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RE: [comets-ml] Historic daylight comet?

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  • H.Tan
    Hi, Leung It is difficult to judge whether they are the same comet or in stead of. But I think this is a good study topic. Hongkong is near Canton quitely, I
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 17, 2013
      Hi, Leung


      It is difficult to judge whether they are the same comet or in stead of. But I think this is a good study topic.


      Hongkong is near Canton quitely, I really hope that I could meet you in HK someday. :-)



      很高兴认识你

      Best wish

      H.Tan
      --------------------------------
      Mandarin name: Hanjie Tan
      Cantonese name: Honkit Tan
      The day of landing on Earth: 04/14/1996
      I am here: 113.3° 23.1°
      Canton, Guangdong Prov, China
      --------------------------------



      To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com
      CC: h.tan1996@...
      From: cheung.szeleung@...
      Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 12:49:11 +0800
      Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Historic daylight comet?


























      Hi Tan,



      Great, we are reading the same materials.



      I think Song Shu · record astronomy (宋書 天文志)is not complete.



      I found another record of the AD302 comet in 開元占經 which quote 《晉陽秋》



      按孫盛《晉陽秋》曰:「惠帝大安元年夏四月彗星晝見,不行其占也。」 



      But this text makes me feel puzzle, it said they did not make

      astrological predication based on the comet, which is very abnormal, or

      maybe I misunderstand the original meaning.



      I am using the book "中國古代天象記錄總集" (Complete collection of

      ancient Chinese celestial events) published in 1988, it did have 2

      separate entries for the comet in AD302 and AD303. But we cannot tell

      anything whether they are the same comet or not.



      Cheers,

      Sze-leung



      On 18/7/2013 12:26, H.Tan wrote:

      >

      > Hi, Leung

      > I checked the Jin Shu · record Emperor Hui of Jin (晉書 惠帝紀). It

      > claimed that there once was a comet appeared in the daytime, which is

      > 夏四月,彗星晝見。

      > In the same thinking, I checked the Song Shu · record astronomy (宋書

      > 天文志). To my surprised, didn't record the comet in 302AD when it is

      > at brightest magnitude, however, quite oppositely, the record was

      > found in observed data as according to the book, 晉惠帝太安二年二月,

      > 太白入昴。占曰:「天下擾,兵大起。」三月,彗星見東方,指三台。占曰:

      > 「兵喪之象。三台為三公。」

      > According to the Jin Shu · record astronomy (晉書 天文志)which you

      > presented, they may be the same comet. However, according to Chinese

      > ancient astronomical collection, which was published in 1970s, it

      > seemed that they are not the same one.

      >

      > In addition, Emperor Hui of Jin is foolish and superstitious, during

      > the 16 years he governed, the title of an emperor's reign had changed

      > 11 times due to series Disaster warnings from astrology, and the

      > astronomy was only serves to faciliated practise divination. In their

      > view, the stars appeared as special phenomenon or located in a

      > particular position is somehow associated with events that happened on

      > earth. Perhaps for these reason, ancient astronomers didn't record

      > more details from 302 to 303AD.

      > CheersH.Tan

      > --------------------------------

      > Mandarin name: Hanjie Tan

      > Cantonese name: Honkit Tan

      > The day of landing on Earth: 04/14/1996

      > I am here: 113.3° 23.1°

      > Canton, Guangdong Prov, China

      > --------------------------------

      >

      >

      >

      > To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      > CC: h.tan1996@... <mailto:h.tan1996%40hotmail.com>

      > From: cheung.szeleung@... <mailto:cheung.szeleung%40hku.hk>

      > Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2013 07:31:23 +0800

      > Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Historic daylight comet?

      >

      >

      > Hi Tan,

      >

      >

      >

      > Yes indeed you are right, it is questionable whether 302 and 303 are the

      >

      > same comet.

      >

      >

      >

      > However, I think there is a high possibility they are the same one.

