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Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge

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  • Amy
    The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn t have to stop a community - the same
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 26, 2009
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      The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me
      thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn't have to
      stop a community - the same group of people could start up again
      elsewhere (just move the tent to another location). However the
      archives are indeed lost with the move.

      This brings up an issue I've been grappling with recently: the
      discussion group/KM conundrum. Having worked in this domain for many
      years, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what is said in
      discussion forums should be deleted periodically, and that it's up
      to the forum community to capture the important info (know-how and
      know-who) in another form for ready reference by all members.

      But that doesn't seem to be the situation with the aforementioned
      community, and it's certainly not evolved beyond discussion in the
      groups I work with (in fact, members publish complete solutions out
      to the forums with attachments).

      Email archiving policies (deletion after X number of years) may be
      creating a 'burning platform' to cause companies to look more
      closely at this issue.

      So my questions are:

      -- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits
      of knowledge they produce?
      -- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,
      what?
      -- What has worked for people on these boards?

      Web 2.0 seemed to be getting us to a place where some of this would
      be possible, but I'm afraid that proliferating forums will result in
      bigger dumpsters. I'm ok for occasional dumpster diving but I don't
      want to make a career out of it. And I don't believe that Search
      will ever be good enough to solve this issue.

      Inputs are most welcome. (I'll document the good stuff at the end of
      the discussion.)

      Cheers, Amy P.
    • Donald Clark
      Verne, to add on to my previous post, the choir sang commons, but in the end acted out of their own self-interests. When the original owner got tired of
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 26, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Verne, to add on to my previous post, the choir sang "commons," but
        in the end acted out of their own self-interests. When the original
        owner got tired of running TRDEV, he passed the keys, because his
        espoused theory was the same as his theory-in-use. I find it
        Inimaginable that the present three owners could not find one person,
        out of over 4,000 members*, to pass the keys on to.

        Besides Hardin and Argysis' theories, I also wonder if Harvey's
        Abilene Paradox also played a part in burning down the house.

        *Down to seven members as of this post


        A great run for TRDEV, but a tragic ending,
        Donald Clark

        Knowledge Jump | http://www.knowledgejump.com/






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • John D. Smith
        Re amy s comments about the archives... There s a chapter by Finholdt, T. A., Sproull, L., and Kiesler, S., Outsiders on the Inside: Sharing Know-How Across
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 28, 2009
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          Re amy's comments about the archives...

          There's a chapter by Finholdt, T. A., Sproull, L., and Kiesler, S.,
          "Outsiders on the Inside: Sharing Know-How Across Space and Time," in Hinds,
          Pamela J. and Sara Kiesler (eds), Distributed Work. (Cambridge, MA: MIT
          Press, 2002), pp. 357-380.

          It's "old" but argues that the narrative style of a Q&A database were more
          frequently consulted because they had situated cues that users (especially
          remote ones) found helpful in interpreting technical knowledge that had been
          shared. The Q&A form was MORE useful and MORE USED than the summarized and
          cleaned up stuff provided by the same company in the same general technical
          area (this is all from memory and I tend to simplfy stuff, so you might go
          read it).

          The other source arguing for the long-term utility of list archives (like
          trdev) is Peter G. Kilner PhD Dissertation 2006 "The effects of socially
          relevant representations in content on members’ identities of participation
          and willingness to contribute in distributed communities of practice".
          Again, based on his presentation in CPsquare, people will situate tips and
          suggestions IN PRACTICE, suggest who they are, what level they're working
          on, etc. (and they often can be coaxed to do a better job of it).

          Bottom line: it's a BAD idea to throw away archives.

          ON THE OTHER HAND: CPsquare discussions have been kept for years and years
          and so when new poeple join I shake my head and worry that they'll
          absolutely CHOKE at the volume and complexity. Just don't know.

          John
          *
          * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
          * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
          * “Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
          better!” — Esther Dyson
          -----Original Message-----
          From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Amy
          Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:13 AM
          To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage
          Discussion-Produced Knowledge

          The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me
          thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn't have to
          stop a community - the same group of people could start up again
          elsewhere (just move the tent to another location). However the
          archives are indeed lost with the move.

          This brings up an issue I've been grappling with recently: the
          discussion group/KM conundrum. Having worked in this domain for many
          years, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what is said in
          discussion forums should be deleted periodically, and that it's up
          to the forum community to capture the important info (know-how and
          know-who) in another form for ready reference by all members.

          But that doesn't seem to be the situation with the aforementioned
          community, and it's certainly not evolved beyond discussion in the
          groups I work with (in fact, members publish complete solutions out
          to the forums with attachments).

          Email archiving policies (deletion after X number of years) may be
          creating a 'burning platform' to cause companies to look more
          closely at this issue.

          So my questions are:

          -- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits
          of knowledge they produce?
          -- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,
          what?
          -- What has worked for people on these boards?

          Web 2.0 seemed to be getting us to a place where some of this would
          be possible, but I'm afraid that proliferating forums will result in
          bigger dumpsters. I'm ok for occasional dumpster diving but I don't
          want to make a career out of it. And I don't believe that Search
          will ever be good enough to solve this issue.

          Inputs are most welcome. (I'll document the good stuff at the end of
          the discussion.)

          Cheers, Amy P.



