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Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev

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  • Derek Chirnside
    ... There ia a lot of history behind this: Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500 http://bdld.blogspot.com/ A couple of posts seem to
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 24, 2009
      >
      > There.
      >
      >
      >
      There ia a lot of history behind this:
      Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500
      http://bdld.blogspot.com/

      A couple of posts seem to go back to 2000
      http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/training_and_development/50221

      Fascinating.

      I personally can't conceive of something to make me kill off and delete
      resources and history in this kind of setting - there are a score of middle
      ways. But others I do know see things differently. Parents angry at kids
      not doing what they are told can merely cut them off and pretend they don't
      exist.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Derek Chirnside
      Summary: old list (Trdev-L) revitalised to take up some of the slack from list that has been killed (Trdev). ==== I was interested in this since my job has
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 25, 2009
        Summary: old list (Trdev-L) revitalised to take up some of the slack from
        list that has been killed (Trdev).
        ====
        I was interested in this since my job has metamorphosed for a year into
        Training and Development. (Much as I dislike the term training)

        When I tried to look at the list of course I had to join. But they refused
        my request. (Quite logically, as It does die today) (It's not often you
        know about a death in advance)

        Then another e-mail arrived. There is the second list that wound down in
        2000 now winding up. Out of the ashes of a cremation comes something with
        some possibility (maybe) of being revitalised.
        It is not on Yahoo: it's an old list serv. Will be interesting to see how
        it goes without the facuntionalioty of yahoo groups etc.

        It is no doubt sad that the archives have gone. This in my mind points to
        the balance between OWNED and often then foibles, prejudices, biases - but
        also passion and commitment - and a sort of collective model - with a
        different kind of passion, attenuated by the group.



        Here is a clip from the e-mail about Trdev-L:
        ------------------------------------------------
        Dear Former trdev'er, on Yahoo. Trdev Yahoo is closing Jan 26. Subscription
        info/instructions for Trdev-L is found below, which has reopened. Please
        subscribe there.
        If you are interested in a strictly instructional design list, contact Bev
        at phoenixziaco@...
        Thank you for being a member.

        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

        TRDEV-L, the Training Development list, is renewed and running
        officially. TRDEV-L began when the Internet was a child in 1990. TRDEV-
        L has been an "announcement-only" LISTSERV since 13 October 2000.

        TRDEV-L is open and running at this moment as a private, subscriber-
        only LISTSERV offered purely as a gift of the Penn State Net Gods next
        to whom I am merely a hapless, truckling peon.

        There still are 2,703 subscribers to TRDEV-L. If you are not a TRDEV-L
        subscriber and you would like to subscribe, send mail to:
        LISTSERV@...
        and include the following, and only the following, in the body of the
        note: SUBSCRIBE TRDEV-L <your name here>
        where your first and last name is substituted for <your name here>.

        More TRDEV-L resources might become available as the list scales up
        again.

        Here is the "Welcome" file sent to new TRDEV-L subscribers.
        ---------------------------------------
        WELCOME TO:

        TRDEV-L: LISTSERV DISCUSSION GROUP
        FOR TRAINING & DEVELOPMENT

        < MISSION >

        TRDEV-L provides a forum for the exchange of information
        on the training and the development of human resources.
        Training is designed to improved human work performance
        on the job, and development prepares employees to adjust
        and grow with the organization. Training and development
        plays a strategic role in organization performance, and
        human resource professionals have a responsibility to
        explore their field and to expand their knowledge base.
        Participation in activities such as TRDEV-L assist in
        accomplishing this task.

        < DIRECTORY OF IMPORTANT ADDRESSES >

        Subscription, signing off, changing delivery option
        -- LISTSERV@...

        Submission of postings to TRDEV-L
        -- TRDEV-L@...

        Personal mail to TRDEV-L List Owner, David Passmore
        -- dlp@...