      >

      >

      >

      > If you read the original Jin Shu, the record was actually came in the

      >

      > session of astrological texts. And these astrological texts all followed

      >

      > the same kind of pattern -

      >

      >

      >

      > When certain [Celestial Observation] was happened, the astrologer would

      >

      > make a [Prediction]. Then certain [Event] was really happened that

      >

      > matched the prediction.

      >

      >

      >

      > You can see every pieces of astronomical record were come in this way.

      >

      >

      >

      > Usually, every comet observation will produce one astrological

      >

      > prediction on their own, however, for the 302 and 303 comet. They come

      >

      > in the same paragraph.

      >

      >

      >

      > Original paragraph is

      >

      > 太安元年四月,彗星晝見。二年三月,彗星見東方,指三台。占曰:「兵喪之象。

      >

      > 三台為三公。」三年正月,東海王越執太尉、長沙王乂,張方又殺 之。

      >

      >

      >

      > The prediction part was only appear after 2 events, which is abnormal,

      >

      > and I suspect it is because they knew they are the same comet and

      >

      > therefore group them together.

      >

      >

      >

      > If you read further the other paragraphs, you can easily distinguish

      >

      > this one with others in 300AD, 301, 305 and 307.

      >

      >

      >

      > But you are right, I am also wondering, if AD302 comet was really so

      >

      > bright, why they don't come with more details. And there's one year in

      >

      > between the 302AD and 303AD comet, which is too long.

      >

      >

      >

      > Cheers,

      >

      > Sze-leung

      >

      >

      >

      > On 17/7/2013 20:20, H.Tan wrote:

      >

      > >

      >

      > > 你好,Hi Sze-leung I agree with your opinion about daytime. But

      >

      > > whether, i wonder, they are the same comet? Because if they are, why

      >

      > > there was no record about this comet from 302 to 303. There were also

      >

      > > some comets recorded in Jin Shu in 300AD, 301,305,307.

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > 誠摯的祝福RegardH.Tan

      >

      > >

      >

      > > --------------------------------

      >

      > > Mandarin name: Hanjie Tan

      >

      > > Cantonese name: Honkit Tan

      >

      > > The day of landing on Earth: 04/14/1996

      >

      > > I am here: 113.3° 23.1°

      >

      > > Canton, Guangdong Prov, China--------------------------------

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      > <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      >

      > > CC: seargent@... <mailto:seargent%40ozemail.com.au>

      > <mailto:seargent%40ozemail.com.au>

      >

      > > From: cheung.szeleung@... <mailto:cheung.szeleung%40hku.hk>

      > <mailto:cheung.szeleung%40hku.hk>

      >

      > > Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 14:22:44 +0800

      >

      > > Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Historic daylight comet?

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > Hi all,

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > I am new here and I am a Chinese. I have checked with the original

      >

      > >

      >

      > > Chinese text in Jin Shu. The word should mean "daylight".

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > And since the comet is put in the same paragraph with the one in AD303,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > so they are the same comet.

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > Hope this helps.

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > Cheers,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > Sze-leung

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > On 17/7/2013 11:47, David Seargent wrote:

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Hi Gary,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > I didn't find a direction as such, but the catalogue given in

      >

      > > Chamber's book (can't recall the title unfortunately) published in the

      >

      > > 1890s said that the comet was visible "in the morning". Apparently the

      >

      > > word normally translated as "daylight" became "morning", but the rest

      >

      > > of the record is unchanged.

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Regards,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > David

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      > <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > From: kronk@... <mailto:kronk%40cometography.com>

      > <mailto:kronk%40cometography.com>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 05:26:56 -0700

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Subject: RE: [comets-ml] Historic daylight comet?

