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Re: [CometObs] File - cometobs_policies.txt

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  • Mike Begbie
    Dear Mr Crinklaw I am writing this to both the comets-ml and your group. I was one of the people who originally wrote to the moderator of comets-ml suggesting
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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      Dear Mr Crinklaw

      I am writing this to both the comets-ml and your group. I was one of the
      people who originally wrote to the moderator of comets-ml suggesting that
      the group be split into three different groups, one for discussion in
      general, one solely for observational submission, and one for images and
      drawings etc. Thus, I was one of the instigators of the group that you now
      preside over. Now, according to the extremely strict policies you have
      imposed, it is not even possible to tell other people where to LOOK for a
      comet in your group. Dr. Sherrod has stated that he does not have a problem
      with your policies...well, I do!

      I am sorry, and I realise that you, in your autocratic manner, will probably
      cut me off your list for posting this, but you really have "lost the plot"
      here, and I really don't care if you do!

      1. Mr Meyer has only in the past cut people off the ml list if they were
      "infiltrators"...i.e.. they were not interested really in the group, but
      were only trying to promote their own interests, such as "doomsday prophets"
      soothsayers, fanatical opportunists and the like. In the letter below you
      actually threaten Dr. Sherrod with expulsion for making a simple statement
      that has wounded your pride. Maybe everyone else is too scared to write to
      you like this, but living where I do I am not frightened of anybody or
      anything anymore, so I WILL have my say! Dr. Sherrod is probably the most
      prolific submitter of observations on the entire list! Not only have you
      threatened him with expulsion, you have actually done the deed! This has
      been confirmed in a private communication with Dr. Sherrod in my last
      download. This is appalling and totally unacceptable! What right do you
      have to do this? Are you a moderator or a dictator??? If the latter, come
      live in Africa...you'll do well! Also, you could have written to Dr Clay,
      and criticized him privately "off-forum". Because you chose to make it a
      public embarrassment for him, I am forced to stoop to your level and do the
      same in his support. You would also do well to adopt Mr. Meyer's signature
      at the bottom of all of his postings..."If they give you ruled paper, write
      the other way".

      2. Dr. Sherrod is quite correct...you have "sanitized" the CometObs group
      to such an extent that people with years of experience are now thinking
      twice about submitting obs. to the group. And, as for beginners, do you
      really think that people who are starting out in cometary work are going to
      be able to have confidence in submitting anything that is not just hard
      numbers? Is it not enough that people could say for example - "Dear Greg, I
      observed this comet tonight and am uncertain as to the magnitude because I
      wasn't sure of this comparison star or that...could you help?" I am aware
      that there has not been a lot of activity since Comet Tempel 1, but there
      are comets around for people like Clay, so why aren't the obs. being posted?
      The reason lies above!

      3. Your group is NOT the I.C.Q.! People join these Yahoo groups out of
      genuine interest in astronomy and comets. They want to learn more, and
      benefit from the more experienced observers in the group. Why can't
      somebody write back to a person, questioning or inquiring about their
      magnitude estimate etc.? These groups are for amateur astronomers who want
      to learn more. All of us who have been doing this for years post our obs.
      to the relevant professional bodies anyway...we only put our obs. on your
      yahoo group in order to help others in their endeavours and to SHARE with
      other people on an immediate basis. For my own part, I (together with Dr.
      Alan Hale) am trying to promote astronomy worldwide as an attempt to instil
      an awareness of people's role in the world to try to make it a better place.
      We may not succeed, but people like you are not helping at all in trying to
      make it a reality.

      4. Greg, you are as guilty as anybody else in this. There have been no
      less than three occasions that I can recall where you promote your own
      software on the CometObs page. In addition, every letter you send out,
      including todays, you advertise your software with links to your home-page
      in your signature. I am not criticizing your product, I am sure it is
      excellent, but it is not free-ware, so you should not have links to it in
      your postings.

      Cut me off if you wish, but if you do, and you do not re-instate Clay
      Sherrod, the whole astronomical community will know where you are coming
      from, buddy...and that is precisely nowhere! I will return to posting my
      observations on the ml list if you won't accept them.

      Best Regards and hope you see sense and Keep Looking Up, not Down!

      Mike Begbie

      M. J. R. Begbie
      Hilton Observatory
      Harare, Zimbabwe
      17° 46' 19" S
      31° 00' 06" E
      songbird@...
      Astronomy Educator
      I.C.Q. Obs. Code BEG01


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Greg Crinklaw" <crinklaws@...>
      To: <CometObs@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [CometObs] File - cometobs_policies.txt


      P. Clay Sherrod wrote:

      > Haven't seen too many comet observations posted here lately....seems like
      everytime one is
      > posted we get a warning.

      What do you want from me, Clay? You were there on comets-ml when the
      CometObs group was created as a place to post comet observations only.
      We have two other groups for comet discussion. Yet, you chose to start
      a discussion here in blatant disregard of the clearly stated rules, and
      for that you were reprimanded. Even you must realize that or you would
      not have made the outrageous claim that people get warnings here for
      posting observations! Of course nothing of the sort has ever happened.

      Your observations are welcome. If you post another non-observation here
      I will be forced to remove you from the group. That includes responding
      to this post. If you or anyone else has a problem with the policies of
      this group please bring it up in the appropriate forum (comets-ml).

      Greg
      CometObs founder


      --
      Greg Crinklaw
      Astronomical Software Developer
      Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

      SkyTools Software for the Observer:
      http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

      Skyhound Observing Pages:
      http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html




      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • P. Clay Sherrod
      Thanks very much Mike; I, like so many others who were routinely submitting observations have other routes. It is a shame that there cannot be some degree of
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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        Thanks very much Mike; I, like so many others who were routinely submitting observations
        have other routes. It is a shame that there cannot be some degree of tolerance toward
        folks who need a place to actually DISCUSS comet observations and needing help when doing
        so; the world does not start out perfect....it becomes that way by our intervention....and
        then quickly reverts back because more of our intervention.

        For whatever reason, Mr. Crinklaw simply cannot tolerate stepping outside of the narrow
        white lines.....that is why there are no observational posts on the comet Obs. site any
        longer. I was observing comets for Dr. Marsden before Mr. C. was even a twinkle in
        anyone's eye, so I feel that I must be doing something right....long before MPC codes
        existed. For my part, I am done with anything that he is part of. For the sake of
        beginners everywhere and those who need a helping hand, I appreciate your honesty and
        directness in this message.

