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USAGE: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?

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  • Benct Philip Jonsson
    Well, the subject line says it all: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German? Sure _paidía_ is feminine in Greek, but one can never be sure. It might even be
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 28 4:09 AM
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      Well, the subject line says it all:
      What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?
      Sure _paidía_ is feminine in Greek, but
      one can never be sure. It might even be
      neuter plural! ;-)
      --

      /BP 8^)>
      --
      Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

      Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
      (Tacitus)

      I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
      Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...
    • Kalle Bergman
      ... Okay, not an answer to your question, and tangential to the subject, but... what gender is wikipedia in swedish? En wikipedia , ett wikipedia ... it s
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 28 5:05 AM
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        > What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?

        Okay, not an answer to your question, and tangential
        to the subject, but... what gender is "wikipedia" in
        swedish? "En wikipedia", "ett wikipedia"... it's
        neither, right, because "wikipedia" is a proper name?

        (Begin rant)

        Makes me think of my dad's dialect, which has a
        special set of clitics used with names of people, when
        those names are used to refer to a person by that
        name. (So, for instance, you use the clitic when
        saying things like "I met Ove yesterday", but not when
        saying "His name is Ove", because in the latter case,
        "Ove" refers to the name itself, rather than to
        someone called "Ove"). The clitics were en-/n- in the
        case of men, and a- in the case of women, so you got
        things like:

        Jag såg n'Ove
        I saw Ove

        And

        Jag såg a'Karin
        I saw Karin

        I think it's an interesting feature.

        /Kalle B

        --- Benct Philip Jonsson <bpjonsson@...> skrev:

        > Well, the subject line says it all:
        > What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?
        > Sure _paidía_ is feminine in Greek, but
        > one can never be sure. It might even be
        > neuter plural! ;-)
        > --
        >
        > /BP 8^)>
        > --
        > Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
        >
        > Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
        >
        > (Tacitus)
        >
        > I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
        > Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this
        > signature...
        >
      • Henrik Theiling
        Hi! ... It s indeed feminine. (I suppose they d better translated it as ,Wikipädie , though). **Henrik
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 28 5:43 AM
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          Hi!

          Benct Philip Jonsson writes:
          > Well, the subject line says it all: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
          > German? Sure _paidía_ is feminine in Greek, but one can never be
          > sure. It might even be neuter plural! ;-)

          It's indeed feminine. (I suppose they'd better translated it as
          ,Wikipädie', though).

          **Henrik
        • Damien Perrotin
          ... In French it is masculine. Don t ask why, it just /feels/ that way.
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 28 7:38 AM
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            Skrivet en doa Henrik Theiling:
            > Hi!
            >
            > Benct Philip Jonsson writes:
            >
            >> Well, the subject line says it all: What gender is _Wikipedia_ in
            >> German? Sure _paidía_ is feminine in Greek, but one can never be
            >> sure. It might even be neuter plural! ;-)
            >>
            >
            > It's indeed feminine. (I suppose they'd better translated it as
            > ,Wikipädie', though).
            >
            > **Henrik
            >
            >
            In French it is masculine. Don't ask why, it just /feels/ that way.
          • Andreas Johansson
            ... As for my idiolect, Wikipedia is a proper name, but _wiki_ [vi:kI] is an n-gender noun. Eg _Wikipedia är den mest kända och använda wikin, men inte
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 28 3:27 PM
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              Quoting Kalle Bergman <seppu_kong@...>:

              > > What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?
              >
              > Okay, not an answer to your question, and tangential
              > to the subject, but... what gender is "wikipedia" in
              > swedish? "En wikipedia", "ett wikipedia"... it's
              > neither, right, because "wikipedia" is a proper name?

              As for my idiolect, "Wikipedia" is a proper name, but _wiki_ [vi:kI] is an
              n-gender noun. Eg _Wikipedia är den mest kända och använda wikin, men inte den
              enda_.

              (Tho "n-gender" may be a bad term to use when speaking of my 'lect, since I have
              a masculine of sorts; _den enda kvinnan_, _den enda grejen_, but _den ende
              mannen_.)

