RE: [cp] Re: The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev
- Hi Fred,
recovering a Yahoo list's archives when the list owners have killed it and (apparently) destroyed them would be a very interesting feat and a tremendous precedent (from the point of view of community-owned IP).
Do let us know how it goes, or what Yahoo says, please.
De: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] En nombre de Fred Nickols
Enviado el: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2009 1:55
Asunto: [cp] Re: The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev
Sorry, y'all but I've been busy and just now got around to checking
the CoP posts. I've been a member of the TRDEV group in three
incarnations: (1) the original TRDEV-L list set up by David Passmore,
(2) its successor, TRDEV on Yahoo (the one recently killed) and (3)
TRDEV-L (resurrected and also run by David Passmore). The original
list was "killed" too, because its members' email addresses and
postings were being "harvested" and made use of elsewhere. The second
version of TRDEV (on Yahoo) had its problems and I suspect these
really wore down the moderators/owners. That they destroyed the
archives is to me an inexcusable breach of professional conduct. This
is more inexcusable given their insistence that the postings belonged
to the posters. (Excuse me while I trash your stuff.)
In the end, TRDEV had about 4.5K members. The resurrected TRDEV-L has
about 450, roughly 10 percent of the "executed" list.
If I recall correctly, when TRDEV(1) was shot, TRDEV(2) benefited from
TRDEV(1)'s mailing list. Somehow, I don't think TRDEV(3) had had the
Yet, I'll wager you this: Yahoo still has those TRDEV(2) archives.
Data doesn't disappear in our modern world. Hmm. I wonder how Yahoo
would response to a lawsuit? Gee, I guess I'll find out.
Talk to y'all later :-)
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>, "Verne Morland" <verne@...> wrote:
> Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
> TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that
> the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full
> below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
> group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
> priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
> technologies, etc.
> Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
> > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have
> > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
> > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
> > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
> > were explored.
> > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
> blaming and
> > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
> (as we
> > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
> a democracy.
> I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this.
> mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who
> These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
> experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and
> "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
> decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.
> As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members.
> existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an
> list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there
> been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
> Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of
> but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)
> Thanks and regards,
> D. Verne Morland
> Managing Partner
> ROI Learning Services
> 624 Enid Avenue
> Kettering, Ohio 45429
> Tel: (937) 434-3267
> Web: www.roi-learning.com
> Email: verne@...
> "We put the earn in learning."(tm)
> --- In email@example.com<mailto:trdev%40yahoogroups.com>, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@> wrote:
> ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's
> have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at
> All and any messages members have received as a result of their
> of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
> We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
> with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
> knowledge, and humor.
> This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
> correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and
> several alternatives were explored.
> Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
> and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
> (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
> ever a democracy.
> The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
> Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
> They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
> circumstances among the owners and coordinators.
> Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
> October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
> membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages
> list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining
> topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
> The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the
> the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the
> the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
> were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of
> a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G
> time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away
> subscriber base.
> Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate -
> subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
> usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common
> of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
> discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
> perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider
> acting as an immune system.
> Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to
> Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
> Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with
> view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
> shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a
> During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
> assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive
> of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating
> to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
> Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a
> time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to
> active coordinators.
> Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on
> of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev.Â Apart
> few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable
> but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
> Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
> Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth
> Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to
> served as coordinator.
> Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev
> Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we
> the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
> picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering
stewardship of the
> list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
> annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
> managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich
> "Thanks, Bev!"
> We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
> hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have
> to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
> things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
> policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list
> partisan interests.
> No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over
> to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
> carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have
> a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of
> take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The
> that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
> just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising
avenue with a
> respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
> unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we
> delay the closure any longer.
> What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question
> only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
> still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we
> property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
> anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David
> who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)
> Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct
> current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped
> collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the
> development community over the last eight years.
> Bev Ferrell
> Kobus Kruger
> Richard Pearlstein
> PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to
> share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a
> link to your website for the files.
> We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
> some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to
> those links.
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> --- End forwarded message ---
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