        < HISTORY >

        TRDEV-L originally was developed and field-tested through
        a one-year grant from the Technical Foundation of America.
        The $4,797 grant was awarded in 1990 for the development
        and field-testing of a world-wide computer network in trade
        and industrial and technology education. TRDEV-L operates
        using the extensive resources and support provided by Penn
        State's Center for Academic Computing and the Workforce
        Education & Development Program in Penn State's College of
        Education.

        On 13 October 2000, TRDEV-L was converted to an
        "announcement-only" list due to persistent abuse by
        several subscribers as well as lack of support and strong demands
        by Penn State administrators for the lack of revenue production
        by TRDEV-L operations. On 22 January 2009, TRDEV-L resumed
        operations.
        ======================================================
        (End clip)





        2009/1/26 Verne Morland <verne@...>

        > Thank you, John. You're right - the final postings do constitute an
        > interesting snapshot of the final days of TRDEV.
        >
        > Most posters are thanking the moderators and the other members who have
        > shared their knowledge and expertise through their postings over the years.
        > A few have expressed support for the moderators' decision to close the
        > list.
        > And a number of others have expressed emotions ranging from disappointment
        > and resignation to anger and activism over the unilateral decision to close
        > the group and delete the archives.
        >
        > Unfortunately, the exigencies of making a living do not permit me the
        > luxury
        > of collecting and studying the closing messages. Perhaps someone on the
        > com-prac list who has research charter would like to take up this task.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Phil Klein
        I think the TRdev list did not end in an unusual or an uncommon way. I also thing death by execution is not really a fair expression; rather this seems from
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 25, 2009
          I think the TRdev list did not end in an unusual or an uncommon way. I also
          thing "death by execution" is not really a fair expression; rather this
          seems from my limited familiarity like a natural end that many groups
          undergo, often under similar circumstances. In other words, if the group had
          continued to be healthy and have the support it needed, the death would not
          have occurred, rather than simply if the leaders had not pulled the switch
          on some kind of community electric chair. Though not usually so
          dramatically, I've seen many online communities implode in a similar
          fashion, when the costs (primarily personally born and rarely if ever
          supported with adequate financial and other compensation to ensure
          reasonable facilitators believe their effort is worth their time, devolution
          to ad hominem and petty complaints as more important than the expressed
          purpose of the group, and other reasons).

          As a result of seeing the demise of various communities, I think of the
          ends or deaths of online communities as a natural event, usually preceded by
          years and months of indicators that all was not well).



          For the CP group, I ask:

          1) Are the suggestions made below or something similar or better
          already in place for the CP list, and provided for most online groups in
          which you participate? If so, what is your preferred template or guidance on
          these?

          2) How can groups more effectively anticipate and communicate troubles
          before they erupt (or irrupt, to use Jung's beautiful term) and cease like
          the proverbial Norweigian Blue Parrot of Monty Python renown ("he's not
          dead, he's pining, pining for the fjords).

          3) For what set or percentage or kinds of online groups is it important
          to preserve the knowledge beyond 1 year old? (to my mind it's less than 30%)




          I suggest all online groups with a repository or collective documents of
          value:

          1) think of this in advance, and envision an exit or archiving strategy
          in the case that current facilitators leave their posts and replacements are
          not readily in place.

          2) provide for a succession strategy for providing a de facto lead or
          facilitator in

          3) create an explicit document ownership protocol that supports the
          survival of valuable group-generated knowledge.



          Best,

          Phil



          From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Derek Chirnside
          Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:47 PM
          To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW:
          ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev



          >
          > There.
          >
          >
          >
          There ia a lot of history behind this:
          Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500
          http://bdld.blogspot.com/

          A couple of posts seem to go back to 2000
          http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/training_and_development/50221

          Fascinating.

          I personally can't conceive of something to make me kill off and delete
          resources and history in this kind of setting - there are a score of middle
          ways. But others I do know see things differently. Parents angry at kids
          not doing what they are told can merely cut them off and pretend they don't
          exist.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
          Phil, IMHO the suggestions you make are very good ideas for any serious community. I ve seen the winding down of a few communities, and usually members are
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
            Phil, IMHO the suggestions you make are very good ideas for any serious community.

