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Water production rate C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS

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  • cometas71
    Hi all , My personal analysis of the water production rate of comet C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS , here more info : http://astrocometas.blogspot.com regards ,
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 20 3:54 PM
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      Hi all ,

      My personal analysis of the water production rate of comet C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS , here more info :


      http://astrocometas.blogspot.com


      regards , j.p.navarro pina .
    • biver_nicolas
      Comet Pan-STARRS has been an extremely dusty comet (a moist dust ball... !), so that, based on our preliminary measurements of outgassing rates (of
      Message 2 of 6 , Apr 23 1:55 AM
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        Comet Pan-STARRS has been an extremely dusty comet (a moist dust ball... !), so that, based on our preliminary measurements of outgassing rates (of H2O/OH/HCN,...) it is about 2.3 magnitude brighter than the Jorda et al. (2008) correlation law would suggest, or said in a different way, we would rather have
        log(QH2O) ~ 30.10+0.245*(m1-5*log(D))
        (instead of 30.68+0.245*(m1-5*log(D)))
        and at perihelion QH2O peaked around 18 tons/s (log(QH2O)~ 29.8)
        We would have liked it to exceed QH2O = 2.10**30 molec./s but that was not the case, unfortunately.

        Nicolas
      • P. Clay Sherrod
        I think that we are sending the wrong message to even imply that a comet is a moist dust ball. The production/output of water is due to rapid evaporation of
        Message 3 of 6 , Apr 23 5:08 AM
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          I think that we are sending the wrong message to even imply that a comet is a "moist
          dust ball." The production/output of water is due to rapid evaporation of water ice
          that is locked in a solid body that begins evaporative and sumblimative process as
          the solar processes begin to have an effect, as we all know who have studied comets.
          This is not a "mush-ball" that is simply dropping water as it orbits the sun. There
          are many folks out there who may not fully understand the physical nature of the
          comet's core and the concept of a wet ball of dirt or dust is not at all helping them
          understand. All the formulae are quite impressive, but our verbal descriptions
          should match the concept as well as the numbers.

          Clay
          _____
          Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
          Arkansas Sky Observatories
          MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South
          MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain
          MPC H43 - Conway West
          http://www.arksky.org/

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "biver_nicolas" <Nicolas.Biver@...>
          To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 3:55 AM
          Subject: [comets-ml] Re: Water production rate C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS


          > Comet Pan-STARRS has been an extremely dusty comet (a moist dust ball... !), so
          > that, based on our preliminary measurements of outgassing rates (of H2O/OH/HCN,...)
          > it is about 2.3 magnitude brighter than the Jorda et al. (2008) correlation law
          > would suggest, or said in a different way, we would rather have
          > log(QH2O) ~ 30.10+0.245*(m1-5*log(D))
          > (instead of 30.68+0.245*(m1-5*log(D)))
          > and at perihelion QH2O peaked around 18 tons/s (log(QH2O)~ 29.8)
          > We would have liked it to exceed QH2O = 2.10**30 molec./s but that was not the
          > case, unfortunately.
          >
          > Nicolas
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > *** Comets Mailing List Important Contributions : ***
          > *** http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/comets-ml/files/Important%20Contributions/
          > ***
          >
          > Comet Observations List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometObs/
          > Comet Images List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Comet-Images/
          >
          > NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should be
          > indicated by:
          >
          > Comets Mailing List [date]
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • biver_nicolas
          The moist dust ball term was a bit ironic... or caricatural! I did not mean it scientifically. But C/2011 L4 is certainly one the dustiest comet (from its
          Message 4 of 6 , Apr 23 10:58 AM
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            The "moist dust ball" term was a bit ironic... or caricatural!
            I did not mean it scientifically. But C/2011 L4 is certainly one the dustiest comet (from its coma/tail point of view as we don't know what its nucleus is really composed of) ever seen.
            Especially if you compare it to C/2012 F6 (Lemmon) which outgassing rate is close to one order of magnitude higher at the same heliocentric distance while the visible coma is not brighter!

            This also probbaly explains the broad dust tail of C/2011 L4 which hides a weak (if any, the comet being likely not very CO rich) ion tail, in contrary to C/2012 F6 with lon ion tail!

