Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

CIAM and the shut-off debate

Expand Messages
  • henning.forbech
    In a month the CIAM meeting in Lausanne will decide which rules will be effective from January 2009. For combat the most radical change of the rules is the
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 23, 2008
      In a month the CIAM meeting in Lausanne will decide which rules will
      be effective from January 2009. For combat the most radical change of
      the rules is the mandatory shut-offs.
      Last November there were a lot of discussions about shut-offs in this
      forum. When I look back I can see that there are two arguments from
      that discussion that I would like to comment on:

      "One accident can kill combat"
      This is simply not true. A fatal accident would be a catastrophe but
      is not going to close down combat permanently. Other sports and
      hobbies have been hit by accidents but that did not close down these
      sports. I find that this argument has been highly overestimated in the
      debate. To me it almost looks like a fear campaign. A campaign that
      tries to state that something has to be done right now. Calm down - we
      are not under any direct threat and there is no need to panic.
      If there really was a threat against combat right now the shut-off
      rules could be implemented from 2008 as safety rules. Nobody has
      suggested that so we can't be in any immediate danger.
      If one accident could kill combat the same must be true for the other
      control line classes. Are we going to see proposals for mandatory
      anti-fly-away devices in these classes too? As far as I know there is
      not even a debate on fly-aways in Speed, TeamRace or Stunt.
      The fact that fly-aways happen less often in these classes than in
      combat does not make any difference. Fly-aways do happen in these
      classes and if it only takes one accident to kill a class they must be
      under the same threat as combat.
      How come that these shut-off rules must be implemented in such a hurry
      for combat if other classes, with a similar threat, can go on
      completely unaffected?
      To me this indicates that there must be time enough to develop systems
      and think out new rules before the shut-off is made mandatory. It can
      not be a problem to postpone the introduction for a year or two.

      "The big lawsuit"
      The fear of an accident followed by a lawsuit against all pilots,
      mechanics, officials, contest directors and organisations was used as
      an argument in that debate.
      This risk of a big lawsuit is an US issue. The rest of the world does
      not have these outrageous legal issues. "The big lawsuit" is a "local"
      problem in the United Stats and should not be used as an argument for
      how the combat rules should be organized for the world as a whole.
      Some times I get the impression that the risk of the "big lawsuit" is
      more important than the safety of persons. We could have a lot more
      security for the same effort in time and money if we spend it on a
      safety net around the flying circle. But only the safety for persons
      outside the event (a man walking the dog in the park) seems to have
      any interest. And the concern is not about his health. No, it is about
      the risk of a big lawsuit!
      I see the pressure on CIAM to introduce shut-off as an attempt to
      solve this local problem through an international organisation. I
      think the CIAM meeting should withstand this pressure and take the
      time that is needed to find some good solutions for the fly-away problem.

      The risk of a lawsuit is a real problem for the American model flyers
      and they need to find a solution. From my point of view the new
      shut-off rule is not a solution to this problem. I fact it is going to
      make things much worse!
      I will explain how and why in my next comment: "Shut-off in all classes"


      Regards,
      Henning Forbech



      See an example of the use of these arguments here:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/message/15301
    • davidackery
      The date for the CIAM meeting 27-29 March. You can download the Agenda for the meeting here. http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/meetings/200803 ... will ... of
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 24, 2008
        The date for the CIAM meeting 27-29 March.
        You can download the Agenda for the meeting here.

