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Re: 3 second shut down problem...........

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  • henning.forbech
    If you read the proposals for new combat rules you will find both a 3 second AND a 5 second rule.
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 18, 2007
      If you read the proposals for new combat rules you will find both a 3
      second AND a 5 second rule.
      (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/files/clprprule1107.doc)

      The 3 second rule:
      "Demonstration of the engine shut-off device may be required by the
      judges before each heat. The engine shut-off device must stop the
      engine within 3 seconds of activation. Additional demonstrations may
      be requested by the judges after the heat"

      The 5 second rule:
      "In the event of a flyaway where the engine shut-off device does not
      stop the engine within 5 seconds"

      This discussion on the activation time is not new.
      One year back Doc Jackson made the first proposal for mandatory shut-
      off in combat and he used a 2 second rule. Back then I made an
      alternative proposal with the 3 and 5 second rules.

      /Henning Forbech




      PS: Here is some of the old background information to 3 and 5 second
      rules:

      Section 4.4.6: Controls - Technical Verification:
      "In the demonstration the shutoff must stop the engine within 3
      seconds of activation."
      Last year I did some experiments with a simple spring system that
      shuts off the fuel supply by squishing the fuel line. The engine
      stopped after approximately 1.9 seconds which is very close to the 2
      seconds proposed by Laird Jackson.
      A 2 second limit might lead to discussions on how to measure the
      response time in the demonstration. When has the engine actual
      stopped? When the engine is not making any combustion any more, when
      it is not turning over anymore or when the propeller comes to a
      complete stand still?
      With a shutoff system that stops the fuel supply a combat engine will
      normally stop working after 1.5 seconds and will typically come to a
      complete stand still after 2.5 seconds. Therefore a 3 seconds limit
      seems more suitable for practical use.
      You will find a video clip with the test here:
      http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm

      Section 4.4.15: Cancellation of the Flight:
      "In the event of a flyaway the pilot shall be disqualified if the
      shutoff device does not stop the engine within 5 seconds."
      In this situation the time limit is set a little higher than during
      the demonstration.
      The idea is to let the technical verification ensure that the shutoff
      system is capable of bringing the engine to a fast stop. In the event
      of a flyaway it should then only be necessary to observe if the
      shutoff system is working or not.
      During a flyaway it will be very difficult to measure the exact
      reaction time for the shutoff system. The time keepers will typically
      be seeing the midair collision but hearing the engines stopping.
      The distances involved are far too big for a visible observation of
      the propeller movement, so the time keepers must rely on the sound of
      the engines.
      In a situation where a model is flying away from the timekeepers the
      delay of the sound can be as much as 0.35 seconds!
      (distance across the circle: 35 m, model flying 2 seconds at 42 m/s,
      speed of sound: 344 m/s)
      By setting the time limit for the flyaway situation higher than the
      test situation, we can eliminate a lot of discussion on how the time
      measurement was done during the flyaway, but we will still be able to
      disqualify a pilot with a non-working shutoff.


      For more information visit:
      http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm - look for: "Early proposals for
      shut-off rules:"

      or find it here:
      http://www.modelflyvning.dk/linestyring/combat/shutoff/docs/Forbech
      comments.pdf
    • kb1_us
      we are required to demonstrate the shut-off prior to a match being flown here. It s a good way to warm up the engine for the instant starts required in our s/l
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 19, 2007
        we are required to demonstrate the shut-off prior to a match being
        flown here. It's a good way to warm up the engine for the instant
        starts required in our s/l event as well as fast. There have been
        shut-off's that do not pass the test mostly because of poor
        maintenance.It's a good way to be sure the devices work.