            Nicolas

            --- In comets-ml@yahoogroups.com, "P. Clay Sherrod" <drclay@...> wrote:
            >
            > I think that we are sending the wrong message to even imply that a comet is a "moist
            > dust ball." The production/output of water is due to rapid evaporation of water ice
            > that is locked in a solid body that begins evaporative and sumblimative process as
            > the solar processes begin to have an effect, as we all know who have studied comets.
            > This is not a "mush-ball" that is simply dropping water as it orbits the sun. There
            > are many folks out there who may not fully understand the physical nature of the
            > comet's core and the concept of a wet ball of dirt or dust is not at all helping them
            > understand. All the formulae are quite impressive, but our verbal descriptions
            > should match the concept as well as the numbers.
            >
            > Clay
            > _____
            > Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
            > Arkansas Sky Observatories
            > MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South
            > MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain
            > MPC H43 - Conway West
            > http://www.arksky.org/
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "biver_nicolas" <Nicolas.Biver@...>
            > To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 3:55 AM
            > Subject: [comets-ml] Re: Water production rate C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS
            >
            >
            > > Comet Pan-STARRS has been an extremely dusty comet (a moist dust ball... !), so
            > > that, based on our preliminary measurements of outgassing rates (of H2O/OH/HCN,...)
            > > it is about 2.3 magnitude brighter than the Jorda et al. (2008) correlation law
            > > would suggest, or said in a different way, we would rather have
            > > log(QH2O) ~ 30.10+0.245*(m1-5*log(D))
            > > (instead of 30.68+0.245*(m1-5*log(D)))
            > > and at perihelion QH2O peaked around 18 tons/s (log(QH2O)~ 29.8)
            > > We would have liked it to exceed QH2O = 2.10**30 molec./s but that was not the
            > > case, unfortunately.
            > >
            > > Nicolas
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > *** Comets Mailing List Important Contributions : ***
            > > *** http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/comets-ml/files/Important%20Contributions/
            > > ***
            > >
            > > Comet Observations List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometObs/
            > > Comet Images List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Comet-Images/
            > >
            > > NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should be
            > > indicated by:
            > >
            > > Comets Mailing List [date]
            > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Michal Drahus
            Clay, No matter how you think of the nucleus -- the real problem is that we are sending the wrong message that one can measure the production rates of
            Message 5 of 6 , Apr 23 7:23 PM
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              Clay,

              No matter how you think of the nucleus -- the real problem is that we are
              sending the wrong message that one can measure the production rates of
              particular molecules with... the naked eye or an (unfiltered) amateur
              telescope. Nicolas is doing a great job in fighting this nonsense.

              Regards,
              Michal


              > I think that we are sending the wrong message to even imply that a comet
              > is a "moist
              > dust ball." The production/output of water is due to rapid evaporation of
              > water ice
              > that is locked in a solid body that begins evaporative and sumblimative
              > process as
              > the solar processes begin to have an effect, as we all know who have
              > studied comets.
              > This is not a "mush-ball" that is simply dropping water as it orbits the
              > sun. There
              > are many folks out there who may not fully understand the physical nature
              > of the
              > comet's core and the concept of a wet ball of dirt or dust is not at all
              > helping them
              > understand. All the formulae are quite impressive, but our verbal
              > descriptions
              > should match the concept as well as the numbers.
              >
              > Clay
              > _____
              > Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
              > Arkansas Sky Observatories
              > MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South
              > MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain
              > MPC H43 - Conway West
              > http://www.arksky.org/
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "biver_nicolas" <Nicolas.Biver@...>
              > To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 3:55 AM
              > Subject: [comets-ml] Re: Water production rate C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS
              >
              >
              >> Comet Pan-STARRS has been an extremely dusty comet (a moist dust ball...
              >> !), so
              >> that, based on our preliminary measurements of outgassing rates (of
              >> H2O/OH/HCN,...)
              >> it is about 2.3 magnitude brighter than the Jorda et al. (2008)
              >> correlation law
              >> would suggest, or said in a different way, we would rather have
              >> log(QH2O) ~ 30.10+0.245*(m1-5*log(D))
              >> (instead of 30.68+0.245*(m1-5*log(D)))
              >> and at perihelion QH2O peaked around 18 tons/s (log(QH2O)~ 29.8)
              >> We would have liked it to exceed QH2O = 2.10**30 molec./s but that was
              >> not the
              >> case, unfortunately.
              >>
              >> Nicolas
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------
              >>
              >> *** Comets Mailing List Important Contributions : ***
              >> ***
              >> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/comets-ml/files/Important%20Contributions/
              >> ***
              >>
              >> Comet Observations List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometObs/
              >> Comet Images List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Comet-Images/
              >>
              >> NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should
              >> be
              >> indicated by:
              >>
              >> Comets Mailing List [date]
              >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            • P. Clay Sherrod
              Totally agree on that point. Clay _____ Dr. P. Clay Sherrod Arkansas Sky Observatories MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain MPC
              Message 6 of 6 , Apr 24 12:52 AM
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                Totally agree on that point.