          ------------------------------------

          *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Nancy White
          Great discussion Maybe it is useful to separate the value of archives and the community s sense of attachment to/owner ship of the archives -- even if they are
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 28, 2009
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            Great discussion

            Maybe it is useful to separate the value of archives and the
            community's sense of attachment to/owner ship of the archives -- even
            if they are never used.

            I suspect that only a small percentage of the members (over time)
            would actually use the archives. But because they hold the words of
            members, there may be both individual and collective sense of
            ownership that have little to do with "utility."

            How would they feel if there had simply been a technical catastrophe
            and the archives disappeared? Would the quality and quantity of the
            response be similar or different? Is it that someone (the current
            list owners) took the decision and they had no say in it?

            I don't think we can underestimate the role of emotions as well as
            intellect in communities. ;-)

            That said, think of all the electronic garbage floating around and
            that one of the biggest barriers to knowledge sharing is the
            complaint that "i don't have enough time and there is too much out
            there and not all of it has value to me."

            Damned if you do, damned if you dont!


            At 10:37 AM 1/28/2009, you wrote:
            >Bottom line: it's a BAD idea to throw away archives.
            >
            >ON THE OTHER HAND: CPsquare discussions have been kept for years and years
            >and so when new poeple join I shake my head and worry that they'll
            >absolutely CHOKE at the volume and complexity. Just don't know.


            Nancy White | Full Circle Associates | Connecting communities online
            nancyw@... | +1 206 517 4754 | GMT - 8 |skype - choconancy |
            Twitter NancyWhite
            http://www.fullcirc.com/
          • Nancy White
            ... A community I belong to keeps trying to capture community knowledge distilled from conversations into our wiki. We struggle to find the time/energy to
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 28, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              At 01:25 AM 1/28/2009, you wrote:
              >-- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits
              >of knowledge they produce?

              A community I belong to keeps trying to capture "community knowledge"
              distilled from conversations into our wiki. We struggle to find the
              time/energy to keep it up. It seems we go in cycles where we really
              are doing a great job, and the wiki then attracts new members, and
              other times when the energy to do this lags. (Http://www.km4dev.org/wiki)
              UNDP has a very codified practice of harvesting from very structured
              community discussion lists - a practice they have trained low income
              women to do, by the way, to both save costs and to build
              microbusinesses around the practice, and this has proved to be very
              useful for them.
              <http://www.solutionexchange-un.net.in/en/index.php>http://www.solutionexchange-un.net.in/en/index.php


              In the work I do in international development, the passing of
              stories/info learned on discussion lists into F2F settings seems very
              common - so common no one really notices or nutures it. It just
              happens. Some organizations are blogging to share out (see the ICT-KM
              program of the CGIAR
              <http://ictkm.wordpress.com/>http://ictkm.wordpress.com/ ) This sort
              of blending or, as John Smith likes to call it - straddling across
              technologies -- seems common.

              >-- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,
              >what?
              >-- What has worked for people on these boards?


              Nancy White | Full Circle Associates | Connecting communities online
              nancyw@... | +1 206 517 4754 | GMT - 8 |skype - choconancy |
              Twitter NancyWhite
              http://www.fullcirc.com/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Steve Glovinsky
              Hi Nancy, Steve Glovinsky here, with some elaboration/clarification on your reference to the United Nation s Solution Exchange (I set it up). First, Solution
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 28, 2009
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                Hi Nancy,

                Steve Glovinsky here, with some elaboration/clarification on your reference
                to the United Nation's Solution Exchange (I set it up). First, Solution
                Exchange was very deliberately designed to capture experiential knowledge of
                members of Communities of Practice - we organize members in e-mail
                mailgroups around development topics - work & employment, governance, food &
                nutrition, maternal & child health etc., in support of the Millennium
                Developmen Goals. Our business model combines a CoP with a research
                service, anchored within a UN-sponsored space to give it the impartiality
                that ensures we have the widest range of member perspectives. Members come
                from government, NGOs, research institutes and academia, donors and private
                sector. Each Community - the ones in India are now up around 2-3,000
                members - has one full-time Community facilitator supported by a Research
                Associate. It works quite well as a new role for UN Agencies in the
                countries they work in. The idea of organizing CoPs and putting them to
                work helping each other out has been well received by development
                professionals, and so far we have expanded from India to Bhutan, Thailand
                and Indonesia (Aceh). The main product or our research service is the
                "Consolidated Reply" - a template that synthesizes discussion threads in the
                form of an executive brief and captures the experiences and references
                offered by participants. Our aim is to get all Solution Exchanges using the
                same template so that they can be indexed in a common repository (we are
                currently building) and shared across countries.

                Now, I know our facilitation teams are mostly women and not particularly
                well-paid, but I would not exactly call them "low income women"...

                Steve





                -----Original Message-----
                From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Nancy White
                Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 2:38 AM
                To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage
                Discussion-Produced Knowledge



                At 01:25 AM 1/28/2009, you wrote:
                >-- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits
                >of knowledge they produce?