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > I am curious about this, David. The Chinese text Jin Shu (or Chin

      > Shu,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > in the Wade-Giles romanization), which was written around AD 635,

      > only

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > provides the statement that "a broom star appeared in daylight" in

      > the

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > "1st year of the Tai'an reign period of Emperor Hui of Jin" (AD 302)

      >

      > > and

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > in the "4th month" (May 14-June 11). The Korean text Samguk Sagi

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > (published around 1145) gives an identical description of the

      > comet and

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > indicates the same year and lunar month, which is not surprising

      > since

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > many scholars believe it copied heavily from the Jin Shu and other

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Chinese texts. I have taken these accounts from the translations

      > of Ho

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Peng Yoke in 1962 and 1966, as well as David W. Pankenier, Xu

      > Zhentao,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > and Jiang Yaotiao in 2008. What source did you find that gives a

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > direction?

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > During my research for Cometography, I found a few sources over the

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > years that seem to have combined the accounts of the comet

      > reported in

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > AD 302 with another seen in AD 303. The comet in 303 was seen in the

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > east, but was not listed as a daylight comet. The Jin Shu lists

      >

      > > these as

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > two distinct comets and I see no evidence to suggest these accounts

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > should be combined.

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Sincerely,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > > Gary

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> -------- Original Message --------

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Subject: RE: [comets-ml] Historic daylight comet?

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> From: H.Tan <h.tan1996@...

      > <mailto:h.tan1996%40hotmail.com> <mailto:h.tan1996%40hotmail.com>>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Date: Tue, July 16, 2013 12:10 am

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> To: "comets-ml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      >

      > > <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>" <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com

      > <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      >

      > > <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Hi,Mr.David

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> In Chinese, the daytime including morning ,noon and afternoon.

      >

      > > After all, it is

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> the time which the sun above the horizon. I have checked the

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Chinese historical materials and found two contents about this

      >

      > > comet. From

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> the Jin Dynasty recording, The comet was seen in the

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> daytime in some days from 05/14 to 06/11.

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Btw,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> China have observed the sky a long history, it is not unusual that

      >

      > > comet

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> seen in the daytime. Indeed, according to a few recordations, some

      >

      > > comets'

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> tail whipped the moon, some comets lanced to the sun and also some

      >

      > > comets made

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> a sound when them near the Earth.

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Regard

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> H.Tan

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> --------------------------------

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Mandarin name: Hanjie Tan

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Cantonese name: Honkit Tan

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> The day of landing on Earth: 04/14/1996

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> I am here: 113.3° 23.1°

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Canton, Guangdong Prov, China--------------------------------

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com

      > <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> From: seargent@... <mailto:seargent%40ozemail.com.au>

      > <mailto:seargent%40ozemail.com.au>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2013 14:08:23 +1030

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Subject: [comets-ml] Historic daylight comet?

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

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      >

      > > >> Hi all,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> This is a special request for those familiar with the Chinese

      >

      > > language. According to ancient Chinese records, the year 302 AD saw a

      >

      > > comet in May or June that (according to one translation) appeared "in

      >

      > > the morning" and to another translation as "in the daytime". On the

      >

      > > grounds of the latter, it is sometimes suggested as a possible

      >

      > > sungrazer, but if it was seen "in the morning" (before sunrise) it

      >

      > > could not have been. The time of year would be inconsistent with

      >

      > > morning visibility. Can somebody explain whether the usual Chinese

      >

      > > word translated "daytime" can also carry the meaning "morning".

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> Thanks.

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >>

      >

      > >

      >

      > > >> David Seargent

      >

      > >

      >



      --

      Sze-leung Cheung

      Outreach Officer and Science Instructor

      Faculty of Science, The University of Hong Kong

      Pokfulam Road, HONG KONG | www.scifac.hku.hk



      Office: 207 Chong Yuet Ming Physics Building

      Tel: (+852) 22194948 | Mob: (+852) 92324174

      Fax: (+852) 28584620 | cheung.szeleung@...



      ***Explore HKU Science Outreach programs***

      www.scifac.hku.hk/community/enrichment/

      ------------------------------------------



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