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Re: Seinundjei Script (is actually about allophony now)

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  • Shreyas Sampat
    ... Hm. Okay, I think this is a way to put it: The consonant glyphs show -citation forms.- If he felt the need to be extremely pedantic and clear, then a
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 1, 2006
      John Vertical wrote:

      > I read your previous explanation on how the harmony works, but I'm
      > still not sure if I follow. Is harmony marked on consonants or vowels?
      > Or both? In other words - taking a word like "tithina": would all the
      > consonant and vowel markers be alveolar, or would it be possible to
      > show etymology by using a, say, palatal fricative sign + the dental
      > form of i?
      >
      > John Vertical

      Hm.

      Okay, I think this is a way to put it:
      The consonant glyphs show -citation forms.- If he felt the need to be
      extremely pedantic and clear, then a speaker might suppress harmony and
      pronounce those consonants. This is basically analogous to English
      speakers saying [w_0Vt] for 'what'.

      The vowel matras show what harmony quality is going on in the consonant
      they are attached to.

      For historical reasons there shouldn't be a word with the citation form
      |t'ith'in'a| (where 'V = palatal vowel marker) (hm, except perhaps in
      forms I have not discovered yet, where the second part of a compound or
      idiom breaks off and retains its harmony quality) or |cithinha| (this
      would be a misspelling anyway; dental/alveolar status does not spread),
      but in a running text you will see things like the following:

      tithin /tiTin/
      bech t'ith'in /beS tSiTiJ/
      nénj t,ith,in /ne:n` t`iTin`/ (this is starting to make for a nice way
      of narrowly transcribing sein' script)

      where the |tXthXn| (for whatever reason |tithina| didn't sound like good
      Sein' to me:) sequence represents the same word, varying allophonically.

      Did that make sense, or am I staying up too late?

      --
      Yetyem Lédh once stole the sword of Rakaui. It did not go well for him.
      It was hardly a century, or what passed for one in the time before the
      gods had won their Names, before the sword in its indignation sliced off
      his hand.

      Shreyas Sampat
      http://njyar.blogspot.com
    • Shreyas Sampat
      ... Oh? Well, when are you going to show us yours? -- Shreyas Sampat http://njyar.blogspot.com
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2006
        Adam Walker wrote:

        > First, that's a beautiful sample. Second,

        Thank you(:

        >Manchu-style writing is way cool. I worked on such
        >for Masvita, since it had a Bantu-style grammar and
        >phonology. (What? You don't see the connection?
        >Well, I guess that means you're sane.)
        >
        >
        Oh? Well, when are you going to show us yours?


        --
        Shreyas Sampat
        http://njyar.blogspot.com
      • Mark J. Reed
        Many English speakers naturally have a voiceless fricative [W] for the wh in words like what ; it s not pedantry for them. I haven t heard plain [w_0], but
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 1, 2006
          Many English speakers naturally have a voiceless fricative [W] for the
          "wh" in words like "what"; it's not pedantry for them. I haven't
          heard plain [w_0], but then that'd be a hard sound to hear. :). I have
          heard [hw_0], though; I assume that represents a pedantic attempt at
          [W].

          On 3/1/06, Shreyas Sampat <ssampat@...> wrote:
          > John Vertical wrote:
          >
          > > I read your previous explanation on how the harmony works, but I'm
          > > still not sure if I follow. Is harmony marked on consonants or vowels?
          > > Or both? In other words - taking a word like "tithina": would all the
          > > consonant and vowel markers be alveolar, or would it be possible to
          > > show etymology by using a, say, palatal fricative sign + the dental
          > > form of i?
          > >
          > > John Vertical
          >
          > Hm.
          >
          > Okay, I think this is a way to put it:
          > The consonant glyphs show -citation forms.- If he felt the need to be
          > extremely pedantic and clear, then a speaker might suppress harmony and
          > pronounce those consonants. This is basically analogous to English
          > speakers saying [w_0Vt] for 'what'.
          >
          > The vowel matras show what harmony quality is going on in the consonant
          > they are attached to.
          >
          > For historical reasons there shouldn't be a word with the citation form
          > |t'ith'in'a| (where 'V = palatal vowel marker) (hm, except perhaps in
          > forms I have not discovered yet, where the second part of a compound or
          > idiom breaks off and retains its harmony quality) or |cithinha| (this
          > would be a misspelling anyway; dental/alveolar status does not spread),
          > but in a running text you will see things like the following:
          >
          > tithin /tiTin/
          > bech t'ith'in /beS tSiTiJ/
          > nénj t,ith,in /ne:n` t`iTin`/ (this is starting to make for a nice way
          > of narrowly transcribing sein' script)
          >
          > where the |tXthXn| (for whatever reason |tithina| didn't sound like good
          > Sein' to me:) sequence represents the same word, varying allophonically.
          >
          > Did that make sense, or am I staying up too late?
          >
          > --
          > Yetyem Lédh once stole the sword of Rakaui. It did not go well for him.
          > It was hardly a century, or what passed for one in the time before the
          > gods had won their Names, before the sword in its indignation sliced off
          > his hand.
          >
          > Shreyas Sampat
          > http://njyar.blogspot.com
          >


          --
          Mark J. Reed <markjreed@...>
        • John Vertical
          ... 1) So they show the underlying form (which may be changed by harmony)? ... 2) I.e. the vowel markers always agree with the phonetic realization? ... 3) /T
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 1, 2006
            >The consonant glyphs show -citation forms.-

            1) So they show the underlying form (which may be changed by harmony)?