                A community I belong to keeps trying to capture "community knowledge"
                distilled from conversations into our wiki. We struggle to find the
                time/energy to keep it up. It seems we go in cycles where we really
                are doing a great job, and the wiki then attracts new members, and
                other times when the energy to do this lags. (Http://www.km4dev.
                <Http://www.km4dev.org/wiki> org/wiki)
                UNDP has a very codified practice of harvesting from very structured
                community discussion lists - a practice they have trained low income
                women to do, by the way, to both save costs and to build
                microbusinesses around the practice, and this has proved to be very
                useful for them.
                <http://www.solution <http://www.solutionexchange-un.net.in/en/index.php>
                exchange-un.net.in/en/index.php>http://www.solution
                <http://www.solutionexchange-un.net.in/en/index.php>
                exchange-un.net.in/en/index.php

                In the work I do in international development, the passing of
                stories/info learned on discussion lists into F2F settings seems very
                common - so common no one really notices or nutures it. It just
                happens. Some organizations are blogging to share out (see the ICT-KM
                program of the CGIAR
                <http://ictkm. <http://ictkm.wordpress.com/> wordpress.com/>http://ictkm.
                <http://ictkm.wordpress.com/> wordpress.com/ ) This sort
                of blending or, as John Smith likes to call it - straddling across
                technologies -- seems common.

                >-- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,
                >what?
                >-- What has worked for people on these boards?

                Nancy White | Full Circle Associates | Connecting communities online
                nancyw@fullcirc. <mailto:nancyw%40fullcirc.com> com | +1 206 517 4754 | GMT
                - 8 |skype - choconancy |
                Twitter NancyWhite
                http://www.fullcirc <http://www.fullcirc.com/> .com/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
                Hi Amy, getting people to document at the end of a discussion has always been an uphill struggle. It means collecting, filtering, polishing and publishing the
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 28, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Amy,

                  getting people to document at the end of a discussion has always been an uphill struggle. It means collecting, filtering, polishing and publishing the results... and that can be very tedious and time consuming. Not to mention technically complicated.

                  Since I operate some forums and tend to "harvest" them for guides, articles, and other objects, I've been on the lookout for any solution to minimize the hassle. Not finding any, this last month I've finally implemented a custom-built piece of software that enables the (authorised) user to select the interesting messages within a thread, dump them to the editing environment with a single click, tweak to their heart's desire, and then publish with another click; the system automatically creates the cross-link from the article to the thread and viceversa (for additional comments). No authorisation or login issues, no copy-pasting, no different files. Trials went very well and now we're in real use. Which means some people are using it, so it's working.

                  Of course that's not the whole solution nor will solve the issue of archives. But it's a start.

                  Best regards,

                  Miguel

                  PS - If you happen to use Invision forums and Joomla CMS, and happen to like the idea, let me know :-).


                  ________________________________________
                  De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Amy [amypricetx@...]
                  Enviado el: lunes, 26 de enero de 2009 16:13
                  Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                  Asunto: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge

                  The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me
                  thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn't have to
                  stop a community - the same group of people could start up again
                  elsewhere (just move the tent to another location). However the
                  archives are indeed lost with the move.

                  This brings up an issue I've been grappling with recently: the
                  discussion group/KM conundrum. Having worked in this domain for many
                  years, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what is said in
                  discussion forums should be deleted periodically, and that it's up
                  to the forum community to capture the important info (know-how and
                  know-who) in another form for ready reference by all members.

                  But that doesn't seem to be the situation with the aforementioned
                  community, and it's certainly not evolved beyond discussion in the
                  groups I work with (in fact, members publish complete solutions out
                  to the forums with attachments).

                  Email archiving policies (deletion after X number of years) may be
                  creating a 'burning platform' to cause companies to look more
                  closely at this issue.

                  So my questions are:

                  -- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits
                  of knowledge they produce?
                  -- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,
                  what?
                  -- What has worked for people on these boards?

                  Web 2.0 seemed to be getting us to a place where some of this would
                  be possible, but I'm afraid that proliferating forums will result in
                  bigger dumpsters. I'm ok for occasional dumpster diving but I don't
                  want to make a career out of it. And I don't believe that Search
                  will ever be good enough to solve this issue.

                  Inputs are most welcome. (I'll document the good stuff at the end of
                  the discussion.)

                  Cheers, Amy P.
                • Eric Hoffer
                  Miguel - That sounds like a step toward the Virtual Dynamic Community - or at least the  blogger/commenter tool you and I had swapped emails about some time
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 28, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Miguel - That sounds like a step toward the Virtual Dynamic Community - or at least the  blogger/commenter tool you and I had swapped emails about some time back.  Sounds great.  So does it let you post to multiple destinations at once, so you can respond to all the places from which the discussion elements came - and/or to all the places it could be relevant?
                    Amy - This is not without work, but I've found that when a community maintains a wiki in conjunction with their forum (the operative word being "maintains"), it is ideal for cataloging ideas, discoveries, conclusions, resources - and can be much easier to find things than searching the forum logs/archives (when accessible).  The trick, of course, is getting participation in maintaining the wiki as a resource, and requires a long-term
                    perspective!
                    Eric

                    --- On Wed, 1/28/09, Cornejo Castro, Miguel <miguel.cornejo@...> wrote:
                    From: Cornejo Castro, Miguel <miguel.cornejo@...>
                    Subject: RE: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge
                    To: "com-prac@yahoogroups.com" <com-prac@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2009, 8:33 PM











                    Hi Amy,



                    getting people to document at the end of a discussion has always been an uphill struggle. It means collecting, filtering, polishing and publishing the results... and that can be very tedious and time consuming. Not to mention technically complicated.