        http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/meetings/200803



        --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "henning.forbech" <hf@...> wrote:
        >
        > In a month the CIAM meeting in Lausanne will decide which rules
        will
        > be effective from January 2009. For combat the most radical change
        of
        > the rules is the mandatory shut-offs.
        > Last November there were a lot of discussions about shut-offs in
        this
        > forum. When I look back I can see that there are two arguments from
        > that discussion that I would like to comment on:
        >
        > "One accident can kill combat"
        > This is simply not true. A fatal accident would be a catastrophe
        but
        > is not going to close down combat permanently. Other sports and
        > hobbies have been hit by accidents but that did not close down
        these
        > sports. I find that this argument has been highly overestimated in
        the
        > debate. To me it almost looks like a fear campaign. A campaign that
        > tries to state that something has to be done right now. Calm down -
        we
        > are not under any direct threat and there is no need to panic.
        > If there really was a threat against combat right now the shut-off
        > rules could be implemented from 2008 as safety rules. Nobody has
        > suggested that so we can't be in any immediate danger.
        > If one accident could kill combat the same must be true for the
        other
        > control line classes. Are we going to see proposals for mandatory
        > anti-fly-away devices in these classes too? As far as I know there
        is
        > not even a debate on fly-aways in Speed, TeamRace or Stunt.
        > The fact that fly-aways happen less often in these classes than in
        > combat does not make any difference. Fly-aways do happen in these
        > classes and if it only takes one accident to kill a class they
        must be
        > under the same threat as combat.
        > How come that these shut-off rules must be implemented in such a
        hurry
        > for combat if other classes, with a similar threat, can go on
        > completely unaffected?
        > To me this indicates that there must be time enough to develop
        systems
        > and think out new rules before the shut-off is made mandatory. It
        can
        > not be a problem to postpone the introduction for a year or two.
        >
        > "The big lawsuit"
        > The fear of an accident followed by a lawsuit against all pilots,
        > mechanics, officials, contest directors and organisations was used
        as
        > an argument in that debate.
        > This risk of a big lawsuit is an US issue. The rest of the world
        does
        > not have these outrageous legal issues. "The big lawsuit" is
        a "local"
        > problem in the United Stats and should not be used as an argument
        for
        > how the combat rules should be organized for the world as a whole.
        > Some times I get the impression that the risk of the "big lawsuit"
        is
        > more important than the safety of persons. We could have a lot more
        > security for the same effort in time and money if we spend it on a
        > safety net around the flying circle. But only the safety for
        persons
        > outside the event (a man walking the dog in the park) seems to have
        > any interest. And the concern is not about his health. No, it is
        about
        > the risk of a big lawsuit!
        > I see the pressure on CIAM to introduce shut-off as an attempt to
        > solve this local problem through an international organisation. I
        > think the CIAM meeting should withstand this pressure and take the
        > time that is needed to find some good solutions for the fly-away
        problem.
        >
        > The risk of a lawsuit is a real problem for the American model
        flyers
        > and they need to find a solution. From my point of view the new
        > shut-off rule is not a solution to this problem. I fact it is
        going to
        > make things much worse!
        > I will explain how and why in my next comment: "Shut-off in all
        classes"
        >
        >
        > Regards,
        > Henning Forbech
        >
        >
        >
        > See an example of the use of these arguments here:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/message/15301
        >
      • Phil C
        While those of us in the USA may have to deal with lawsuits, those in Europe have to deal with the EU commission. From what I ve read in my dealings in the
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 25, 2008
          While those of us in the USA may have to deal with lawsuits, those in
          Europe have to deal with the EU commission. From what I've read in my
          dealings in the food industry, the EU bureaucracy is every bit as much
          to be feared as any US lawyer.

          We have had the big bad lawsuit already here in the US and it has not
          cancelled flying. Several years ago, in the mid '90's, a speed model at
          a California contest came off the lines and hit an airline pilot
          spectator in the leg. It effectively ended his flying career many years
          short of retirement, not mention doing serious damage to his leg and
          nearly crippling him. I don't all the details, but the end result was a
          $1MM + settlement to compensate him for his injuries and lost flying
          career. We still fly speed, and an F2D model will never cause as much
          damage as a 3 lb. speed model flying 180mph + will.
        • David Lovgren
          As Henning has so correctly asked: So why don t speed models need shut offs especially if there s a demonstrated injury causing fly away problem UNlike F2D???
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 25, 2008
            As Henning has so correctly asked: So why don't speed models need shut offs especially if there's a demonstrated injury causing fly away problem UNlike F2D???

            Dave

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Phil C
            To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:54 AM
            Subject: [combat-l] Re:CIAM and the shut-off debate


            While those of us in the USA may have to deal with lawsuits, those in
            Europe have to deal with the EU commission. From what I've read in my
            dealings in the food industry, the EU bureaucracy is every bit as much
            to be feared as any US lawyer.

