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Re: [conculture] Re: The Order of Knights Vigilant (In the Name of Christ)

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  • Pavel A. da Mek
    ... Are there some priests also among the vampires, and live on the blood transubstantiated from wine? ... All vampires or ony those who hunt humans? ... Can
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 1 5:51 AM
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      > this secret "Congregation of Vigilance" does include a few Catholic
      > priests

      Are there some priests also among the vampires, and live on the blood
      transubstantiated from wine?

      > the Congregation sometimes hunts down what they perceive as genuine
      > threats. These include vampires.

      All vampires or ony those who hunt humans?

      > they must subsist on blood.

      Can it be animal blood, or must it be human blood?

      > Since vampires are supernatural creatures, other supernatural events
      > tend to occur in their vicinity. Like attracts like.

      What is the meanig of "supernatural"? Something which is above the
      current level of science?

      > Since they have predatory instincts, vampires tend to be territorial.

      Are all vampires hunters or are there also herdsmen who have a flock of
      humans, either imprisoned or voluntarily trading the blood for the
      opiate?

      P.A.
    • David
      ... There may be vampire priests, but transubstantiated wine does not provide nourishment. ... All vampires. ... Vampires prefer human blood, but can survive
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 1 7:11 AM
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        --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "Pavel A. da Mek" <a.da_mek0@...> wrote:
        >
        > > this secret "Congregation of Vigilance" does include a few Catholic
        > > priests
        >
        > Are there some priests also among the vampires, and live on the blood
        > transubstantiated from wine?
        >

        There may be vampire priests, but transubstantiated wine does not provide nourishment.


        > > the Congregation sometimes hunts down what they perceive as genuine
        > > threats. These include vampires.
        >
        > All vampires or ony those who hunt humans?
        >

        All vampires.

        > > they must subsist on blood.
        >
        > Can it be animal blood, or must it be human blood?
        >

        Vampires prefer human blood, but can survive on animal blood.


        > > Since vampires are supernatural creatures, other supernatural events
        > > tend to occur in their vicinity. Like attracts like.
        >
        > What is the meanig of "supernatural"? Something which is above the
        > current level of science?
        >

        As in "magic."

        > > Since they have predatory instincts, vampires tend to be territorial.
        >
        > Are all vampires hunters or are there also herdsmen who have a flock of
        > humans, either imprisoned or voluntarily trading the blood for the
        > opiate?
        >
        > P.A.

        There are both.

        Zahir
      • caeruleancentaur
        ... Given the Catholic Church s teaching *here* on transubstantiation, this would not work. Transubstantiation changes only the substance of the wine, not the
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 1 7:13 AM
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          > "Pavel A. da Mek" <a.da_mek0@...> wrote:
          >
          > Are there some priests also among the vampires, and live on the
          > blood transubstantiated from wine?

          Given the Catholic Church's teaching *here* on transubstantiation, this would not work.

          Transubstantiation changes only the substance of the wine, not the accidents. Therefore, the bouquet of the wine, its color, its nutrient content would still be there. There would not be the nutrients of blood which, I should think, is what a vampire is looking for in drinking blood.

          Not to mention that, if a vampire is bothered by a cross and by holy water, how much more by the divine presence in the transubstantiated wine!

          Charlie
        • Pavel A. da Mek
          ... What a pity, that also means that it is not possible to read the Christ s DNA from it. ... I suppose that in such way behave the vampires possessed by an
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 1 9:31 AM
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            > Transubstantiation changes only the substance of the wine, not the
            > accidents. Therefore, the bouquet of the wine, its color, its
            > nutrient content would still be there.

            What a pity, that also means that it is not possible to read the
            Christ's DNA from it.

            > Not to mention that, if a vampire is bothered by a cross and by holy
            > water, how much more by the divine presence in the transubstantiated
            > wine!

            I suppose that in such way behave the vampires possessed by an evil
            spirit, which bades them to obtain the blood by a violent way. But a
            vampire, who would consume the blood in the way which is not only
            allowed but even recommended, would not have any reason to fear a cross
            or holy water.

