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Re: Reflexive & Reciprocal Marked on the Verb

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  • Matthew
    ... Neither of them are grammatical French, hence the asterisk of *ungrammaticissity *I good dog get go I went and got a good dog The grammatical sentence
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 3, 2008
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      Philip Newton wrote:
      > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 03:30, Matthew <ave.jor@...> wrote:
      >
      >> I know that French sometimes uses the number agreement to disambiguate, but
      >> I can't think of a context right now.
      >> I know for sure it doesn't use it to disambiguate for reciprocity vs
      >> reflexivity though because
      >> *nous s'embrassons
      >> *nous nous embrasse
      >>
      >
      > Neither of those looks like grammatical French to me.
      >
      > Are you sure those are the correct forms?
      >
      > (I thought that "s'" was only used with third person subjects, and
      > that the verb must always agree with the expressed subject.)
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      Neither of them are grammatical French, hence the asterisk of
      *ungrammaticissity
      *I good dog get go
      I went and got a good dog

      The grammatical sentence would be :
      nous nous embrass-ons
      we ourselves kiss-1PL.PRS.IND

      and your kinda right, s' is used with grammatical third persons (note
      that in many dialects /on/ is a first person semantically but a third
      person grammatically. on dors : someone is sleeping / we are sleeping. )
      thus :
      *nous m'embrassons (first person singular reflexive, where there should
      be a plural)
      *nous nous embrasse (verb agrees with the wrong number).

      My point was that French /didn't/ work the way I suggested in that
      context, it only uses number to disambiguate in something to do with the
      pronoun "leur", but damned if I can remember which meaning, or what
      construction :(
    • René Uittenbogaard
      I asked my francophone friends some time ago, they gave me the following: Ils se regardent. They look at each other. Ils se regardent dans le miroir. They look
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 3, 2008
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        I asked my francophone friends some time ago, they gave me the following:

        Ils se regardent.
        They look at each other.

        Ils se regardent dans le miroir.
        They look at themselves (!) in the mirror.

        I suppose you could disambiguate to some extent by using "l'un l'autre":

        Ils (se?) regardent l'un l'autre.
        They look at each other.

        But maybe a real francophone can elaborate on this.

        René
      • Eldin Raigmore
        Well, it looks like I asked at least one _good_ question! Thanks, René Uittenbogaard, Matthew, Philip Newton, Lars Finsen, Herman Miller, John Vertical, Aidan
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 3, 2008
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          Well, it looks like I asked at least one _good_ question!
          Thanks, René Uittenbogaard, Matthew, Philip Newton, Lars Finsen, Herman
          Miller, John Vertical, Aidan Grey, and Michael Poxon.
        • Jeffrey Jones
          On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:38:05 -0400, Eldin Raigmore ... (cross-posted) I have a newish exolang that I ve been playing with on and off, called klop, for lack of
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 4, 2008
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            On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:38:05 -0400, Eldin Raigmore
            <eldin_raigmore@...> wrote:
            >
            > How do your 'langs (whether nat- or con-) handle this?
            > Do they just not distinguish "reflexive" from "reciprocal"?
            > Do they distinguish it by marking the verb with, say, a "voice"
            > or "version" of "reflexive" or "reciprocal" (not the same)?
            > Or do they mark the difference elsewhere in the clause, say by either a
            > reflexive pronoun or a reciprocal pronoun or both?

            (cross-posted)

            I have a newish exolang that I've been playing with on and off, called klop, for
            lack of something better. It doesn't have any phonology or vocabulary, so I
            have to use cryptic abbreviations mixed with English glosses.

            k>l see. "I see you." (direct voice)
            k<l see. "You see me." (inverse voice)
            kRl see. "We see each other." (reciprocal voice)
            mX see. "We see ourselves." (reflexive voice)

            To answer a question you didn't ask:

            q=k. "Who are you?"
            k=n cat. "I am a cat."
            p=a eggman. "They are the eggmen."

            Jeff
          • Jim Henry
            On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Eldin Raigmore ... gzb has separate reflexive and reciprocal verb suffixes, although it doesn t otherwise mark object on the
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 5, 2008
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              On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Eldin Raigmore
              <eldin_raigmore@...> wrote:

              > How do your 'langs (whether nat- or con-) handle this?
              > Do they just not distinguish "reflexive" from "reciprocal"?

              gzb has separate reflexive and reciprocal verb suffixes,
              although it doesn't otherwise mark object on the verb
              (marking subject on the verb is optional, usually done only
              when there is no explicit subject elsewhere in the clause).

              Esperanto marks reflexive with the reflexive pronoun "si"
              in the accusative,

              Ili kisis sin.
              They-NOM kissed themselves-ACC.

              The reciprocal is:

              Ili kisis unu la alian.
              They-NOM kissed one-NOM the other-ACC.

              --
              Jim Henry
              http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/conlang/fluency-survey.html
              Conlang fluency survey -- there's still time to participate before
              I analyze the results and write the article
            • caeruleancentaur
              ... Senjecas has a reflexive pronoun potyus. mus potyum per kusa = I kissed myself. sus potyum per kusa = he kissed himself. potyus is also the intensive
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 7, 2008
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                > Eldin Raigmore <eldin_raigmore@...> wrote:
                >
                > How do your 'langs (whether nat- or con-) handle this?
                > Do they just not distinguish "reflexive" from "reciprocal"?
                > Do they distinguish it by marking the verb with, say, a "voice"
                > or "version" of "reflexive" or "reciprocal" (not the same)?
                > Or do they mark the difference elsewhere in the clause, say by
                > either a reflexive pronoun or a reciprocal pronoun or both?
                >

                Senjecas has a reflexive pronoun 'potyus.'

                mus potyum per kusa = I kissed myself.
                sus potyum per kusa = he kissed himself.

                'potyus' is also the intensive pronoun when used attributively.

                potyu mus anthom per kusa = I myself kissed the flower.

                The reciprocal pronoun is 'anyanyuso.' It is found only in the
                genitive and accusative cases.

                sues anyanyun per kusa = they kissed each other.

                Charlie
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