                Clay
                _____
                Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
                Arkansas Sky Observatories
                MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South
                MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain
                MPC H43 - Conway West
                http://www.arksky.org/

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Michal Drahus" <mdrahus@...>
                To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 9:23 PM
                Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Re: Water production rate C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS


                > Clay,
                >
                > No matter how you think of the nucleus -- the real problem is that we are
                > sending the wrong message that one can measure the production rates of
                > particular molecules with... the naked eye or an (unfiltered) amateur
                > telescope. Nicolas is doing a great job in fighting this nonsense.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Michal
                >
                >
                >> I think that we are sending the wrong message to even imply that a comet
                >> is a "moist
                >> dust ball." The production/output of water is due to rapid evaporation of
                >> water ice
                >> that is locked in a solid body that begins evaporative and sumblimative
                >> process as
                >> the solar processes begin to have an effect, as we all know who have
                >> studied comets.
                >> This is not a "mush-ball" that is simply dropping water as it orbits the
                >> sun. There
                >> are many folks out there who may not fully understand the physical nature
                >> of the
                >> comet's core and the concept of a wet ball of dirt or dust is not at all
                >> helping them
                >> understand. All the formulae are quite impressive, but our verbal
                >> descriptions
                >> should match the concept as well as the numbers.
                >>
                >> Clay
                >> _____
                >> Dr. P. Clay Sherrod
                >> Arkansas Sky Observatories
                >> MPC H45 - Petit Jean Mountain South
                >> MPC H41 - Petit Jean Mountain
                >> MPC H43 - Conway West
                >> http://www.arksky.org/
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: "biver_nicolas" <Nicolas.Biver@...>
                >> To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 3:55 AM
                >> Subject: [comets-ml] Re: Water production rate C/2011 L4 PANSTARRS
                >>
                >>
                >>> Comet Pan-STARRS has been an extremely dusty comet (a moist dust ball...
                >>> !), so
                >>> that, based on our preliminary measurements of outgassing rates (of
                >>> H2O/OH/HCN,...)
                >>> it is about 2.3 magnitude brighter than the Jorda et al. (2008)
                >>> correlation law
                >>> would suggest, or said in a different way, we would rather have
                >>> log(QH2O) ~ 30.10+0.245*(m1-5*log(D))
                >>> (instead of 30.68+0.245*(m1-5*log(D)))
                >>> and at perihelion QH2O peaked around 18 tons/s (log(QH2O)~ 29.8)
                >>> We would have liked it to exceed QH2O = 2.10**30 molec./s but that was
                >>> not the
                >>> case, unfortunately.
                >>>
                >>> Nicolas
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> ------------------------------------
                >>>
                >>> *** Comets Mailing List Important Contributions : ***
                >>> ***
                >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/comets-ml/files/Important%20Contributions/
                >>> ***
                >>>
                >>> Comet Observations List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometObs/
                >>> Comet Images List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Comet-Images/
                >>>
                >>> NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should
                >>> be
                >>> indicated by:
                >>>
                >>> Comets Mailing List [date]
                >>> http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
                >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > *** Comets Mailing List Important Contributions : ***
                > *** http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/comets-ml/files/Important%20Contributions/
                > ***
                >
                > Comet Observations List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CometObs/
                > Comet Images List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Comet-Images/
                >
                > NOTICE: Material quoted or re-posted from the Comets Mailing List should be
                > indicated by:
                >
                > Comets Mailing List [date]
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/comets-ml
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
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