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RE: [comets-ml] Comet Prints

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  • Mr Wyatt
    Hi John, Thankyou for your reply. Did you ever sketch the comets you mentioned? I have sketched a few, I am no artist by any means but looking back on some of
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 30, 2010
      Hi John,

      Thankyou for your reply.



      Did you ever sketch the comets you mentioned?

      I have sketched a few, I am no artist by any means but looking back on some
      of mine they really do illuminate things that photographs can't.

      It's a very valuable resource that is sometimes overlooked by modern
      enthusiasts, as in it is not as common these days.

      I know Martin McKenna from Ireland has a very good catalogue of his sketches
      on his website; attention to detail is superb, even in the posters from
      ISCRA.

      In reading many books on Comets I love seeing those old drawings and some
      would even look great on the wall at home or the office.

      I like the ISCRA posters and have it in mind to purchase them!



      Great stuff!

      Cheers,
      Chris W



      _____

      From: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:comets-ml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of jbortle@...
      Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 2010 2:49 PM
      To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Comet Prints





      While perhaps just a bit stylized, I would say that Weiss' drawings likely
      do represent what he actually saw. I say this with some confidence since I
      observed very similar, if not exactly the same sorts of features,
      displayed by comets Bennett, West, Swift-Tuttle and one or two others over
      the
      years, around the times of their maximum brightness/perihelion passages.

      J.Bortle

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • RICHARD MILES
      Hi Chris, The drawing by Edmund Weiss of Donati s Comet (1858) appeared in his Bilder-Atlas der Sternenwelt. Eine Astronomie fur jedermann published in
      Message 2 of 8 , Dec 1, 2010
        Hi Chris,

        The drawing by Edmund Weiss of Donati's Comet (1858) appeared in his
        "Bilder-Atlas der Sternenwelt. Eine Astronomie fur jedermann" published in
        1887/88. It was used by Springer as the basis for the cover illustration of
        Martin Mobberley's book, "Hunting and Imaging Comets" which by the way was
        published last month - a very excellent and readable book, I might add.

        Note that there were several drawings and paintings made of Comet Donati the
        same evening as Weiss's, it being 1858 October 5. It was notable in that
        the comet's nucleus passed within about 0.3 degrees of the bright star,
        Arcturus, just a few days after perihelion and at its most spectacular.

        There is a watercolour painting of the comet by William Turner in the Paul
        Mellon art collection (it has been shown at the Royal Academy in London in
        1973 and again in 2007/8, when I viewed it) depicting the same view of the
        comet as seen from near Oxford at 19:00UT on October 5, a little earlier
        than the view by Weiss. The remarkable thing about this painting is that at
        the very time depicted, Arcturus was located 20 arcminutes behind the
        nucleus embedded centrally in the head of the come*t. Commentaries on the
        painting made in 1973 refer to "some dear little stylised stars in the
        blueing sky", and in 2007, "'Donati's Comet' is a surreal night-time view
        almost reminiscent of Magritte" and most particularly "Dozens of artists
        painted it while the comet became the first to have its photograph taken,
        which is why we know that Turner must have painted out the comet's secondary
        plasma tail as well as the bright star Arcturus which would have appeared
        near its head when the comet was at its brightest. Why Turner elected to
        airbrush astronomical truth is not known. Artistic licence is a funny
        thing."

        In actual fact, although William Turner was fairly elderly (about 69) when
        he painted Donati's comet, his rendition is very much true to life in that
        the "stylised stars" are indeed the ones visible at the time in the
        constellations of Corona Borealis, Bootes and Ursa Major. Furthermore if
        you look closely at the painting you can clearly see the star Arcturus
        within the bright head of the comet exactly where it should have been - so
        Turner did not airbrush out astronomical truth as the arts critics attested,
        they merely failed to look closely at the painting. Reproductions of the
        original painting fail to replicate Arcturus as a distinct feature owing to
        a loss of contrast in the copies. Also, Turner's view was of the comet in a
        bluish sky and so the fainter plasma tail might have been lost from view
        especially since the gas tail would have itself been bluish in colour.

        Returning to Weiss's drawing, if you look at the ephemeris for Donati's
        Comet (C/1858 L1) it depicts the comet as it would have been seen from North
        America and not Europe at the time, given the relative position of the comet
        and Arcturus. Weiss was aged 21 at the time and was working as an assistant
        at the old Vienna Observatory. So he could not have seen the comet as
        depicted with his own eyes. Instead, I suggest that because he visited some
        North American observatories in 1872, he based his illustration on an
        astronomical drawing made in the U.S. and then added a foreground of his own
        choosing. He seems to have used this approach for other illustrations in
        his Bilderatlas der Sternenwelt, which was published several times during
        the late 19th Century and which probably proved a useful source of income
        for him.