            >The vowel matras show what harmony quality is going on in the consonant
            >they are attached to.

            2) I.e. the vowel markers always agree with the phonetic realization?

            >but in a running text you will see things like the following:
            >
            >tithin /tiTin/
            >bech t'ith'in /beS tSiTiJ/
            >nénj t,ith,in /ne:n` t`iTin`/ (this is starting to make for a nice way of
            >narrowly transcribing sein' script)
            >
            >where the |tXthXn| (for whatever reason |tithina| didn't sound like good
            >Sein' to me:) sequence represents the same word, varying allophonically.

            3) /T D/ _don't_ harmonize? That clears it up a little. Listing those
            together with the "main" fricatives and /s z/ separately suggested to me
            that those might be alveolar, not dental spirants.
            4) There's no plosive/affricate distinction with the palatals, it seems?
            5) Harmony spreads over the whole utterance??

            If I'm right so far, then yes, I think I got it.


            >Did that make sense, or am I staying up too late?

            >Shreyas Sampat

            I'd guess both. It does make sense, but it was a little hard to interpret
            initially. :)

            John Vertical
            PS. I might be just me, but with regards to the romanization, I find the
            practice of using <j> for both a palatal plosive and a palatalization marker
            a little ugly. And do your really have /h G/ without an /x/, or is /x/ <h>
            and not <kh> for some reason?
          • Shreyas Sampat
            John Vertical wrote:-- ... Yep. ... Ya. ... Yeah - this is an organisational device for me, I wanted them to be listed next to /ts/ /dz/. ... Right. ... It s a
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 1, 2006
              John Vertical wrote:--

              > 1) So they show the underlying form (which may be changed by harmony)?

              Yep.

              > 2) I.e. the vowel markers always agree with the phonetic realization?

              Ya.

              > 3) /T D/ _don't_ harmonize? That clears it up a little. Listing those
              > together with the "main" fricatives and /s z/ separately suggested to
              > me that those might be alveolar, not dental spirants.

              Yeah - this is an organisational device for me, I wanted them to be
              listed next to /ts/ /dz/.

              > 4) There's no plosive/affricate distinction with the palatals, it seems?

              Right.

              > 5) Harmony spreads over the whole utterance??

              Shocking, isn't it(:

              > PS. I might be just me, but with regards to the romanization, I find
              > the practice of using <j> for both a palatal plosive and a
              > palatalization marker a little ugly. And do your really have /h G/
              > without an /x/, or is /x/ <h> and not <kh> for some reason?

              It's a bit of a kludge because I can't use the combining diacritic COMMA
              BELOW with any kind of typing comfort. This also means that I have a
              'lazy mode' affricate spelling |jz| (hideous) because |zj| is occupied
              and |jj| is geminate |j|. I can't even remember what horrors the
              geminated africate spellings are. They are not pretty.

              Historically, /h/ was /x/ at one point and got softened (this is written
              as |h|), or was deleted except in a single context, and is not spelled
              there. This form appeals in sequences of like vowel, such as |kááladh|
              /ka:halaD/ (long vowels are not permitted in unstressed position).

              --
              Shreyas
              is too lazy to post a real sig
            • Adam Walker
              ... Well, I found it (and the tonal stuff I promised you) just the other day, so I ll scan the text I wrote out in Masvita for the T-shirt thingy oh-those-many
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 2, 2006
                --- Shreyas Sampat <ssampat@...> wrote:

                > Adam Walker wrote:
                >
                > > First, that's a beautiful sample. Second,
                >
                > Thank you(:
                >
                > >Manchu-style writing is way cool. I worked on such
                > >for Masvita, since it had a Bantu-style grammar and
                > >phonology. (What? You don't see the connection?
                > >Well, I guess that means you're sane.)
                > >
                > >
                > Oh? Well, when are you going to show us yours?
                >
                >

                Well, I found it (and the tonal stuff I promised you)
                just the other day, so I'll scan the text I wrote out
                in Masvita for the T-shirt thingy oh-those-many years
                ago and post it temporarily to my web page tomorrow.
                (Which reminds me I need to remove the paintings I
                have up now. They eat too much space.)

                Adam

                Judindu ul isu, niturvud ul regu ul Erodu, ed simu segu al toda Jerosolima, ed cumvinid todis ils daliris djils pundivichis ed als scrivas djul pobuu pera demandari djuls sis, «¿Jundi aved ninadud ul Cristu?»

                Mach 2:3-4
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