            We have had the big bad lawsuit already here in the US and it has not
            cancelled flying. Several years ago, in the mid '90's, a speed model at
            a California contest came off the lines and hit an airline pilot
            spectator in the leg. It effectively ended his flying career many years
            short of retirement, not mention doing serious damage to his leg and
            nearly crippling him. I don't all the details, but the end result was a
            $1MM + settlement to compensate him for his injuries and lost flying
            career. We still fly speed, and an F2D model will never cause as much
            damage as a 3 lb. speed model flying 180mph + will.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Steve Stewart
            LIFE AIN T FAIR, that s why. Steve ... From: David Lovgren To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [combat-l] Re:CIAM
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 1, 2008
              LIFE AIN'T FAIR, that's why.

              Steve

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: David Lovgren
              To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:18 PM
              Subject: Re: [combat-l] Re:CIAM and the shut-off debate


              As Henning has so correctly asked: So why don't speed models need shut offs especially if there's a demonstrated injury causing fly away problem UNlike F2D???

              Dave

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Phil C
              To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:54 AM
              Subject: [combat-l] Re:CIAM and the shut-off debate

              While those of us in the USA may have to deal with lawsuits, those in
              Europe have to deal with the EU commission. From what I've read in my
              dealings in the food industry, the EU bureaucracy is every bit as much
              to be feared as any US lawyer.

              We have had the big bad lawsuit already here in the US and it has not
              cancelled flying. Several years ago, in the mid '90's, a speed model at
              a California contest came off the lines and hit an airline pilot
              spectator in the leg. It effectively ended his flying career many years
              short of retirement, not mention doing serious damage to his leg and
              nearly crippling him. I don't all the details, but the end result was a
              $1MM + settlement to compensate him for his injuries and lost flying
              career. We still fly speed, and an F2D model will never cause as much
              damage as a 3 lb. speed model flying 180mph + will.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dalibor Toman
              Hi, On Monday, February 25, 2008 9:18 PM , ... Sorry, I don t understand these arguments... 1) we are flying F2D not F2B/C/D... 2) only in F2D (and Team
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
                Hi,

                On Monday, February 25, 2008 9:18 PM ,
                David Lovgren <dlovgren@...> wrote:

                > As Henning has so correctly asked: So why don't speed models need
                > shut offs especially if there's a demonstrated injury causing fly
                > away problem UNlike F2D???

                Sorry, I don't understand these arguments...

                1) we are flying F2D not F2B/C/D...
                2) only in F2D (and Team racers) we have more models in one flying
                circle - so the risk that the model flies away is much higher (due to
                collisions)
                3) only in F2D the matter of competition means that the risk of
                flyaway is high
                4) compare the amount of flights in one F2D competition against other
                categories...

                I thing the fact is that there are flyaways in F2D and the total
                number of them is much much higher than total of flyaways in other F2
                categories together.
                Yes, it is true that the impact energy in other categories may be
                higher but if the plane hits the 'correct' place then it doesn't
                matter.

                -
                I am not sure we need shut-off in F2D and I am not sure if it is
                possible to create a good and working device (it seems for me there is
                no really good one yet). But if we discuss this we needn't use
                arguments which sounds like ones used by my children (why I have to do
                this when she needn't ...)

                --
                I think that Boeing and Airbus should implement a kind of shut-off
                device. Their planes have _BIG_ impact energy and usually if they do a
                fly-away there are many injuries..


                D. Toman
              • Iskandar Taib
                ... Me neither. As I ve said in the past, pointing fingers at other groups are simply a way to avoid having to do something ourselves. Especially when there s
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
                  Dalibor Toman <dtoman@...> wrote:

                  > On Monday, February 25, 2008 9:18 PM ,
                  > David Lovgren <dlovgren@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > As Henning has so correctly asked: So why don't
                  > speed models need
                  > > shut offs especially if there's a demonstrated
                  > injury causing fly
                  > > away problem UNlike F2D???
                  >
                  > Sorry, I don't understand these arguments...

                  Me neither. As I've said in the past, pointing fingers
                  at other groups are simply a way to avoid having to do
                  something ourselves. Especially when there's no
                  flyaway issue with the other groups to begin with.

