183481Re: Further info on tense marking for nouns
- Oct 13, 2011On 12/10/2011 19:44, Anthony Miles wrote:
> Here's a smaller, but English-language resource for Oldhttp://paradisec.org.au/SELexicon/index-english/main.htm
> Tupi: http://www.unilang.org/course.php?res=82
> You might want to cross-reference.
> South Efate also marks tense on nouns:
The links you found earlier were very interesting. As far
as I can see, the majority of examples showed nominal tense
to be basically what I've understood it to be, i.e. its
scope extends over the noun phrase, not over the whole
clause (or sentence), i.e. house.PAST = something that was a
house, a ruin, etc.
The only example I have found of noun tense being the tense
of the whole clause is from Australian language 'Pitta
pitta' (aka Bidhabidha _or_ Bida-bida):
Ngamari-ngu ngunytyi ngali-ku
mother-NOM.FUT give we.DU-ACC.FUT.
"Mother will give us the doctor's meat."
Here the verb is unmarked for tense, and all the nouns are
marked 'future.' This is more or less what John Erikson
suggested in his email of 24th Sept.
But, Pitta pitta being a natlang, things are clearly not so
simple because in the same article we had an example of the
same sentence in the past tense:
Ngamari-lu ngunytyi-ka ngali-nha
mother-ERG give-PAST we.DU-ACC.
"Mother gave us the doctor's meat."
Here the nouns are unmarked for tense, the past tense being
marked on the verb. Also the agent is expressed by the
ergative, not the nominative case. One would like to know
more, but the article gives no more details.
On 12/10/2011 22:48, Adam Walker wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Charles W Brickner
>> -----Original Message----- From: Constructed Languages
>> List On Behalf Of Adam Walker Sent: Wednesday,
>> October 12, 2011 3:11 PM
>> includes the repeated line "Adonai melech. Adonai
>> malach. Adonai yimloch."
>> If I remember my Hebrew correctly from the seminary at
>> Catholic U. this is what we have:
>> Adonai (is) king. No copula necessary.
>> Adonai reigned. The perfect of malak, to reign.
>> Adonai will reign. The imperfect of malak.
Dominus regnat. Dominus regnabit. Dominus regnavit.
> So is there any reason it couldn't be reinterpreted as
> kings/kang/will king (couldn't resist making it a strong
> verb) making it a tense marked noun? Or rather, and
> more on topic, is there any reason why it couldn't be
> evolved in just such a way for conlanging purposes.
No reason for _conlanging_ purposes. One of things about
conlangs is that we can re-interpret features of natlangs
and try out our re-interpretations and see how they run.
I mean, as for as conlanging goes, you could re-interpret
the Latin "regnat, regnabit, regnavit" as three nouns with
tense makings and develop a conlang accordingly. But, of
course, it does not effect one whit the fact that the actual
Latin words are verbs.
Similarly a re-interpretation of the Hebrew will not make
any difference to Hebrew grammar, but it could serve as a
basis for a conlang.
On 12/10/2011 23:48, Adam Walker wrote:
> David melech. David kings.
> Davad malach. David kang.
> Yidvod yimloch. David will king.
> Now do you have three sentences composed entirely of
> tense-marked nouns, or three sentences composed entirely
> of verbs -- some of which are proper names?
I don't see how being both verbs will work, unless we have
parataxis, then we'd have six verbs without marked subject.
If we assume, as Latin and Romancelangs except French, that
the 'subject is in the verb, we'd have:
He davids; he kings.
He davided; he kang.
He will david; he will king.
The last must surely mean that he is not yet called David!
> Either way it's weird, but why couldn't it work?
As the example from Pitta pitta showed, it could work for
nouns - but I don't see how it's going to work out if they
are all considered to be verbs.
In any case, I thought the original idea was to retain
verbs, but not mark them for tense, leaving tense marking to
nouns. The examples above are all sentences which either
use a copula or, in many languages, no verb.
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
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