            P.A.
          • Padraic Brown
            ... Indeed. You ll need Longinus s spear for thát. ... I suppose it could be explained that the whole holy water thing is a legend, perhaps perpetrated by the
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 1 10:02 AM
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              --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Pavel A. da Mek <a.da_mek0@...> wrote:

              > > Transubstantiation changes only the substance of the
              > > wine, not the
              > > accidents. Therefore, the bouquet of the wine, its
              > > color, its
              > > nutrient content would still be there.
              >
              > What a pity, that also means that it is not possible to
              > read the Christ's DNA from it.

              Indeed. You'll need Longinus's spear for thát.

              > > Not to mention that, if a vampire is bothered by a
              > > cross and by holy
              > > water, how much more by the divine presence in the
              > > transubstantiated wine!
              >
              > I suppose that in such way behave the vampires possessed by
              > an evil
              > spirit, which bades them to obtain the blood by a violent
              > way. But a
              > vampire, who would consume the blood in the way which is
              > not only
              > allowed but even recommended, would not have any reason to
              > fear a cross or holy water.

              I suppose it could be explained that the whole holy water thing is a legend, perhaps perpetrated by the vampires themselves? After all, if a vampire is really unaffected and wishes to remain undetected, what better ruse than to obfuscate the issue by saying "well, of cóurse all vampires are affected by crosses and holy water!"

              Padraic

              > P.A.
            • Padraic Brown
              ... This one might be kind of hard to explain realistically, given the general anatomy of the human maxilla as compared with say a rattlesnake s upper jaws. In
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 1 12:04 PM
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                --- On Tue, 3/31/09, David <zahir13@...> wrote:

                > My vampires are in a state of slow, steady mutation towards
                > a form very few ever achieve. Quite simply, they don't
                > live that long (over a thousand years), not usually. More,
                > very few people can become vampires because their bodies
                > will most often reject the "infection", but at
                > different rates. Thus some might begin to become vampiric
                > after being bitten, then return to normal. Others would
                > simply be weakened, or made sick, or sometime simply die.
                > But others were transform all the way--again, the rate
                > varies. Some quickly, some slowly.
                >
                > They are nocturnal, mostly because of the sensitivity of
                > their eyes. Although initially quite capable of eating
                > normal food, they eventually lose the desire for same and
                > the ability to digest it. Increasingly, they must subsist
                > on blood. When they sleep, it is akin to hibernation and
                > under some circumstances can last a very long time indeed
                > (when healing wounds, for example).
                >
                > Along with retractable fangs,

                This one might be kind of hard to explain realistically, given the general anatomy of the human maxilla as compared with say a rattlesnake's upper jaws. In a snake, the retracted teeth rest in an area where there are no other teeth in the way and have special muscles that do the retracting and extending. There are no muscles in that part of the human body for the magic to work on; and also, all the rest of your teeth would get in the way of the retracted fangs, so a vampire would end up not being able to close his mouth with fangs retracted upon the other teeth. I guess you could just wave a magic wand and pouf the problems away, but you wère looking for reasonable, right? I might suggest as an alternative, just normal fangs (perhaps a third set of teeth the growth of which is spurred by becoming a vampire) that don't retract.

                > vampires gain venom sacs.

                This one could be explained as modifications to a pair of salivary glands. Perhaps the vampire mutation causes these glands to produce venom. I think venom sacs could be reasonably explained.

                > The venom serves multiple functions. One is a source of
                > infection. Another is an anti-coagulant/healing factor, to
                > allow feeding and yet help the prey recover quickly. Plus
                > it is a powerful opiate, to which humans can become
                > addicted.

                All of these things are already produced by our bodies (thouth not necessarily delivered in saliva!). It would be a matter of modifying already existing hardware.

                > Nearly all vampires gain psychic abilities of some kind or
                > other, which grow over time. Since they have predatory
                > instincts, vampires tend to be territorial. Their social
                > unit is usually dubbed a "circle" which can be
                > close-knit or a vague association, depending upon
                > circumstances.

                Are they matriarchal? Promiscuous, monagamous? Non-sexual?

                > Since vampires are supernatural creatures, other
                > supernatural events tend to occur in their vicinity. Like
                > attracts like.

                Kind of like folk dancing.