              Andreas
            • Paul Bennett
              On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:27:18 -0400, Andreas Johansson ... Odd. I have the exact opposite vowel pattern /wIki:/ for that kind of website. I have
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 28 3:48 PM
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                On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:27:18 -0400, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...>
                wrote:

                > As for my idiolect, "Wikipedia" is a proper name, but _wiki_ [vi:kI]

                Odd. I have the exact opposite vowel pattern /wIki:/ for that kind of
                website.

                I have something like /wIki_x'pi:dIj@/ for the name of that site.

                I imagine it's properly /wiki/ in Hawaiian, isn't it?

                Oh, and the question originally posed, but for Thagojian? It'd fit very
                nicely into the -ia/-ua declension, which are mostly biologically female
                or inanimate nouns. Thus:

                Singular
                Agentive: uikipedia
                Patientive: uikipediam
                Oblique: uikipedai

                Plural
                Agt: uikipediaz
                Pat: uikipedianz
                Obl: uikipedavi




                Paul
              • Andreas Johansson
                ... Mine is in Swedish, which, I ll infer from the /w/, yours isn t, so I don t think it s odd at all. Andreas
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 28 3:56 PM
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                  Quoting Paul Bennett <paul-bennett@...>:

                  > On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 18:27:18 -0400, Andreas Johansson <andjo@...>
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > As for my idiolect, "Wikipedia" is a proper name, but _wiki_ [vi:kI]
                  >
                  > Odd. I have the exact opposite vowel pattern /wIki:/ for that kind of
                  > website.

                  Mine is in Swedish, which, I'll infer from the /w/, yours isn't, so I don't
                  think it's odd at all.

                  Andreas
                • Eric Christopherson
                  ... It s very interesting! I have thought about including something like it in a conlang, but so far haven t quite done it. Do you know the origins of those
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 28 4:13 PM
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                    On Jul 28, 2006, at 7:05 AM, Kalle Bergman wrote:

                    > Makes me think of my dad's dialect, which has a
                    > special set of clitics used with names of people, when
                    > those names are used to refer to a person by that
                    > name. (So, for instance, you use the clitic when
                    > saying things like "I met Ove yesterday", but not when
                    > saying "His name is Ove", because in the latter case,
                    > "Ove" refers to the name itself, rather than to
                    > someone called "Ove"). The clitics were en-/n- in the
                    > case of men, and a- in the case of women, so you got
                    > things like:
                    >
                    > Jag såg n'Ove
                    > I saw Ove
                    >
                    > And
                    >
                    > Jag såg a'Karin
                    > I saw Karin
                    >
                    > I think it's an interesting feature.

                    It's very interesting! I have thought about including something like
                    it in a conlang, but so far haven't quite done it. Do you know the
                    origins of those clitics? And does anyone know of other languages
                    that do that? The only nat- or conlang I'm aware of is Toki Pona
                    with <jan> "person."
                  • Jörg Rhiemeier
                    Hallo! ... _Wikipedia_ is feminine, probably because _Enzyklopädie_ is also feminine, and because it ends in -a, and most words in -a are feminine. _Wiki_,
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 29 9:07 AM
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                      Hallo!

                      On Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:09:26 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:

                      > Well, the subject line says it all:
                      > What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?
                      > Sure _paidía_ is feminine in Greek, but
                      > one can never be sure. It might even be
                      > neuter plural! ;-)

                      _Wikipedia_ is feminine, probably because _Enzyklopädie_ is also feminine,
                      and because it ends in -a, and most words in -a are feminine. _Wiki_, though,
                      is neuter.

                      ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                    • Kalle Bergman
                      ... Not really, although I suppose the masculine version is probably related to the indefinite article en . ... that? Natlangs, I have no idea. I know Lojban
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 29 9:43 AM
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                        > Do you know the origins of those clitics?

                        Not really, although I suppose the masculine version
                        is probably related to the indefinite article "en".

                        > And does anyone know of other languages that do
                        that?

