an invariant past tense of "to be"; confusing
                  > preterite and perfect participle forms, such as "I done it",
                  > "I seen him yesterday", "I've wrote to him already" etc.,
                  > etc.
                  >
                  Medial glo'al stop doesn't occur AFAIK in US speech. Nor [f] for /T/ (maybe in black speech?). But _was_ (not 'were') and the other features do, and have for a long time. Whether they're holdovers from all the ancient Scots/Irish/Anglo immigrations, or independent developments, is another matter.

                  In my grade school classes in the 1940s, those features were prominent in the speech of kids clearly of non-middle-class backgrounds (but of all the local ethnicities, including German and Scandinavian). Along with "ain't", the bane of the teachers :-)))). And they're still commonly heard.

                  My mother once called my father's office and asked if he'd arrived. She got his 2nd or 3rd in command, who answered "he hasn't came in yet". That was enough to convince her that he was an illiterate boor. I got to know the man during summer jobs in the office, and he was a quite decent guy, educated and articulate enough, and I concluded that his statement was more likely just a slip of the tongue....(Dear Mother, in case you can't tell, was a bit of a snob....)
                • Lars Finsen
                  ... Good, I like uneducated speech. LEF
                  Message 8 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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                    Peter Bleackley wrote:

                    > quoting Lensman:
                    >> I have a suggestion and I bet if we all started doing it, it would
                    >> catch on.
                    >> My suggestion is to pronounce the word glottis and all words
                    >> derived from it that maintain the "tt" like thus: /glɒʔɪs/ ...
                    >> How great would it be for *glottal stop *to be onomatopoeic?
                    >> What's everyone say?
                    >>
                    >
                    > To British English speakers, glo'al stops sound uneducated.

                    Good, I like uneducated speech.

                    LEF
                  • Eric Christopherson
                    ... Final glottal stop for /t/ does, to some extent. In my speech I think it s mostly an allegro phenomenon, but I m not sure. Something I ve noticed within
                    Message 9 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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                      On May 4, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Roger Mills wrote:

                      > --- On Tue, 5/4/10, R A Brown <ray@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> On the other hand, the glo'al stop is, I admit, more likely
                      >> than not to be heard among poorly educated Brits. But
                      >> it will be one of several features, e.g. pronouncing /T/ as
                      >> [f]; using either _was_ (in southern England & in Wales)
                      >> or _were_ (in northern England - never really sure the
                      >> Scots) as an invariant past tense of "to be"; confusing
                      >> preterite and perfect participle forms, such as "I done it",
                      >> "I seen him yesterday", "I've wrote to him already" etc.,
                      >> etc.
                      >>
                      > Medial glo'al stop doesn't occur AFAIK in US speech. Nor [f] for /T/ (maybe in black speech?). But _was_ (not 'were') and the other features do, and have for a long time. Whether they're holdovers from all the ancient Scots/Irish/Anglo immigrations, or independent developments, is another matter.

                      Final glottal stop for /t/ does, to some extent. In my speech I think it's mostly an allegro phenomenon, but I'm not sure. Something I've noticed within the last year or so is that I almost always pronounce /t/ as [?] at the end of a word when the next word begins in /w j r/. I'm not sure what would motivate that, or how long I've been doing it, or if other people do the same.

                      Fairly frequently I notice people pronouncing /tn=/ (as in _kitten_) as [?In] or [?1n] or maybe [?@n]. It seems to me most people who pronounce it like that are in their late teens or early 20s, at least around here.

                      I actually use a syllabic n and not vowel + n, but I can't tell if the consonant before it is [t] or [?]. When I pay attention to what my tongue's doing as I say /tn=/, there does seem to be alveolar contact before the glottal stop, but a) it doesn't really sound different and b) I'm not sure I articulate it the same in nondeliberate speech.
                    • Roger Mills
                      On Tue, 4 May 2010 21:47:54 -0500, Eric Christopherson ... mostly an allegro phenomenon, but I m not sure. I think it s quite common, but
                      Message 10 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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                        On Tue, 4 May 2010 21:47:54 -0500, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...>
                        wrote:


                        >Final glottal stop for /t/ does, to some extent. In my speech I think it's
                        mostly an allegro phenomenon, but I'm not sure.

                        I think it's quite common, but esp. in allegro.

                        >Something I've noticed within the last year or so is that I almost always
                        pronounce /t/ as [?] at the end of a word when the next word begins in /w j r/.

                        That strikes me as odd; I can have [?] before almost any C....