        Richard Miles
        BAA


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Mr Wyatt" <carlec@...>
        To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:28 AM
        Subject: [comets-ml] Comet Prints


        > Hi all,
        >
        > I got bored the other day after all the rain we are having and found some
        > nice antique style posters of comet Donati (1858) and Great Comet of 1861
        > (Tebbutt) on this website (see down the bottom of the page):
        >
        > http://www.iscra.nl/celestial_maps_and_prints.htm
        >
        >
        >
        > E. Weiss made the drawings, I was wondering if anyone had heard or seen
        > these drawings. The heads of the comets are quite intricate, do you think
        > these drawings bona-fide?
        >
        > The posters would be a good addition to my astro collection.
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers!
        >
        > Chris Wyatt
        >
        > Walcha, NSW
        >
        > Australia
      • jbortle@aol.com
        ... some ... Chris - Indeed I did and copies of some of those drawings have appeared in various past issues of the ICQ and Sky & Telescope magazine. In
        Message 3 of 8 , Dec 1, 2010
          >Hi John,
          >
          >Thankyou for your reply.
          >
          >Did you ever sketch the comets you mentioned?
          >
          >I have sketched a few, I am no artist by any means but looking back on
          some
          >of mine they really do illuminate things that photographs can't.

          Chris -

          Indeed I did and copies of some of those drawings have appeared in various
          past issues of the ICQ and Sky & Telescope magazine. In addition, some
          years ago the ICQ ran an article I prepared on different methods of how to go
          about depicting these sorts of delicate, or subtle, features occasionally
          seen in the heads of very bright comets. That article, too, included some of
          my drawings.

          J.Bortle





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Mr Wyatt
          Hi Richard, Many thanks for your reply, I have Martins book marked down for future Christmas/birthday presents and I made sure my gf knows about it! Lol I
          Message 4 of 8 , Dec 1, 2010
            Hi Richard,

            Many thanks for your reply,

            I have Martins book marked down for future Christmas/birthday presents and I
            made sure my gf knows about it! Lol



            I checked out William Turners painting on the web, it is a really nice
            painting!

            It is able to be purchased as a print as well, which is good.

            I enjoyed reading the breakdown of the painting, which is important in my
            mind as taking this information into the field you can really grasp the size
            of the comet.

            I remember explaining to some American gents with a laser pointer, who came
            out observing at Coonabarabran in 2009 ( http://www.3rf.com.au/AA_DSTSS.pdf
            ), the size of C/2007 P1 McNaught how it was to the naked eye and it still
            blows my mind today!



            From what you describe with Weiss' drawings do you think that some of the
            details in the comets head could have been imagined as well?

            Interesting stuff!



            Cheers,
            Chris W



            _____

            From: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com [mailto:comets-ml@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of RICHARD MILES
            Sent: Wednesday, 1 December 2010 10:42 PM
            To: comets-ml@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [comets-ml] Comet Prints





            Hi Chris,

            The drawing by Edmund Weiss of Donati's Comet (1858) appeared in his
            "Bilder-Atlas der Sternenwelt. Eine Astronomie fur jedermann" published in
            1887/88. It was used by Springer as the basis for the cover illustration of
            Martin Mobberley's book, "Hunting and Imaging Comets" which by the way was
            published last month - a very excellent and readable book, I might add.

            Note that there were several drawings and paintings made of Comet Donati the

            same evening as Weiss's, it being 1858 October 5. It was notable in that
            the comet's nucleus passed within about 0.3 degrees of the bright star,
            Arcturus, just a few days after perihelion and at its most spectacular.

            There is a watercolour painting of the comet by William Turner in the Paul
            Mellon art collection (it has been shown at the Royal Academy in London in
            1973 and again in 2007/8, when I viewed it) depicting the same view of the
            comet as seen from near Oxford at 19:00UT on October 5, a little earlier
            than the view by Weiss. The remarkable thing about this painting is that at
            the very time depicted, Arcturus was located 20 arcminutes behind the
            nucleus embedded centrally in the head of the come*t. Commentaries on the
            painting made in 1973 refer to "some dear little stylised stars in the
            blueing sky", and in 2007, "'Donati's Comet' is a surreal night-time view
            almost reminiscent of Magritte" and most particularly "Dozens of artists
            painted it while the comet became the first to have its photograph taken,
            which is why we know that Turner must have painted out the comet's secondary

            plasma tail as well as the bright star Arcturus which would have appeared
            near its head when the comet was at its brightest. Why Turner elected to
            airbrush astronomical truth is not known. Artistic licence is a funny
            thing."

            In actual fact, although William Turner was fairly elderly (about 69) when
            he painted Donati's comet, his rendition is very much true to life in that
            the "stylised stars" are indeed the ones visible at the time in the
            constellations of Corona Borealis, Bootes and Ursa Major. Furthermore if
            you look closely at the painting you can clearly see the star Arcturus
            within the bright head of the comet exactly where it should have been - so
            Turner did not airbrush out astronomical truth as the arts critics attested,

            they merely failed to look closely at the painting. Reproductions of the
            original painting fail to replicate Arcturus as a distinct feature owing to
            a loss of contrast in the copies. Also, Turner's view was of the comet in a
            bluish sky and so the fainter plasma tail might have been lost from view
            especially since the gas tail would have itself been bluish in colour.

