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Re: [comets-ml] Image of comet 29P from Cassini near Saturn?

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  • Luke Dones
    Hi - sorry I haven t responded. Benjamin s messages were great. I should have mentioned that I was about to go to China and Taiwan for 10 days, so my Internet
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 24, 2013
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      Hi - sorry I haven't responded. Benjamin's messages were great. I
      should have mentioned that I was about to go to China and Taiwan for
      10 days, so my Internet access has been limited. I won't be back in
      the US until late July 3, but I will try to get to this before then.

      Best wishes,
      Luke

      On 6/25/13, P. Clay Sherrod <drclay@...> wrote:
      > Well, above all else, your argument to Luke Dones is a good one and well
      > presented; I
      > missed the challenge he presented and believe that perhaps you are due at
      > least a
      > response back from him.
      > Kudos for some fine documentation.
      >
      > Clay
      > _____
      > Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
      > Arkansas Sky Observatories
      > MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South
      > MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain
      > MPC H43 - Conway West
      > http://www.arksky.org/
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Benjamin Brink" <tekbasse@...>
      > To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 10:35 AM
      > Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Image of comet 29P from Cassini near Saturn?
      >
      >
      >> Clay,
      >>
      >> > Exactly what kind of response are you looking for here?
      >>
      >> On 19 June 2013, Luke of the Cassini Imaging Team[2] wrote:
      >>
      >>> Hi Ben - I'm willing to try if you can provide a scientific
      >>> justification.
      >>> Pretty picture/unique phase angle might suffice, but the stronger case
      >>> we
      >>> can make, the better.
      >>>
      >>> Thanks,
      >>> Luke
      >>
      >> Dr. Luke Dones of the Cassini Imaging Team appears open minded, well
      >> qualified, and represents at least one of perhaps multiple experts on
      >> this list that is adequately connected to the Cassini mission to take a
      >> leading role in getting 29P imaged by Cassini.
      >>
      >> As a novice in this area, I see the value of having 29P imaged by
      >> Cassini to help reduce error of interpreting 2D imagery of 29P.
      >>
      >> I suggested imaging comets from existing spaceprobes not in
      >> geosynchronous orbit to Alan Hale when he was asking for ideas on what
      >> to do after his Countdown to 500 Comets program ended.
      >>
      >> On Earth, when studying a particular object or class of objects, it's
      >> generally useful to get multiple perspectives if possible, if only to
      >> corroborate observations or data.
      >>
      >> Solar studies accelerated in scientific understanding when multiple
      >> perspectives of the Sun became available through SOHO etc.
      >>
      >> > In essence you have been presenting a review of published scientific
      >> material.
      >>
      >> That conclusion suggests I'm not experienced at adequately forming
      >> "scientific justification". I agree.
      >>
      >> My educational background is in business, where I understand practices
      >> of hoarding intellectual property that are commonly practiced at high
      >> technology educational and governmental institutions. However, I write
      >> open-source software and design open-source hardware, where sharing
      >> resources and open collaboration is believed to result in more benefits
      >> to everyone than closed alternatives.
      >>
      >> I am doing my best in the context of Luke's request to provide
      >> scientific justification by referencing scientific material to show how
      >> multiple perspectives may help accelerate studies of activity of 29P.
      >>
      >> I am not trying to characterize others' work, but build on works.
      >>
      >> By showing alternate, novice explanations of spacial geometry and
      >> phenomenon that may be playing a role in 29P's activity; and by showing
      >> that Cassini's imaging of 29P represents an opportunity for further
      >> scientific understanding.
      >>
      >> best regards,
      >>
      >> Ben
      >>
      >> 2. http://www.ciclops.org/team/iss_team.php
      >>
      >> On 06/24/2013 04:33 AM, P. Clay Sherrod wrote:
      >>> Exactly what kind of response are you looking for here?
      >>> In essence you have been presenting a review of published scientific
      >>> material.
      >>>
      >>> Clay
      >>> _____
      >>> Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
      >>> Arkansas Sky Observatories
      >>> MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South
      >>> MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain
      >>> MPC H43 - Conway West
      >>> http://www.arksky.org/
      >>>
      >>> ----- Original Message -----
      >>> From: "Benjamin Brink" <tekbasse@...>
      >>> To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
      >>> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 4:14 AM
      >>> Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Image of comet 29P from Cassini near Saturn?
      >>>
      >>>