        Clay
        --------------------
        Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
        Arkansas Sky Observatories
        Harvard MPC H41 (Petit Jean Mountain)
        Harvard MPC H45 (Petit Jean Mountain South)
        Harvard MPC H43 (Conway)
        Harvard MPC H44 (Cascade Mountain)
        http://www.arksky.org/

        NOTE that all ASO outgoing mail is protected by McAfee, Zone Alarm and tcworks.net
        security
        and is certified Virus and Spam-free

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mike Begbie" <songbird@...>
        To: <CometObs@yahoogroups.com>; "Greg Crinklaw" <crinklaws@...>;
        <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: "P. Clay Sherrod" <drclay@...>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:56 PM
        Subject: Re: [CometObs] File - cometobs_policies.txt


        > Dear Mr Crinklaw
        >
        > I am writing this to both the comets-ml and your group. I was one of the
        > people who originally wrote to the moderator of comets-ml suggesting that
        > the group be split into three different groups, one for discussion in
        > general, one solely for observational submission, and one for images and
        > drawings etc. Thus, I was one of the instigators of the group that you now
        > preside over. Now, according to the extremely strict policies you have
        > imposed, it is not even possible to tell other people where to LOOK for a
        > comet in your group. Dr. Sherrod has stated that he does not have a problem
        > with your policies...well, I do!
        >
        > I am sorry, and I realise that you, in your autocratic manner, will probably
        > cut me off your list for posting this, but you really have "lost the plot"
        > here, and I really don't care if you do!
        >
        > 1. Mr Meyer has only in the past cut people off the ml list if they were
        > "infiltrators"...i.e.. they were not interested really in the group, but
        > were only trying to promote their own interests, such as "doomsday prophets"
        > soothsayers, fanatical opportunists and the like. In the letter below you
        > actually threaten Dr. Sherrod with expulsion for making a simple statement
        > that has wounded your pride. Maybe everyone else is too scared to write to
        > you like this, but living where I do I am not frightened of anybody or
        > anything anymore, so I WILL have my say! Dr. Sherrod is probably the most
        > prolific submitter of observations on the entire list! Not only have you
        > threatened him with expulsion, you have actually done the deed! This has
        > been confirmed in a private communication with Dr. Sherrod in my last
        > download. This is appalling and totally unacceptable! What right do you
        > have to do this? Are you a moderator or a dictator??? If the latter, come
        > live in Africa...you'll do well! Also, you could have written to Dr Clay,
        > and criticized him privately "off-forum". Because you chose to make it a
        > public embarrassment for him, I am forced to stoop to your level and do the
        > same in his support. You would also do well to adopt Mr. Meyer's signature
        > at the bottom of all of his postings..."If they give you ruled paper, write
        > the other way".
        >
        > 2. Dr. Sherrod is quite correct...you have "sanitized" the CometObs group
        > to such an extent that people with years of experience are now thinking
        > twice about submitting obs. to the group. And, as for beginners, do you
        > really think that people who are starting out in cometary work are going to
        > be able to have confidence in submitting anything that is not just hard
        > numbers? Is it not enough that people could say for example - "Dear Greg, I
        > observed this comet tonight and am uncertain as to the magnitude because I
        > wasn't sure of this comparison star or that...could you help?" I am aware
        > that there has not been a lot of activity since Comet Tempel 1, but there
        > are comets around for people like Clay, so why aren't the obs. being posted?
        > The reason lies above!
        >
        > 3. Your group is NOT the I.C.Q.! People join these Yahoo groups out of
        > genuine interest in astronomy and comets. They want to learn more, and
        > benefit from the more experienced observers in the group. Why can't
        > somebody write back to a person, questioning or inquiring about their
        > magnitude estimate etc.? These groups are for amateur astronomers who want
        > to learn more. All of us who have been doing this for years post our obs.
        > to the relevant professional bodies anyway...we only put our obs. on your
        > yahoo group in order to help others in their endeavours and to SHARE with
        > other people on an immediate basis. For my own part, I (together with Dr.
        > Alan Hale) am trying to promote astronomy worldwide as an attempt to instil
        > an awareness of people's role in the world to try to make it a better place.
        > We may not succeed, but people like you are not helping at all in trying to
        > make it a reality.
        >
        > 4. Greg, you are as guilty as anybody else in this. There have been no
        > less than three occasions that I can recall where you promote your own
        > software on the CometObs page. In addition, every letter you send out,
        > including todays, you advertise your software with links to your home-page
        > in your signature. I am not criticizing your product, I am sure it is
        > excellent, but it is not free-ware, so you should not have links to it in
        > your postings.
        >
        > Cut me off if you wish, but if you do, and you do not re-instate Clay
        > Sherrod, the whole astronomical community will know where you are coming
        > from, buddy...and that is precisely nowhere! I will return to posting my
        > observations on the ml list if you won't accept them.
        >
        > Best Regards and hope you see sense and Keep Looking Up, not Down!
        >
        > Mike Begbie
        >
        > M. J. R. Begbie
        > Hilton Observatory
        > Harare, Zimbabwe
        > 17° 46' 19" S
        > 31° 00' 06" E
        > songbird@...
        > Astronomy Educator
        > I.C.Q. Obs. Code BEG01
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Greg Crinklaw" <crinklaws@...>
        > To: <CometObs@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:28 PM
        > Subject: Re: [CometObs] File - cometobs_policies.txt
        >
        >
        > P. Clay Sherrod wrote:
        >
        > > Haven't seen too many comet observations posted here lately....seems like
        > everytime one is
        > > posted we get a warning.
        >
        > What do you want from me, Clay? You were there on comets-ml when the
        > CometObs group was created as a place to post comet observations only.
        > We have two other groups for comet discussion. Yet, you chose to start
        > a discussion here in blatant disregard of the clearly stated rules, and
        > for that you were reprimanded. Even you must realize that or you would
        > not have made the outrageous claim that people get warnings here for
        > posting observations! Of course nothing of the sort has ever happened.
        >
        > Your observations are welcome. If you post another non-observation here
        > I will be forced to remove you from the group. That includes responding
        > to this post. If you or anyone else has a problem with the policies of
        > this group please bring it up in the appropriate forum (comets-ml).
        >
        > Greg
        > CometObs founder
        >
        >
        > --
        > Greg Crinklaw
        > Astronomical Software Developer
        > Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
        >
        > SkyTools Software for the Observer:
        > http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
        >
        > Skyhound Observing Pages:
        > http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Maik Meyer
        Dear list members! I am currently on business travel and have neither time nor bandwidth to deal with the presented discussion in an extended way. However, I
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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          Dear list members!

          I am currently on business travel and have neither time nor bandwidth to deal with
          the presented discussion in an extended way.

          However, I ask you to accept the following statements and wishes:

          1) While CometsObs is called the sister-list of comets-ml and was founded as a
          result of a discussion about observations postings in comets-ml I do NOT think that
          comets-ml is the appropriate list to discuss problems with the founder (or his
          policies) of CometsObs. I do not agree with Gregs statement that such should be
          discussed here. It is an internal problem of the CometsObs list and I do not want
          to see this fire spread on comets-ml. I recommend to discuss the raised problems
          privately.

          2) In principle a mailing list is a voluntary thing. And the founder is free to
          make up his rules. If you do not like his rules unsubscribe and even install your
          own mailing list. Please note: This is a neutral and objective statement and not
          aimed against Clay or or Mike!

          3) I do not want to re-introduce the posting of routine observations in comets-ml.
          Even at a time with no bright comets where one can expect only few observations (as
          it is the case in CometsObs) I still only allow observations posting only in
          certain cases (outburst, fading, first observations) although I have been not too
          strict on that if someone did violate against it. However, I think that all follow
          this recommendation nicely and it works well.

          4) Please stop this topic right now. I understand that you have posted this in
          comets-ml, especially after Gregs recommendation, but it is no solution to keep one
          list clean by relocating the discussion to a different list. Comets-ml is not the
          right place. Please try to solve this problem behind the curtains or in CometObs.

          While I am on travel Sebastian Hoenig will act on my behalf as co-moderator and
          will temporarily moderate those who are not follow the above points. Of course,
          discussions about alternatives for comet observation posting lists will not be
          affected. All of the above only aims at the original discussion which was relocated
          into comets-ml.

          Thank you very much for your co-operation.