                    Since I operate some forums and tend to "harvest" them for guides, articles, and other objects, I've been on the lookout for any solution to minimize the hassle. Not finding any, this last month I've finally implemented a custom-built piece of software that enables the (authorised) user to select the interesting messages within a thread, dump them to the editing environment with a single click, tweak to their heart's desire, and then publish with another click; the system automatically creates the cross-link from the article to the thread and viceversa (for additional comments). No authorisation or login issues, no copy-pasting, no different files. Trials went very well and now we're in real use. Which means some people are using it, so it's working.



                    Of course that's not the whole solution nor will solve the issue of archives. But it's a start.



                    Best regards,



                    Miguel



                    PS - If you happen to use Invision forums and Joomla CMS, and happen to like the idea, let me know :-).



                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _

                    De: com-prac@yahoogroup s.com [com-prac@yahoogroup s.com] En nombre de Amy [amypricetx@sbcgloba l.net]

                    Enviado el: lunes, 26 de enero de 2009 16:13

                    Para: com-prac@yahoogroup s.com

                    Asunto: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge



                    The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me

                    thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn't have to

                    stop a community - the same group of people could start up again

                    elsewhere (just move the tent to another location). However the

                    archives are indeed lost with the move.



                    This brings up an issue I've been grappling with recently: the

                    discussion group/KM conundrum. Having worked in this domain for many

                    years, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what is said in

                    discussion forums should be deleted periodically, and that it's up

                    to the forum community to capture the important info (know-how and

                    know-who) in another form for ready reference by all members.



                    But that doesn't seem to be the situation with the aforementioned

                    community, and it's certainly not evolved beyond discussion in the

                    groups I work with (in fact, members publish complete solutions out

                    to the forums with attachments) .



                    Email archiving policies (deletion after X number of years) may be

                    creating a 'burning platform' to cause companies to look more

                    closely at this issue.



                    So my questions are:



                    -- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits

                    of knowledge they produce?

                    -- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,

                    what?

                    -- What has worked for people on these boards?



                    Web 2.0 seemed to be getting us to a place where some of this would

                    be possible, but I'm afraid that proliferating forums will result in

                    bigger dumpsters. I'm ok for occasional dumpster diving but I don't

                    want to make a career out of it. And I don't believe that Search

                    will ever be good enough to solve this issue.



                    Inputs are most welcome. (I'll document the good stuff at the end of

                    the discussion.)



                    Cheers, Amy P.





























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
                    Hi Eric, I m afraid it s more limited, even if it follows the same idea of unifying the management of the conversation. The only advance in this direction that
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 29, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Eric,

                      I'm afraid it's more limited, even if it follows the same idea of unifying the management of the conversation. The only advance in this direction that this software makes is using the thread (from which we extract the messages to be turned into the article) as the article's comments section.

                      It's just a harvesting tool, really. Makes it easier to gather and shape a formal conclusions document.

                      As for the VDC model, I've been looking into some possibilities that are closer than one'd think. The implementation is still very complex in such a fragmented environment :-) but there's a lot of advance in the right direction.

                      Best regards,

                      Miguel

                      ________________________________________
                      De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Eric Hoffer [erichoffer@...]
                      Enviado el: jueves, 29 de enero de 2009 3:17
                      Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                      Asunto: RE: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge

                      Miguel - That sounds like a step toward the Virtual Dynamic Community - or at least the blogger/commenter tool you and I had swapped emails about some time back. Sounds great. So does it let you post to multiple destinations at once, so you can respond to all the places from which the discussion elements came - and/or to all the places it could be relevant?
                      Amy - This is not without work, but I've found that when a community maintains a wiki in conjunction with their forum (the operative word being "maintains"), it is ideal for cataloging ideas, discoveries, conclusions, resources - and can be much easier to find things than searching the forum logs/archives (when accessible). The trick, of course, is getting participation in maintaining the wiki as a resource, and requires a long-term
                      perspective!
                      Eric

                      --- On Wed, 1/28/09, Cornejo Castro, Miguel <miguel.cornejo@...<mailto:miguel.cornejo%40tecnocom.es>> wrote:
                      From: Cornejo Castro, Miguel <miguel.cornejo@...<mailto:miguel.cornejo%40tecnocom.es>>
                      Subject: RE: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge
                      To: "com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>" <com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>>
                      Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2009, 8:33 PM

                      Hi Amy,

                      getting people to document at the end of a discussion has always been an uphill struggle. It means collecting, filtering, polishing and publishing the results... and that can be very tedious and time consuming. Not to mention technically complicated.

                      Since I operate some forums and tend to "harvest" them for guides, articles, and other objects, I've been on the lookout for any solution to minimize the hassle. Not finding any, this last month I've finally implemented a custom-built piece of software that enables the (authorised) user to select the interesting messages within a thread, dump them to the editing environment with a single click, tweak to their heart's desire, and then publish with another click; the system automatically creates the cross-link from the article to the thread and viceversa (for additional comments). No authorisation or login issues, no copy-pasting, no different files. Trials went very well and now we're in real use. Which means some people are using it, so it's working.

                      Of course that's not the whole solution nor will solve the issue of archives. But it's a start.

                      Best regards,

                      Miguel

                      PS - If you happen to use Invision forums and Joomla CMS, and happen to like the idea, let me know :-).

                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _

                      De: com-prac@yahoogroup s.com [com-prac@yahoogroup s.com] En nombre de Amy [amypricetx@sbcgloba l.net]

                      Enviado el: lunes, 26 de enero de 2009 16:13

                      Para: com-prac@yahoogroup s.com

                      Asunto: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge

                      The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me

                      thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn't have to

                      stop a community - the same group of people could start up again

                      elsewhere (just move the tent to another location). However the

                      archives are indeed lost with the move.