        Ken



        --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "henning.forbech" <hf@...> wrote:
        >
        > If you read the proposals for new combat rules you will find both a
        3
        > second AND a 5 second rule.
        > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/files/clprprule1107.doc)
        >
        > The 3 second rule:
        > "Demonstration of the engine shut-off device may be required by the
        > judges before each heat. The engine shut-off device must stop the
        > engine within 3 seconds of activation. Additional demonstrations
        may
        > be requested by the judges after the heat"
        >
        > The 5 second rule:
        > "In the event of a flyaway where the engine shut-off device does
        not
        > stop the engine within 5 seconds"
        >
        > This discussion on the activation time is not new.
        > One year back Doc Jackson made the first proposal for mandatory
        shut-
        > off in combat and he used a 2 second rule. Back then I made an
        > alternative proposal with the 3 and 5 second rules.
        >
        > /Henning Forbech
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > PS: Here is some of the old background information to 3 and 5
        second
        > rules:
        >
        > Section 4.4.6: Controls - Technical Verification:
        > "In the demonstration the shutoff must stop the engine within 3
        > seconds of activation."
        > Last year I did some experiments with a simple spring system that
        > shuts off the fuel supply by squishing the fuel line. The engine
        > stopped after approximately 1.9 seconds which is very close to the
        2
        > seconds proposed by Laird Jackson.
        > A 2 second limit might lead to discussions on how to measure the
        > response time in the demonstration. When has the engine actual
        > stopped? When the engine is not making any combustion any more,
        when
        > it is not turning over anymore or when the propeller comes to a
        > complete stand still?
        > With a shutoff system that stops the fuel supply a combat engine
        will
        > normally stop working after 1.5 seconds and will typically come to
        a
        > complete stand still after 2.5 seconds. Therefore a 3 seconds limit
        > seems more suitable for practical use.
        > You will find a video clip with the test here:
        > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm
        >
        > Section 4.4.15: Cancellation of the Flight:
        > "In the event of a flyaway the pilot shall be disqualified if the
        > shutoff device does not stop the engine within 5 seconds."
        > In this situation the time limit is set a little higher than during
        > the demonstration.
        > The idea is to let the technical verification ensure that the
        shutoff
        > system is capable of bringing the engine to a fast stop. In the
        event
        > of a flyaway it should then only be necessary to observe if the
        > shutoff system is working or not.
        > During a flyaway it will be very difficult to measure the exact
        > reaction time for the shutoff system. The time keepers will
        typically
        > be seeing the midair collision but hearing the engines stopping.
        > The distances involved are far too big for a visible observation of
        > the propeller movement, so the time keepers must rely on the sound
        of
        > the engines.
        > In a situation where a model is flying away from the timekeepers
        the
        > delay of the sound can be as much as 0.35 seconds!
        > (distance across the circle: 35 m, model flying 2 seconds at 42
        m/s,
        > speed of sound: 344 m/s)
        > By setting the time limit for the flyaway situation higher than the
        > test situation, we can eliminate a lot of discussion on how the
        time
        > measurement was done during the flyaway, but we will still be able
        to
        > disqualify a pilot with a non-working shutoff.
        >
        >
        > For more information visit:
        > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm - look for: "Early proposals
        for
        > shut-off rules:"
        >
        > or find it here:
        > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/linestyring/combat/shutoff/docs/Forbech
        > comments.pdf
        >
      • bmears9413@aol.com
        Me and Andy and Larry flew lots of combat matches yesterday. I flew with my shutoff all day and didnt have any malfunctions. One flight the plane rolled in on
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 19, 2007
          Me and Andy and Larry flew lots of combat matches yesterday. I flew with my shutoff all day and didnt have any malfunctions. One flight the plane rolled in on me and started shutting down. When it hit back on the end of the lines it lit right back up. I have also built two more totally different shutoffs. Ill try and get some pics on here soon. One takes the movement of both lines from the top down, the other uses both lines and holds them together, then uses the "spread" for the action. Another idea not yeat explored is the dump....not from the tubing side, but from the butt end of the blader. If you were to "pop the plug" out of the end of the bladder I think it would shut down in less than two seconds.

          Bob Mears


          -----Original Message-----
          From: kb1_us <kb1_us@...>
          To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 9:21 am
          Subject: [combat-l] Re: 3 second shut down problem...........






          we are required to demonstrate the shut-off prior to a match being
          flown here. It's a good way to warm up the engine for the instant
          starts required in our s/l event as well as fast. There have been
          shut-off's that do not pass the test mostly because of poor
          maintenance.It's a good way to be sure the devices work.