          Maik
          --
          _______________________________________________________________________
          If they give you ruled paper, write the other way. * Juan Ramon Jimenez
          maik@... http://www.comethunter.de
          German Comet Section http://www.fg-kometen.de
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/comets-ml
        • Rodney Austin
          Hi All, Many years back, I recall getting a bit miffed about a comment by John Mood in Astronomy , where he referred to some comet-hunters having the
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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            Hi All,
            Many years back, I recall getting a bit miffed about a comment by John
            Mood in 'Astronomy', where he referred to some comet-hunters having
            the "powerful ego of a mono-maniac". He was referring at the time to
            my first comet, and I felt a bit sore for a while, but he had a point
            and I got over it. However, I see that mono-mania is still out there.
            Why some people feel it is necessary to regiment the rest of us I
            don't know. One of the things I like about comets-ml is that there is
            a degree of flexibility.
            Cheers
            Rod Austin

            On 11/2/05, P. Clay Sherrod <drclay@...> wrote:
            > Thanks very much Mike; I, like so many others who were routinely submitting
            > observations
            > have other routes. It is a shame that there cannot be some degree of
            > tolerance toward
            > folks who need a place to actually DISCUSS comet observations and needing
            > help when doing
            > so; the world does not start out perfect....it becomes that way by our
            > intervention....and
            > then quickly reverts back because more of our intervention.
            >
            > For whatever reason, Mr. Crinklaw simply cannot tolerate stepping outside of
            > the narrow
            > white lines.....that is why there are no observational posts on the comet
            > Obs. site any
            > longer. I was observing comets for Dr. Marsden before Mr. C. was even a
            > twinkle in
            > anyone's eye, so I feel that I must be doing something right....long before
            > MPC codes
            > existed. For my part, I am done with anything that he is part of. For the
            > sake of
            > beginners everywhere and those who need a helping hand, I appreciate your
            > honesty and
            > directness in this message.
            >
            > Clay
            > --------------------
            > Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
            > Arkansas Sky Observatories
            > Harvard MPC H41 (Petit Jean Mountain)
            > Harvard MPC H45 (Petit Jean Mountain South)
            > Harvard MPC H43 (Conway)
            > Harvard MPC H44 (Cascade Mountain)
            > http://www.arksky.org/
            >
            > NOTE that all ASO outgoing mail is protected by McAfee, Zone Alarm and
            > tcworks.net
            > security
            > and is certified Virus and Spam-free
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Mike Begbie" <songbird@...>
            > To: <CometObs@yahoogroups.com>; "Greg Crinklaw" <crinklaws@...>;
            > <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
            > Cc: "P. Clay Sherrod" <drclay@...>
            > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:56 PM
            > Subject: Re: [CometObs] File - cometobs_policies.txt
            >
            >
            > > Dear Mr Crinklaw
            > >
            > > I am writing this to both the comets-ml and your group. I was one of the
            > > people who originally wrote to the moderator of comets-ml suggesting that
            > > the group be split into three different groups, one for discussion in
            > > general, one solely for observational submission, and one for images and
            > > drawings etc. Thus, I was one of the instigators of the group that you
            > now
            > > preside over. Now, according to the extremely strict policies you have
            > > imposed, it is not even possible to tell other people where to LOOK for a
            > > comet in your group. Dr. Sherrod has stated that he does not have a
            > problem
            > > with your policies...well, I do!
            > >
            > > I am sorry, and I realise that you, in your autocratic manner, will
            > probably
            > > cut me off your list for posting this, but you really have "lost the plot"
            > > here, and I really don't care if you do!
            > >
            > > 1. Mr Meyer has only in the past cut people off the ml list if they were
            > > "infiltrators"...i.e.. they were not interested really in the group, but
            > > were only trying to promote their own interests, such as "doomsday
            > prophets"
            > > soothsayers, fanatical opportunists and the like. In the letter below you
            > > actually threaten Dr. Sherrod with expulsion for making a simple statement
            > > that has wounded your pride. Maybe everyone else is too scared to write
            > to
            > > you like this, but living where I do I am not frightened of anybody or
            > > anything anymore, so I WILL have my say! Dr. Sherrod is probably the most
            > > prolific submitter of observations on the entire list! Not only have you
            > > threatened him with expulsion, you have actually done the deed! This has
            > > been confirmed in a private communication with Dr. Sherrod in my last
            > > download. This is appalling and totally unacceptable! What right do you
            > > have to do this? Are you a moderator or a dictator??? If the latter,
            > come
            > > live in Africa...you'll do well! Also, you could have written to Dr Clay,
            > > and criticized him privately "off-forum". Because you chose to make it a
            > > public embarrassment for him, I am forced to stoop to your level and do
            > the
            > > same in his support. You would also do well to adopt Mr. Meyer's
            > signature
            > > at the bottom of all of his postings..."If they give you ruled paper,
            > write
            > > the other way".
            > >
            > > 2. Dr. Sherrod is quite correct...you have "sanitized" the CometObs
            > group
            > > to such an extent that people with years of experience are now thinking
            > > twice about submitting obs. to the group. And, as for beginners, do you
            > > really think that people who are starting out in cometary work are going
            > to
            > > be able to have confidence in submitting anything that is not just hard
            > > numbers? Is it not enough that people could say for example - "Dear Greg,
            > I
            > > observed this comet tonight and am uncertain as to the magnitude because I
            > > wasn't sure of this comparison star or that...could you help?" I am aware
            > > that there has not been a lot of activity since Comet Tempel 1, but there
            > > are comets around for people like Clay, so why aren't the obs. being
            > posted?
            > > The reason lies above!
            > >
            > > 3. Your group is NOT the I.C.Q.! People join these Yahoo groups out of
            > > genuine interest in astronomy and comets. They want to learn more, and
            > > benefit from the more experienced observers in the group. Why can't
            > > somebody write back to a person, questioning or inquiring about their
            > > magnitude estimate etc.? These groups are for amateur astronomers who
            > want
            > > to learn more. All of us who have been doing this for years post our obs.
            > > to the relevant professional bodies anyway...we only put our obs. on your
            > > yahoo group in order to help others in their endeavours and to SHARE with
            > > other people on an immediate basis. For my own part, I (together with
            > Dr.
            > > Alan Hale) am trying to promote astronomy worldwide as an attempt to
            > instil
            > > an awareness of people's role in the world to try to make it a better
            > place.
            > > We may not succeed, but people like you are not helping at all in trying
            > to
            > > make it a reality.
            > >
            > > 4. Greg, you are as guilty as anybody else in this. There have been
            > no
            > > less than three occasions that I can recall where you promote your own
            > > software on the CometObs page. In addition, every letter you send out,
            > > including todays, you advertise your software with links to your home-page
            > > in your signature. I am not criticizing your product, I am sure it is
            > > excellent, but it is not free-ware, so you should not have links to it in
            > > your postings.
            > >
            > > Cut me off if you wish, but if you do, and you do not re-instate Clay
            > > Sherrod, the whole astronomical community will know where you are coming
            > > from, buddy...and that is precisely nowhere! I will return to posting my
            > > observations on the ml list if you won't accept them.
            > >
            > > Best Regards and hope you see sense and Keep Looking Up, not Down!
            > >
            > > Mike Begbie
            > >
            > > M. J. R. Begbie
            > > Hilton Observatory
            > > Harare, Zimbabwe
            > > 17° 46' 19" S
            > > 31° 00' 06" E
            > > songbird@...
            > > Astronomy Educator
            > > I.C.Q. Obs. Code BEG01
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Greg Crinklaw" <crinklaws@...>
            > > To: <CometObs@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:28 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [CometObs] File - cometobs_policies.txt
            > >
            > >
            > > P. Clay Sherrod wrote:
            > >
            > > > Haven't seen too many comet observations posted here lately....seems
            > like
            > > everytime one is
            > > > posted we get a warning.
            > >
            > > What do you want from me, Clay? You were there on comets-ml when the
            > > CometObs group was created as a place to post comet observations only.
            > > We have two other groups for comet discussion. Yet, you chose to start
            > > a discussion here in blatant disregard of the clearly stated rules, and
            > > for that you were reprimanded. Even you must realize that or you would
            > > not have made the outrageous claim that people get warnings here for
            > > posting observations! Of course nothing of the sort has ever happened.
            > >
            > > Your observations are welcome. If you post another non-observation here
            > > I will be forced to remove you from the group. That includes responding
            > > to this post. If you or anyone else has a problem with the policies of
            > > this group please bring it up in the appropriate forum (comets-ml).
            > >
            > > Greg
            > > CometObs founder
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > Greg Crinklaw
            > > Astronomical Software Developer
            > > Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
            > >
            > > SkyTools Software for the Observer:
            > > http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
            > >
            > > Skyhound Observing Pages:
            > > http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
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          • Greg Crinklaw
            First, let me say that this is one of the most difficult emails--and one of the most difficult days--I ve had in a long time. I m so upset that it is hard to
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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              First, let me say that this is one of the most difficult emails--and one
              of the most difficult days--I've had in a long time. I'm so upset that
              it is hard to type, but I will try my best to respond civilly and
              appropriately. This will be my only post to comets-ml on the subject.

