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CHAT: online etymological dictionary (was: Intergermansk - Three Rings)

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  • J. 'Mach' Wust
    ... ... Ah, that book seems to be available online: http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/pgmc_torp_about.html Always nice to know free etymological
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 1, 2005
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      On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:44:51 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <pkramm@...> wrote:

      >On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:49:36 +0000, Stephen Mulraney
      ...
      >>As for the German words "dunkel" and "Herr", I can't think of English
      >>cognates at the moment. Are there any still around? "Dunkel" doesn't
      >>sound too different from "dark" anyway, especially if we exclude the
      >>"-el" ending. Oh, just noticed: Pascal says it's cognate to "dusk".
      >
      >That's according to the protogermanic dictionary by Torp.
      ...

      Ah, that book seems to be available online:

      http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/pgmc_torp_about.html

      Always nice to know free etymological dictionaries! This one's quite old
      (1909), but appearently still a usuable reference for Germanic cognate sets.
      It's in German, though. And the alphabetical order is according to Indian
      scripts (well, it's much more logical)! Wait, I see that Pascal must be
      referring to a different source, since this book doesn't relate "dunkel" to
      "dusk" (in the entry "(dem)"):

      http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/png/pgmc_torp/b0201.png

      kry@s:
      j. 'mach' wust
    • Pascal A. Kramm
      ... That book is just a scan of the original, it s not the corrected version by Sean Crist that I have. Go download the pdf version and look there (it has a
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 3, 2005
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        On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:28:43 -0500, J. 'Mach' Wust <j_mach_wust@...> wrote:

        >http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/pgmc_torp_about.html
        >
        >Always nice to know free etymological dictionaries! This one's quite old
        >(1909), but appearently still a usuable reference for Germanic cognate sets.
        >It's in German, though. And the alphabetical order is according to Indian
        >scripts (well, it's much more logical)! Wait, I see that Pascal must be
        >referring to a different source, since this book doesn't relate "dunkel" to
        >"dusk" (in the entry "(dem)"):
        >
        >http://penguin.pearson.swarthmore.edu/~scrist1/scanned_books/png/pgmc_torp/b0201.png

        That book is just a scan of the original, it's not the corrected version by
        Sean Crist that I have. Go download the pdf version and look there (it has a
        very freaky encoding though, which makes searching for words containing
        special characters tricky...)

        Also, there's not just a single entry for "dunkel", but several:

        erpa, arpa dunkel s. reupôn. (26:4)

        kêma belegt, schmutzig, kêma, kêmi m. Ru ß,
        Schmutz. norw. mundartl. kaam belegt,
        dunkel, isl. kám n. Schmutzrinde; engl. coom

        (hel) 9. dunkel, schwarz sein.

        (hu) 1. bedecken. In. an. hûm n. Zwielicht.
        h^yma dämmern, dunkel werden.

        (þem) dunkel sein.

        þemara (oder temaz-) m. Dunkel,
        Dämmerung. ahd. demar m., md. demere
        f., ahd. demerunga, md. demerunge f.
        crepusculum, nhd. Dämmerung.

        denkva dunkel s. dem. (200:4)

        (dem) stieben, rauchen, dampfen. In nnorw.
        daam dunkel (aus dêma), daame m. Wolkenschleier,
        daam m. Geschmack, Geruch = an.
        dâmr Geschmack.

        denkva dunkel. an. dø kkr dunkel; afries.
        diunk dass. Wz. denk, Weiterbildung zu
        dem. Vgl. norw. daam dunkel und ir. deim
        dass. Ablaut und anderes Suffix (germ.
        dunkara, dunkala) in as. dunkar, ahd.
        tunkal, nhd. dunkel. Ursprügliche Bedeutung:
        von Dunst umgeben. Hierzu auch
        norw. mundartl. dunken feucht, moderig,
        engl. dank, mundartl. dunk feucht.

        dumba trube (eig. umnebelt), dunkel,
        stumm.

        (derk) dunkel sein. In ags. deorc dunkel (aus
        derka), engl. dark

        (dug) dunkel sein (?). In germ. daug(a)la: ags.
        d éagol, dí egle heimlich; ahd. tougal, dougal
        dunkel, verborgen, geheim.

        vvvv ATTENTION PLEASE vvvv

        duska 3. dunkel. ags. dosc dunkel,
        engl. dusk Zwielicht.

        ^^^^ SEE THIS? ^^^^

        This is what I was referring to.
        There are still some more entries for "dunkel",but I'll leave it at that.

        --
        Pascal A. Kramm, author of:
        Intergermansk: http://www.choton.org/ig/
        Chatiga: http://www.choton.org/chatiga/
        Choton: http://www.choton.org
        Ichwara Prana: http://www.choton.org/ichwara/
        Skälansk: http://www.choton.org/sk/
        Advanced English: http://www.choton.org/ae/
      • J. 'Mach' Wust
        On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:00:49 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm quoted ... Thanks for the quote. This is very obviously the one and only reference to the
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 4, 2005
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          On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:00:49 -0500, Pascal A. Kramm <pkramm@...> quoted
          from Falk/Frick/Torp (1909): Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit:

          >denkva dunkel. an. dø kkr dunkel; afries.
          >diunk dass. Wz. denk, Weiterbildung zu
          >dem. Vgl. norw. daam dunkel und ir. deim
          >dass. Ablaut und anderes Suffix (germ.
          >dunkara, dunkala) in as. dunkar, ahd.
          >tunkal, nhd. dunkel. Ursprüngliche Bedeutung:
          >von Dunst umgeben. Hierzu auch
          >norw. mundartl. dunken feucht, moderig,
          >engl. dank, mundartl. dunk feucht.

          Thanks for the quote. This is very obviously the one and only reference to
          the origin of modern German _dunkel_ in that book. All the other occurences
          of _dunkel_ don't refer to the origin of that word, but are tranlations of
          other words.

          In order to read a dictionary, you need to distinguish between the lemma,
          that is, the word that's being described, and the words that describe the
          lemma (translate it, transphrase it, or whatever).

          Unfortunately, that book doesn't make a typographical distinction between
          the described words and the descriptive words, but it presupposes that the
          reader is able to do so by himself.

          kry@s:
          j. 'mach' wust
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