      >>>> Luke, I'm guessing my "science" excuse hasn't been worthy of a
      >>>> response,
      >>>> yet.
      >>>>
      >>>> Here's more detail.
      >>>>
      >>>>> 2. multiple interpretations of outburst, coma dynamics
      >>>>
      >>>> For example:
      >>>>
      >>>> An alternate interpretation to the below referenced report[1] that
      >>>> concludes surface features have an integral role in 29P's periodic
      >>>> outbursts, is an Occam's Razor explanation that the comet is exposed to
      >>>> periodic increased insolation caused by the Heliospheric current sheet.
      >>>> This apparently was not considered in the report, although may have
      >>>> been mentioned in the earlier one by the same authors.
      >>>>
      >>>> The frequency of the varying solar wind might be as consistent as
      >>>> associating the outbursts with apparent rotation of the nucleus. Also,
      >>>> the properties of the heliospheric magnetosphere in concert with the
      >>>> heliospheric current sheet will naturally cause slightly ionized
      >>>> particles to cork-screw in an organized pattern that can resemble
      >>>> surface eruptions (Lenz's law). Variations in outbursts could be
      >>>> checked against regional solar wind density variations from CMEs with
      >>>> data from SOHO etc.
      >>>>
      >>>> A photograph from Cassini could help clarify the nature of the
      >>>> outbursts.
      >>>>
      >>>> Cassini has other observations with this region of space which make
      >>>> taking an image of 29P a valuable scientific endeavor.
      >>>>
      >>>> The Cassini project, in concert with NASA IBEX, has been mapping
      >>>> Electrically Neutral Atoms (ENAs). Some ENAs originate from outside the
      >>>> heliosphere.
      >>>>
      >>>> Some Earth-based studies are exploring associations between weather and
      >>>> cosmic rays caused from ENAs and other sources. Science papers over the
      >>>> decades have been published that discuss possible associations between
      >>>> planetary weather and cosmic dust.
      >>>>
      >>>> Cassini has been fortunate to monitor one of Saturn's largest storms
      >>>> that started in December 2010.
      >>>>
      >>>> Some of 29P's largest outbursts have been around the same time as
      >>>> Saturn's super storm(s). Might there be a common cause since 29P and
      >>>> Saturn are in somewhat close proximity over these years?
      >>>>
      >>>> Cassini has been involved in the discovery and observation of the
      >>>> phenomenon called "IBEX ribbon". Science reports discussing models of
      >>>> the IBEX ribbon have had to be radically revised with each new year's
      >>>> worth of observations. At least three semi-annual partial intervals
      >>>> worth of IBEX observations have not been published in rendered form.
      >>>> Might another round of model revisions be in on the way?
      >>>>
      >>>> IBEX scientists have recently concluded that the solar system doesn't
      >>>> have a bow shock.
      >>>>
      >>>> Is it possible that the IBEX ribbon represents a plane of higher
      >>>> density
      >>>> ISM intersecting and piercing the heliosphere? If so, it might explain
      >>>> how the ribbon has evolved from a band, to a knot and most recently to
      >>>> a
      >>>> diffuse scattering of ENA observations by IBEX. Can you make the same
      >>>> interpretation from this progression of IBEX observations?
      >>>>
      >>>> http://ibex.swri.edu/img/IBEX_Hi_yearly_maps_large.png
      >>>> from page: http://ibex.swri.edu/archive/2012.10.15.shtml
      >>>>
      >>>> There are plenty of scientific reasons for Cassini to take images of
      >>>> 29P.
      >>>>
      >>>> There are plenty of reasonable hypotheses still needing to be vetted
      >>>> scientifically.
      >>>>
      >>>> The Cassini project can make valuable contributions by imaging 29P that
      >>>> strengthen it's legacy and help provide additional material for
      >>>> increasing scientific understanding of dynamics in the outer solar
      >>>> system.
      >>>>
      >>>> 1. OUTBURST ACTIVITY IN COMETS: II. A MULTI-BAND PHOTOMETRIC MONITORING
      >>>> OF COMET 29P/SCHWASSMANN-WACHMANN by Josep M. Trigo-Rodríguez; D. A.
      >>>> García-Hernández; Albert Sánchez; Juan Lacruz; Björn J.R. Davidsson;
      >>>> Diego Rodríguez; Sensi Pastor; and José A. de los Reyes;
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>>>
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      >>>>
      >>>
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    • Benjamin Brink
      Luke (Dones), In case some aspect of adding another object in the image helps decide in favor of imaging 29P.. Segue an image of ISON s tail into the Cassini
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 4, 2013
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        Luke (Dones),

        In case some aspect of adding another object in the image helps decide
        in favor of imaging 29P..

        Segue an image of ISON's tail into the Cassini Saturn legacy of images.

        If ISON has a sizable tail towards the end of November, maybe Cassini
        could get comets 29P and ISON in the same frame while blocking the Sun
        via onboard visor or perhaps a solar eclipse with one of Saturn's
        moons.. Eclipsing a moon of Saturn could provide additional relevant
        observations..

        cheers,

        Ben
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