              I hope this message is allowed through. It would be extremely unfair to
              me if it were not. I will comply with the moderators wishes after I
              have had the chance to defend myself and to clear the air. To allow
              such misleading attacks to go unanswered would be an injustice.

              I must admit that I feel like I've been hung out to dry by Maik.
              Perhaps this isn't really about me, but the misdirected desire for more
              open discussion on *this* forum. How would we ever know? Maik stops
              any sort of dissent before it barely gets started. The irony is thick,
              isn't it?

              Mike Begbie wrote:
              > Dear Mr Crinklaw
              >
              > I am writing this to both the comets-ml and your group. I was one of the
              > people who originally wrote to the moderator of comets-ml suggesting that
              > the group be split into three different groups, one for discussion in
              > general, one solely for observational submission, and one for images and
              > drawings etc. Thus, I was one of the instigators of the group that you now
              > preside over. Now, according to the extremely strict policies you have
              > imposed, it is not even possible to tell other people where to LOOK for a
              > comet in your group.

              I have patiently explained why I feel it is important for CometObs to
              remain free of discussion. The utility of the comet observation group
              is greatly diminished by intervening discussions. Given the other
              discussion venues available I fail to see the logic that open discussion
              is necessary. That is what comets-ml and CometChasing are for. I did
              not create CometObs to be just another discussion group. We already
              have two of those. You are, of course, free to start your own group. I
              don't mean that as an insult; it is simply the truth. I cannot possibly
              be a "dictator" if you have other choices! It is my belief that a group
              dedicated to observations only is a good thing and the number of
              postings there over the years appears to bear that out.

              > Dr. Sherrod has stated that he does not have a problem
              > with your policies...well, I do!
              >
              > I am sorry, and I realise that you, in your autocratic manner, will probably
              > cut me off your list for posting this, but you really have "lost the plot"
              > here, and I really don't care if you do!

              You think *you* have lost your patience? If you and Clay wished to
              discuss the CometObs policies you should have brought the issue up
              respectfully either here, at CometChasing, or to me directly. The
              posting of messages to CometObs--in direct conflict with its only
              rule--is not a reasonable and respectful way to go about it.

              > 1. Dr. Sherrod is probably the most
              > prolific submitter of observations on the entire list! Not only have you
              > threatened him with expulsion, you have actually done the deed!

              Yes. He forced me to. I asked him to take this issue up here on
              comets-ml or on CometChasing, where discussion is appropriate. Had he
              done so politely and respectfully I am sure it would have been allowed.
              But he continued to post to CometObs in defiance of the rules. As the
              moderator I had no choice but to remove him. That is my job when
              someone refuses to abide by the only rule of the group--a simple,
              reasonable rule.

              I also told him that if and when he wishes to begin posting his
              observations and abide by the group rule, he was welcome back. So are you.

              > Also, you could have written to Dr Clay,
              > and criticized him privately "off-forum".

              I did sir. But I was not the one who posted inappropriately and
              publically to CometObs in the first place. I felt his public post
              needed a public response. I did not criticize him publicly, sir, other
              than to admonish him to follow the rules.

              > Because you chose to make it a
              > public embarrassment for him, I am forced to stoop to your level and do the
              > same in his support. You would also do well to adopt Mr. Meyer's signature
              > at the bottom of all of his postings..."If they give you ruled paper, write
              > the other way".

              I did no such thing, sir. Perhaps you didn't read what was posted.
              I am sorry your friend is so upset, but he brought all this upon
              himself by not being a grownup when I *nicely* and *privately* pointed
              out to him that discussion was not part of the CometObs charter.

              > 2. Dr. Sherrod is quite correct...you have "sanitized" the CometObs group
              > to such an extent that people with years of experience are now thinking
              > twice about submitting obs. to the group.

              I have kept the group to what it was created for: the posting of
              observations. Discussions here, observations there. I think that's very
              simple and very effective! I cannot even imagine what the fuss is all
              about, except for one person's wounded ego (and it's not me.)

              > And, as for beginners, do you
              > really think that people who are starting out in cometary work are going to
              > be able to have confidence in submitting anything that is not just hard
              > numbers? Is it not enough that people could say for example - "Dear Greg, I
              > observed this comet tonight and am uncertain as to the magnitude because I
              > wasn't sure of this comparison star or that...could you help?" I am aware
              > that there has not been a lot of activity since Comet Tempel 1, but there
              > are comets around for people like Clay, so why aren't the obs. being posted?
              > The reason lies above!

              This is exactly what my CometChasing group is for; to provide a less
              formal forum about comets than comets-ml--a place where beginners are
              welcome. To be perfectly honest, the discussions there can be much more
              open than those here. Maik cracks down every time anyone has any kind
              of disagreement, reasonable or otherwise, which is something I have
              found very frustrating. I recently broadened the focus of the
              CometChasing group. As long as you remain civil and keep your posts
              tangentially related to comets, anything goes. You are welcome to join.

              > 4. Greg, you are as guilty as anybody else in this. There have been no
              > less than three occasions that I can recall where you promote your own
              > software on the CometObs page.

              A lie, sir, as anyone can see looking at the CometObs archives, which
              are open to everyone, even non members. This is an unfair and
              inaccurate accusation and one that upsets me greatly.

              > In addition, every letter you send out,
              > including todays, you advertise your software with links to your home-page
              > in your signature. I am not criticizing your product, I am sure it is
              > excellent, but it is not free-ware, so you should not have links to it in
              > your postings.

              I am sorry, but I happen to disagree. Nobody has to
              follow the links in my signature. If I didn't have the links I suspect
              you'd complain that I mention my software at all in the sig. This is
              who I am. To hide that fact would be much worse than any "advertising."