                        Natlangs, I have no idea. I know Lojban has something
                        similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
                        term is in lojban) "la".

                        /Kalle B
                      • Henrik Theiling
                        Hi! ... My conlang S11 has a similar thing, but mainly for ensuring self-segregation for foreign words: you prefix the word with (something similar to) pani-
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 29 10:54 AM
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                          Hi!

                          Eric Christopherson writes:
                          >...
                          > > I think it's an interesting feature.
                          >
                          > It's very interesting! I have thought about including something like
                          > it in a conlang, but so far haven't quite done it. Do you know the
                          > origins of those clitics? And does anyone know of other languages
                          > that do that?
                          >...

                          My conlang S11 has a similar thing, but mainly for ensuring
                          self-segregation for foreign words: you prefix the word with
                          (something similar to) pani- and suffix it will -it. The -i- may be a
                          different vowels and the -a- is adjusted to obey vowel harmony.

                          I have not thought about native names, though, but if they will need
                          marking, it will be different from the one used for ensuring
                          self-segregation.

                          Anyway, Chinese has a name marker used when no title or given name is
                          used, probably because using just one syllable is too ambiguous. I
                          posted this already a while ago (seen on a van):

                          Li3 shi4 Ya4zhou1 Shi2pin3 Gong1si1
                          Li <the_name> Asian Food Company

                          **Henrik
                        • Philip Newton
                          ... I believe gadri is the term you re looking for. I vaguely recall Dana Nutter s Sasxsek having a similar name-article, BICBW. Cheers, -- Philip Newton
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 29 12:47 PM
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                            On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <seppu_kong@...> wrote:
                            > I know Lojban has something
                            > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
                            > term is in lojban) "la".

                            I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.

                            I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar name-article, BICBW.

                            Cheers,
                            --
                            Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
                          • Benct Philip Jonsson
                            ... I definitely agree with you and Andreas that _Wikipedia_ is a proper name in Swedish. It probably is in German too, but IIANM proper names can have any
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 31 3:22 AM
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                              Kalle Bergman skrev:
                              >>What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?
                              >
                              >
                              > Okay, not an answer to your question, and tangential
                              > to the subject, but... what gender is "wikipedia" in
                              > swedish? "En wikipedia", "ett wikipedia"... it's
                              > neither, right, because "wikipedia" is a proper name?
                              >

                              I definitely agree with you and Andreas that _Wikipedia_
                              is a proper name in Swedish. It probably is in German
                              too, but IIANM proper names can have any gender in German,
                              and (of this I'm sure) you *need* to know what gender a
                              name has in order to choose the right anaphoric forms
                              when referring to it.

                              > (Begin rant)
                              >
                              > Makes me think of my dad's dialect, which has a
                              > special set of clitics used with names of people, when
                              > those names are used to refer to a person by that
                              > name. (So, for instance, you use the clitic when
                              > saying things like "I met Ove yesterday", but not when
                              > saying "His name is Ove", because in the latter case,
                              > "Ove" refers to the name itself, rather than to
                              > someone called "Ove"). The clitics were en-/n- in the
                              > case of men, and a- in the case of women, so you got
                              > things like:
                              >
                              > Jag såg n'Ove
                              > I saw Ove
                              >
                              > And
                              >
                              > Jag såg a'Karin
                              > I saw Karin
                              >
                              > I think it's an interesting feature.

                              It is. These forms come from the old pronoun
                              _hinn (m), hin (f), hitt (n)_ which basically
                              meant (and still means in Icelandic, Faroese
                              and Norwegian) roughly the same as, and is
                              cognate to, German _jener_, i.e. basically
                              'the other one', but could also be used as
                              a demonstrative and relative pronoun: as you
                              perhaps know the Scandinavian postposed definite
                              article also derives from _hinn_ used enclitically,
                              and its forms were often written without _h-_
                              in Old Norse. In the function you describe they
                              were preposed to a person's name when referring to
                              that person -- much as the definite article can be in
                              German and always is in Greek -- and again with
                              great phonetic attrition due to being clitic.
                              I wonder if the feminine form _a_ comes from
                              the accusative singular feminine _hina_ or
                              from the nominative _hin_ with a soundchange
                              _in > i~ > E~ > a~_. The fact that many
                              Scandinavian dialects have enclitic object
                              pronun forms _'en (m), 'na (f), -et (n)_
                              (among them *my* dad's dialect! :-) talks
                              for the accusative origin, but the fact that
                              the feminine singular and neuter plural
                              article both develop into _-a < -in_ speaks
                              for the nasalization and lowering of _hin_
                              hypothesis.

