Re: Homonyms across conlangs (part 1)
- Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...>:
> Sarahal Meyuçnel isnerq (Sally Caves wrote):Tairezazh has, AFAIK, no homonymous stems, but there is considerable amounts in
> > What might be equally interesting is finding out how
> > many conlangs have homonyms within themselves, as I
> > think this is a feature of most natural languages
> > and a good source of punning.. I've been trying to
> > assign more than one meaning to words I make up, but
> > I've noted a few inadvertant homonyms in Teonaht:
> In Kejeb, the protolanguage of the Sohlob dialects there
> are by design no homonyms, though there probably must
> arise some in the daughters due to the sound changes,
> though I know of no easy way tpfind them in the database.
> The same goes for false friends across the dialects.
derived or inflected forms, either of the same stem - eg, from _dák_ "sorrow"
we get both _daks_ "sorrow (acc)" and _daks_ "sad" - or from similar ones - eg
_tain_ "our, ours" from _ta_ "I", _tain_ "Terran" from _tai-_ "Earth". No doubt
there'd be alot more of this if the language had as many stems as a natlang
- Emaelivpeith Sanghyeon Seo:
> Is this interesting in any way? :-)Quite. I like random statistics and such. :)
> formalizing their letter-to-sound rules if possible.In that case, why not compare them in IPA (or X-SAMPA)?
> In order to have a look at homonyms across conlangs.
> lest: Iliani blue, Verdurian unit of distanceNothing exact, since /st/ is not allowed finally (she says as she
quietly fixes "syikavást" in the lexicon *grin*). I do have something
lesh /lES/ close (in distance).
Otherwise I have no exact matches. What we really need, if we want to
do this sort of comparison, is a computer program that compares
wordlists. It's too tedious to do in bulk otherwise, IMHO.
(watch the Reply-To!)
- On 2 Mar 2005, at 1.01 pm, Arthaey Angosii wrote:
> Emaelivpeith Sanghyeon Seo:Not forgetting inflected and other modified forms: if your conlang
>> Is this interesting in any way? :-)
> Quite. I like random statistics and such. :)
>> formalizing their letter-to-sound rules if possible.
>> In order to have a look at homonyms across conlangs.
> In that case, why not compare them in IPA (or X-SAMPA)?
>> lest: Iliani blue, Verdurian unit of distance
> Nothing exact, since /st/ is not allowed finally (she says as she
> quietly fixes "syikavást" in the lexicon *grin*). I do have something
> lesh /lES/ close (in distance).
> Otherwise I have no exact matches. What we really need, if we want to
> do this sort of comparison, is a computer program that compares
> wordlists. It's too tedious to do in bulk otherwise, IMHO.
(like mine) marks the e.g. plural with a vowel change, that might mean
the singular form is ahomophonous, but the plural is. (I don't think I
have any homophones amongst that word list yet in either Ancient or Old
- Part 1, eh? Can't wait to see what part 2 is.
Here's my first result, Iliani-Verdurian homonyms. Actually, since I
haven't completed letter-to-sound part, these are really homographs.
Is this interesting in any way? :-)
>>You bet! Assuming these are basically IPA, I think it'd be neat to
have a nice big list of various phonological forms that correspond
to different words in different conlangs--natlangs, too. Why not?
I'll add some where possible (only showing those that have equivalents):
<looks over dictionaries>
Huh. Would you look at that: Not one single homonym. They're all
possible in at least one of my languages. I could've *sworn* I had a
word "mena" somewhere, but nope: Nothing. Oh well. Nevertheless,
in honor of your idea, I've coined a word in Gweydr:
grel: Iliani clean-shaven, Verdurian hail, Gweydr list
>>The idea of a "list" is a useful concept to have, and since what you
is a list, Gweydr now has a word for "list" based on your list.
- Emaelivpeith David J. Peterson:
> You bet! Assuming these are basically IPA, I think it'd be neat toI copied all the homonyms so far mentioned in this thread to Muke's wiki:
> have a nice big list of various phonological forms that correspond
> to different words in different conlangs--natlangs, too. Why not?
(watch the Reply-To!)
>LUNATIC SURVEY 2005, by Sally Caves...
