Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev

Expand Messages
  • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
    Phil, IMHO the suggestions you make are very good ideas for any serious community. I ve seen the winding down of a few communities, and usually members are
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Phil, IMHO the suggestions you make are very good ideas for any serious community.

      I've seen the winding down of a few communities, and usually members are allowed to download and keep the archives (to facilitate a migration), or there is a period of existence (while the list or forum is closed) for members to peruse, copy or consult. Different situations, different solutions.

      Re Donald's comments. What is clear is that any community has managers who take the workload (and often the financial load) of running the underlying resource. That does mean there is an ownership issue, but the content's ownership is another matter. Also, ownership and management are different: you may have intellectual rights on the content, but the manager is under no obligation to keep it forever published on their resource.

      Also, the situation in privately owned resources or listservs is very different from "hosted" environments (Yahoo et al) where you can really switch moderators and relieve the old ones of all the pressure.

      Quite a useful subject to consider. Although I dare say very few lists are ready to work out fixed rules for their eventual winding down.

      Best regards,

      Miguel



      ________________________________
      De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Phil Klein
      Enviado el: lunes, 26 de enero de 2009 0:35
      Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
      Asunto: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev


      (...) In other words, if the group had
      continued to be healthy and have the support it needed, the death would not
      have occurred, rather than simply if the leaders had not pulled the switch
      on some kind of community electric chair. Though not usually so
      dramatically, I've seen many online communities implode in a similar
      fashion, when the costs (primarily personally born and rarely if ever
      supported with adequate financial and other compensation to ensure
      reasonable facilitators believe their effort is worth their time, devolution
      to ad hominem and petty complaints as more important than the expressed
      purpose of the group, and other reasons).

      As a result of seeing the demise of various communities, I think of the
      ends or deaths of online communities as a natural event, usually preceded by
      years and months of indicators that all was not well).

      For the CP group, I ask:

      1) Are the suggestions made below or something similar or better
      already in place for the CP list, and provided for most online groups in
      which you participate? If so, what is your preferred template or guidance on
      these?


      (...)


      I suggest all online groups with a repository or collective documents of
      value:

      1) think of this in advance, and envision an exit or archiving strategy
      in the case that current facilitators leave their posts and replacements are
      not readily in place.

      2) provide for a succession strategy for providing a de facto lead or
      facilitator in

      3) create an explicit document ownership protocol that supports the
      survival of valuable group-generated knowledge.

      Best,

      Phil

      From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
      Of Derek Chirnside
      Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:47 PM
      To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW:
      ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev

      >
      > There.
      >
      >
      >
      There ia a lot of history behind this:
      Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500
      http://bdld.blogspot.com/

      A couple of posts seem to go back to 2000
      http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/training_and_development/50221

      Fascinating.

      I personally can't conceive of something to make me kill off and delete
      resources and history in this kind of setting - there are a score of middle
      ways. But others I do know see things differently. Parents angry at kids
      not doing what they are told can merely cut them off and pretend they don't
      exist.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • John D. Smith
      There are a couple of examples of community collapse or end-of-life -- and I think they are worth looking at. A couple that I know of: * A few years ago,
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        There are a couple of examples of community collapse or end-of-life -- and I
        think they are worth looking at. A couple that I know of:

        * A few years ago, ACT-KM found itself closed because a member said he'd sue
        Yahoo! for defamation. It stimulated the community to reorganize, get their
        own platform and continue. I think Nancy White and others used contacts at
        Yahoo to get the archives restored. So the near-death experience was a
        stimulus.

        * Christine Rizzuto and others at IBM looked at some 70 communities that had
        become inactive and published a paper somewhere. As I recall, the fate of
        the community followed the fate of its leader, who was reassigned, moved on,
        left the company or whatever.

        Although it sounds like the death of trdev is unfortunate, I think we need
        to be looking for examples that are "positive" in one way or another. Clay
        Shirky, for example, talks about how open source projects (which always have
        a CoP element) are successful as a whole because individual projects can
        fork or die so easily.

        John
        *
        * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
        * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
        * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
        better!" - Esther Dyson
      • Fred Nickols
        Sorry, y all but I ve been busy and just now got around to checking the CoP posts. I ve been a member of the TRDEV group in three incarnations: (1) the
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 21, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Sorry, y'all but I've been busy and just now got around to checking
          the CoP posts. I've been a member of the TRDEV group in three
          incarnations: (1) the original TRDEV-L list set up by David Passmore,
          (2) its successor, TRDEV on Yahoo (the one recently killed) and (3)
          TRDEV-L (resurrected and also run by David Passmore). The original
          list was "killed" too, because its members' email addresses and
          postings were being "harvested" and made use of elsewhere. The second
          version of TRDEV (on Yahoo) had its problems and I suspect these
          really wore down the moderators/owners. That they destroyed the
          archives is to me an inexcusable breach of professional conduct. This
          is more inexcusable given their insistence that the postings belonged
          to the posters. (Excuse me while I trash your stuff.)

          In the end, TRDEV had about 4.5K members. The resurrected TRDEV-L has
          about 450, roughly 10 percent of the "executed" list.