                        >Fairly frequently I notice people pronouncing /tn=/ (as in _kitten_) as
                        [?In] or [?1n] or maybe [?@n]. It seems to me most people who pronounce it
                        like that are in their late teens or early 20s, at least around here.

                        I'm a lot older than that, and I do it :-))))
                        >
                        >I actually use a syllabic n and not vowel + n, but I can't tell if the
                        consonant before it is [t] or [?]. When I pay attention to what my tongue's
                        doing as I say /tn=/, there does seem to be alveolar contact before the
                        glottal stop, but a) it doesn't really sound different and b) I'm not sure I
                        articulate it the same in nondeliberate speech.

                        As I think about this, I think in many cases it's a case of _unreleased [t]_
                        (which I'll symbolize with " t| ") accompanied by simultaneous glottal
                        closure. Evidence for this is the affrication usually seen in e.g. "eat
                        yet?" [i?t|'sEt]. In "kitten" etc., the closures are released into the nasal
                        passage. There are some cases where it's definitely a [?]-- e.g. "Fenton"
                        (a town in Mich.), "Clinton" etc. which in ordinary (not allegro) speech for
                        me and many usually come out as ['fE~?n=], ['klI~?n=] with no contact of the
                        tongue with the alveolum until it's time for the [n=].

                        I wonder if a following [@] or syllabic nasal triggers these? Note we
                        usually say "sitting" ['sItIN], but g-dropping "sittin' " ['sI?n=]

                        Sometimes there can be some amusing assimilations-- "Don't go!" [do~Nk|'go]
                        or (in Blackjack) "Hit me!" ['hI?p|mi] (using k|, p| for unreleased, which
                        are very quick and barely perceptible)....
                      • R A Brown
                        ... I m sure even the poorly educated _can_ also pronounce [t] between vowels - and probably would do so if imitating (either in mockery or by being
                        Message 11 of 26 , May 4, 2010
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                          Peter Bleackley wrote:
                          > staving R A Brown:
                          >
                          >>>>
                          >>> To British English speakers, glo'al stops sound uneducated.
                          >>
                          >> While this was certainly true in the 1950s and 1960s, I don't think it's
                          >> universally true today.
                          >>
                          >> I've become more more aware since, I think the 1980s, and certainly
                          >> since the 1990s of more and more *clearly educated speakers*, both on
                          >> radio and television and among people I meet in everyday life who use
                          >> the glo'al stop as an allophone of /t/ in medial and final positions.
                          >> Personally, I still don't like it - but that's a prejudice of my
                          >> upbringing. I would be very surprised if none of the Brits on this list
                          >> in generations younger me did not in fact regularly use the glo'al stop
                          >> in everyday speech.
                          >>
                          >
                          > At least some of those speakers are clearly affecting the speech of the
                          > less well educated so as to appear cool. I'm sure that Jonathan Ross
                          > (for example) is quite capable of pronouncing his medial /t/s if he so
                          > chooses.

                          I'm sure even the poorly educated _can_ also pronounce [t]
                          between vowels - and probably would do so if imitating
                          (either in mockery or by being pretentious) the speech of a
                          "toff."

                          What you write may well be true of Jonathan Ross - but I
                          wasn't thinking of him (he's not a person I'd normally be
                          listening to), but to younger people I've heard who are
                          clearly educated but retain this feature.

                          I was thinking also of colleagues I've worked with who were
                          quite certainly educated and whose speech generally
                          exhibited what one would expect from educated people - but
                          they did (and presumably still do) pronounce medial and
                          final /t/ as [?].

                          It does seem to me to be partly regional and also a
                          generational thing. Maybe I'm more sensitive to it than many
                          others because, being brought up in south east England in
                          the 1940s & 50s, it was deemed to very much a mark of the
                          "uneducated" and associated particularly with 'low-class
                          Londoners.'

                          When I moved to Newport in South Wales in 1968, I discovered
                          it was not confined to London! I had to get used to, for
                          example, _party_ being pronounce [p_h&:?i] or even, in the
                          dockland areas of Cardiff as [p_hE:?i]. But such
                          pronunciations were definitely "uneducated."

                          As I wrote, its mainly in the last 20 to 30 years I've
                          noticed a gradual spread of this use of the glottal stop
                          among peoples whom one could not otherwise classify as
                          uneducated.