>I'm Maxime Lévesque, or only Max, or also #1
>A. PROFESSION, DEMOGRAPHICS, INCLINATION:
>1. Who are you, and what is the name of your invented language or
>languages? Pseudonyms allowed. (Are you using one? asked "Sally Caves")
My languages don't have names, I've never try to invent one because I don't
what word using for.. I'll come with names when I'll finally make a conlang
>*2. Are you new to the Lunatic Survey or have you filled out a version ofThat's my first one, I'm on that list since the beginning of last December
>this survey before?
(or maybe the end of November but I'm not sure because in the beginning I
deleted mails after reading them.
>3. Do you have a website for you language/world(s)? If so, please list theDon't have any website, I don't even know how to build one so it's not for
>4. What is your email address? name at hostsite dot whatever.salut_vous_autre at hotmail dot com
(Yes I know there's a mistake in my name I noticed to late to change)
>5. What is your age? (vague answers allowed, but it is an important16 (for still a half month)
>6. What is your gender?Male
>7. What is your nationality? Where do you live now?I'm from the Quebec, where I also live
>8. What is your native language?French
>9. What natural languages foreign to you have you studied or do you speak?English, and a little of spanish during the last 3 years (but not this one)
But if everything happen like I'd want it to happen, I'll have Spanish at
school next year and German in two year
>10. What is your level of education? i.e., your highest degree achieved orI'm doing my secondary 5. Could probably be called grade 11 to make it more
>11. What is your profession? Are you a professional linguist? If so, whatNo profession but linguist might be a good one to aim
>also makes you a conlanger?
>13. If you are a student, what is your major or your area of study?I aim linguistic studies, probably going to translation. With the growing of
the mondialisation, the wanting for translators will grow too
>14. How long have you been developing your invented language(s)?Only since a few months
>15. At what age did you first start inventing a language? Can you briefly16, a few months ago.
>describe your early efforts?
My interest for communication begun with codes (I created methods of coding
that are perfectly undecipherable(particularily not sure of that last word)
My first try of conlang where something where every cases, determiners,
adjectives, auxiliaries were affixed and pasted together, the vocabulary
were built of word inspired of French, English, and Spanish (and one or two
from Italian), with the monlian method for forming the genitives. I've got
tired of that conlang when I was tired of choosing translations words after
words. That's the last time I've made vocabulary by changing it from
>16. What drew you to start inventing a language and/or constructed world?After having passed through a French grammar, I've begun to search for other
>What was the inspiration?
languages's basic grammars
I've found for German, Latin, Arabic, Swahili, Breton, and finally...
After having read everywhere it was very easy, I tried to learn its working:
the endings, the affixes...
But it after forced me to search what was that difference between these
nominative and accusative and then I discovered cases (and finally
understood what they were talking about in the Latin grammars :-P)
I then tried to represent all those cases by affixes to "be original", but I
didn't know that conlanging were so practiced
>17. Did you start inventing before you had heard of the list or after?A little before the list (kind of 2 or 3 weeks) but a little after Esperanto
>Before you had heard of Esperanto or Tolkien? (I name the two most common
and Tolkien (approximately 2 or 3 weeks too)
>18. Tolkien calls it a "shy art" and a "secret vice"; but that was beforeOn the contrary, I'd be glad to finaly show a good conlang but there are
>the Internet. How secret do you keep it from others outside this list for
>much the same reasons?
missing two things: 1. completing a conalng and 2. learn to build websites
>19. Yaguello has called it "pathological," influenced, unfortunately, by aWhen people hear about my conlanging goals, they first say: "OK, tell me how
>lot of psychiatric writings such as _Le Schizo et la langue_. To what
>extent have you encountered such reactions by outsiders you had taken into
you say...", after they ask: "Why are you doing such things?", and end with
"It seems interesting but it's totally useless"
>*20. Do you consider it nerdy to be doing this? This is a term that getsIt could be considered nerdy if we think that one has to be interest in
>tossed around a lot. Or actually sophisticated? Do you need to get a life,
>or is this your life? What is a life?
grammar and scolar things.
>21. There has been a connection noted between linguistic and musicalLinguistic and musical ability? It probably means I'll never be good in
>ability. Are you musically inclined? Do you sing and/or play a musical
>instrument? Do you compose music?