                              BTW my dad used to joke about the Vestrogothian
                              and Bahusian translation of the German paradigm
                              _sie, ihrer, ihr, sie_ which went _hu, henneres,
                              ôtna, hu_ -- note how the nominative stands in
                              for the old accusative when stressed: the _-na_
                              form -- in this case deriving from the accusative
                              _hana_ of the personal pronoun _hun/hon_ wasn't
                              stressable! Also note the absence of a reflex of
                              the old dative _henni_ which has given the obliq1ue
                              case in standard Swedish!

                              > /Kalle B
                              >
                              > --- Benct Philip Jonsson <bpjonsson@...> skrev:
                              >
                              >
                              >>Well, the subject line says it all:
                              >>What gender is _Wikipedia_ in German?
                              >>Sure _paidía_ is feminine in Greek, but
                              >>one can never be sure. It might even be
                              >>neuter plural! ;-)
                              >>--
                              >>
                              >>/BP 8^)>
                              >>--
                              >>Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
                              >>
                              >> Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
                              >>
                              >>(Tacitus)
                              >>
                              >>I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
                              >>Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this
                              >>signature...
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              --

                              /BP 8^)>
                              --
                              Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se

                              Solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant!
                              (Tacitus)

                              I'm afraid the current situation in the Eastern
                              Mediterranean forces me to reinstate this signature...
                            • Andreas Johansson
                              ... I ve got those too. Now we just need some Swedish George Bernard Shaw to pounce on _slå honom_ [slo:n], _med henne_ [mE:na], and _tag det_ [tA:t]. Andreas
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 31 2:08 PM
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                                Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpjonsson@...>:

                                > The fact that many
                                > Scandinavian dialects have enclitic object
                                > pronun forms _'en (m), 'na (f), -et (n)_
                                > (among them *my* dad's dialect! :-)

                                I've got those too.

                                Now we just need some Swedish George Bernard Shaw to pounce on _slå honom_
                                [slo:n], _med henne_ [mE:na], and _tag det_ [tA:t].

                                Andreas
                              • Larry Sulky
                                ... Lume has the prefix sai for this purpose (for people names...other kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry
                                Message 15 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                  On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
                                  > On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <seppu_kong@...> wrote:
                                  > > I know Lojban has something
                                  > > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
                                  > > term is in lojban) "la".
                                  >
                                  > I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
                                  >
                                  > I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar name-article, BICBW.
                                  >

                                  Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
                                  kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry
                                • Dana Nutter
                                  li [Larry Sulky] mi tulis la ... Yes. All proper nouns are introduced with li (adj.) or lu (prep.). What is considered a name in Sasxsek is more than
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Aug 3, 2006
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                                    li [Larry Sulky] mi tulis la

                                    > On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
                                    > > On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <seppu_kong@...> wrote:
                                    > > > I know Lojban has something
                                    > > > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
                                    > > > term is in lojban) "la".
                                    > >
                                    > > I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
                                    > >
                                    > > I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar
                                    > name-article, BICBW.

                                    Yes. All proper nouns are introduced with "li" (adj.) or "lu" (prep.).
                                    What is considered a "name" in Sasxsek is more than what most languages
                                    have.


                                    > Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
                                    > kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry




                                    ------------------------------
                                    dejnx nxtxr / Dana Nutter

                                    LI SASXSEK LATIS.
                                    http://www.nutter.net/sasxsek
                                  • Jörg Rhiemeier
                                    Hallo! ... In my experimental speedtalk-type language X-3, all proper names begin and end with a glottal stop, which doesn t occur elsewhere in the language.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Aug 4, 2006
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                                      Hallo!