                  > 1) we are flying F2D not F2B/C/D...
                  > 2) only in F2D (and Team racers) we have more models
                  > in one flying
                  > circle - so the risk that the model flies away is
                  > much higher (due to
                  > collisions)
                  > 3) only in F2D the matter of competition means that
                  > the risk of
                  > flyaway is high
                  > 4) compare the amount of flights in one F2D
                  > competition against other
                  > categories...

                  Exactly. When was the last time a F2A/B/C airplane
                  flew away that you've heard of at a competition? A and
                  C are flown behind fences, they know the planes are
                  not going to fly OVER the fence (too bad that won't
                  work in our case, it'd be a simple fix). I've heard of
                  stunters breaking lines and flying away, but only
                  once, at one competition where they were trying to fly
                  with 35mph winds (silly thing to do).

                  Iskandar
                • temp.status
                  They (speed fliers and models) fly in a netted circle in the UK Nationals. Why can t we??????????? ... From: Steve Stewart To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 3, 2008
                    They (speed fliers and models) fly in a netted circle in the UK Nationals.
                    Why can't we???????????


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Steve Stewart
                    To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 3:29 PM
                    Subject: Re: [combat-l] Re:CIAM and the shut-off debate


                    LIFE AIN'T FAIR, that's why.

                    Steve

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: David Lovgren
                    To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 1:18 PM
                    Subject: Re: [combat-l] Re:CIAM and the shut-off debate

                    As Henning has so correctly asked: So why don't speed models need shut offs especially if there's a demonstrated injury causing fly away problem UNlike F2D???

                    Dave

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Phil C
                    To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:54 AM
                    Subject: [combat-l] Re:CIAM and the shut-off debate

                    While those of us in the USA may have to deal with lawsuits, those in
                    Europe have to deal with the EU commission. From what I've read in my
                    dealings in the food industry, the EU bureaucracy is every bit as much
                    to be feared as any US lawyer.

                    We have had the big bad lawsuit already here in the US and it has not
                    cancelled flying. Several years ago, in the mid '90's, a speed model at
                    a California contest came off the lines and hit an airline pilot
                    spectator in the leg. It effectively ended his flying career many years
                    short of retirement, not mention doing serious damage to his leg and
                    nearly crippling him. I don't all the details, but the end result was a
                    $1MM + settlement to compensate him for his injuries and lost flying
                    career. We still fly speed, and an F2D model will never cause as much
                    damage as a 3 lb. speed model flying 180mph + will.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • iskandartaib
                    ... Nationals. ... You d have to have a net 60 feet high and covered at the top, that s why. Iskandar
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 4, 2008
                      In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "temp.status" <temp.status@...> wrote:

                      > They (speed fliers and models) fly in a netted circle in the UK
                      Nationals.
                      > Why can't we???????????

                      You'd have to have a net 60 feet high and covered at the top, that's
                      why.

                      Iskandar
                    • Ray Stone
                      On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 8:44 PM, iskandartaib ... --Ray P.S. not that it makes any difference, but when I was flying combat we didn t
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 5, 2008
                        On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 8:44 PM, iskandartaib <ntaib@...>
                        wrote:

                        > In combat-l@yahoogroups.com <combat-l%40yahoogroups.com>, "temp.status"
                        > <temp.status@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > They (speed fliers and models) fly in a netted circle in the UK
                        > Nationals.
                        > > Why can't we???????????
                        >
                        > You'd have to have a net 60 feet high and covered at the top, that's
                        > why.
                        >
                        > Iskandar
                        >
                        > Better rethink that, Isky...add in your height plus the length of your
                        > arm, and the model's wingspan, and youj're at 70 feet minimum--probably 75
                        > as a practical matter.
                        >





                        >
                        > I read.
                        > I read of a fella that was going to fly in a warehouse. He measured the
                        > ceiling at, I think, 30'...cut himself some 30' lines and went at it.
                        > Discovered his mistake, of course, halfway through the first wingover...
                        >

                        --Ray

                        P.S. not that it makes any difference, but when I was flying combat we
                        didn't have shutoffs, didn't need no stinkin' shutoffs. Cutaways brought new
                        meaning to the term "spectator sport"--the spectators got intimately and
                        immediately involved!