I already played violin, guitar, tuba (do not laugh that one!), and
percussion but I've never been what anybody could call "good"
But I'm always singing for myself does that counts?
>22. There has been a connection noted between linguistic and mathematicalYes, I'm good in mathematics (but don't like them), but in computing I don't
>ability. Are you mathematically inclined or inclined towards computing in
>23. What other passions do you pursue that give you creative pleasure?I've tried at least once each of them but none of them is really a passion
>(painting, drawing, sculpting, calligraphy, model-building, novel or
>story-writing, role-playing games, map-making, book-
>making, poetry, web-designing, star-gazing or other?)
for me, but I like to look at other's creations in these domains.
>I've tried auxlangs and loglang in sketches but what I like are languages
>B. FEATURES OF YOUR INVENTION
>1. Pick the best term for the invented language you are currently invested
>in: auxlang, artlang, engelang, loglang, lostlang, philosophical language,
>or "other." etc.
who feel natural, probably those enter in the "other" category
But I always go with feeling, If I get a pratical idea for an engelang I
will make it, if I get an beautiful idea for an artlang I will try it etc..
>2. Is your conlang a priori (devised from scratch) or a posteriori (basedAfter my first try of conlang, I now make all my languages a priori I like
>on an existing natural language or drawing from a language class such as
my conlangs being totally unlinked to everything I know.
>4. Do you have a script for your conlang? What is it called? Could youI once create one but I decided to not create antoher before I have a
>provide me at a later date > with a sample of it? Is it on Langmaker's
conlang complete enough to need it.
>5. Briefly describe the outlines of your invented language (syntacticalThat's the description of my most developped conlang
>structure--VO, OV, etc.; class or type--analytic, synthetic, agglutinating,
>incorporative, accusative, ergative, active, trigger, other, combinations,
>etc.), noting what you have done with it that is innovative in your
The syntactical structure works by the orther of the persons with a case
2nd pers. - 1st pers. - VERB - 3rd-human - 3rd neutral
As this will be placed the subject, the direct and the idirect object with
their case indicated on their article
I think it is flexionnal but only 2 kinds of words vary, the articles in
number, case, definiteness, possesser...; and the verb in transitivity,
voice, and person (with the first argument appering in the sentence)
>7. How extensive would you say your invented language is, now? How big theWhat restrains my vocabulary is the fact there's no conworld with it, I
>vocabulary? Do you provide a vocabulary list or taxonomy on your website if
>you have one?
can't create animals, plants, tools and other word relative to the place you
>8. How do you build vocabulary? Some people pull words out of the air;I pull them out the of air. I'm not good in using roots but words with near
>others build up a base of root words and affixes. Many do both.
meanings are similar but the links are totally irregular.
>3. Does a constructed world accompany your invention(s)? What is it called?No, but I'll have to try someday
>*9. Has your language and conworld ever served in a role-playing game or anever..
>world shared by other conlangers?
>*10. Briefly describe your conculture (is it within the bounds of thisthere are none
>world? on another world, etc.?)
>*11. Are the beings who speak your invented language human or alien? IfI don't create aliens because, even if there are no proofs of their
>alien, what features have you given the language to make it alien or how
>have you restricted or expanded its phonology? vocabulary?
non-existence I simply can't believe that they may be similar to us enough
to talk like us and I'm not ready to create a strange phonologic way to make
>12. What do you write in it? Poems? chants? lullabyes? prayers? history?I don't write long texts, but I usually write phrases to send with emails to
>stories? recipes? Are any of these exhibited on your website?
>13. Can you speak your conlang? Are you fluent in it? Is this a goal forI'm not, but I will someday
>you? Have you tried to teach it to an intimate? a companion animal? :)
>14. Have you made any soundbytes of your language? Could you provide me atNo, I don't even have anything to record sounds
>a later date with a sample of them?
>*15. If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writingMy roman scripts writing are often phonetic or at least phonemic, it's
>system? In other words, do you use unconventional letters or letter
>combinations to represent sounds? Why or why not? Im thinking, of course,
>of Etabnannery, for those who remember it.
easier to master when I write
>16. How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for thatI've never tought about that but that's an idea I should thin about
>*17. How many of you, for entertainment or any other reason, resort toNo
>gibberish? (This is in response to Adrian Morgans question in December).