              I can't believe some of you people! Here I am a software author who
              actually observes comets! Who actually writes articles in S&T about
              comets! Who actually sends in a magnitude estimate from time to time!
              And instead of being welcomed in the community I'm ostracized by a few
              loudmouths who think I should live in a commune and give my software
              away for free... or an egocentric who can't get over the fact that I
              asked him nicely and privately, months ago, to please keep his postings
              to observations only on CometObs.

              > Cut me off if you wish, but if you do, and you do not re-instate Clay
              > Sherrod, the whole astronomical community will know where you are coming
              > from, buddy...and that is precisely nowhere! I will return to posting my
              > observations on the ml list if you won't accept them.

              (1) I did not ban Clay, even though I should have. I simply removed him
              from the group as a warning for repeatedly not heeding the rules. Like
              I said, he is welcome back anytime he wants to post observations (and
              observations only) there. That is in no way unreasonable.

              (2) I ought to do the same for you as you have now broken the rules by
              cross-posting there. Instead, as of now I have moderated CometObs. Any
              further postings of non-observations will simply be deleted, unseen by
              the group.

              If anyone wishes to discuss the CometObs policies rationally and
              civilly, sans personal attacks, and either privately or on the
              CometChasing forum, I'm happy to do so. Until this, I have never had
              one complaint about CometObs. And until today I have only had to send
              one reminder (to Clay and one other person--months ago) that discussions
              are not appropriate there.

              One more thing: this idea that there are no observations being posted to
              CometObs is wrong. Yes, Clay was a prolific observation poster and his
              observations have been sorely missed. But other than that, there has
              been no real change in postings since the inception of the group. I
              very much hope that Clay will start posting his observations again. I
              hold no ill will toward him personally, but at the same time I believe
              it is not asking too much of him to follow the simple rules set forward
              for my group.

              Now, finally, I'd like to say that all this anger directed at me is most
              inappropriate and misinformed, and I'm so upset about all this I'm half
              ready to simply pull the plug on CometObs. But the other half of me
              reminds that the majority of people post willingly and happily and that
              there are untold numbers of people out there who rely on the group for
              timely observation data. So I'm going to try and remember that.

              Greg

              --
              Greg Crinklaw
              Astronomical Software Developer
              Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

              SkyTools Software for the Observer:
              http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

              Skyhound Observing Pages:
              http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
            • Greg Crinklaw
              It has been suggested that the number of comet observations being submitted has been dropping. I had a look into this, checking CometObs, the ICQ page, and
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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                It has been suggested that the number of comet observations being
                submitted has been dropping. I had a look into this, checking CometObs,
                the ICQ page, and the new COHP. It looks like the number of
                observations being submitted to all these sites dropped significantly in
                August and has not recovered. Maik suggests this is because all the
                current comets are faint, but I wonder about that. I mean, most CCD
                observations have been for the fainter comets and there have been plenty
                of comets brighter than 14th magnitude in the last few months...

                So comet observer's I ask you: what's up? (And don't tell me it's all
                my fault! ;-)

                Do the brighter comets inspire observations in general? Is everybody
                getting burned out? Was it the temporary loss of COHP? Has the weather
                been bad?

                Clear skies,
                Greg

                --
                Greg Crinklaw
                Astronomical Software Developer
                Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

                SkyTools Software for the Observer:
                http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

                Skyhound Observing Pages:
                http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
              • McCann, Stephen
                Greg, I must admit that I have not been submitting so many observations recently and I think this boils down to the following reasons: 1) Temporary loss of
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                  Greg,
                  I must admit that I have not been submitting so many observations
                  recently and I think this boils
                  down to the following reasons:

                  1) Temporary loss of COHP
                  2) Not knowing any other people/groups/website to whom I can send
                  observations (and I've only been
                  doing this for 15 years now). No-one seems to send regular
                  observations to this list anymore.
                  3) Feeling rather inadequate that I'm still a visual observer and do
                  not have any electronic vision equipment,

                  Fairly blunt, but that's how I feel.

                  Kind regards

                  Stephen

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:comets-ml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Crinklaw
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 2:26 AM
                  To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [comets-ml] The dearth of recent comet observations


                  It has been suggested that the number of comet observations
                  being
                  submitted has been dropping. I had a look into this, checking
                  CometObs,
                  the ICQ page, and the new COHP. It looks like the number of
                  observations being submitted to all these sites dropped
                  significantly in
                  August and has not recovered. Maik suggests this is because all
                  the
                  current comets are faint, but I wonder about that. I mean, most
                  CCD
                  observations have been for the fainter comets and there have
                  been plenty
                  of comets brighter than 14th magnitude in the last few months...

                  So comet observer's I ask you: what's up? (And don't tell me
                  it's all
                  my fault! ;-)

                  Do the brighter comets inspire observations in general? Is
                  everybody
                  getting burned out? Was it the temporary loss of COHP? Has the
                  weather
                  been bad?

                  Clear skies,
                  Greg

                  --
                  Greg Crinklaw
                  Astronomical Software Developer
                  Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

                  SkyTools Software for the Observer:
                  http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

                  Skyhound Observing Pages:
                  http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html


                  NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing
                  List should be indicated by:

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                • Piotr Guzik
                  Hi All, Last night I found 29P as fairly bright, small, condensed object (m1~12.5, Dia~0.4 , DC=7) while to nights ago it was huge and extremely diffuse, just
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                    Hi All,

                    Last night I found 29P as fairly bright, small, condensed object (m1~12.5, Dia~0.4', DC=7) while to nights ago it was huge and extremely diffuse, just at the limit of visibility (m1~13.0, Dia~2', DC=0) under excellent skies (NELM~7.2)...

                    Best Regards
                    Piotr Guzik

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Greg Crinklaw
                    Hi Stephen, ... That s interesting. Thanks for being candid. Maybe we can do something about this. The reason observations aren t sent to comets-ml is that
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                      Hi Stephen,

                      McCann, Stephen wrote:
                      > Greg,
                      > I must admit that I have not been submitting so many observations
                      > recently and I think this boils
                      > down to the following reasons:
                      >
                      > 1) Temporary loss of COHP
                      > 2) Not knowing any other people/groups/website to whom I can send
                      > observations (and I've only been
                      > doing this for 15 years now). No-one seems to send regular
                      > observations to this list anymore.
                      > 3) Feeling rather inadequate that I'm still a visual observer and do
                      > not have any electronic vision equipment,
                      >
                      > Fairly blunt, but that's how I feel.

                      That's interesting. Thanks for being candid. Maybe we can do something
                      about this. The reason observations aren't sent to comets-ml is that
                      Maik felt they were getting in the way of discussion. We all decided to
                      create a new group, CometObs, for the observations.

                      Thinking on it, there seems to be a lot of discontent in the online
                      comet community. I mean, just look at the recent episode about the
                      CometObs group, where a few people felt it should be opened to
                      discussion. I started my own group, CometChasing, a year or two ago.
                      My intent was to focus it solely on the promotion of visual observations
                      of telescopic comets--something I think we could get a lot more people
                      interested in. But right away there were people who wanted to take it
                      in another direction and there was clearly a great deal of frustration
                      when I reigned it in to keep it on the intended topic. And on this
                      group--to be equally blunt--there is an air of arrogance from the old
                      timers that really intimidates the newbies. What concerns me the most
                      is that I see little, if any, effort on the part of the old timers to
                      educate a new generation of observers. They seem to actually have
                      derision for those just starting out. Those people have no place to go
                      to get basic information about how comet observations are supposed to be
                      made, and if they ask (I know this from personal experience!) they are
                      either directed to the difficult to obtain ICQ handbook (which ought to
                      be online!) or treated like a lower form of life.