          Ken

          --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "henning.forbech" <hf@...> wrote:
          >
          > If you read the proposals for new combat rules you will find both a
          3
          > second AND a 5 second rule.
          > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/files/clprprule1107.doc)
          >
          > The 3 second rule:
          > "Demonstration of the engine shut-off device may be required by the
          > judges before each heat. The engine shut-off device must stop the
          > engine within 3 seconds of activation. Additional demonstrations
          may
          > be requested by the judges after the heat"
          >
          > The 5 second rule:
          > "In the event of a flyaway where the engine shut-off device does
          not
          > stop the engine within 5 seconds"
          >
          > This discussion on the activation time is not new.
          > One year back Doc Jackson made the first proposal for mandatory
          shut-
          > off in combat and he used a 2 second rule. Back then I made an
          > alternative proposal with the 3 and 5 second rules.
          >
          > /Henning Forbech
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > PS: Here is some of the old background information to 3 and 5
          second
          > rules:
          >
          > Section 4.4.6: Controls - Technical Verification:
          > "In the demonstration the shutoff must stop the engine within 3
          > seconds of activation."
          > Last year I did some experiments with a simple spring system that
          > shuts off the fuel supply by squishing the fuel line. The engine
          > stopped after approximately 1.9 seconds which is very close to the
          2
          > seconds proposed by Laird Jackson.
          > A 2 second limit might lead to discussions on how to measure the
          > response time in the demonstration. When has the engine actual
          > stopped? When the engine is not making any combustion any more,
          when
          > it is not turning over anymore or when the propeller comes to a
          > complete stand still?
          > With a shutoff system that stops the fuel supply a combat engine
          will
          > normally stop working after 1.5 seconds and will typically come to
          a
          > complete stand still after 2.5 seconds. Therefore a 3 seconds limit
          > seems more suitable for practical use.
          > You will find a video clip with the test here:
          > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm
          >
          > Section 4.4.15: Cancellation of the Flight:
          > "In the event of a flyaway the pilot shall be disqualified if the
          > shutoff device does not stop the engine within 5 seconds."
          > In this situation the time limit is set a little higher than during
          > the demonstration.
          > The idea is to let the technical verification ensure that the
          shutoff
          > system is capable of bringing the engine to a fast stop. In the
          event
          > of a flyaway it should then only be necessary to observe if the
          > shutoff system is working or not.
          > During a flyaway it will be very difficult to measure the exact
          > reaction time for the shutoff system. The time keepers will
          typically
          > be seeing the midair collision but hearing the engines stopping.
          > The distances involved are far too big for a visible observation of
          > the propeller movement, so the time keepers must rely on the sound
          of
          > the engines.
          > In a situation where a model is flying away from the timekeepers
          the
          > delay of the sound can be as much as 0.35 seconds!
          > (distance across the circle: 35 m, model flying 2 seconds at 42
          m/s,
          > speed of sound: 344 m/s)
          > By setting the time limit for the flyaway situation higher than the
          > test situation, we can eliminate a lot of discussion on how the
          time
          > measurement was done during the flyaway, but we will still be able
          to
          > disqualify a pilot with a non-working shutoff.
          >
          >
          > For more information visit:
          > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm - look for: "Early proposals
          for
          > shut-off rules:"
          >
          > or find it here:
          > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/linestyring/combat/shutoff/docs/Forbech
          > comments.pdf
          >





          ________________________________________________________________________
          Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • kb1_us
          The dump has been explored.....it works something like this. POP! and then the wing fills up with fuel......engine stops...... would like to see the pic s of
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 19, 2007
            The dump has been explored.....it works something like this.

            "POP!"

            and then the wing fills up with fuel......engine stops......

            would like to see the pic's of your new shut-off's I'm trying a
            similar one using a cable....the more I work on it, the more I like
            your's.....