            I've seen the winding down of a few communities, and usually members are allowed to download and keep the archives (to facilitate a migration), or there is a period of existence (while the list or forum is closed) for members to peruse, copy or consult. Different situations, different solutions.

            Re Donald's comments. What is clear is that any community has managers who take the workload (and often the financial load) of running the underlying resource. That does mean there is an ownership issue, but the content's ownership is another matter. Also, ownership and management are different: you may have intellectual rights on the content, but the manager is under no obligation to keep it forever published on their resource.

            Also, the situation in privately owned resources or listservs is very different from "hosted" environments (Yahoo et al) where you can really switch moderators and relieve the old ones of all the pressure.

            Quite a useful subject to consider. Although I dare say very few lists are ready to work out fixed rules for their eventual winding down.

            Best regards,

            Miguel



            ________________________________
            De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Phil Klein
            Enviado el: lunes, 26 de enero de 2009 0:35
            Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
            Asunto: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev


            (...) In other words, if the group had
            continued to be healthy and have the support it needed, the death would not
            have occurred, rather than simply if the leaders had not pulled the switch
            on some kind of community electric chair. Though not usually so
            dramatically, I've seen many online communities implode in a similar
            fashion, when the costs (primarily personally born and rarely if ever
            supported with adequate financial and other compensation to ensure
            reasonable facilitators believe their effort is worth their time, devolution
            to ad hominem and petty complaints as more important than the expressed
            purpose of the group, and other reasons).

            As a result of seeing the demise of various communities, I think of the
            ends or deaths of online communities as a natural event, usually preceded by
            years and months of indicators that all was not well).

            For the CP group, I ask:

            1) Are the suggestions made below or something similar or better
            already in place for the CP list, and provided for most online groups in
            which you participate? If so, what is your preferred template or guidance on
            these?


            (...)


            I suggest all online groups with a repository or collective documents of
            value:

            1) think of this in advance, and envision an exit or archiving strategy
            in the case that current facilitators leave their posts and replacements are
            not readily in place.

            2) provide for a succession strategy for providing a de facto lead or
            facilitator in

            3) create an explicit document ownership protocol that supports the
            survival of valuable group-generated knowledge.

            Best,

            Phil

            From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
            Of Derek Chirnside
            Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:47 PM
            To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW:
            ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev

            >
            > There.
            >
            >
            >
            There ia a lot of history behind this:
            Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500
            http://bdld.blogspot.com/

            A couple of posts seem to go back to 2000
            http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/training_and_development/50221

            Fascinating.

            I personally can't conceive of something to make me kill off and delete
            resources and history in this kind of setting - there are a score of middle
            ways. But others I do know see things differently. Parents angry at kids
            not doing what they are told can merely cut them off and pretend they don't
            exist.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • John D. Smith
            There are a couple of examples of community collapse or end-of-life -- and I think they are worth looking at. A couple that I know of: * A few years ago,
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
              There are a couple of examples of community collapse or end-of-life -- and I
              think they are worth looking at. A couple that I know of:

              * A few years ago, ACT-KM found itself closed because a member said he'd sue
              Yahoo! for defamation. It stimulated the community to reorganize, get their
              own platform and continue. I think Nancy White and others used contacts at
              Yahoo to get the archives restored. So the near-death experience was a
              stimulus.

              * Christine Rizzuto and others at IBM looked at some 70 communities that had
              become inactive and published a paper somewhere. As I recall, the fate of
              the community followed the fate of its leader, who was reassigned, moved on,
              left the company or whatever.

              Although it sounds like the death of trdev is unfortunate, I think we need
              to be looking for examples that are "positive" in one way or another. Clay
              Shirky, for example, talks about how open source projects (which always have
              a CoP element) are successful as a whole because individual projects can
              fork or die so easily.