                      So what I'm pulling from all of this is that even though we have
                      comets-ml and CometObs there seems to remain a desire for something
                      more. People seem to want a place where they can post observations
                      *and* discuss them; a place where newbies are welcome.

                      Maybe my CometChasing group can be that place. I recently opened the
                      dissuasion there to anything regarding comets, and observations have
                      always been welcome. As it stands now there are so many newbies there
                      that nobody posts anything! So if you (or anyone else) is looking for a
                      different sort of forum I invite you to go there and make it into what
                      you want it to be.

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometChasing/

                      Clear skies,
                      Greg



                      --
                      Greg Crinklaw
                      Astronomical Software Developer
                      Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

                      SkyTools Software for the Observer:
                      http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

                      Skyhound Observing Pages:
                      http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
                    • P. Clay Sherrod
                      I believe that Maik has asked privately for this type of conversation to end. Maik? Clay ... Dr. P. Clay Sherrod Arkansas Sky Observatories Harvard MPC H41
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                        I believe that Maik has asked privately for this type of conversation to end.
                        Maik?

                        Clay
                        --------------------
                        Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
                        Arkansas Sky Observatories
                        Harvard MPC H41 (Petit Jean Mountain)
                        Harvard MPC H45 (Petit Jean Mountain South)
                        Harvard MPC H43 (Conway)
                        Harvard MPC H44 (Cascade Mountain)
                        http://www.arksky.org/

                        NOTE that all ASO outgoing mail is protected by McAfee, Zone Alarm and tcworks.net
                        security
                        and is certified Virus and Spam-free
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Greg Crinklaw" <crinklaws@...>
                        To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:29 AM
                        Subject: Re: [comets-ml] The dearth of recent comet observations


                        > Hi Stephen,
                        >
                        > McCann, Stephen wrote:
                        > > Greg,
                        > > I must admit that I have not been submitting so many observations
                        > > recently and I think this boils
                        > > down to the following reasons:
                        > >
                        > > 1) Temporary loss of COHP
                        > > 2) Not knowing any other people/groups/website to whom I can send
                        > > observations (and I've only been
                        > > doing this for 15 years now). No-one seems to send regular
                        > > observations to this list anymore.
                        > > 3) Feeling rather inadequate that I'm still a visual observer and do
                        > > not have any electronic vision equipment,
                        > >
                        > > Fairly blunt, but that's how I feel.
                        >
                        > That's interesting. Thanks for being candid. Maybe we can do something
                        > about this. The reason observations aren't sent to comets-ml is that
                        > Maik felt they were getting in the way of discussion. We all decided to
                        > create a new group, CometObs, for the observations.
                        >
                        > Thinking on it, there seems to be a lot of discontent in the online
                        > comet community. I mean, just look at the recent episode about the
                        > CometObs group, where a few people felt it should be opened to
                        > discussion. I started my own group, CometChasing, a year or two ago.
                        > My intent was to focus it solely on the promotion of visual observations
                        > of telescopic comets--something I think we could get a lot more people
                        > interested in. But right away there were people who wanted to take it
                        > in another direction and there was clearly a great deal of frustration
                        > when I reigned it in to keep it on the intended topic. And on this
                        > group--to be equally blunt--there is an air of arrogance from the old
                        > timers that really intimidates the newbies. What concerns me the most
                        > is that I see little, if any, effort on the part of the old timers to
                        > educate a new generation of observers. They seem to actually have
                        > derision for those just starting out. Those people have no place to go
                        > to get basic information about how comet observations are supposed to be
                        > made, and if they ask (I know this from personal experience!) they are
                        > either directed to the difficult to obtain ICQ handbook (which ought to
                        > be online!) or treated like a lower form of life.
                        >
                        > So what I'm pulling from all of this is that even though we have
                        > comets-ml and CometObs there seems to remain a desire for something
                        > more. People seem to want a place where they can post observations
                        > *and* discuss them; a place where newbies are welcome.
                        >
                        > Maybe my CometChasing group can be that place. I recently opened the
                        > dissuasion there to anything regarding comets, and observations have
                        > always been welcome. As it stands now there are so many newbies there
                        > that nobody posts anything! So if you (or anyone else) is looking for a
                        > different sort of forum I invite you to go there and make it into what
                        > you want it to be.
                        >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometChasing/
                        >
                        > Clear skies,
                        > Greg
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --
                        > Greg Crinklaw
                        > Astronomical Software Developer
                        > Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
                        >
                        > SkyTools Software for the Observer:
                        > http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
                        >
                        > Skyhound Observing Pages:
                        > http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should be indicated
                        by:
                        >
                        > Comets Mailing List [date]
                        > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Greg Crinklaw
                        ... What, we can t talk about comet observations now? That would be crazy. What he wants is for the personal attacks to stop and I couldn t agree with him
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                          P. Clay Sherrod wrote:

                          > I believe that Maik has asked privately for this type of conversation to end.
                          > Maik?

                          What, we can't talk about comet observations now? That would be crazy.

                          What he wants is for the personal attacks to stop and I couldn't agree
                          with him more.

                          --
                          Greg Crinklaw
                          Astronomical Software Developer
                          Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)

                          SkyTools Software for the Observer:
                          http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html

                          Skyhound Observing Pages:
                          http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
                        • Mike Begbie
                          Confirmed, Dr Sherrod It would seem that we are obeying Maik s decision, and have just let it go, but someone else won t let go of the bone! Actually, I would
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                            Confirmed, Dr Sherrod

                            It would seem that we are obeying Maik's decision, and have just let it go,
                            but someone else won't let go of the bone! Actually, I would like to
                            apologise publically to Mr Crinklaw on the CometsObs over ONE aspect of my
                            letter to him, but since he will not allow anything but pure observations on
                            his forum, and the members of Comet Obs are not necessarily the same as
                            Comets-ml, I can't even give him this satisfaction. So I will write to him,
                            off-forum, as per Maik's request and copy to you.

                            Regards

                            Mike
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "P. Clay Sherrod" <>drclay@...
                            To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 7:22 PM
                            Subject: Re: [comets-ml] The dearth of recent comet observations


                            I believe that Maik has asked privately for this type of conversation to
                            end.
                            Maik?

                            Clay
                            --------------------
                            Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
                            Arkansas Sky Observatories
                            Harvard MPC H41 (Petit Jean Mountain)
                            Harvard MPC H45 (Petit Jean Mountain South)
                            Harvard MPC H43 (Conway)
                            Harvard MPC H44 (Cascade Mountain)
                            http://www.arksky.org/

                            NOTE that all ASO outgoing mail is protected by McAfee, Zone Alarm and
                            tcworks.net
                            security
                            and is certified Virus and Spam-free
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Greg Crinklaw" <crinklaws@...>
                            To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 9:29 AM
                            Subject: Re: [comets-ml] The dearth of recent comet observations