                      This brings up an issue I've been grappling with recently: the

                      discussion group/KM conundrum. Having worked in this domain for many

                      years, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what is said in

                      discussion forums should be deleted periodically, and that it's up

                      to the forum community to capture the important info (know-how and

                      know-who) in another form for ready reference by all members.

                      But that doesn't seem to be the situation with the aforementioned

                      community, and it's certainly not evolved beyond discussion in the

                      groups I work with (in fact, members publish complete solutions out

                      to the forums with attachments) .

                      Email archiving policies (deletion after X number of years) may be

                      creating a 'burning platform' to cause companies to look more

                      closely at this issue.

                      So my questions are:

                      -- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits

                      of knowledge they produce?

                      -- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,

                      what?

                      -- What has worked for people on these boards?

                      Web 2.0 seemed to be getting us to a place where some of this would

                      be possible, but I'm afraid that proliferating forums will result in

                      bigger dumpsters. I'm ok for occasional dumpster diving but I don't

                      want to make a career out of it. And I don't believe that Search

                      will ever be good enough to solve this issue.

                      Inputs are most welcome. (I'll document the good stuff at the end of

                      the discussion.)

                      Cheers, Amy P.











                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Loader, Matt
                      To capture the ‘know-who’ could I propose integrating a social network analysis tool (or the visualization element anyway) with the forum / wiki? This
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 29, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        To capture the ‘know-who’ could I propose integrating a social network analysis tool (or the visualization element anyway) with the forum / wiki? This would be ‘signed in to’ by all forum participants as they join….



                        M





                        Matt Loader

                        ローダー・マッシュー

                        Technology Communications (NTCE)

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                        ________________________________

                        From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Cornejo Castro, Miguel
                        Sent: 29 January 2009 13:15
                        To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge



                        Hi Eric,

                        I'm afraid it's more limited, even if it follows the same idea of unifying the management of the conversation. The only advance in this direction that this software makes is using the thread (from which we extract the messages to be turned into the article) as the article's comments section.

                        It's just a harvesting tool, really. Makes it easier to gather and shape a formal conclusions document.

                        As for the VDC model, I've been looking into some possibilities that are closer than one'd think. The implementation is still very complex in such a fragmented environment :-) but there's a lot of advance in the right direction.

                        Best regards,

                        Miguel

                        ________________________________________
                        De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> [com-prac@yahoogroups.com <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> ] En nombre de Eric Hoffer [erichoffer@... <mailto:erichoffer%40yahoo.com> ]
                        Enviado el: jueves, 29 de enero de 2009 3:17
                        Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Asunto: RE: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge

                        Miguel - That sounds like a step toward the Virtual Dynamic Community - or at least the blogger/commenter tool you and I had swapped emails about some time back. Sounds great. So does it let you post to multiple destinations at once, so you can respond to all the places from which the discussion elements came - and/or to all the places it could be relevant?
                        Amy - This is not without work, but I've found that when a community maintains a wiki in conjunction with their forum (the operative word being "maintains"), it is ideal for cataloging ideas, discoveries, conclusions, resources - and can be much easier to find things than searching the forum logs/archives (when accessible). The trick, of course, is getting participation in maintaining the wiki as a resource, and requires a long-term
                        perspective!
                        Eric

                        --- On Wed, 1/28/09, Cornejo Castro, Miguel <miguel.cornejo@... <mailto:miguel.cornejo%40tecnocom.es> <mailto:miguel.cornejo%40tecnocom.es>> wrote:
                        From: Cornejo Castro, Miguel <miguel.cornejo@... <mailto:miguel.cornejo%40tecnocom.es> <mailto:miguel.cornejo%40tecnocom.es>>
                        Subject: RE: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge
                        To: "com-prac@yahoogroups.com <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>" <com-prac@yahoogroups.com <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        Date: Wednesday, January 28, 2009, 8:33 PM

                        Hi Amy,

                        getting people to document at the end of a discussion has always been an uphill struggle. It means collecting, filtering, polishing and publishing the results... and that can be very tedious and time consuming. Not to mention technically complicated.

                        Since I operate some forums and tend to "harvest" them for guides, articles, and other objects, I've been on the lookout for any solution to minimize the hassle. Not finding any, this last month I've finally implemented a custom-built piece of software that enables the (authorised) user to select the interesting messages within a thread, dump them to the editing environment with a single click, tweak to their heart's desire, and then publish with another click; the system automatically creates the cross-link from the article to the thread and viceversa (for additional comments). No authorisation or login issues, no copy-pasting, no different files. Trials went very well and now we're in real use. Which means some people are using it, so it's working.

                        Of course that's not the whole solution nor will solve the issue of archives. But it's a start.

                        Best regards,

                        Miguel

                        PS - If you happen to use Invision forums and Joomla CMS, and happen to like the idea, let me know :-).

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _

                        De: com-prac@yahoogroup s.com [com-prac@yahoogroup s.com] En nombre de Amy [amypricetx@sbcgloba l.net]

                        Enviado el: lunes, 26 de enero de 2009 16:13

                        Para: com-prac@yahoogroup s.com

                        Asunto: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage Discussion-Produced Knowledge

                        The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me

                        thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn't have to

                        stop a community - the same group of people could start up again

                        elsewhere (just move the tent to another location). However the

                        archives are indeed lost with the move.