          If I recall correctly, when TRDEV(1) was shot, TRDEV(2) benefited from
          TRDEV(1)'s mailing list. Somehow, I don't think TRDEV(3) had had the
          same advantage.

          Yet, I'll wager you this: Yahoo still has those TRDEV(2) archives.
          Data doesn't disappear in our modern world. Hmm. I wonder how Yahoo
          would response to a lawsuit? Gee, I guess I'll find out.

          Talk to y'all later :-)

          Regards,

          Fred Nickols
          Cantankerous SOB


          --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, "Verne Morland" <verne@...> wrote:
          >
          > Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
          > TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that
          he and
          > the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full
          message
          > below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
          > group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
          > priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
          > technologies, etc.
          >
          > Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
          > archives.
          >
          > > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have
          been
          > deleted
          > > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
          > >
          > > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
          > correspondence
          > > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
          > alternatives
          > > were explored.
          > >
          > > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
          > blaming and
          > > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
          but then
          > (as we
          > > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
          trdev ever
          > a democracy.
          >
          > I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this.
          To my
          > mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who
          "owns" the
          > archives.
          >
          > These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
          > experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and
          substitute
          > "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
          > decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.
          >
          > As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members.
          It has
          > existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an
          Internet mail
          > list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there
          have
          > been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
          > Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of
          trdev -
          > but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)
          >
          > Thanks and regards,
          > Verne
          >
          > D. Verne Morland
          > Managing Partner
          >
          > ROI Learning Services
          > 624 Enid Avenue
          > Kettering, Ohio 45429
          > Tel: (937) 434-3267
          > Web: www.roi-learning.com
          > Email: verne@...
          >
          > "We put the earn in learning."™
          >
          >
          > --- In trdev@yahoogroups.com, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@> wrote:
          >
          > ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's
          archives
          > have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at
          that time.
          > All and any messages members have received as a result of their
          membership
          > of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
          > messages.
          >
          > We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
          > with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
          > knowledge, and humor.
          >
          > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
          > correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and
          after
          > several alternatives were explored.
          >
          > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
          blaming
          > and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
          but then
          > (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
          trdev
          > ever a democracy.
          >
          > The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
          > Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
          > They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
          > circumstances among the owners and coordinators.
          >
          > Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
          > October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
          > membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages
          to the
          > list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining
          message and
          > topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
          > list.
          >
          > The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the
          background of
          > the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the
          light of
          > the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
          > were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of
          sending
          > a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G
          stage. Over
          > time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away
          at our
          > subscriber base.
          >
          > Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate -
          messages per
          > subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
          > usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common
          complaint
          > of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
          > discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
          > perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider
          culture
          > acting as an immune system.
          >
          > Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to
          move on.
          > Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
          > Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with
          which we
          > view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
          > shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a
          few years
          > ago.
          >
          > During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
          > assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive
          range
          > of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating
          postings
          > to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
          > Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a
          considerable
          > time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to
          quit as
          > active coordinators.
          > Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on
          owners, none
          > of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev. Apart
          from these
          > few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable
          assistance,
          > but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
          > Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
          > Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth
          Tang, Kim
          > Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to
          everyone who
          > served as coordinator.
          >
          > Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev
          was run.
          > Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we
          received,
          > the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
          > picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering
          stewardship of the
          > list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
          > annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
          > managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich
          and Kobus:
          > "Thanks, Bev!"
          >
          > We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
          > hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have
          learned
          > to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
          > things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
          > policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list
          free from
          > partisan interests.
          >
          > No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over
          the list
          > to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
          > carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have
          evolved
          > a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of
          owners
          > take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The
          chances
          > that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
          > just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising
          avenue with a
          > respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
          > unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we
          cannot
          > delay the closure any longer.
          >
          > What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question
          we can
          > only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
          > still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we
          hold no
          > property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
          > anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David
          Passmore,
          > who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)
          >
          > Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct
          trdev? As
          > current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped
          in the
          > collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the
          training and
          > development community over the last eight years.
          >
          > Respectfully,
          > Bev Ferrell
          > Kobus Kruger
          > Richard Pearlstein
          >
          > PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to
          continue to
          > share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a
          direct
          > link to your website for the files.
          >
          > We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
          > some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to
          receive
          > those links.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > --- End forwarded message ---
          >
        • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
          Hi Fred, recovering a Yahoo list s archives when the list owners have killed it and (apparently) destroyed them would be a very interesting feat and a
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 23, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Fred,

            recovering a Yahoo list's archives when the list owners have killed it and (apparently) destroyed them would be a very interesting feat and a tremendous precedent (from the point of view of community-owned IP).

            Do let us know how it goes, or what Yahoo says, please.