                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • temp.status
                        Do you mean you can t sort problems in life!!! Netting should be easy. ... From: iskandartaib To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 2:44
                        Message 11 of 15 , Mar 5, 2008
                          Do you mean you can't sort problems in life!!!
                          Netting should be easy.


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: iskandartaib
                          To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 2:44 AM
                          Subject: [combat-l] Re:CIAM and the shut-off debate


                          In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "temp.status" <temp.status@...> wrote:

                          > They (speed fliers and models) fly in a netted circle in the UK
                          Nationals.
                          > Why can't we???????????

                          You'd have to have a net 60 feet high and covered at the top, that's
                          why.

                          Iskandar
                        • Robert Furr
                          ... Maybe easy... inexpensive no. The only places left in the USA where speed is flown are in California and at Muncie as they are the only places with the
                          Message 12 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
                            --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "temp.status" <temp.status@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Do you mean you can't sort problems in life!!!
                            > Netting should be easy.
                            >

                            Maybe easy... inexpensive no. The only places left in the USA where
                            speed is flown are in California and at Muncie as they are the only
                            places with the wire fence needed to slow down (notice I did not say
                            stop) a speed model. To completely contain a flying cirle is an
                            expense far beyond any but national modeling organizations.
                          • timothy soukup
                            Dallas flies SPEED also, Dallas Model Aircraft Association. And yes, we fly JET SPEED TOO. Complete with cage barrier....... ... Maybe easy... inexpensive no.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
                              Dallas flies SPEED also, Dallas Model Aircraft Association.

                              And yes, we fly JET SPEED TOO. Complete with cage barrier.......

                              Robert Furr <IceRinkDad@...> wrote:
                              --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "temp.status" <temp.status@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Do you mean you can't sort problems in life!!!
                              > Netting should be easy.
                              >

                              Maybe easy... inexpensive no. The only places left in the USA where
                              speed is flown are in California and at Muncie as they are the only
                              places with the wire fence needed to slow down (notice I did not say
                              stop) a speed model. To completely contain a flying cirle is an
                              expense far beyond any but national modeling organizations.








                              ---------------------------------
                              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Dave Rolley
                              Bob, Not quite correct. The AMA uses netting around the speed and racing circles. The control line club in Denver contacted the AMA to find out what type of
                              Message 14 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
                                Bob,

                                Not quite correct.

                                The AMA uses netting around the speed and racing circles.

                                The control line club in Denver contacted the AMA to find out what
                                type of netting and where to buy it. The Denver club now has a full
                                circle net they use for their speed circle on contest days.

                                I was at a contest in Florida a couple week back that had what
                                appeared to be the same type of netting around the racing circle.

                                I don't remember the height of the netting. Probably about 12 feet.

                                The Whittier Narrows site in California has a permanent chain link
                                fence around their speed circle.

                                later,

                                Dave


                                Dave--- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Furr" <IceRinkDad@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "temp.status" <temp.status@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Do you mean you can't sort problems in life!!!
                                > > Netting should be easy.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Maybe easy... inexpensive no. The only places left in the USA where
                                > speed is flown are in California and at Muncie as they are the only
                                > places with the wire fence needed to slow down (notice I did not say
                                > stop) a speed model. To completely contain a flying cirle is an
                                > expense far beyond any but national modeling organizations.
                                >
                              • Iskandar Taib
                                From what I ve been told, the idea behind the netting was that, if you leave the netting loose, the model won t punch through it but will become tangled up in
                                Message 15 of 15 , Mar 6, 2008
                                  From what I've been told, the idea behind the netting
                                  was that, if you leave the netting loose, the model
                                  won't punch through it but will become tangled up in
                                  it and be slowed down and will come to a stop in the
                                  netting. Not a good idea to stand right up close to
                                  the netting, in that case. I don't know if it's
                                  actually been tested by releasing a model, but I can
                                  imagine a pilot stumbling and falling before getting a
                                  model into the pylon has happened in the past.

                                  Problem is, even if netting will work to stop a F2D
                                  model, you'd need a 65 foot radius netted hemisphere
                                  rather than just a fence. Think baseball cage, or golf
                                  driving range.

                                  Iskandar
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.