                > Vampires can be killed by dismemberment and/or burning,
                > although sufficient damage can do the job as well (just not
                > as reliably). Piercing one or more major organs with a
                > fairly thick weapon and keeping it in the wound so the flesh
                > cannot heal properly usually works as well.

                I have used that latter trick for some people in the World. So long as their bodies remained "unviolated" by for example stakes, weapons, arrows and the like, they could regenerate. Likewise, if buried, even for eons, if the bones were exposed at some point in the future, they could regenerate as well.

                > Many vampires develop allergies after the Change, to things
                > like garlic or wild roses or some such.

                Better stock up on Claritin, if you've been bitten!

                > Others are driven
                > more-or-less insane by the experience, with
                > obsessive-compulsive behavior a not-uncommon reaction (such
                > as counting grains of rice).

                I like that kind of turn-about. Many magical powers in the World are accompanied by some kind of spiritual/mental oddness (at the least) or sickness (in some more serious cases).

                > Zahir

                Padraic
              • caeruleancentaur
                ... Why would the fangs need to be retractable? The only reason they are retractable in vipers is so that they can deliver a deep injection of venom. Gila
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 1 5:07 PM
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                  --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "David" <zahir13@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Along with retractable fangs, vampires gain venom sacs.

                  Why would the fangs need to be retractable? The only reason they are retractable in vipers is so that they can deliver a deep injection of venom.

                  Gila monsters have the venom injected by short fangs. They chew on the victim to make sure the poison enters the blood stream.

                  I also believe that sea snakes do not have long fangs. Often those bitten by a sea snake do not receive any poison because the bite was not back far enough.

                  Of course, the long fangs could be external like the saber-tooth had, but then it wouldn't be possible for a vampire to be incognito!

                  Charlie
                • David
                  ... ... The fangs don t retract very much, and do so mostly to help inject the venom into prey when suddenly extending. It is actually the tissue of
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 1 10:19 PM
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                    --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, David <zahir13@...> wrote:
                    >
                    <SNIP>
                    > >
                    > > Along with retractable fangs,
                    >
                    > This one might be kind of hard to explain realistically, given the general anatomy of the human maxilla as compared with say a rattlesnake's upper jaws. In a snake, the retracted teeth rest in an area where there are no other teeth in the way and have special muscles that do the retracting and extending. There are no muscles in that part of the human body for the magic to work on; and also, all the rest of your teeth would get in the way of the retracted fangs, so a vampire would end up not being able to close his mouth with fangs retracted upon the other teeth. I guess you could just wave a magic wand and pouf the problems away, but you wère looking for reasonable, right? I might suggest as an alternative, just normal fangs (perhaps a third set of teeth the growth of which is spurred by becoming a vampire) that don't retract.
                    >

                    The fangs don't retract very much, and do so mostly to help inject the venom into prey when suddenly extending. It is actually the tissue of the fangs themselves that allow retraction as well as sudden sharpening. My vampires can alter details of their tissue by an act of will and/or instinct--an ability that grows over time until very old vampires have to use this power to look more human.



                    > > vampires gain venom sacs.
                    >
                    > This one could be explained as modifications to a pair of salivary glands. Perhaps the vampire mutation causes these glands to produce venom. I think venom sacs could be reasonably explained.
                    >
                    > > The venom serves multiple functions. One is a source of
                    > > infection. Another is an anti-coagulant/healing factor, to
                    > > allow feeding and yet help the prey recover quickly. Plus
                    > > it is a powerful opiate, to which humans can become
                    > > addicted.
                    >
                    > All of these things are already produced by our bodies (thouth not necessarily delivered in saliva!). It would be a matter of modifying already existing hardware.
                    >
                    > > Nearly all vampires gain psychic abilities of some kind or
                    > > other, which grow over time. Since they have predatory
                    > > instincts, vampires tend to be territorial. Their social
                    > > unit is usually dubbed a "circle" which can be
                    > > close-knit or a vague association, depending upon
                    > > circumstances.
                    >
                    > Are they matriarchal? Promiscuous, monagamous? Non-sexual?
                    >

                    Like humans, it all depends.