            Best regards,

            Miguel

            ________________________________
            De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Fred Nickols
            Enviado el: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2009 1:55
            Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
            Asunto: [cp] Re: The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev


            Sorry, y'all but I've been busy and just now got around to checking
            the CoP posts. I've been a member of the TRDEV group in three
            incarnations: (1) the original TRDEV-L list set up by David Passmore,
            (2) its successor, TRDEV on Yahoo (the one recently killed) and (3)
            TRDEV-L (resurrected and also run by David Passmore). The original
            list was "killed" too, because its members' email addresses and
            postings were being "harvested" and made use of elsewhere. The second
            version of TRDEV (on Yahoo) had its problems and I suspect these
            really wore down the moderators/owners. That they destroyed the
            archives is to me an inexcusable breach of professional conduct. This
            is more inexcusable given their insistence that the postings belonged
            to the posters. (Excuse me while I trash your stuff.)

            In the end, TRDEV had about 4.5K members. The resurrected TRDEV-L has
            about 450, roughly 10 percent of the "executed" list.

            If I recall correctly, when TRDEV(1) was shot, TRDEV(2) benefited from
            TRDEV(1)'s mailing list. Somehow, I don't think TRDEV(3) had had the
            same advantage.

            Yet, I'll wager you this: Yahoo still has those TRDEV(2) archives.
            Data doesn't disappear in our modern world. Hmm. I wonder how Yahoo
            would response to a lawsuit? Gee, I guess I'll find out.

            Talk to y'all later :-)

            Regards,

            Fred Nickols
            Cantankerous SOB

            --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>, "Verne Morland" <verne@...> wrote:
            >
            > Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
            > TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that
            he and
            > the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full
            message
            > below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
            > group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
            > priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
            > technologies, etc.
            >
            > Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
            > archives.
            >
            > > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have
            been
            > deleted
            > > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
            > >
            > > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
            > correspondence
            > > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
            > alternatives
            > > were explored.
            > >
            > > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
            > blaming and
            > > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
            but then
            > (as we
            > > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
            trdev ever
            > a democracy.
            >
            > I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this.
            To my
            > mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who
            "owns" the
            > archives.
            >
            > These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
            > experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and
            substitute
            > "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
            > decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.
            >
            > As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members.
            It has
            > existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an
            Internet mail
            > list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there
            have
            > been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
            > Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of
            trdev -
            > but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)
            >
            > Thanks and regards,
            > Verne
            >
            > D. Verne Morland
            > Managing Partner
            >
            > ROI Learning Services
            > 624 Enid Avenue
            > Kettering, Ohio 45429
            > Tel: (937) 434-3267
            > Web: www.roi-learning.com
            > Email: verne@...
            >
            > "We put the earn in learning."(tm)
            >
            >
            > --- In trdev@yahoogroups.com<mailto:trdev%40yahoogroups.com>, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@> wrote:
            >
            > ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's
            archives
            > have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at
            that time.
            > All and any messages members have received as a result of their
            membership
            > of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
            > messages.
            >
            > We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
            > with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
            > knowledge, and humor.
            >
            > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
            > correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and
            after
            > several alternatives were explored.
            >
            > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
            blaming
            > and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
            but then
            > (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
            trdev
            > ever a democracy.
            >
            > The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
            > Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
            > They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
            > circumstances among the owners and coordinators.
            >
            > Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
            > October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
            > membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages
            to the
            > list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining
            message and
            > topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
            > list.
            >
            > The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the
            background of
            > the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the
            light of
            > the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
            > were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of
            sending
            > a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G
            stage. Over
            > time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away
            at our
            > subscriber base.
            >
            > Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate -
            messages per
            > subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
            > usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common
            complaint
            > of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
            > discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
            > perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider
            culture
            > acting as an immune system.
            >
            > Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to
            move on.
            > Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
            > Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with
            which we
            > view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
            > shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a
            few years
            > ago.
            >
            > During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
            > assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive
            range
            > of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating
            postings
            > to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
            > Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a
            considerable
            > time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to
            quit as
            > active coordinators.
            > Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on
            owners, none
            > of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev. Apart
            from these
            > few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable
            assistance,
            > but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
            > Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
            > Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth
            Tang, Kim
            > Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to
            everyone who
            > served as coordinator.
            >
            > Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev
            was run.
            > Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we
            received,
            > the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
            > picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering
            stewardship of the
            > list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
            > annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
            > managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich
            and Kobus:
            > "Thanks, Bev!"
            >
            > We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
            > hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have
            learned
            > to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
            > things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
            > policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list
            free from
            > partisan interests.
            >
            > No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over
            the list
            > to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
            > carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have
            evolved
            > a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of
            owners
            > take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The
            chances
            > that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
            > just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising
            avenue with a
            > respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
            > unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we
            cannot
            > delay the closure any longer.
            >
            > What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question
            we can
            > only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
            > still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we
            hold no
            > property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
            > anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David
            Passmore,
            > who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)
            >
            > Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct
            trdev? As
            > current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped
            in the
            > collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the
            training and
            > development community over the last eight years.
            >
            > Respectfully,
            > Bev Ferrell
            > Kobus Kruger
            > Richard Pearlstein
            >
            > PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to
            continue to
            > share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a
            direct
            > link to your website for the files.
            >
            > We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
            > some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to
            receive
            > those links.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > --- End forwarded message ---
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.