              John
              *
              * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
              * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
              * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
              better!" - Esther Dyson
            • Fred Nickols
              Sorry, y all but I ve been busy and just now got around to checking the CoP posts. I ve been a member of the TRDEV group in three incarnations: (1) the
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 21, 2009
                Sorry, y'all but I've been busy and just now got around to checking
                the CoP posts. I've been a member of the TRDEV group in three
                incarnations: (1) the original TRDEV-L list set up by David Passmore,
                (2) its successor, TRDEV on Yahoo (the one recently killed) and (3)
                TRDEV-L (resurrected and also run by David Passmore). The original
                list was "killed" too, because its members' email addresses and
                postings were being "harvested" and made use of elsewhere. The second
                version of TRDEV (on Yahoo) had its problems and I suspect these
                really wore down the moderators/owners. That they destroyed the
                archives is to me an inexcusable breach of professional conduct. This
                is more inexcusable given their insistence that the postings belonged
                to the posters. (Excuse me while I trash your stuff.)

                In the end, TRDEV had about 4.5K members. The resurrected TRDEV-L has
                about 450, roughly 10 percent of the "executed" list.

                If I recall correctly, when TRDEV(1) was shot, TRDEV(2) benefited from
                TRDEV(1)'s mailing list. Somehow, I don't think TRDEV(3) had had the
                same advantage.

                Yet, I'll wager you this: Yahoo still has those TRDEV(2) archives.
                Data doesn't disappear in our modern world. Hmm. I wonder how Yahoo
                would response to a lawsuit? Gee, I guess I'll find out.

                Talk to y'all later :-)

                Regards,

                Fred Nickols
                Cantankerous SOB


                --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, "Verne Morland" <verne@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
                > TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that
                he and
                > the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full
                message
                > below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
                > group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
                > priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
                > technologies, etc.
                >
                > Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
                > archives.
                >
                > > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have
                been
                > deleted
                > > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
                > >
                > > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                > correspondence
                > > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
                > alternatives
                > > were explored.
                > >
                > > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                > blaming and
                > > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                but then
                > (as we
                > > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                trdev ever
                > a democracy.
                >
                > I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this.
                To my
                > mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who
                "owns" the
                > archives.
                >
                > These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
                > experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and
                substitute
                > "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
                > decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.
                >
                > As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members.
                It has
                > existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an
                Internet mail
                > list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there
                have
                > been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
                > Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of
                trdev -
                > but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)
                >
                > Thanks and regards,
                > Verne
                >
                > D. Verne Morland
                > Managing Partner
                >
                > ROI Learning Services
                > 624 Enid Avenue
                > Kettering, Ohio 45429
                > Tel: (937) 434-3267
                > Web: www.roi-learning.com
                > Email: verne@...
                >
                > "We put the earn in learning."™
                >
                >
                > --- In trdev@yahoogroups.com, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@> wrote:
                >
                > ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's
                archives
                > have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at
                that time.
                > All and any messages members have received as a result of their
                membership
                > of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
                > messages.
                >
                > We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
                > with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
                > knowledge, and humor.
                >
                > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                > correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and
                after
                > several alternatives were explored.
                >
                > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                blaming
                > and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                but then
                > (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                trdev
                > ever a democracy.
                >
                > The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
                > Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
                > They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
                > circumstances among the owners and coordinators.
                >
                > Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
                > October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
                > membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages
                to the
                > list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining
                message and
                > topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
                > list.
                >
                > The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the
                background of
                > the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the
                light of
                > the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
                > were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of
                sending
                > a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G
                stage. Over
                > time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away
                at our
                > subscriber base.
                >
                > Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate -
                messages per
                > subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
                > usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common
                complaint
                > of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
                > discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
                > perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider
                culture
                > acting as an immune system.
                >
                > Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to
                move on.
                > Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
                > Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with
                which we
                > view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
                > shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a
                few years
                > ago.
                >
                > During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
                > assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive
                range
                > of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating
                postings
                > to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
                > Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a
                considerable
                > time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to
                quit as
                > active coordinators.
                > Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on
                owners, none
                > of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev. Apart
                from these
                > few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable
                assistance,
                > but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
                > Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
                > Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth
                Tang, Kim
                > Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to
                everyone who
                > served as coordinator.
                >
                > Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev
                was run.
                > Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we
                received,
                > the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
                > picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering
                stewardship of the
                > list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
                > annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
                > managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich
                and Kobus:
                > "Thanks, Bev!"
                >
                > We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
                > hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have
                learned
                > to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
                > things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
                > policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list
                free from
                > partisan interests.
                >
                > No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over
                the list
                > to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
                > carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have
                evolved
                > a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of
                owners
                > take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The
                chances
                > that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
                > just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising
                avenue with a
                > respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
                > unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we
                cannot
                > delay the closure any longer.
                >
                > What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question
                we can
                > only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
                > still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we
                hold no
                > property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
                > anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David
                Passmore,
                > who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)
                >
                > Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct
                trdev? As
                > current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped
                in the
                > collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the
                training and
                > development community over the last eight years.
                >
                > Respectfully,
                > Bev Ferrell
                > Kobus Kruger
                > Richard Pearlstein
                >
                > PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to
                continue to
                > share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a
                direct
                > link to your website for the files.
                >
                > We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
                > some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to
                receive
                > those links.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > --- End forwarded message ---
                >
              • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
                Hi Fred, recovering a Yahoo list s archives when the list owners have killed it and (apparently) destroyed them would be a very interesting feat and a
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 23, 2009
                  Hi Fred,