                    > > Since vampires are supernatural creatures, other
                    > > supernatural events tend to occur in their vicinity. Like
                    > > attracts like.
                    >
                    > Kind of like folk dancing.
                    >

                    Well, naturally.

                    > > Vampires can be killed by dismemberment and/or burning,
                    > > although sufficient damage can do the job as well (just not
                    > > as reliably). Piercing one or more major organs with a
                    > > fairly thick weapon and keeping it in the wound so the flesh
                    > > cannot heal properly usually works as well.
                    >
                    > I have used that latter trick for some people in the World. So long as their bodies remained "unviolated" by for example stakes, weapons, arrows and the like, they could regenerate. Likewise, if buried, even for eons, if the bones were exposed at some point in the future, they could regenerate as well.
                    >
                    > > Many vampires develop allergies after the Change, to things
                    > > like garlic or wild roses or some such.
                    >
                    > Better stock up on Claritin, if you've been bitten!
                    >
                    > > Others are driven
                    > > more-or-less insane by the experience, with
                    > > obsessive-compulsive behavior a not-uncommon reaction (such
                    > > as counting grains of rice).
                    >
                    > I like that kind of turn-about. Many magical powers in the World are accompanied by some kind of spiritual/mental oddness (at the least) or sickness (in some more serious cases).
                    >
                    > > Zahir
                    >
                    > Padraic
                    >

                    Thankee.
                  • David
                    ... Except of course, when people actually believed in vampires they didn t believe them affected by crosses and holy water! Zahir
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 1 10:22 PM
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                      --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, Padraic Brown <elemtilas@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, Pavel A. da Mek <a.da_mek0@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > > Transubstantiation changes only the substance of the
                      > > > wine, not the
                      > > > accidents. Therefore, the bouquet of the wine, its
                      > > > color, its
                      > > > nutrient content would still be there.
                      > >
                      > > What a pity, that also means that it is not possible to
                      > > read the Christ's DNA from it.
                      >
                      > Indeed. You'll need Longinus's spear for thát.
                      >
                      > > > Not to mention that, if a vampire is bothered by a
                      > > > cross and by holy
                      > > > water, how much more by the divine presence in the
                      > > > transubstantiated wine!
                      > >
                      > > I suppose that in such way behave the vampires possessed by
                      > > an evil
                      > > spirit, which bades them to obtain the blood by a violent
                      > > way. But a
                      > > vampire, who would consume the blood in the way which is
                      > > not only
                      > > allowed but even recommended, would not have any reason to
                      > > fear a cross or holy water.
                      >
                      > I suppose it could be explained that the whole holy water thing is a legend, perhaps perpetrated by the vampires themselves? After all, if a vampire is really unaffected and wishes to remain undetected, what better ruse than to obfuscate the issue by saying "well, of cóurse all vampires are affected by crosses and holy water!"
                      >
                      > Padraic
                      >
                      > > P.A.
                      >

                      Except of course, when people actually believed in vampires they didn't believe them affected by crosses and holy water!

                      Zahir
                    • bo_arthur
                      ... As much as I appreciate the physical extension of the fangs for fear factor, I think it s all the more fearful that you can t spot a vampire that way --
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 2 8:16 AM
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                        --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "caeruleancentaur" <caeruleancentaur@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "David" <zahir13@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Along with retractable fangs, vampires gain venom sacs.
                        >
                        > Why would the fangs need to be retractable? The only reason they are retractable in vipers is so that they can deliver a deep injection of venom.
                        >
                        > Gila monsters have the venom injected by short fangs. They chew on the victim to make sure the poison enters the blood stream.
                        >
                        > I also believe that sea snakes do not have long fangs. Often those bitten by a sea snake do not receive any poison because the bite was not back far enough.
                        >
                        > Of course, the long fangs could be external like the saber-tooth had, but then it wouldn't be possible for a vampire to be incognito!
                        >