                                      On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 15:57:41 -0400, Larry Sulky wrote:

                                      > On 7/29/06, Philip Newton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
                                      > > On 7/29/06, Kalle Bergman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
                                      > > > I know Lojban has something
                                      > > > similar, with the article (or "sumti" whatever the
                                      > > > term is in lojban) "la".
                                      > >
                                      > > I believe "gadri" is the term you're looking for.
                                      > >
                                      > > I vaguely recall Dana Nutter's Sasxsek having a similar name-article,
                                      > > BICBW.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Lume has the prefix "sai'" for this purpose (for people names...other
                                      > kinds of things have other prefixes). --larry

                                      In my experimental speedtalk-type language X-3, all proper names begin and
                                      end with a glottal stop, which doesn't occur elsewhere in the language.
                                      So if you see a glottal stop, everything that follows is a proper name until
                                      you hit upon another glottal stop, beyond which everything are ordinary
                                      morphemes again. Proper names are the only class of morphemes in X-3 that are
                                      more than one phoneme long.

                                      ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
                                    • Larry Sulky
                                      ... Jörg, how do you avoid glottal stops being swallowed by adjacent consonants in ordinary morphemes? E.g.: tos ?ana? ki Wouldn t that sound exactly like:
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Aug 5, 2006
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                                        On 8/4/06, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                                        ---SNIP---
                                        > In my experimental speedtalk-type language X-3, all proper names begin and
                                        > end with a glottal stop, which doesn't occur elsewhere in the language.
                                        > So if you see a glottal stop, everything that follows is a proper name until
                                        > you hit upon another glottal stop, beyond which everything are ordinary
                                        > morphemes again. Proper names are the only class of morphemes in X-3 that are
                                        > more than one phoneme long.

                                        Jörg, how do you avoid glottal stops being "swallowed" by adjacent
                                        consonants in ordinary morphemes? E.g.:

                                        tos ?ana? ki

                                        Wouldn't that sound exactly like:

                                        tos ana ki

                                        ?

                                        --larry
                                      • Jörg Rhiemeier
                                        Hallo! ... The language would have to be pronounced in a way that you can tell where the glottal stops are. Swallowing glottal stops is just plain WRONG, as
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Aug 5, 2006
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                                          Hallo!

                                          On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 08:21:45 -0400, Larry Sulky wrote:

                                          > On 8/4/06, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
                                          > ---SNIP---
                                          > > In my experimental speedtalk-type language X-3, all proper names begin and
                                          > > end with a glottal stop, which doesn't occur elsewhere in the language.
                                          > > So if you see a glottal stop, everything that follows is a proper name
                                          > > until
                                          > > you hit upon another glottal stop, beyond which everything are ordinary
                                          > > morphemes again. Proper names are the only class of morphemes in X-3 that
                                          > > are
                                          > > more than one phoneme long.
                                          >
                                          > Jörg, how do you avoid glottal stops being "swallowed" by adjacent
                                          > consonants in ordinary morphemes? E.g.:
                                          >
                                          > tos ?ana? ki
                                          >
                                          > Wouldn't that sound exactly like:
                                          >
                                          > tos ana ki
                                          >
                                          > ?

                                          The language would have to be pronounced in a way that you can tell where the
                                          glottal stops are. "Swallowing" glottal stops is just plain WRONG, as is
                                          inserting glottal stops just because you are used to, say, pronounce them
                                          at the beginning of vowel-initial words. I admit that this is difficult to
                                          someone not familiar with phonemic glottal stops, but keep in mind that X-3 is
                                          a "speedtalk"-type language with very low redundancy and a huge phoneme
                                          inventory. If you say that this is difficult and impractical, you are right;
                                          it wasn't my intention at all to create a practical auxlang or anything like
                                          that, I just wanted to explore what a language with monophonemic morphemes
                                          could look like.

                                          ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
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