                            > Hi Stephen,
                            >
                            > McCann, Stephen wrote:
                            > > Greg,
                            > > I must admit that I have not been submitting so many observations
                            > > recently and I think this boils
                            > > down to the following reasons:
                            > >
                            > > 1) Temporary loss of COHP
                            > > 2) Not knowing any other people/groups/website to whom I can send
                            > > observations (and I've only been
                            > > doing this for 15 years now). No-one seems to send regular
                            > > observations to this list anymore.
                            > > 3) Feeling rather inadequate that I'm still a visual observer and do
                            > > not have any electronic vision equipment,
                            > >
                            > > Fairly blunt, but that's how I feel.
                            >
                            > That's interesting. Thanks for being candid. Maybe we can do something
                            > about this. The reason observations aren't sent to comets-ml is that
                            > Maik felt they were getting in the way of discussion. We all decided to
                            > create a new group, CometObs, for the observations.
                            >
                            > Thinking on it, there seems to be a lot of discontent in the online
                            > comet community. I mean, just look at the recent episode about the
                            > CometObs group, where a few people felt it should be opened to
                            > discussion. I started my own group, CometChasing, a year or two ago.
                            > My intent was to focus it solely on the promotion of visual observations
                            > of telescopic comets--something I think we could get a lot more people
                            > interested in. But right away there were people who wanted to take it
                            > in another direction and there was clearly a great deal of frustration
                            > when I reigned it in to keep it on the intended topic. And on this
                            > group--to be equally blunt--there is an air of arrogance from the old
                            > timers that really intimidates the newbies. What concerns me the most
                            > is that I see little, if any, effort on the part of the old timers to
                            > educate a new generation of observers. They seem to actually have
                            > derision for those just starting out. Those people have no place to go
                            > to get basic information about how comet observations are supposed to be
                            > made, and if they ask (I know this from personal experience!) they are
                            > either directed to the difficult to obtain ICQ handbook (which ought to
                            > be online!) or treated like a lower form of life.
                            >
                            > So what I'm pulling from all of this is that even though we have
                            > comets-ml and CometObs there seems to remain a desire for something
                            > more. People seem to want a place where they can post observations
                            > *and* discuss them; a place where newbies are welcome.
                            >
                            > Maybe my CometChasing group can be that place. I recently opened the
                            > dissuasion there to anything regarding comets, and observations have
                            > always been welcome. As it stands now there are so many newbies there
                            > that nobody posts anything! So if you (or anyone else) is looking for a
                            > different sort of forum I invite you to go there and make it into what
                            > you want it to be.
                            >
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometChasing/
                            >
                            > Clear skies,
                            > Greg
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --
                            > Greg Crinklaw
                            > Astronomical Software Developer
                            > Cloudcroft, New Mexico, USA (33N, 106W, 2700m)
                            >
                            > SkyTools Software for the Observer:
                            > http://www.skyhound.com/cs.html
                            >
                            > Skyhound Observing Pages:
                            > http://www.skyhound.com/sh/skyhound.html
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should
                            be indicated
                            by:
                            >
                            > Comets Mailing List [date]
                            > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >




                            NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should be
                            indicated by:

                            Comets Mailing List [date]
                            http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Mike Begbie
                            Hi Stephen Don t feel inadequate that you don t have any electronic equipment and that you are still a visual observer. Nonsense, my friend...I am still | a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                              Hi Stephen

                              Don't feel inadequate that you don't have any electronic equipment and that
                              you are "still" a visual observer.

                              Nonsense, my friend...I am "still"| a visual observer, and will remain so
                              until
                              I go blind or die! Cometary astronomy and variable star work are still
                              mainstream and important. Variables may be eventually superseded by
                              electronic means, but there is no way that any professional group could ever
                              supersede the work done by visual comet observers...just ask somebody like
                              Giovanni Sostero. He does CDD work all the time, and concedes without
                              hesitation that the two types don't match up (especially for bright comets),
                              and unless the whole system is scrapped for visual stuff, the disparity will
                              continue. Just think how difficult it would be to try and correlate past
                              apparitions with a new "electronic" magnitude definition! Your big problem
                              in UK is the WEATHER...come out to us in Zim. and live DANGEROUSLY for a
                              couple of weeks under good skies :) Seriously, we could host you!

                              Please go out into the night, and REVEL in using your eyes and brain
                              only...there is no greater satisfaction!

                              Best

                              Mike
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "McCann, Stephen" <stephen.mccann@...>
                              To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:24 AM
                              Subject: RE: [comets-ml] The dearth of recent comet observations


                              Greg,
                              I must admit that I have not been submitting so many observations
                              recently and I think this boils
                              down to the following reasons:

                              1) Temporary loss of COHP
                              2) Not knowing any other people/groups/website to whom I can send
                              observations (and I've only been
                              doing this for 15 years now). No-one seems to send regular
                              observations to this list anymore.
                              3) Feeling rather inadequate that I'm still a visual observer and do
                              not have any electronic vision equipment,

                              Fairly blunt, but that's how I feel.

                              Kind regards

                              Stephen
                            • belatrix
                              ... hear, hear!! well said Greg, I find it absolutely ridiculous that this is the case! whats the big deal with this publication, is it marked official spy
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                                > they are
                                > either directed to the difficult to obtain ICQ handbook (which ought to
                                > be online!)

                                hear, hear!! well said Greg, I find it absolutely ridiculous that this
                                is the case! whats the big deal with this publication, is it marked
                                official spy business? CIA only? why isnt it more freely available -
                                the comet world can indeed have the feeling of a freemasons
                                society/closed shop to an outsider/beginner.
                                But I don't agree that the old timers are unfriendly and unhelpful - I
                                have felt strong solidarity and support at times from the comet
                                observers community towards a beginner.
                                One major factor in why there arent more visual obs reported may be
                                that, under the very strict guidelines (as I understand it) A visual
                                observation is deemed contaminated if it is made from light polluted
                                environs, and of no scientific/observational value. Of course, I
                                suspect, most members live in urban situations. I have said before, if
                                that if i lived under dark skies, I would be a prolific observer ;-)
                                Best Regards
                                Kearn Jones
                                PS is everything ok with that powerhouse of an observer Andrew Pearce
                                from Western Australia - I havent seen Andrew's obs anywhere for a
                                while?
                              • Vegas Luna
                                Hmm, seems I been here lurking for awhile to now. I hope you all figure this out and get fixed so we can get back to what is important the comets. We all are
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                                  Hmm, seems I been here lurking for awhile to now. I hope you all
                                  figure this out and get fixed so we can get back to what is important
                                  the comets. We all are supposed to be friends so it will all work out.
                                  I heard 29P might be in outburst again that is a good comet always
                                  there... ok friends talk to you again sometime hope some good comets ..



                                  Vegas Luna




                                  --- In comets-ml@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Begbie" <songbird@m...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Mr Crinklaw
                                  >
                                  > I am writing this to both the comets-ml and your group. I was one
                                  of the
                                  > people who originally wrote to the moderator of comets-ml suggesting
                                  that
                                  > the group be split into three different groups, one for discussion in
                                  > general, one solely for observational submission, and one for images and
                                  > drawings etc.
                                • gvnn64@libero.it
                                  ... Hello Mike and all, what I can say on my side, is that we really *need* the contribution of visual observers. Currently there is a huge difference between
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                    > just ask somebody like
                                    > Giovanni Sostero. He does CDD work all the time, and concedes without
                                    > hesitation that the two types don't match up (especially for bright comets),
                                    > and unless the whole system is scrapped for visual stuff, the disparity will
                                    > continue.

                                    Hello Mike and all,
                                    what I can say on my side, is that we really *need* the contribution of visual observers. Currently there is a huge difference between visual and CCD comets photometry, and we haven't found yet a way to match them. So, expecially for the purpose of exploting the huge archive of historical observations, it's very important to have comparisons between old and new methods of cometary brightness measurements. So, who has good eyes and skills to made visual brightenss estimations of those faint fuzzies is invited to keep his effort observing them.