                        As much as I appreciate the physical extension of the fangs for fear factor, I think it's all the more fearful that you can't spot a vampire that way -- but maybe that their teeth sharpen with some of the physiological changes, and that their venom is in their saliva, period, so that it doesn't take as much effort -- aiding them to hide better than the Hollywood "two pencil-wide puncture wounds."
                      • David
                        ... The two puncture wounds are pretty much the heritage of DRACULA. I personally am a fan of the fangs in INTERVIEW WITH THE VAMPIRE, which were the bicuspids
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 3 7:52 AM
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                          --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "bo_arthur" <bo_arthur@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "caeruleancentaur" <caeruleancentaur@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "David" <zahir13@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Along with retractable fangs, vampires gain venom sacs.
                          > >
                          > > Why would the fangs need to be retractable? The only reason they are retractable in vipers is so that they can deliver a deep injection of venom.
                          > >
                          > > Gila monsters have the venom injected by short fangs. They chew on the victim to make sure the poison enters the blood stream.
                          > >
                          > > I also believe that sea snakes do not have long fangs. Often those bitten by a sea snake do not receive any poison because the bite was not back far enough.
                          > >
                          > > Of course, the long fangs could be external like the saber-tooth had, but then it wouldn't be possible for a vampire to be incognito!
                          > >
                          >
                          > As much as I appreciate the physical extension of the fangs for fear factor, I think it's all the more fearful that you can't spot a vampire that way -- but maybe that their teeth sharpen with some of the physiological changes, and that their venom is in their saliva, period, so that it doesn't take as much effort -- aiding them to hide better than the Hollywood "two pencil-wide puncture wounds."
                          >

                          The two puncture wounds are pretty much the heritage of DRACULA.

                          I personally am a fan of the fangs in INTERVIEW WITH THE VAMPIRE, which were the bicuspids and those directly behind, each just a tiny bit longer and sharper than "normal" teeth.

                          I should explain that all the tissues of my vampires are potentially metamorphic, tending most easily to alter either (1) to heal wounds and/or (2) in the direction of their final form. But the full range and control of this ability takes a long time to master. As in centuries. Old vampires have little trouble running on all fours if need be, or scaling the sides of buildings, or leaping really long distances. Another power a vampire might, eventually, develop is that of simply changing their appearance in general. But this does take effort, and if too distracted or relaxed they revert to their current "natural" form (by the time they can do this, the vampire looks noticeably non-human).

                          Zahir
                          (c) All Rights Reserved
                        • David
                          ... One thing I m really trying to work out for the Knights Vigilant is how they operate--or at least how the Hunters operate. Let us say there is some reason
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 14 8:57 PM
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                            --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "bo_arthur" <bo_arthur@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "David" <zahir13@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > <snips>
                            >
                            > It's all very interesting, Zahir. One wonders if the Knights Vigilant don't look into some of the freakish blood diseases when the crop up, posing as doctors to be sure that it's not someone turning vampiric.
                            >
                            > How do they hide among us? (The vamps)
                            >

                            One thing I'm really trying to work out for the Knights Vigilant is how they operate--or at least how the Hunters operate.

                            Let us say there is some reason to believe some vampires are in an area. How do they go about checking up on such a thing? What kind of precautions would they take? How might they try to confirm the presence of vampires and what would they use for protection?

                            Zahir
                          • mr.xeight
                            If this is a religious order, are there any non-Roman Christian branches, or groups that are like-minded?
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 14 9:14 PM
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                              If this is a religious order, are there any non-Roman Christian branches, or groups that are like-minded?
                            • David
                              ... As explained in the original posting, the Knights Vigilant were a chivalric order founded during the crusades. Currently it is seen as a fraternal order,
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 14 10:31 PM
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                                --- In conculture@yahoogroups.com, "mr.xeight" <mr.xeight@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > If this is a religious order, are there any non-Roman Christian branches, or groups that are like-minded?
                                >

                                As explained in the original posting, the Knights Vigilant were a chivalric order founded during the crusades. Currently it is seen as a fraternal order, not unlike the Knights of Malta or the Masons, dedicated to charitable works on behalf of veterans and their families (both military and police). Originally a Roman Catholic Order, currently membership is restricted to those who are simply Christian. So people within the Order are Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, etc.

                                Within the Order is a secret faction that hunts vampires, werewolves, demons, etc. The faction itself is centralized, as is the Order in general.

                                Zahir
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