                        This brings up an issue I've been grappling with recently: the

                        discussion group/KM conundrum. Having worked in this domain for many

                        years, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what is said in

                        discussion forums should be deleted periodically, and that it's up

                        to the forum community to capture the important info (know-how and

                        know-who) in another form for ready reference by all members.

                        But that doesn't seem to be the situation with the aforementioned

                        community, and it's certainly not evolved beyond discussion in the

                        groups I work with (in fact, members publish complete solutions out

                        to the forums with attachments) .

                        Email archiving policies (deletion after X number of years) may be

                        creating a 'burning platform' to cause companies to look more

                        closely at this issue.

                        So my questions are:

                        -- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits

                        of knowledge they produce?

                        -- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,

                        what?

                        -- What has worked for people on these boards?

                        Web 2.0 seemed to be getting us to a place where some of this would

                        be possible, but I'm afraid that proliferating forums will result in

                        bigger dumpsters. I'm ok for occasional dumpster diving but I don't

                        want to make a career out of it. And I don't believe that Search

                        will ever be good enough to solve this issue.

                        Inputs are most welcome. (I'll document the good stuff at the end of

                        the discussion.)

                        Cheers, Amy P.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • John D. Smith
                        All of the discussion about summarization so far assumes that a community almost exclusively lives on one platform. As Nancy aluded to, I think the reality is
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 29, 2009
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                          All of the discussion about summarization so far assumes that a community
                          almost exclusively lives on one platform. As Nancy aluded to, I think the
                          reality is quite a bit more messy. Note the private emails between Eric
                          Holder and Miguel Cornejo that were mentioend in this thread. We ourselves
                          interact in LOTS of different locations.

                          A key event is when a discussion moves from one platform to another -- you
                          know it's real when the same damn problems (and some interesting alternate
                          solutions) come up in a face-to-face discussion.

                          John
                          *
                          * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                          * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
                          * “Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
                          better!” - Esther Dyson
                        • John D. Smith
                          ... wrote: ... threads in the ... using the ... Sounds interesting, Steve... I wonder if you could point us to an example
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 29, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Glovinsky"
                            <steve.glovinsky@...> wrote:

                            <snip>

                            > The main product or our research service is the
                            > "Consolidated Reply" - a template that synthesizes discussion
                            threads in the
                            > form of an executive brief and captures the experiences and references
                            > offered by participants. Our aim is to get all Solution Exchanges
                            using the
                            > same template so that they can be indexed in a common repository (we are
                            > currently building) and shared across countries.

                            <snip>

                            Sounds interesting, Steve...

                            I wonder if you could point us to an example of either the guidelines
                            or their use? A URL or a file you could share in the com-prac "files
                            area" would be great: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/com-prac/files

                            I think you and Nancy have implicitly brought up the importance of
                            paid staff for the functioning of a community. Anything you might
                            have to say about that would be very interesting, too.

                            John
                            *
                            * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                            * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
                            * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest
                            something better!" — Esther Dyson
                          • Amy
                            John, I really like the Q&A idea (and I ll group FAQ s with this too). One of the topics that comes up again and again is how to get people to read the manual
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 30, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              John,

                              I really like the Q&A idea (and I'll group FAQ's with this too). One
                              of the topics that comes up again and again is how to get people to
                              read the manual (the "RTFM" file for you MIT grads out there). But
                              people don't read manuals to solve a problem (unless desperate); they
                              ask a question. If you look at the online resources available from
                              companies like Microsoft, it's easy to see that this structure is
                              viable and useful for people. I think that MS (and others) do invest
                              time in cleaning up the responses and ensuring their accuracy.

                              As for all of those archives - it's just frightening how much we
                              accumulate. At least with paper, one is motivated to sort through and
                              reduce the volume when it threatens to collapse on your work area or
                              when you have to walk around the stack. Not so with e-files however.
                              Moving platforms and doing backups are about the only time I
                              personally pay attention to this. This is particularly bad for
                              communities, where there are many contributors but no "owners" for the
                              info.

                              There is a discipline needed at the time of creation and/or use. Just
                              like it's necessary to put the dirty dishes in the sink and wash them,
                              so must we be motivated to refine the knowledge at the time of
                              creation/use and add it to a knowledge store in a reusable, accessible
                              format.

                              More comments are always welcome!

                              Cheers, Amy P.


