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Re: YAEPT: Australian Milo

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  • Philip Newton
    ... Strange; I thought it would be /Q/ only (which is my vowel in what , for example, which presumably influenced my expectation -- something like /w/ + |a|
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 1, 2006
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      On 6/30/06, Paul Bennett <paul-bennett@...> wrote:
      > On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 16:14:35 -0400, Mark Reed <markjreed@...> wrote:
      >
      > > This is still YAEPT, but not about Aussies or Clouseau. On a BBC
      > > comedy I heard someone say a certain offensive word for female
      > > genitalia, one vowel removed from "twit". I find it funny that they
      > > didn't bleep it out, actually, since they did bleep other similar
      > > words. In any case, the actor pronounced it with an /&/, which I find
      > > amusing. Is that the normal pronunciation over there?
      >
      > That's the usual pronunciation, but the vowel can also be /Q/

      Strange; I thought it would be /Q/ only (which is my vowel in "what",
      for example, which presumably influenced my expectation -- something
      like "/w/ + |a| + stop in closed syllable makes the |a| into /Q/" or
      the like). But then, I don't think I've ever heard the word spoken, so
      this is a spelling pronunciation.

      I also use /Q/ in "wattle (and daub)" and "WATCOM" and "Wapping";
      again, though I don't know whether that's correct or not, since I
      don't think I've heard either word pronounced.

      Strangely, though, I have /&/ in "whack" and "wacky" and "WAP", so the
      rule is apparently not as simple as "/w/ + |a| + stop" -- if there is,
      indeed, a rule at all.

      Cheers,
      --
      Philip Newton <philip.newton@...>
    • Mark J. Reed
      ... what = /wVt/ [w3t] (rhymes with but=butt, cut, gut, hut, jut, nut, rut, Tut...) whack = /w&k/ [w&k] (rhymes with back, gack, hack, jack, lack, Mack,
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 1, 2006
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        On 7/1/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:
        > Strange; I thought it would be /Q/ only (which is my vowel in "what",
        > for example, which presumably influenced my expectation -- something
        > like "/w/ + |a| + stop in closed syllable makes the |a| into /Q/" or
        > the like). But then, I don't think I've ever heard the word spoken, so
        > this is a spelling pronunciation.

        what = /wVt/ [w3t] (rhymes with but=butt, cut, gut, hut, jut, nut,
        rut, Tut...)

        whack = /w&k/ [w&k] (rhymes with back, gack, hack, jack, lack, Mack, NAK, pack,
        quack, rack, sack,
        tack, vac(uum), yak, Zach)

        The word under discussion rhymes with neither one IML, but rather with
        bought, caught=cot, dot, fought, got, hot, jot, lot, Mott, not, Ott,
        pot, rot, sought, taught=tot, yacht, Zot! All of which have /at/
        which is, in fact, something very like [at].

        > I also use /Q/ in "wattle (and daub)" and "WATCOM"

        I have my analogous /a/ in those as well..

        > and "Wapping"

        That's presumably a place name? Never heard of it, and would
        automatically pronounce it with an /&/ (homophonically with
        "whapping").

        --
        Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
      • Tristan Alexander McLeay
        ... You pronounce wattle correctly --- I don t know about WATCOM or Wapping , but I would ve said them the same too. (I have no idea what wattle and
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 1, 2006
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          On 01/07/06, Philip Newton <philip.newton@...> wrote:

          > Strange; I thought it would be /Q/ only (which is my vowel in "what",
          > for example, which presumably influenced my expectation -- something
          > like "/w/ + |a| + stop in closed syllable makes the |a| into /Q/" or
          > the like). But then, I don't think I've ever heard the word spoken, so
          > this is a spelling pronunciation.
          >
          > I also use /Q/ in "wattle (and daub)" and "WATCOM" and "Wapping";
          > again, though I don't know whether that's correct or not, since I
          > don't think I've heard either word pronounced.

          You pronounce "wattle" correctly --- I don't know about "WATCOM" or
          "Wapping", but I would've said them the same too. (I have no idea what
          "wattle and daub" means, to me, wattle is a kind of tree and its
          flower, and the source of the green & gold of Australia's sporting
          colors.)

          > Strangely, though, I have /&/ in "whack" and "wacky" and "WAP", so the
          > rule is apparently not as simple as "/w/ + |a| + stop" -- if there is,
          > indeed, a rule at all.

          There is such a rule; it occurs before all consonants except velars.
          The syllable doesn't need to be closed, either. So "wag", "whack",
          "wax" have /&(:)/, but "waffle", "wattle", "wander" etc. have the same
          vowel as "lot". Obviously before <r> in closed syllables, you get the
          same vowel as in "north" (or "force"? I don't know; they're the same
          for me). For some reason also in "water" I have /o:/ which is the same
          as the "north", but I don't actually know what it is for other
          dialects that distinguish north/force/thought.

          And yes, it also usually applies after consonants, so "dwarf",
          "quarter", "Qantas", "twat" would be expected to follow it, and IME
          do. (Incidentally, I never knew "twat" was a swear word, nor that it
          referred to female genitalia. I just thought it was a bit of a light &
          dated insult. Well within the range of what a teacher might say to a
          student they considered mature in reference to someone else.)

          The mobile internet thingy known as "WAP" is usually pronounced /w&p/
          tho, and some other neologisms don't follow it. OTOH, there's "Qantas"
          as above, and a lot of Australian place names from Aboriginal words
          start with "Wa-" too, like "Warrigul", and they tend to follow it
          (thus /wOrig@l/).