>Does it give you ideas for conlanging? (Have you ever fooled anyone?) How
>many of you have sung gibberish?
>*18. What on-line games do you play? (or devise?) Translations, Babel-text,None
>19. Which do you prefer doing: devising phonology? script? structure?Structure is something I like. Phonology and vocabuly are built
instictinvely with my feelings
>20. Do you start and stop several different conlangs, or do you tend toI start and stop severals.. But I should stick on one to improve it..
>stick with one and develop it over years?
>21. What do you think makes a "complete" conlang, if a conlang can attainIf and conlang can be spoke in everyday conversation, it is probably
>completion? What are your goals for completion? When do you grow "tired" of
>your conlang, or dont you?
>*22. Which came first: the conlang or the conworld?The conworld, writers as invented conworlds since the beggining of the
litterature, before linguists appear.
>I like voiced consonants, I usually include as few consonants I can in my
>C. PHILOSOPHY AND AESTHETIC:
>1. What aesthetic features do you value in inventing language? Be specific
>as to phonology, structure, script, etc.
conlangs. My current conlang has 5: /s/, /k/, /k_h/, /t/, and /t_h/, but has
a lot of voiced ones
Also, when I devise a structure, I like OSV order
>2. What commonly applied aesthetics have you ever tried to avoid in yourI don't know what you mean by "commonly aplied aesthetics", I do whatever I
>invention? This has been an oft debated question, especially when it comes
find aesthetic and the other's aestehtics don't influence me
>3. Is difficulty or obscurity a goal in inventing a language?No I like conlangs to seem natural
>4. Is efficiency a goal in inventing a language? This question needntIf I feel like this it will be like this...
>cancel out the previous one.
>5. How natural do you wish to make it, or is that a concern? Or rather, howI do it natural to make it easier to remember for myself, if I can't make it
>unnatural do you wish to make it?
work like I can think it will be longer to work on it.
If I decide to try unnaturality, it will be when I will be used to
>6. Can conlanging be sexy? sensual? obsessing? how does it heal or harmI don't have that relation with conanging we're just friends
>*7. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary of obscenities?I still don't but that's an important part of a language and to complete one
I'll create some
>8. Can it be mystical? To what extent does conlanging fulfill a spiritualCreate a conlang for magic.. No, I should first create the magic itself and
>purpose for you? Or a magical one? Did it ever start out that way?
I'm not sure I'd like it
>9. How many of you have developed a rich vocabulary of magical, religious,Same answer
>or incantatory terms?
>*10. How many of you have striven to invent words that express novel ideas,Complex emotionnal meaningful words? That's an idea and if such a conplex
>or are not expressed in any natural language that you know?
idea comes to my minds I'll do it but for now no.
>11. Name a few of the words in your language(s) that you are most pleasedI like the verb "wa-degwo" /wa'deg_wo/ that in sentence with "de" meaning
>with and are the most original to you.
"you" and "zehem dwego" meaning "his/her friend"
"de wa-degwod zeheg dwego" /de wa'deg_wOd ze'hEm 'd_wego/
I've heard you are his/her friend
>12. How do you sense that a word is "right" for its meaning? How much doWhen I think to a new important word to create, the word to mean it va venir
>you labor at fitting a sound to its sense? Or dont you care?
>*13. Do you ever rely on a software program to build vocabulary? Do thoseNo I don't do it, I think I loose the "contact" with the language if I don't
>who dont think thats cheating? :)
create a word by myself
>*14. Is conlang a hobby, a craft, or an art in your mind? This has beenCould it be an artistic hobby that used to be a craft for some? That's what
>hotly debated, so the question is not as weird as it seems. Can conlanging
>be considered an art? Why or why not?
I feel it to be
>*15. If it is, who do you think are its consumers?those who want to learn languages to admire linguistic features of a
language and the habilities of its creator, like any other art
>*16. This question is directed as well at any auxlangers on the list. Is itThese days, I don't think much conlangers can think their conlang are
>an art, a political tool, both? And who do you think could be its
"political tools" because a conlang one creates don't has chances of being
But what can't be an art? Something you create, even for yourself is an art.