                              --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, "John D. Smith" <john.smith@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Re amy's comments about the archives...
                              >
                              > There's a chapter by Finholdt, T. A., Sproull, L., and Kiesler, S.,
                              > "Outsiders on the Inside: Sharing Know-How Across Space and Time,"
                              in Hinds,
                              > Pamela J. and Sara Kiesler (eds), Distributed Work. (Cambridge, MA: MIT
                              > Press, 2002), pp. 357-380.
                              >
                              > It's "old" but argues that the narrative style of a Q&A database
                              were more
                              > frequently consulted because they had situated cues that users
                              (especially
                              > remote ones) found helpful in interpreting technical knowledge that
                              had been
                              > shared. The Q&A form was MORE useful and MORE USED than the
                              summarized and
                              > cleaned up stuff provided by the same company in the same general
                              technical
                              > area (this is all from memory and I tend to simplfy stuff, so you
                              might go
                              > read it).
                              >
                              > The other source arguing for the long-term utility of list archives
                              (like
                              > trdev) is Peter G. Kilner PhD Dissertation 2006 "The effects of socially
                              > relevant representations in content on members' identities of
                              participation
                              > and willingness to contribute in distributed communities of practice".
                              > Again, based on his presentation in CPsquare, people will situate
                              tips and
                              > suggestions IN PRACTICE, suggest who they are, what level they're
                              working
                              > on, etc. (and they often can be coaxed to do a better job of it).
                              >
                              > Bottom line: it's a BAD idea to throw away archives.
                              >
                              > ON THE OTHER HAND: CPsquare discussions have been kept for years and
                              years
                              > and so when new poeple join I shake my head and worry that they'll
                              > absolutely CHOKE at the volume and complexity. Just don't know.
                              >
                              > John
                              > *
                              > * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                              > * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
                              > * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
                              > better!" — Esther Dyson
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf
                              > Of Amy
                              > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 7:13 AM
                              > To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage
                              > Discussion-Produced Knowledge
                              >
                              > The discussion about the closing of a forum has triggered me
                              > thinking on the KM aspects. Just stopping a forum doesn't have to
                              > stop a community - the same group of people could start up again
                              > elsewhere (just move the tent to another location). However the
                              > archives are indeed lost with the move.
                              >
                              > This brings up an issue I've been grappling with recently: the
                              > discussion group/KM conundrum. Having worked in this domain for many
                              > years, I'm of the opinion that the majority of what is said in
                              > discussion forums should be deleted periodically, and that it's up
                              > to the forum community to capture the important info (know-how and
                              > know-who) in another form for ready reference by all members.
                              >
                              > But that doesn't seem to be the situation with the aforementioned
                              > community, and it's certainly not evolved beyond discussion in the
                              > groups I work with (in fact, members publish complete solutions out
                              > to the forums with attachments).
                              >
                              > Email archiving policies (deletion after X number of years) may be
                              > creating a 'burning platform' to cause companies to look more
                              > closely at this issue.
                              >
                              > So my questions are:
                              >
                              > -- How do we make the leap from forums to preserving the good bits
                              > of knowledge they produce?
                              > -- Do we need better tools, practice/process or both, and if so,
                              > what?
                              > -- What has worked for people on these boards?
                              >
                              > Web 2.0 seemed to be getting us to a place where some of this would
                              > be possible, but I'm afraid that proliferating forums will result in
                              > bigger dumpsters. I'm ok for occasional dumpster diving but I don't
                              > want to make a career out of it. And I don't believe that Search
                              > will ever be good enough to solve this issue.
                              >
                              > Inputs are most welcome. (I'll document the good stuff at the end of
                              > the discussion.)
                              >
                              > Cheers, Amy P.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                            • Steve Glovinsky
                              Done - I ve posted four examples from the four countries we are working in so far. I set them up as pdf files on our site at
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 30, 2009
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                                Done - I've posted four examples from the four countries we are working in
                                so far. I set them up as pdf files on our site at
                                www.solex-un.net/operations/comms_material/solution_exchange-un_consolidated
                                _reply_examples.zip.
                                Think franchise, and you will get the idea.

                                And yes, John, well qualified, well trained, full-time moderators are a key
                                to success. When I present to new groups I am always surprised that so many
                                organizations trying to introduce Communities of Practice miss this point.
                                With our focus on providing a research service this point may be more
                                obvious, and I can see where the more typical discussion groups, not
                                designed to "put their communities to work", would not need to be so labor
                                intensive. But still, serious professional efforts usually need to be
                                professionally managed....

                                Steve

                                (Could I put in a plug? The "franchise" is in need of funds for start-ups.
                                If anyone has or knows of a possible source could they please get in touch?
                                Thanks. S)



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                Of John D. Smith
                                Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 5:53 AM
                                To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage
                                Discussion-Produced Knowledge



                                --- In com-prac@yahoogroup <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> s.com, "Steve
                                Glovinsky"
                                <steve.glovinsky@...> wrote:

                                <snip>

                                > The main product or our research service is the
                                > "Consolidated Reply" - a template that synthesizes discussion
                                threads in the
                                > form of an executive brief and captures the experiences and references
                                > offered by participants. Our aim is to get all Solution Exchanges
                                using the
                                > same template so that they can be indexed in a common repository (we are
                                > currently building) and shared across countries.

                                <snip>

                                Sounds interesting, Steve...

                                I wonder if you could point us to an example of either the guidelines
                                or their use? A URL or a file you could share in the com-prac "files
                                area" would be great: http://groups.
                                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/com-prac/files>
                                yahoo.com/group/com-prac/files

                                I think you and Nancy have implicitly brought up the importance of
                                paid staff for the functioning of a community. Anything you might
                                have to say about that would be very interesting, too.

                                John
                                *
                                * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                                * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learning
                                <http://www.learningAlliances.net> Alliances.net
                                * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest
                                something better!" - Esther Dyson







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John D. Smith
                                Great contribution, Steve! (Here s a tiny URL that s un-folded: http://tinyurl.com/cv4np5 ) Highlights (from the India example) to my eye: * the original (very
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 31, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Great contribution, Steve!