                          --
                          Ray
                          ==================================
                          http://www.carolandray.plus.com
                          ==================================
                          Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
                          There's none too old to learn.
                          [WELSH PROVERB]
                        • Douglas Koller
                          ... In my idiolect, certainly in allegro speech, final p , t , and k , don t appear as glottal stops. The tongue is in the appropriate POA, but the plosive
                          Message 12 of 26 , May 5, 2010
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                            ----- "Roger Mills" <romiltz@...> wrote:

                            > On Tue, 4 May 2010 21:47:54 -0500, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...>
                            > wrote:

                            > >Final glottal stop for /t/ does, to some extent. In my speech I think it's
                            > mostly an allegro phenomenon, but I'm not sure.

                            > I think it's quite common, but esp. in allegro.

                            In my idiolect, certainly in allegro speech, final "p", "t", and "k", don't appear as glottal stops. The tongue is in the appropriate POA, but the plosive release of air doesn't occur. To my delight, as I was learning Cantonese, it works the same way. So, "kap" sounds like "cup", "git" sounds like "git" (which in American is more often used for "Scram!" than "idiot") and "lak" sounds like "luck". I was so thrilled!

                            That said, those syllables in Shanghainese reduce those endings (Taiwanese straddles the fence) to the glottal stop. Beware English speakers, by your great grand-childrens' time, it will be a fixture. :)

                            Kou
                          • Adam Walker
                            ... What do you mean by Taiwanese straddles the fence ? Taiwanese is full of phonological oddities, but I m not sure what you meant here. Adam
                            Message 13 of 26 , May 5, 2010
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                              On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Douglas Koller <laokou@...> wrote:

                              > ----- "Roger Mills" <romiltz@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > On Tue, 4 May 2010 21:47:54 -0500, Eric Christopherson <
                              > rakko@...>
                              > > wrote:
                              >
                              > > >Final glottal stop for /t/ does, to some extent. In my speech I think
                              > it's
                              > > mostly an allegro phenomenon, but I'm not sure.
                              >
                              > > I think it's quite common, but esp. in allegro.
                              >
                              > In my idiolect, certainly in allegro speech, final "p", "t", and "k", don't
                              > appear as glottal stops. The tongue is in the appropriate POA, but the
                              > plosive release of air doesn't occur. To my delight, as I was learning
                              > Cantonese, it works the same way. So, "kap" sounds like "cup", "git" sounds
                              > like "git" (which in American is more often used for "Scram!" than "idiot")
                              > and "lak" sounds like "luck". I was so thrilled!
                              >
                              > That said, those syllables in Shanghainese reduce those endings (Taiwanese
                              > straddles the fence) to the glottal stop. Beware English speakers, by your
                              > great grand-childrens' time, it will be a fixture. :)
                              >
                              > Kou
                              >

                              What do you mean by "Taiwanese straddles the fence"? Taiwanese is full of
                              phonological oddities, but I'm not sure what you meant here.

                              Adam
                            • Douglas Koller
                              ... In Cantonese, final p , t , k , universally do not reduce to final glottal stop (at least not formally or in the romanization). In Shanghainese, what
                              Message 14 of 26 , May 5, 2010
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                                ----- "Adam Walker" <carraxan@...> wrote:

                                > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Douglas Koller <laokou@...> wrote:

                                > > In my idiolect, certainly in allegro speech, final "p", "t", and "k", don't
                                > > appear as glottal stops. The tongue is in the appropriate POA, but the
                                > > plosive release of air doesn't occur. To my delight, as I was learning
                                > > Cantonese, it works the same way. So, "kap" sounds like "cup", "git" sounds
                                > > like "git" (which in American is more often used for "Scram!" than "idiot")
                                > > and "lak" sounds like "luck". I was so thrilled!
                                > >
                                > > That said, those syllables in Shanghainese reduce those endings (Taiwanese
                                > > straddles the fence) to the glottal stop. Beware English speakers, by your
                                > > great grand-childrens' time, it will be a fixture. :)

                                > What do you mean by "Taiwanese straddles the fence"? Taiwanese is full of
                                > phonological oddities, but I'm not sure what you meant here.

                                In Cantonese, final "p", "t", "k", universally do not reduce to final glottal stop (at least not formally or in the romanization). In Shanghainese, what was final "p", "t", "k" has universally reduced to a glottal stop. In Taiwanese (read: Minnan), some of those syllables (4th and 8th tone) keep the final "p", "t", "k"; some reduce to the glottal stop. Mixed bag, straddling the fence.