          --
          Tristan.
        • Keith Gaughan
          ... Wattle and daub is a building material humans all around the world have been using for a few millennia at this point. Wattle consists of a woven lattice of
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 1, 2006
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            Tristan Alexander McLeay wrote:

            > You pronounce "wattle" correctly --- I don't know about "WATCOM" or
            > "Wapping", but I would've said them the same too. (I have no idea what
            > "wattle and daub" means, to me, wattle is a kind of tree and its
            > flower, and the source of the green & gold of Australia's sporting
            > colors.)

            Wattle and daub is a building material humans all around the world have
            been using for a few millennia at this point. Wattle consists of a woven
            lattice of some strong but flexible material, such as branches, wooden
            stakes, &c. and acts as the skeleton for the walls. This is then
            covered--daubed--with a mixture of clay, dung, and straw, smoothed over,
            and when dry, whitewashed.

            The technique was still in use here in Ireland up until the early 20th
            century, but pretty much fell out of use after the 1900s. The cottage my
            father grew up had wattle and daub partitions though the outer walls
            were made of stone.

            I checked, and the origin of the name of the Australian tree comes from
            the above meaning as it was used to make wattling.

            K.
          • Mark J. Reed
            ... The word wattle is also an anatomical term, referring to the bit of loose skin that hangs over the beak on a turkey, or below the chin on your older
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 1, 2006
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              Tristan Alexander McLeay wrote:
              > to me, wattle is a kind of tree and its flower, and the source of the green & gold of
              > Australia's sporting colors.)

              The word "wattle" is also an anatomical term, referring to the bit of
              loose skin that hangs over the beak on a turkey, or below the chin on
              your older humans.

              > (Incidentally, I never knew "twat" was a swear word, nor that it
              > referred to female genitalia. I just thought it was a bit of a light &
              > dated insult. Well within the range of what a teacher might say to a
              > student they considered mature in reference to someone else.)

              Well, in the context, despite being a British show rather than
              American, it was definitely being used in the way I'm familiar with.
              The discussion of the different uses is quite apropos, in fact; the
              speaker was being called to task for using the word "cunt" (which was
              bleeped) in an email message, but in the context of calling someone a
              "silly cunt" in a teasing manner (unfortunately, he misdirected the
              email to an 8-year-old girl...).

              He protested that the C-word wasn't offensive in that context because
              he wasn't using it literally, and pointed out that he, in fact, never
              uses that word "to refer to the female twat". Which is, of course, a
              humorous and completely failed attempt at a polite circumlocution...



              --
              Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
            • Roger Mills
              ... My dia/idiolect: Agree with all those. ... These also rhyme with the word in question with (my) [A] /a/: squat, squash, squab, squabble, waddle, twaddle,
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 1, 2006
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                Mark J. Reed wrote:
                > what = /wVt/ [w3t] (rhymes with but=butt, cut, gut, hut, jut, nut, rut,
                > Tut...)
                >
                > whack = /w&k/ [w&k] (rhymes with back, gack, hack, jack, lack, Mack, NAK,
                > pack, quack, rack, sack, tack, vac(uum), yak, Zach)

                My dia/idiolect: Agree with all those.

                I have [O] /O/ in the *starred* words in the next list, [A]/a/ in the rest:
                >
                > The word under discussion rhymes with neither one IML, but rather with
                > *bought, caught*=cot, dot, *fought*, got, hot, jot, lot, Mott, not, Ott,
                > pot, rot, *sought, taught*=tot, yacht, Zot! All of which have /at/
                > which is, in fact, something very like [at].

                These also rhyme with the word in question with (my) [A] /a/: squat, squash,
                squab, squabble, waddle, twaddle, swaddle/swaddling [clothes].

                s/t/d+w, (s)k+w seems to exhaust the possibilities, aside from foreign words
                (we've had this discussion before......)

                wattle and daub: [wAtl=] [dOb]

                It appears the WIQ is an outright obscenity mainly in the US......
              • R A Brown
                ... [snip] ... Yep - but Tristan s an Ozzie, not a Brit :) But I am am a Brit and in view of the fuss over this little word, I thought I d consult my
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 1, 2006
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                  Mark J. Reed wrote:
                  > Tristan Alexander McLeay wrote:
                  [snip]
                  >> (Incidentally, I never knew "twat" was a swear word, nor that it
                  >> referred to female genitalia. I just thought it was a bit of a light &
                  >> dated insult. Well within the range of what a teacher might say to a
                  >> student they considered mature in reference to someone else.)
                  >
                  >
                  > Well, in the context, despite being a British show rather than
                  > American, it was definitely being used in the way I'm familiar with.

                  Yep - but Tristan's an Ozzie, not a Brit :)

                  But I am am a Brit and in view of the fuss over this little word, I
                  thought I'd consult my dictionary. It gives;
                  - the pronunciation as either /twQt/ or /tw&t/.
                  - the primary meaning as a vulgarism for the vulva; the secondary
                  meaning as a coarse term of reproach.
                  - the etymology unknown.

                  Therefore, it is hardly surprising that it might be heard on a British
                  show (one assumes well past the 9.00 pm 'watershed') with the meaning of
                  vulva, nor that it was pronounced /tw&t/. As a fellow Brit earlier
                  wrote, both /twQt/ and /tw&t/ are used here - as the dictionary confirms.

                  FWIW, I have rarely heard the word in use & always IIRC with the
                  pronunciation /tw&t/. I believe I have heard it used in both meanings
                  given by the dictionary.

                  I guess that in Oz, from Tristan's mail and that fact he said the term
                  was "dated", that the primary meaning has been forgotten, so the
                  secondary meaning has, presumably, lost its coarseness. I'm sure a
                  teacher who said it to a student here could well find himself in trouble.

                  --
                  Ray
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                  ==================================
                  "A mind which thinks at its own expense will always
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