            --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, bmears9413@... wrote:
            >
            > Me and Andy and Larry flew lots of combat matches yesterday. I flew
            with my shutoff all day and didnt have any malfunctions. One flight
            the plane rolled in on me and started shutting down. When it hit back
            on the end of the lines it lit right back up. I have also built two
            more totally different shutoffs. Ill try and get some pics on here
            soon. One takes the movement of both lines from the top down, the
            other uses both lines and holds them together, then uses the "spread"
            for the action. Another idea not yeat explored is the dump....not
            from the tubing side, but from the butt end of the blader. If you
            were to "pop the plug" out of the end of the bladder I think it would
            shut down in less than two seconds.
            >
            > Bob Mears
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: kb1_us <kb1_us@...>
            > To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 9:21 am
            > Subject: [combat-l] Re: 3 second shut down problem...........
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > we are required to demonstrate the shut-off prior to a match being
            > flown here. It's a good way to warm up the engine for the instant
            > starts required in our s/l event as well as fast. There have been
            > shut-off's that do not pass the test mostly because of poor
            > maintenance.It's a good way to be sure the devices work.
            >
            > Ken
            >
            > --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "henning.forbech" <hf@> wrote:
            > >
            > > If you read the proposals for new combat rules you will find both
            a
            > 3
            > > second AND a 5 second rule.
            > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/files/clprprule1107.doc)
            > >
            > > The 3 second rule:
            > > "Demonstration of the engine shut-off device may be required by
            the
            > > judges before each heat. The engine shut-off device must stop the
            > > engine within 3 seconds of activation. Additional demonstrations
            > may
            > > be requested by the judges after the heat"
            > >
            > > The 5 second rule:
            > > "In the event of a flyaway where the engine shut-off device does
            > not
            > > stop the engine within 5 seconds"
            > >
            > > This discussion on the activation time is not new.
            > > One year back Doc Jackson made the first proposal for mandatory
            > shut-
            > > off in combat and he used a 2 second rule. Back then I made an
            > > alternative proposal with the 3 and 5 second rules.
            > >
            > > /Henning Forbech
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > PS: Here is some of the old background information to 3 and 5
            > second
            > > rules:
            > >
            > > Section 4.4.6: Controls - Technical Verification:
            > > "In the demonstration the shutoff must stop the engine within 3
            > > seconds of activation."
            > > Last year I did some experiments with a simple spring system that
            > > shuts off the fuel supply by squishing the fuel line. The engine
            > > stopped after approximately 1.9 seconds which is very close to
            the
            > 2
            > > seconds proposed by Laird Jackson.
            > > A 2 second limit might lead to discussions on how to measure the
            > > response time in the demonstration. When has the engine actual
            > > stopped? When the engine is not making any combustion any more,
            > when
            > > it is not turning over anymore or when the propeller comes to a
            > > complete stand still?
            > > With a shutoff system that stops the fuel supply a combat engine
            > will
            > > normally stop working after 1.5 seconds and will typically come
            to
            > a
            > > complete stand still after 2.5 seconds. Therefore a 3 seconds
            limit
            > > seems more suitable for practical use.
            > > You will find a video clip with the test here:
            > > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm
            > >
            > > Section 4.4.15: Cancellation of the Flight:
            > > "In the event of a flyaway the pilot shall be disqualified if the
            > > shutoff device does not stop the engine within 5 seconds."
            > > In this situation the time limit is set a little higher than
            during
            > > the demonstration.
            > > The idea is to let the technical verification ensure that the
            > shutoff
            > > system is capable of bringing the engine to a fast stop. In the
            > event
            > > of a flyaway it should then only be necessary to observe if the
            > > shutoff system is working or not.
            > > During a flyaway it will be very difficult to measure the exact
            > > reaction time for the shutoff system. The time keepers will
            > typically
            > > be seeing the midair collision but hearing the engines stopping.
            > > The distances involved are far too big for a visible observation
            of
            > > the propeller movement, so the time keepers must rely on the
            sound
            > of
            > > the engines.
            > > In a situation where a model is flying away from the timekeepers
            > the
            > > delay of the sound can be as much as 0.35 seconds!
            > > (distance across the circle: 35 m, model flying 2 seconds at 42
            > m/s,
            > > speed of sound: 344 m/s)
            > > By setting the time limit for the flyaway situation higher than
            the
            > > test situation, we can eliminate a lot of discussion on how the
            > time
            > > measurement was done during the flyaway, but we will still be
            able
            > to
            > > disqualify a pilot with a non-working shutoff.
            > >
            > >
            > > For more information visit:
            > > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm - look for: "Early proposals
            > for
            > > shut-off rules:"
            > >
            > > or find it here:
            > >
            http://www.modelflyvning.dk/linestyring/combat/shutoff/docs/Forbech
            > > comments.pdf
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ______________________________________________________________________
            __
            > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
            Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • bmears9413@aol.com
            I was kinda thinking you have the bladder end sticking out the bottom....or at least a large drain hole. The planes just never seem to be the same after you
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 19, 2007
              I was kinda thinking you have the bladder end sticking out the bottom....or at least a large drain hole. The planes just never seem to be the same after you fill the wing up....

              Bob Mears


              -----Original Message-----
              From: kb1_us <kb1_us@...>
              To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:38 am
              Subject: [combat-l] Re: 3 second shut down problem...........






              The dump has been explored.....it works something like this.

              "POP!"

              and then the wing fills up with fuel......engine stops......

              would like to see the pic's of your new shut-off's I'm trying a
              similar one using a cable....the more I work on it, the more I like
              your's.....