                  recovering a Yahoo list's archives when the list owners have killed it and (apparently) destroyed them would be a very interesting feat and a tremendous precedent (from the point of view of community-owned IP).

                  Do let us know how it goes, or what Yahoo says, please.

                  Best regards,

                  Miguel

                  ________________________________
                  De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Fred Nickols
                  Enviado el: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2009 1:55
                  Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                  Asunto: [cp] Re: The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev


                  Sorry, y'all but I've been busy and just now got around to checking
                  the CoP posts. I've been a member of the TRDEV group in three
                  incarnations: (1) the original TRDEV-L list set up by David Passmore,
                  (2) its successor, TRDEV on Yahoo (the one recently killed) and (3)
                  TRDEV-L (resurrected and also run by David Passmore). The original
                  list was "killed" too, because its members' email addresses and
                  postings were being "harvested" and made use of elsewhere. The second
                  version of TRDEV (on Yahoo) had its problems and I suspect these
                  really wore down the moderators/owners. That they destroyed the
                  archives is to me an inexcusable breach of professional conduct. This
                  is more inexcusable given their insistence that the postings belonged
                  to the posters. (Excuse me while I trash your stuff.)

                  In the end, TRDEV had about 4.5K members. The resurrected TRDEV-L has
                  about 450, roughly 10 percent of the "executed" list.

                  If I recall correctly, when TRDEV(1) was shot, TRDEV(2) benefited from
                  TRDEV(1)'s mailing list. Somehow, I don't think TRDEV(3) had had the
                  same advantage.

                  Yet, I'll wager you this: Yahoo still has those TRDEV(2) archives.
                  Data doesn't disappear in our modern world. Hmm. I wonder how Yahoo
                  would response to a lawsuit? Gee, I guess I'll find out.

