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195224Re: On Creating Altlangs

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  • Adam Walker
    Feb 19, 2013
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      Years back someone was working on a Vulgar Latin with Chinese sound
      changes bogolang, IIRC.

      Adam

      On 2/19/13, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro <hcesarcastro@...> wrote:
      > I see people creating altlangs/bogolangs between (somewhat) closely related
      > families. Usually Indo-european ones.
      >
      > Does anyone here know of an alt/bogolang based on non-related families, or
      > maybe somewhat related families if you consider the controversial
      > macro-families of Nostratic or Dené-Caucasian? Something like a Uralic
      > language that looks like Indo-European? Or an Indo-European language that
      > looks like Eskimo-Aleut?
      >
      > Furthermore, has anyone seen an alt/bogolang based on completely
      > non-related families, like a Mapudungun language that looks like Bantu or
      > Khoisan?
      >
      >
      > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 3:13 PM, James Kane <kanejam@...> wrote:
      >
      >> Romanian is almost a real life altlang and IMO quite a cool language. It
      >> doesn't have an identical phonology to the surrounding Balkan or Slavic
      >> languages, nor did it go through the same sound changes but it is
      >> obviously
      >> influenced by them and different enough from the other Romance languages
      >> (while still obviously Romance) without resembling greatly any other
      >> language.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On 20/02/2013, at 5:11 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> > Hallo conlangers!
      >> >
      >> > On Tuesday 19 February 2013 09:19:46 R A Brown wrote:
      >> >
      >> >> On 18/02/2013 20:43, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
      >> >>> Hallo conlangers!
      >> >>
      >> >>> On Monday 18 February 2013 14:58:54 R A Brown wrote:
      >> >> [...]
      >> >>
      >> >>>> My understanding is that Brithenig did start out as an
      >> >>>> altlang: What would modern British Romance be like if
      >> >>>> spoken Latin had survived the withdrawal of the
      >> >>>> legions? But IMO it did lean too far in the bogolang
      >> >>>> direction. It certainly gives that appearance.
      >> >>>
      >> >>> Yes. Brithenig is not really a bogolang, but it gets
      >> >>> close, and is guilty of treading loose a wave of
      >> >>> bogolangs.
      >> >>
      >> >> I agree on both points.
      >> >
      >> > Good.
      >> >
      >> >> [snip]
      >> >>
      >> >>>> Indeed - and also whether it is a genuine altlang, i.e.
      >> >>>> the way a language might plausibly have developed if
      >> >>>> history had been different, or whether it is a
      >> >>>> bogolang, i.e. early Germanic with the sound changes of
      >> >>>> a Slavonic group.
      >> >>>
      >> >>> Yes. That is a difference. Of course, we cannot say
      >> >>> that a bogolang was *impossible* - it is just very
      >> >>> unlikely,
      >> >>
      >> >> I cannot think of any actual examples among natlangs. The
      >> >> Slav influence on Romanian is obvious, and French acquired
      >> >> the front rounded vowels of neighboring Germanic, but
      >> >> neither are bogolangs.
      >> >
      >> > Indeed not. French, for instance, does not have the kind of umlaut
      >> > process German has - it arrived at its front rounded vowels in a
      >> > completely different way.
      >> >
      >> > Another example are the various regional dialects of diaspora
      >> > languages such as Yiddish or Romani. They never are bogolangs;
      >> > they simply did not ape the sound changes of the relevant host
      >> > country's language.
      >> >
      >> >> Creole are often cited as taking one
      >> >> language and applying the phonology of another, but the
      >> >> results certainly do not resemble bogolangs.
      >> >
      >> > That characterization of creoles indeed flies only so far, and
      >> > creoles do not resemble bogolangs in any meaningful way.
      >> >
      >> >> ============================================================
      >> >>
      >> >> On 18/02/2013 20:58, And Rosta wrote:
      >> >> [British Romance]
      >> >>> My first guess, made from a position of near-ignorance on
      >> >>> my part, is that it would be rather like northern French.
      >> >>> If that guess is along the right lines, then a further
      >> >>> question would be in what ways it might be expected to
      >> >>> differ from northern French.
      >> >>
      >> >> Certainly the way Vulgar Latin developed in northern Gaul
      >> >> would probably not be so different. My main criticism of
      >> >> Brithenig is that it does not IMO make sufficient allowance
      >> >> for influence from sister Romancelangs.
      >> >
      >> > And I concur with this criticism.
      >> >
      >> >> The various
      >> >> Romancelangs of western Europe were always in contact and