>*17. There has been some exciting talk recently (and over the years) aboutI think those who appeared on the list but I never thought about one...
>what a conlang is or is not. If you could pick a metaphor or write a
>descriptive phrase defining "conlang," what would that be?
>*18. Why or why not would you eschew the metaphors "miniature" or "model"?I'd eschew
For me, and it seems obvious, a miniature or a model is suppose to model
something in miniature.. In other words, to immitate each details in a form
that is easier to handle to look it in ways you can't look on the original.
But a conlang isn't only a way to make something huge in a simpler and more
>*19. Is a conlang more like a glimpse of something lifesize? (Irinasho, maybe but I really don't know
>suggestion in 2001)
>*20. There has been some invigorating discussion lately about what aI've tried a conlang where the tense where represented by the word order:
>conlang can do that most natural languages dont (such as produce OSV
>structure, or eradicate verbs) What experiments have you made with your
>artlang(s) along these lines?
SOV = futur
SVO = present
VSO = past
with a case marking to distinc the three words
with the inversion of S and O for questions there where a signification for
the 6 orders.
>*21 What do you think distinguishes a conlang from a natural language, ifa clear grammatical description, a capacity to express complex feelings, a
>you think so at all? What would it take for a linguist to be fooled into
>thinking a conlang was a natural language?
number of irregularities would help a lot to seem natural but to really fool
a linguist it would need to have a way to link it with an existing family
conresponding with a place where is would have been discovered
If the conlang shares vocabulary and some features with languages of a
region and can seems reel, you only have to find an linguisticaly
undiscovered place in that region.
>*22. How much do you study other languages in order to discover what ison my internet page, I have links to go to grammars of tons of languages
>natural in language? Or to discover how you can stretch the boundaries of
>language to make it do things that are unnatural?
I've read to understand how some basic things are said or work in the
I have links to get to German, Arabic, Basque, Breton, Japanese, Romanain,
Swahili, Tagalog, Tamoul, Turquish, Vietnamese, Abenaki, Cree, Inuktitut,
Mudurucus, and Quechua to name only those I still remember something about
>*23. Can such a language function?Even if I read those links to see what is natural, why a conlang made to be
unnatural shouldn't work? At least it will be hard to learn, no more.
>*24. There has been quite a bit of fascinating debate about the relevanceConlangers are those who are interested in creation of languages. To create
>of conlanging to linguistic study. We all know that linguistics can aid
>conlangers, but in what ways can conlangers aid linguists? Or does it
languages, you have to learn things about linguistic. Because a conlang has
to be created by someone who interested in linguistic, the result is
automaticaly a work that contains applications of linguistic theories so it
has to have linguistic values
>By typing "conlang" on a search engine to read methods or ways to build a
>D. THE LISTSERV
>1. How did you first hear of this list?
conlang some months ago
>2. How long have you been on this listserv or on other related listservs?I've read everything since last December
>Continuously? Infrequently? Off and on? More off than on and vice versa?
>*3. What is the appeal of being on a listserv and contributing to it? DoMy talking on the list has probably not contributed of anything excpet by
>you think you contribute moderately or excessively, or not enough? Do you
>tend to lurk ?
throwing subjects on which others brought interesting things. The mojority
of what I've posted are questions that y'all answered to
>*4. For those of you who remember its inception, how has it changed overWasn't here, sorry
>the past decade?
>*5. How helpful has the list been in developing your language? In learningIt learned me a lot of things via the questions I've asked and to which I've
got answers. I'd probably have forgot conlanging without that list
>6. What books have you consulted? On your own, or because you heard of themOn my own, I've read books went I got to the library, books about languages,
>on the list?
grammars, language's families, but I didn't note the titles
>*7. Do you peruse the websites of other conlangers?yes at least the phonology but I usually stop when I can't remember more: I
try to learn the pronouns, the greetings, and as more I can and stop when I
Reading a little of the other's conlangs' descriptions is the basic of the
politeness, as I think
>*8. Do you sense that people on this list are interested in your conlangI've never posted any conlang so nobody ever had interest in my conlangs
>and give you feedback on it?