                  Talk to y'all later :-)

                  Regards,

                  Fred Nickols
                  Cantankerous SOB

                  --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>, "Verne Morland" <verne@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
                  > TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that
                  he and
                  > the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full
                  message
                  > below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
                  > group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
                  > priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
                  > technologies, etc.
                  >
                  > Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
                  > archives.
                  >
                  > > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have
                  been
                  > deleted
                  > > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
                  > >
                  > > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                  > correspondence
                  > > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
                  > alternatives
                  > > were explored.
                  > >
                  > > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                  > blaming and
                  > > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                  but then
                  > (as we
                  > > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                  trdev ever
                  > a democracy.
                  >
                  > I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this.
                  To my
                  > mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who
                  "owns" the
                  > archives.
                  >
                  > These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
                  > experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and
                  substitute
                  > "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
                  > decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.
                  >
                  > As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members.
                  It has
                  > existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an
                  Internet mail
                  > list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there
                  have
                  > been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
                  > Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of
                  trdev -
                  > but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)
                  >
                  > Thanks and regards,
                  > Verne
                  >
                  > D. Verne Morland
                  > Managing Partner
                  >
                  > ROI Learning Services
                  > 624 Enid Avenue
                  > Kettering, Ohio 45429
                  > Tel: (937) 434-3267
                  > Web: www.roi-learning.com
                  > Email: verne@...
                  >
                  > "We put the earn in learning."(tm)
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In trdev@yahoogroups.com<mailto:trdev%40yahoogroups.com>, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@> wrote:
                  >
                  > ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's
                  archives
                  > have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at
                  that time.
                  > All and any messages members have received as a result of their
                  membership
                  > of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
                  > messages.
                  >
                  > We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
                  > with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
                  > knowledge, and humor.
                  >
                  > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                  > correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and
                  after
                  > several alternatives were explored.
                  >
                  > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                  blaming
                  > and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                  but then
                  > (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                  trdev
                  > ever a democracy.
                  >
                  > The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
                  > Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
                  > They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
                  > circumstances among the owners and coordinators.
                  >
                  > Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
                  > October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
                  > membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages
                  to the
                  > list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining
                  message and
                  > topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
                  > list.
                  >
                  > The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the
                  background of
                  > the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the
                  light of
                  > the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
                  > were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of
                  sending
                  > a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G
                  stage. Over
                  > time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away
                  at our
                  > subscriber base.
                  >
                  > Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate -
                  messages per
                  > subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
                  > usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common
                  complaint
                  > of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
                  > discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
                  > perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider
                  culture
                  > acting as an immune system.
                  >
                  > Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to
                  move on.
                  > Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
                  > Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with
                  which we
                  > view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
                  > shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a
                  few years
                  > ago.
                  >
                  > During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
                  > assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive
                  range
                  > of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating
                  postings
                  > to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
                  > Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a
                  considerable
                  > time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to
                  quit as
                  > active coordinators.
                  > Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on
                  owners, none
                  > of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev. Apart
                  from these
                  > few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable
                  assistance,
                  > but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
                  > Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
                  > Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth
                  Tang, Kim
                  > Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to
                  everyone who
                  > served as coordinator.
                  >
                  > Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev
                  was run.
                  > Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we
                  received,
                  > the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
                  > picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering
                  stewardship of the
                  > list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
                  > annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
                  > managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich
                  and Kobus:
                  > "Thanks, Bev!"
                  >
                  > We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
                  > hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have
                  learned
                  > to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
                  > things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
                  > policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list
                  free from
                  > partisan interests.
                  >
                  > No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over
                  the list
                  > to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
                  > carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have
                  evolved
                  > a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of
                  owners
                  > take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The
                  chances
                  > that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
                  > just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising
                  avenue with a
                  > respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
                  > unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we
                  cannot
                  > delay the closure any longer.
                  >
                  > What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question
                  we can
                  > only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
                  > still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we
                  hold no
                  > property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
                  > anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David
                  Passmore,
                  > who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)
                  >
                  > Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct
                  trdev? As
                  > current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped
                  in the
                  > collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the
                  training and
                  > development community over the last eight years.
                  >
                  > Respectfully,
                  > Bev Ferrell
                  > Kobus Kruger
                  > Richard Pearlstein
                  >
                  > PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to
                  continue to
                  > share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a
                  direct
                  > link to your website for the files.
                  >
                  > We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
                  > some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to
                  receive
                  > those links.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > --- End forwarded message ---
                  >





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