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i cant seem to understand mora

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  • Reilly Schlaier
    i cant quite get my head around the idea why the onset consonant doesnt count and why the coda is sometimes a mora and sometimes not
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 30, 2007
      i cant quite get my head around the idea
      why the onset consonant doesnt count
      and why the coda is sometimes a mora and sometimes not
    • Dirk Elzinga
      ... Yes, they are puzzles. It has been argued for one language (I think it was Arrernte) that onsets can be relevant in stress placement. IIRC, the first
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 30, 2007
        On Dec 30, 2007 5:32 PM, Reilly Schlaier <schlaier@...> wrote:

        > i cant quite get my head around the idea
        > why the onset consonant doesnt count
        > and why the coda is sometimes a mora and sometimes not
        >

        Yes, they are puzzles. It has been argued for one language (I think it was
        Arrernte) that onsets can be relevant in stress placement. IIRC, the first
        syllable is stressed unless it has no onset, in which case the second
        syllable is stressed. But don't quote me on this; I'm pretty fuzzy on the
        facts and a quick Google check didn't reveal any confirming or contradictory
        information.

        As for coda consonants being moraic or not; this is a genuine option allowed
        languages. For example, codas in Latin are moraic, but codas in Shoshoni
        are not (Shoshoni is a Uto-Aztecan language spoken throughout much of the
        North American Great Basin; it is the language I do my field work on). It's
        usually very easy to tell if a language has moraic codas. If the stress
        pattern of a language is "quantity-sensitive" (that's the technical term),
        then stress will be attracted to heavy syllables. If the only syllables that
        attract stress are those with long vowels but not those with coda
        consonants, then codas are not moraic. This is exactly what happens in
        Shoshoni:

        nátsattàmahkànte 'tied up'
        óosàantò'ippeh 'rusty'

        (I'm using the practical orthography: <ts> is an affricate (alveolar for
        Western Shoshoni, interdental for Goshute), <hk> a voiceless velar
        fricative, and <e> a high central unrounded vowel; doubly written vowels and
        consonants are long)

        Stress in Shoshoni falls on odd-numbered moras, counting from the left edge.
        Note that while the geminate <tt> in 'tied up' closes the second syllable
        and opens the third, it doesn't make the second syllable heavy. In 'rusty',
        the long vowels are stressed because they are each two moras.

        Dirk
      • Reilly Schlaier
        wow, that was very clear i think i get it now that was much better than the wikipedia description thanks alot
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 30, 2007
          wow, that was very clear
          i think i get it now
          that was much better than the wikipedia description
          thanks alot
        • Mark J. Reed
          Codas in Latin are moraic? Huh. I havent studied latin verse, but i would not have guessed that to be the case. I know that codas are moraic in Japanese...
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 30, 2007
            Codas in Latin are moraic? Huh. I havent studied latin verse, but i
            would not have guessed that to be the case. I know that codas are
            moraic in Japanese...


            On 12/30/07, Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzinga@...> wrote:
            > On Dec 30, 2007 5:32 PM, Reilly Schlaier <schlaier@...> wrote:
            >
            > > i cant quite get my head around the idea
            > > why the onset consonant doesnt count
            > > and why the coda is sometimes a mora and sometimes not
            > >
            >
            > Yes, they are puzzles. It has been argued for one language (I think it was
            > Arrernte) that onsets can be relevant in stress placement. IIRC, the first
            > syllable is stressed unless it has no onset, in which case the second
            > syllable is stressed. But don't quote me on this; I'm pretty fuzzy on the
            > facts and a quick Google check didn't reveal any confirming or contradictory
            > information.
            >
            > As for coda consonants being moraic or not; this is a genuine option allowed
            > languages. For example, codas in Latin are moraic, but codas in Shoshoni
            > are not (Shoshoni is a Uto-Aztecan language spoken throughout much of the
            > North American Great Basin; it is the language I do my field work on). It's
            > usually very easy to tell if a language has moraic codas. If the stress
            > pattern of a language is "quantity-sensitive" (that's the technical term),
            > then stress will be attracted to heavy syllables. If the only syllables that
            > attract stress are those with long vowels but not those with coda
            > consonants, then codas are not moraic. This is exactly what happens in
            > Shoshoni:
            >
            > nátsattàmahkànte 'tied up'
            > óosàantò'ippeh 'rusty'
            >
            > (I'm using the practical orthography: <ts> is an affricate (alveolar for
            > Western Shoshoni, interdental for Goshute), <hk> a voiceless velar
            > fricative, and <e> a high central unrounded vowel; doubly written vowels and
            > consonants are long)
            >
            > Stress in Shoshoni falls on odd-numbered moras, counting from the left edge.
            > Note that while the geminate <tt> in 'tied up' closes the second syllable
            > and opens the third, it doesn't make the second syllable heavy. In 'rusty',
            > the long vowels are stressed because they are each two moras.
            >
            > Dirk
            >


            --
            Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
          • Henrik Theiling
            Hi! ... You can see it in stress patterns: e.g. in angellus /aN- gel-lus/, the second syllable with (short) _e_ is stressed because the second syllable is
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 31, 2007
              Hi!

              Mark J. Reed writes:
              > Codas in Latin are moraic? Huh. I havent studied latin verse, but i
              > would not have guessed that to be the case. I know that codas are
              > moraic in Japanese...

              You can see it in stress patterns: e.g. in 'angellus' /aN-'gel-lus/,
              the second syllable with (short) _e_ is stressed because the second
              syllable is heavy (bimoraic) due to the coda _l_ in _gel_. If there
              was a single _l_ (*/'aN-ge-lus/), the first syllable would be
              stressed, because the second syllable would be light (unimoraic).

              **Henrik
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