>9. Have you ever set out to learn at least a little bit of someonesphew I always try but can't... memory forgets
>conlang, if only a word or two, or a phrase?
>*10. Do you peruse Jeffrey Hennings Langmaker.com site?No it needs a website and I don't ave any
>*11. What on-line techniques do you use to showcase your conlang, such asNone
>Audacity or other sound programs, Dreamweaver, Illustrator, Fontography,
>and so forth? Did you hear of them on the list?
>12. Have you ever tried to introduce a friend to the list?No, my friends are not interested in linguistic.
>13. Do you know of anyone who does this kind of thing but who has neverNo
>heard of the list?
>*14. What other lists do you frequent related to conlanging?None
>*15. What do you think will be the future of the list? I see it givingI hope it will not divide in half-dozen of lists that will divide again
>birth to alternate lists like Conworld, Lostlanguages, Romlang, etc. What
>improves the present list and its helpfulness or entertainment value?
later. Combining subjects allows to pick what you want in the complete
reference that's that list.
>*16. What Internet technology would you most like to see developed thatTechnologicaly, internet didn't help me. Internet helped me only by being a
>would aid you in showcasing your language(s)?
great source of information, I don't wait for technologic help to do what
can be done without
>*17. What lists like conlang exist in other cultures and languages that youI don't know any others, but didn't search for neither
>*18. There has been some terrific talk about CONLANG as a community. AndWhat would mean "know and respect it"? Do you really NEED expressed respect
>yet so many of us seem to want the world to know of it and respect it. Is
>the CONLANG community enough?
from people who really don't care about what we talk about?
There are thousand of people out there that never tought that creating a
language bould be possible and we'd want them to respect us... they never
didn't respect us so what are we hoping for?
>*19. In my 2000 on-line articleSure, an "inutile and obsessive activity" is normal, but has it to be
>(http://journal.media-culture.org.au/0003/languages.php) I suggested that
>the Internet "may provide a site that, with the impetus of competition and
>showmanship, encourages inutile and obsessive activity"; I was quoting Jeff
>Salamons article "Revenge of the Fanboys." Village Voice 13 Sep., 1994. He
>wrote that over ten years ago. Do outsiders still entertain such notions,
>do you think, about listservs like this one? Do you? To what extent has the
>list increased obsessive development in you? Would you be inventing as
>furiously as you are without the list or knowledge of other inventors?
encouraged? An activity, hobby or passion, is what one choses to do and we
don't have the right to impose, suggest, or encourage them..
>20. If asked whether it is not better to turn your linguistic talents toI'd say: "Could I not do both?"
>the learning and speaking of natural languages (a common response Ive met
>with and aimed at criticizing introversion or solipsism), how would you
I've met that situation a lot of times
>*21. In Elizabethan times there were the inkhorn neologisms. There wereA great part of the modern worldis unconcious of it's existance. The world
>ciphers and pasigraphies. Today there is conlanging. Do you think the
>contemporary world is more open to language innovation or more closed?
is neither open of closed, it simply lives with...
>*22. What would Tolkien have done with such a community? He writes in "AWe are between these two times, the one of Tolkien and the moment when it
>Secret Vice" that language inventors "hardly ever show their works to one
>another, so none of them know who are the geniuses at the game, or who are
>the splendid primitives." He suggests that perhaps in a later time
>language invention will become respectable, and such things can be
>exhibited. Have we reached that time?
will be respectable
People will get shy of showing they conlang but there are a lot of people
who will, tolerate, accept, understand, and be impressed by that
>*23. Is there a danger that over-exposure can make conlanging "banal"? ToHow would it be banal?
>what extent is it exciting because it is a) considered disreputable,
>"corny" or "mad," or b) largely unknown to the world? Does it have a
>fizzle-out date? In other words, is it just a fad, or is it a natural
>human inclination that will stand the test of time?
Is painting banal? Surely not, even if watching paintings is easy and
normal. Same thing for all creations, the quantity doesn't disturb
>Finally, may I have your permission to use any of this material of yoursSure, you can!
>for my academic work on conlanging? First name? last name? pseudonym?
- My plan was to answer to all replies in "part 2" to be written,
but I made a too big blunder...
The beautiful language of Valdyas are named "Ilaini", not "Iliani".