                                  (Here's a tiny URL that's un-folded: http://tinyurl.com/cv4np5 )

                                  Highlights (from the India example) to my eye:

                                  * the original (very compelling) question
                                  * thanks to ALL the contributors
                                  * Overall summary
                                  * Detailed recommendations (from experience of responses)
                                  * Further resources
                                  * Professional contacts
                                  * Creative Commons License at the bottom!
                                  * The india example is NINETEEN PAGES!

                                  Very rich example.

                                  I took a shot at tagging it, which might be a case of the "poor man's
                                  summary": http://delicious.com/smithjd/summaries

                                  Any other comments about these examples, folks?

                                  John
                                  *
                                  * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                                  * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
                                  * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
                                  better!" - Esther Dyson
                                • joitske
                                  Hi Steve, Thanks for these examples, having an example gives you more of an insight that when someone just mentions it! I would like to jump on your expression
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 1, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Steve,

                                    Thanks for these examples, having an example gives you more of an
                                    insight that when someone just mentions it!

                                    I would like to jump on your expression of surprise that
                                    organisations miss the point for the need of facilitation. I have an
                                    experience where we facilitated a community of practice for 2 years
                                    on behalf of two organisations. (you can find the case study here by
                                    the way: http://www.scribd.com/doc/3404250/From-a-meeting-to-a-
                                    community-of-practice) After the facilitators stepped down, the
                                    organisations felt that the community should be able to continue 'on
                                    its own'. I sometimes get the impression that the name community of
                                    practice or network has a false connotation of complete self-
                                    organisation. And self-organisation is fine, but then the value
                                    remains exactly within the small self-organised group. If you want to
                                    make that knowledge and the social capital more widely accessible,
                                    you need the kind of leveraging as you do with the facilitation. So
                                    in the end, the organisations loose out, as the whole thing becomes
                                    more invisible.

                                    I'm very curious to hear other people's experiences how they deal
                                    with this. If they recognize this too. It's like people don't see the
                                    downsides of complete self-organisation?

                                    Cheers, Joitske


                                    --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Glovinsky"
                                    <steve.glovinsky@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Done - I've posted four examples from the four countries we are
                                    working in
                                    > so far. I set them up as pdf files on our site at
                                    > www.solex-un.net/operations/comms_material/solution_exchange-
                                    un_consolidated
                                    > _reply_examples.zip.
                                    > Think franchise, and you will get the idea.
                                    >
                                    > And yes, John, well qualified, well trained, full-time moderators
                                    are a key
                                    > to success. When I present to new groups I am always surprised
                                    that so many
                                    > organizations trying to introduce Communities of Practice miss this
                                    point.
                                    > With our focus on providing a research service this point may be
                                    more
                                    > obvious, and I can see where the more typical discussion groups, not
                                    > designed to "put their communities to work", would not need to be
                                    so labor
                                    > intensive. But still, serious professional efforts usually need to
                                    be
                                    > professionally managed....
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                    > (Could I put in a plug? The "franchise" is in need of funds for
                                    start-ups.
                                    > If anyone has or knows of a possible source could they please get
                                    in touch?
                                    > Thanks. S)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    Behalf
                                    > Of John D. Smith
                                    > Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 5:53 AM
                                    > To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [cp] Forums & KM: What CoP's Should Do to Manage
                                    > Discussion-Produced Knowledge
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In com-prac@yahoogroup <mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    s.com, "Steve
                                    > Glovinsky"
                                    > <steve.glovinsky@> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > <snip>
                                    >
                                    > > The main product or our research service is the
                                    > > "Consolidated Reply" - a template that synthesizes discussion
                                    > threads in the
                                    > > form of an executive brief and captures the experiences and
                                    references
                                    > > offered by participants. Our aim is to get all Solution Exchanges
                                    > using the
                                    > > same template so that they can be indexed in a common repository
                                    (we are
                                    > > currently building) and shared across countries.
                                    >
                                    > <snip>
                                    >
                                    > Sounds interesting, Steve...
                                    >
                                    > I wonder if you could point us to an example of either the
                                    guidelines
                                    > or their use? A URL or a file you could share in the com-prac "files
                                    > area" would be great: http://groups.
                                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/com-prac/files>
                                    > yahoo.com/group/com-prac/files
                                    >
                                    > I think you and Nancy have implicitly brought up the importance of
                                    > paid staff for the functioning of a community. Anything you might
                                    > have to say about that would be very interesting, too.
                                    >
                                    > John
                                    > *
                                    > * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                                    > * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learning
                                    > <http://www.learningAlliances.net> Alliances.net
                                    > * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest
                                    > something better!" - Esther Dyson
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • John D. Smith
                                    This whole discussion could be summarized here: http://cpsquare.org/wiki/index.php?title=Text_Discussions_with_Wikis (We re trying to consolidate a lot of
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 1, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      This whole discussion could be summarized here:

                                      http://cpsquare.org/wiki/index.php?title=Text_Discussions_with_Wikis

                                      (We're trying to consolidate a lot of resources about CoPs from
                                      various locations into one public wiki. ALL com-prac members are
                                      invited to sign-up. Because of the amount of SPAM on an earlier
                                      effort, I'm controlling access in advance: passers-by can't edit, but,
                                      like com-prac, once you've said something useful, you're welcome to
                                      speak up. So, do request an account:

                                      http://cpsquare.org/wiki/index.php?title=Special:RequestAccount

                                      And other useful discussions here on com-prac could be gathered
                                      together there.

                                      John
                                      *
                                      * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                                      * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
                                      * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest
                                      something better!" — Esther Dyson
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