                                Kou
                              • Henrik Theiling
                                Hi! ... Apropos Minnan: in Mindong, I found a very well-designed romanisation (e.g. compared to Vietnamese) for a tone language:
                                Message 15 of 26 , May 7, 2010
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                                  Hi!

                                  Douglas Koller writes:
                                  >...
                                  > In Cantonese, final "p", "t", "k", universally do not reduce to
                                  > final glottal stop (at least not formally or in the
                                  > romanization). In Shanghainese, what was final "p", "t", "k" has
                                  > universally reduced to a glottal stop. In Taiwanese (read: Minnan),
                                  > some of those syllables (4th and 8th tone) keep the final "p", "t",
                                  > "k"; some reduce to the glottal stop. Mixed bag, straddling the
                                  > fence.

                                  Apropos Minnan: in Mindong, I found a very well-designed romanisation
                                  (e.g. compared to Vietnamese) for a tone language:

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foochow_Romanized

                                  It solves the space conflict of diacritics for vowel quality and
                                  tone by putting all vowel quality diacritics below the vowel, and the
                                  tone diacritics above. I think it really looks quite beautiful in
                                  action:

                                  http://cdo.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A0ng-u%C3%A2-c%C3%AA

                                  In contrast to Vietname, there is always enough space for the
                                  diacritic, because there's no need for diacritic stacking.

                                  Also, only 'standard' diacritics are used, so most Unicode fonts and
                                  renderers display it nicely without special considerations of Mindong
                                  (e.g. in contrast to Minnan romanisation, which uses an unusual
                                  right dot above, IIRC).

                                  What do you think? I thought this was worth thinking about for
                                  upcoming Conlangs. :-)

                                  **Henrik
                                • Eric Christopherson
                                  ... Assuming you mean something like [i?t_}SEt] (_} is no audible release in X-SAMPA), I don t understand how the affrication follows from unreleased +
                                  Message 16 of 26 , May 19, 2010
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                                    On May 4, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Roger Mills wrote:

                                    > On Tue, 4 May 2010 21:47:54 -0500, Eric Christopherson <rakko@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >> Final glottal stop for /t/ does, to some extent. In my speech I think it's
                                    > mostly an allegro phenomenon, but I'm not sure.
                                    >
                                    > I think it's quite common, but esp. in allegro.
                                    >
                                    >> Something I've noticed within the last year or so is that I almost always
                                    > pronounce /t/ as [?] at the end of a word when the next word begins in /w j r/.
                                    >
                                    > That strikes me as odd; I can have [?] before almost any C....
                                    >
                                    >> Fairly frequently I notice people pronouncing /tn=/ (as in _kitten_) as
                                    > [?In] or [?1n] or maybe [?@n]. It seems to me most people who pronounce it
                                    > like that are in their late teens or early 20s, at least around here.
                                    >
                                    > I'm a lot older than that, and I do it :-))))
                                    >>
                                    >> I actually use a syllabic n and not vowel + n, but I can't tell if the
                                    > consonant before it is [t] or [?]. When I pay attention to what my tongue's
                                    > doing as I say /tn=/, there does seem to be alveolar contact before the
                                    > glottal stop, but a) it doesn't really sound different and b) I'm not sure I
                                    > articulate it the same in nondeliberate speech.
                                    >
                                    > As I think about this, I think in many cases it's a case of _unreleased [t]_
                                    > (which I'll symbolize with " t| ") accompanied by simultaneous glottal
                                    > closure. Evidence for this is the affrication usually seen in e.g. "eat
                                    > yet?" [i?t|'sEt].

                                    Assuming you mean something like [i?t_}SEt] (_} is "no audible release" in X-SAMPA), I don't understand how the affrication follows from unreleased + simultaneous glottal closure.

                                    > In "kitten" etc., the closures are released into the nasal
                                    > passage. There are some cases where it's definitely a [?]-- e.g. "Fenton"
                                    > (a town in Mich.), "Clinton" etc. which in ordinary (not allegro) speech for
                                    > me and many usually come out as ['fE~?n=], ['klI~?n=] with no contact of the
                                    > tongue with the alveolum until it's time for the [n=].
                                    >
                                    > I wonder if a following [@] or syllabic nasal triggers these? Note we
                                    > usually say "sitting" ['sItIN], but g-dropping "sittin' " ['sI?n=]
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes there can be some amusing assimilations-- "Don't go!" [do~Nk|'go]
                                    > or (in Blackjack) "Hit me!" ['hI?p|mi] (using k|, p| for unreleased, which
                                    > are very quick and barely perceptible)....
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