              --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, bmears9413@... wrote:
              >
              > Me and Andy and Larry flew lots of combat matches yesterday. I flew
              with my shutoff all day and didnt have any malfunctions. One flight
              the plane rolled in on me and started shutting down. When it hit back
              on the end of the lines it lit right back up. I have also built two
              more totally different shutoffs. Ill try and get some pics on here
              soon. One takes the movement of both lines from the top down, the
              other uses both lines and holds them together, then uses the "spread"
              for the action. Another idea not yeat explored is the dump....not
              from the tubing side, but from the butt end of the blader. If you
              were to "pop the plug" out of the end of the bladder I think it would
              shut down in less than two seconds.
              >
              > Bob Mears
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: kb1_us <kb1_us@...>
              > To: combat-l@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 9:21 am
              > Subject: [combat-l] Re: 3 second shut down problem...........
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > we are required to demonstrate the shut-off prior to a match being
              > flown here. It's a good way to warm up the engine for the instant
              > starts required in our s/l event as well as fast. There have been
              > shut-off's that do not pass the test mostly because of poor
              > maintenance.It's a good way to be sure the devices work.
              >
              > Ken
              >
              > --- In combat-l@yahoogroups.com, "henning.forbech" <hf@> wrote:
              > >
              > > If you read the proposals for new combat rules you will find both
              a
              > 3
              > > second AND a 5 second rule.
              > > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/files/clprprule1107.doc)
              > >
              > > The 3 second rule:
              > > "Demonstration of the engine shut-off device may be required by
              the
              > > judges before each heat. The engine shut-off device must stop the
              > > engine within 3 seconds of activation. Additional demonstrations
              > may
              > > be requested by the judges after the heat"
              > >
              > > The 5 second rule:
              > > "In the event of a flyaway where the engine shut-off device does
              > not
              > > stop the engine within 5 seconds"
              > >
              > > This discussion on the activation time is not new.
              > > One year back Doc Jackson made the first proposal for mandatory
              > shut-
              > > off in combat and he used a 2 second rule. Back then I made an
              > > alternative proposal with the 3 and 5 second rules.
              > >
              > > /Henning Forbech
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > PS: Here is some of the old background information to 3 and 5
              > second
              > > rules:
              > >
              > > Section 4.4.6: Controls - Technical Verification:
              > > "In the demonstration the shutoff must stop the engine within 3
              > > seconds of activation."
              > > Last year I did some experiments with a simple spring system that
              > > shuts off the fuel supply by squishing the fuel line. The engine
              > > stopped after approximately 1.9 seconds which is very close to
              the
              > 2
              > > seconds proposed by Laird Jackson.
              > > A 2 second limit might lead to discussions on how to measure the
              > > response time in the demonstration. When has the engine actual
              > > stopped? When the engine is not making any combustion any more,
              > when
              > > it is not turning over anymore or when the propeller comes to a
              > > complete stand still?
              > > With a shutoff system that stops the fuel supply a combat engine
              > will
              > > normally stop working after 1.5 seconds and will typically come
              to
              > a
              > > complete stand still after 2.5 seconds. Therefore a 3 seconds
              limit
              > > seems more suitable for practical use.
              > > You will find a video clip with the test here:
              > > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm
              > >
              > > Section 4.4.15: Cancellation of the Flight:
              > > "In the event of a flyaway the pilot shall be disqualified if the
              > > shutoff device does not stop the engine within 5 seconds."
              > > In this situation the time limit is set a little higher than
              during
              > > the demonstration.
              > > The idea is to let the technical verification ensure that the
              > shutoff
              > > system is capable of bringing the engine to a fast stop. In the
              > event
              > > of a flyaway it should then only be necessary to observe if the
              > > shutoff system is working or not.
              > > During a flyaway it will be very difficult to measure the exact
              > > reaction time for the shutoff system. The time keepers will
              > typically
              > > be seeing the midair collision but hearing the engines stopping.
              > > The distances involved are far too big for a visible observation
              of
              > > the propeller movement, so the time keepers must rely on the
              sound
              > of
              > > the engines.
              > > In a situation where a model is flying away from the timekeepers
              > the
              > > delay of the sound can be as much as 0.35 seconds!
              > > (distance across the circle: 35 m, model flying 2 seconds at 42
              > m/s,
              > > speed of sound: 344 m/s)
              > > By setting the time limit for the flyaway situation higher than
              the
              > > test situation, we can eliminate a lot of discussion on how the
              > time
              > > measurement was done during the flyaway, but we will still be
              able
              > to
              > > disqualify a pilot with a non-working shutoff.
              > >
              > >
              > > For more information visit:
              > > http://www.modelflyvning.dk/f2d.htm - look for: "Early proposals
              > for
              > > shut-off rules:"
              > >
              > > or find it here:
              > >
              http://www.modelflyvning.dk/linestyring/combat/shutoff/docs/Forbech
              > > comments.pdf
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              __________________________________________________________
              __
              > Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL
              Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >





              ________________________________________________________________________
              Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


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