                                    It's clear that the temporaly miss of Morris's COHP could be a problem for some observers, however there are other important comet resouces out there (e.g. don't forget the foundamental ICQ webpage). Moreover, in my opinion, observing comets should be a "self motivated" way: personally I like to look and image them just because I enjoy those faint fuzzies... Sometimes I forget about CCD photometry and scientific byproducts: I simply take my binoculars, and I get to a dark mountaintop to see those faint fuzzies. Who cares about science: a nice comet observed under a dark sky is part of my life.

                                    About 29P: some R-band CCD photometry obtained last night by Roberto Trabatti (CARA) doesn't support the idea of an outburst. Is anyone able to confirm or discard it?
                                    Cheers,
                                    Giovanni
                                  • Jose Carvajal
                                    Hi All. Well, a couple of reasons for me: 1) A few bright comets visible right now. We had good ones months ago 9P, C/2004 Q2, C/2005 K2,... which made a lot
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                      Hi All.

                                      Well, a couple of reasons for me:

                                      1) A few bright comets visible right now. We had good ones months ago 9P, C/2004 Q2, C/2005 K2,... which made a lot of 'noise'
                                      2) Weather. Fall is here (clouds comming in from the Atlantic) and winter knocking at the door. Particularly we had many consecutive months with no rain!!

                                      Anyhow, awaiting for a whole in the clouds...

                                      Regards.

                                      Jose.

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: gvnn64@...
                                      To: comets-ml
                                      Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 4:18 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [comets-ml] The dearth of recent comet observations


                                      It's clear that the temporaly miss of Morris's COHP could be a problem for some observers, however there are other important comet resouces out there (e.g. don't forget the foundamental ICQ webpage). Moreover, in my opinion, observing comets should be a "self motivated" way: personally I like to look and image them just because I enjoy those faint fuzzies... Sometimes I forget about CCD photometry and scientific byproducts: I simply take my binoculars, and I get to a dark mountaintop to see those faint fuzzies. Who cares about science: a nice comet observed under a dark sky is part of my life.


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • gvnn64
                                      ... (m1~12.5, Dia~0.4 , DC=7) while to nights ago it was huge and extremely diffuse, just at the limit of visibility (m1~13.0, Dia~2 , DC=0) under excellent
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Nov 6, 2005
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                                        > Last night I found 29P as fairly bright, small, condensed object
                                        (m1~12.5, Dia~0.4', DC=7) while to nights ago it was huge and
                                        extremely diffuse, just at the limit of visibility (m1~13.0, Dia~2',
                                        DC=0) under excellent skies (NELM~7.2)...

                                        and:

                                        > About 29P: some R-band CCD photometry obtained last night by Roberto
                                        Trabatti (CARA) doesn't support the idea of an outburst. Is anyone
                                        able to confirm or discard it?

                                        Hi,
                                        about this topic: some unfiltered CCD shots obtained by T. Scarmato
                                        (CARA) on 2005 Nov. 04.78, show the typical stellar central
                                        condensation of this comet while it is developing an outburst. This
                                        seems to support the early report of Piotr Guzik. It's possible that
                                        we will have an interesting target to follow-up for the next few days.
                                        Cheers,
                                        Giovanni
                                      • Brian Cudnik
                                        I looked for this object last night with a 14-inch Cassegraine from reasonably dark site (L.M. = 6.0) but was unable to find it...perhaps the increasing
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Nov 6, 2005
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                                          I looked for this object last night with a 14-inch
                                          Cassegraine from reasonably dark site (L.M. = 6.0) but
                                          was unable to find it...perhaps the increasing
                                          humidity and impending fog (it was still clear at the
                                          time) kept it hidden from view.

                                          Brian Cudnik

                                          --- gvnn64 <gvnn64@...> wrote:

                                          > > Last night I found 29P as fairly bright, small,
                                          > condensed object
                                          > (m1~12.5, Dia~0.4', DC=7) while to nights ago it was
                                          > huge and
                                          > extremely diffuse, just at the limit of visibility
                                          > (m1~13.0, Dia~2',
                                          > DC=0) under excellent skies (NELM~7.2)...
                                          >
                                          > and:
                                          >
                                          > > About 29P: some R-band CCD photometry obtained
                                          > last night by Roberto
                                          > Trabatti (CARA) doesn't support the idea of an
                                          > outburst. Is anyone
                                          > able to confirm or discard it?
                                          >
                                          > Hi,
                                          > about this topic: some unfiltered CCD shots obtained
                                          > by T. Scarmato
                                          > (CARA) on 2005 Nov. 04.78, show the typical stellar
                                          > central
                                          > condensation of this comet while it is developing an
                                          > outburst. This
                                          > seems to support the early report of Piotr Guzik.
                                          > It's possible that
                                          > we will have an interesting target to follow-up for
                                          > the next few days.
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Giovanni
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • gvnn64
                                          ... Hello Brian and all, yesterday night a couple of CARA observers -M. Nicolini (Cavezzo Observatory) and Lorenzo Focardi- collected some data about this
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Nov 8, 2005
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                                            > I looked for this object last night with a 14-inch
                                            > Cassegraine from reasonably dark site (L.M. = 6.0) but
                                            > was unable to find it...perhaps the increasing
                                            > humidity and impending fog (it was still clear at the
                                            > time) kept it hidden from view.

                                            Hello Brian and all,
                                            yesterday night a couple of CARA observers -M. Nicolini (Cavezzo
                                            Observatory) and Lorenzo Focardi- collected some data about this
                                            comet: according to their finds, it is confirmed that 29P/Schwassmann-
                                            Wachmann is currently experiencing a nice active phase. Comparing
                                            their shots with those obtained by T. Scarmato few nights ago, it
                                            appears that there is an evolution from the "stellar false nucleus"
                                            phase, to an "expanding central condensation" state, that's typical
                                            of an outburst episode. There is also a noticeable faint halo
                                            surrounding the brighter central part of the coma.

                                            The CCD photometry (Cousins R band) provide an integrated magnitude
                                            ~14 within an aperture of ~0.5'. This brightness measure could sound
                                            as a faint value, however we should remember that the visual
                                            estimations normally run some 0.5 to 2 magnitudes (depending on the
                                            comet) on the brighter side compared to simultaneous CCD data
                                            (moreover this CCD photometry has been collected only on a fraction
                                            of the total amount of the coma extension visible on the original
                                            frames, since this is the area where the stationary coma model, that
                                            assumes a uniform and constant dust expansion within the coma, seems
                                            to work safely for the Afrho parametrization). Anyway, the Afrho
                                            parameter (a proxy of the dust abundance within the coma) provide a
                                            value close to 5700cm +/- 1000cm. It is interesting to notice that
                                            this amount is almost constant with apertures ranging from 100,000 km
                                            to 60,000 Km (at the comet distance), i.e. in that area the coma
                                            seems actually to obey the stationary coma model. When this comet is
                                            in a "quiet" state, normally its Afrho turns out to be more or less
                                            1/3 of this amount, while for a big "outburst" episode, it could
                                            reach three fold values (or more).

                                            All together, this observations seems to confirm that this comet is
                                            currently experiencing one of its (frequent) active phases, but not
                                            yet a memorable one. I uploaded an image in the "Photos" folder of
                                            [Comets-ml] Yahoo webpage.


                                            Cheers,
                                            Giovanni Sostero (Remanzacco Obs, CARA)
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