            Returning to Weiss's drawing, if you look at the ephemeris for Donati's
            Comet (C/1858 L1) it depicts the comet as it would have been seen from North

            America and not Europe at the time, given the relative position of the comet

            and Arcturus. Weiss was aged 21 at the time and was working as an assistant
            at the old Vienna Observatory. So he could not have seen the comet as
            depicted with his own eyes. Instead, I suggest that because he visited some
            North American observatories in 1872, he based his illustration on an
            astronomical drawing made in the U.S. and then added a foreground of his own

            choosing. He seems to have used this approach for other illustrations in
            his Bilderatlas der Sternenwelt, which was published several times during
            the late 19th Century and which probably proved a useful source of income
            for him.

            Richard Miles
            BAA

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mr Wyatt" <carlec@... <mailto:carlec%40northnet.com.au> >
            To: <comets-ml@yahoogroups.com <mailto:comets-ml%40yahoogroups.com> >
            Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:28 AM
            Subject: [comets-ml] Comet Prints

            > Hi all,
            >
            > I got bored the other day after all the rain we are having and found some
            > nice antique style posters of comet Donati (1858) and Great Comet of 1861
            > (Tebbutt) on this website (see down the bottom of the page):
            >
            > http://www.iscra.nl/celestial_maps_and_prints.htm
            >
            >
            >
            > E. Weiss made the drawings, I was wondering if anyone had heard or seen
            > these drawings. The heads of the comets are quite intricate, do you think
            > these drawings bona-fide?
            >
            > The posters would be a good addition to my astro collection.
            >
            >
            >
            > Cheers!
            >
            > Chris Wyatt
            >
            > Walcha, NSW
            >
            > Australia





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • john@menkescientific.com
            re comet prints, I unfortunately had only film (not CCD) when Hale-Bopp visited. But I was particularly interested in the structure of the gases around the
            Message 5 of 8 , Dec 1, 2010
              re comet prints, I unfortunately had only film (not CCD) when Hale-Bopp
              visited. But I was particularly interested in the structure of the
              gases around the nucleus, but I've seen very few images or drawings of
              same--most show the tails, but not the inner coma/nucleus structure. My
              own images from that time were of low quality, but did show at least
              some of the structure. If someone has good sources or links, I'd be
              interested. Thanks.

              John Menke
              menkescientific.com

              On 12/01/2010 6:41 AM, RICHARD MILES wrote:
              > Hi Chris,
              >
              > The drawing by Edmund Weiss of Donati's Comet (1858) appeared in his
              > "Bilder-Atlas der Sternenwelt. Eine Astronomie fur jedermann" published in
              > 1887/88. It was used by Springer as the basis for the cover illustration of
              > Martin Mobberley's book, "Hunting and Imaging Comets" which by the way was
              > published last month - a very excellent and readable book, I might add.
              >
              > Note that there were several drawings and paintings made of Comet Donati the
            • sabiajohn
              I was able to photograph the inner coma of Hale-Bopp on film and a number of evening. Once I interupted public viewing to attach camera to telescope before the
              Message 6 of 8 , Dec 2, 2010
                I was able to photograph the inner coma of Hale-Bopp on film and a number of evening. Once I interupted public viewing to attach camera to telescope before the comet would be very low by the time the crowd would have gotten a look.

                Here is link to low resolution image. I do have a few more digital copies from different evening. I may have my sketch from a morning. If memory serves me right it was Feb. 25, 1997 that I made the sketch and first viewed some activity in the coma, not sure of that date at the moment.

                http://www.keystone.edu/observatory/photo_gallery.dot?indexFolder=/observatory/photogallery/CometsandMeteors/&crumbTitle=Comets and Meteors

                I believe it is on one if NASA pages on the comet, but that site may be gone by now.

                John D Sabia
                s a b ia j o h n @ a o l . c o m

                --- In comets-ml@yahoogroups.com, john@... wrote:
                >
                > re comet prints, I unfortunately had only film (not CCD) when Hale-Bopp
                > visited. But I was particularly interested in the structure of the
                > gases around the nucleus, but I've seen very few images or drawings of
                > same--most show the tails, but not the inner coma/nucleus structure. My
                > own images from that time were of low quality, but did show at least
                > some of the structure. If someone has good sources or links, I'd be
                > interested. Thanks.
                >
                > John Menke
                > menkescientific.com
                >
                > On 12/01/2010 6:41 AM, RICHARD MILES wrote:
                > > Hi Chris,
                > >
                > > The drawing by Edmund Weiss of Donati's Comet (1858) appeared in his
                > > "Bilder-Atlas der Sternenwelt. Eine Astronomie fur jedermann" published in
                > > 1887/88. It was used by Springer as the basis for the cover illustration of
                > > Martin Mobberley's book, "Hunting and Imaging Comets" which by the way was
                > > published last month - a very excellent and readable book, I might add.
                > >
                > > Note that there were several drawings and paintings made of Comet Donati the
                >
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