      >> >> exercising some influence on one another. It's all very
      >> >> well having the Vulgar Latin of Dacia developing in
      >> >> isolation, but I don't think having the Vulgar Latin of
      >> >> Britain behaving similarly is likely.
      >> >
      >> > Yes. This is a great difference between British Celtic and a
      >> > hypothetical British Romance. British Celtic had no dialect
      >> > continuum on the continent to connect with after about 400 AD,
      >> > as Continental Celtic was extinct. British Romance would
      >> > interact with Gallo-Romance, as the sea connects as much as it
      >> > separates. It would be part of the Western Romance dialect
      >> > continuum.
      >> >
      >> >> As for differences between a British Romance & norther
      >> >> Francien? Probably front rounded vowels would not have
      >> >> maintained themselves. The continental [ø] and [œ] had
      >> >> already given way to unrounded sounds in Old English, and
      >> >> the same happened later with Anglo-Norman borrowings, cf.
      >> >> bœef ~ beef. The Old English [y] eventually became
      >> >> unrounded, tho later the Anglo-Norman [y] became [iw].
      >> >
      >> > Front rounded vowels also disappeared in Welsh; whether they
      >> > were preserved in Cornish is AFAIK a contentious matter among
      >> > Cornish revivalists. Breton, at any rate, has them.
      >> >
      >> > So yes, a loss of front rounded vowels in British Romance is
      >> > not unlikely.
      >> >
      >> >> Old French had a rich set of diphthongs and a few
      >> >> triphthongs besides; later these all gave way to the
      >> >> monophthongs of modern French. I see no reason to suppose
      >> >> that a British romance would have behaved the same way.
      >> >
      >> > I see no such reason, either. British Romance may have a rich
      >> > inventory of diphthongs and triphthongs.
      >> >
      >> >> Old northern French also had the phones [θ] and [ð]; they
      >> >> are now lost in modern French. But as both Welsh & English
      >> >> retain them (including in Anglo-Norman borrowing such as
      >> >> _faith_), it is surely like that a British Romance would
      >> >> have retained these phones also.
      >> >
      >> > Quite likely, I think.
      >> >
      >> >> So, yes, one must IMO have regard to how Vulgar Latin
      >> >> developed in northern France, but I'm sure a British
      >> >> Romancelang would be quite distinctive from modern French,
      >> >> just as french is distinctive from neighboring Italian,
      >> >> Catalan or Spanish.
      >> >
      >> > Sure.
      >> >
      >> > And as for the initial mutations of Brithenig, it is far from
      >> > certain that a British Romance language would have them. After
      >> > all, English doesn't. This of course raises the question *when*
      >> > these mutations arose in the Insular Celtic languages. Most
      >> > Celticists AFAIK assume that they happened between 400 and 800
      >> > AD (and Continental Celtic languages never developed them, Dan
      >> > Jones's Arvorec notwithstanding), but the name _Britannia_ seems
      >> > to have a mutated initial (otherwise it would be _**Pritannia_,
      >> > cf. Welsh _Prydein_) - but the /t/ in it shows that intervocalic
      >> > lenition had not happened yet in British Celtic of 2000 years ago.
      >> >
      >> >> =============================================================
      >> >>
      >> >> On 19/02/2013 05:16, James Kane wrote:
      >> >>> I have done a Vulgar Latin descended from proto-Germanic
      >> >>> which isn't too bad because the cases and tenses of
      >> >>> proto-Germanic collapse nicely,
      >> >>
      >> >> Yep - and don't forget that Vulgar Latin had two cases,
      >> >> which were preserved in Old French and in Old Provençal.
      >> >> (Thinks: Would "Old Britannic" have preserved them?)
      >> >
      >> > Perhaps; perhaps not. But eventually, they would have been lost.
      >> >
      >> >>> but there was a bit of tempering of the phonology.
      >> >>
      >> >> Yes - there usually has to be some fudging here because
      >> >> other languages rarely have the same phonetic inventory as
      >> >> Vulgar Latin.
      >> >
      >> > Amen! I had to fudge the sound changes, especially the vowel
      >> > changes, *a lot* when I was doing Roman Germanech because
      >> > Common West Germanic is quite far away from Vulgar Latin in terms
      >> > of phonology!
      >> >
      >> >>> Obviously altlangs are much more interesting to do but
      >> >>> bogolangs are good for beginners who wish to explore
      >> >>> diachronic sound changes without as much effort.
      >> >>
      >> >> Indeed - quite a good exercise for beginners and IMO more
      >> >> worthwhile than the "relex of English" which is often done.
      >> >
      >> > Sure.
      >> >
      >> > --
      >> > ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
      >> > http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
      >> > "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
      >>
      >
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