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The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev

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  • Verne Morland
    Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three owners of the TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that he and the other
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 23, 2009
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      Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
      TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that he and
      the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full message
      below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
      group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
      priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
      technologies, etc.

      Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
      archives.

      > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have been
      deleted
      > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
      >
      > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
      correspondence
      > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
      alternatives
      > were explored.
      >
      > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
      blaming and
      > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision, but then
      (as we
      > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was trdev ever
      a democracy.

      I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this. To my
      mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who "owns" the
      archives.

      These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
      experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and substitute
      "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
      decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.

      As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members. It has
      existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an Internet mail
      list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there have
      been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
      Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of trdev -
      but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)

      Thanks and regards,
      Verne

      D. Verne Morland
      Managing Partner

      ROI Learning Services
      624 Enid Avenue
      Kettering, Ohio 45429
      Tel: (937) 434-3267
      Web: www.roi-learning.com
      Email: verne@...

      "We put the earn in learning."™


      --- In trdev@yahoogroups.com, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@...> wrote:

      ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives
      have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at that time.
      All and any messages members have received as a result of their membership
      of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
      messages.

      We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
      with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
      knowledge, and humor.

      This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
      correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and after
      several alternatives were explored.

      Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from blaming
      and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision, but then
      (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was trdev
      ever a democracy.

      The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
      Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
      They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
      circumstances among the owners and coordinators.

      Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
      October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
      membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages to the
      list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining message and
      topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
      list.

      The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the background of
      the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the light of
      the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
      were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of sending
      a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G stage. Over
      time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away at our
      subscriber base.

      Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate - messages per
      subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
      usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common complaint
      of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
      discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
      perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider culture
      acting as an immune system.

      Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to move on.
      Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
      Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with which we
      view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
      shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a few years
      ago.

      During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
      assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive range
      of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating postings
      to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
      Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a considerable
      time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to quit as
      active coordinators.
      Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on owners, none
      of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev. Apart from these
      few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable assistance,
      but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
      Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
      Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth Tang, Kim
      Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to everyone who
      served as coordinator.

      Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev was run.
      Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we received,
      the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
      picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering stewardship of the
      list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
      annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
      managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich and Kobus:
      "Thanks, Bev!"

      We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
      hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have learned
      to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
      things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
      policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list free from
      partisan interests.

      No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over the list
      to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
      carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have evolved
      a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of owners
      take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The chances
      that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
      just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising avenue with a
      respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
      unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we cannot
      delay the closure any longer.

      What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question we can
      only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
      still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we hold no
      property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
      anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David Passmore,
      who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)

      Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct trdev? As
      current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped in the
      collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the training and
      development community over the last eight years.

      Respectfully,
      Bev Ferrell
      Kobus Kruger
      Richard Pearlstein

      PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to continue to
      share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a direct
      link to your website for the files.

      We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
      some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to receive
      those links.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      --- End forwarded message ---
    • John D. Smith
      Sorry your posting was delayed, Verne. First time posts are always moderated no this list. Free to post thereafter. The message from the leaders does seem
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 24, 2009
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        Sorry your posting was delayed, Verne. First time posts are always
        moderated no this list. Free to post thereafter.

        The message from the leaders does seem peculiar, especially deleting the
        archives!

        I think that looking at end-of-life issues for a community is very
        important. Maybe you should gather all the "requiem", RIP messages into a
        case study for com-prac. I see several:

        http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/trdev/

        John
        *
        * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
        * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
        * “Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
        better!” — Esther Dyson
      • Derek Chirnside
        ... There ia a lot of history behind this: Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500 http://bdld.blogspot.com/ A couple of posts seem to
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 24, 2009
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          >
          > There.
          >
          >
          >
          There ia a lot of history behind this:
          Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500
          http://bdld.blogspot.com/

          A couple of posts seem to go back to 2000
          http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/training_and_development/50221

          Fascinating.

          I personally can't conceive of something to make me kill off and delete
          resources and history in this kind of setting - there are a score of middle
          ways. But others I do know see things differently. Parents angry at kids
          not doing what they are told can merely cut them off and pretend they don't
          exist.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Verne Morland
          Thank you, John. You re right - the final postings do constitute an interesting snapshot of the final days of TRDEV. Most posters are thanking the moderators
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 25, 2009
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            Thank you, John. You're right - the final postings do constitute an
            interesting snapshot of the final days of TRDEV.

            Most posters are thanking the moderators and the other members who have
            shared their knowledge and expertise through their postings over the years.
            A few have expressed support for the moderators' decision to close the list.
            And a number of others have expressed emotions ranging from disappointment
            and resignation to anger and activism over the unilateral decision to close
            the group and delete the archives.

            Unfortunately, the exigencies of making a living do not permit me the luxury
            of collecting and studying the closing messages. Perhaps someone on the
            com-prac list who has research charter would like to take up this task.

            Regards,
            Verne

            D. Verne Morland
            Managing Partner

            ROI Learning Services
            624 Enid Avenue
            Kettering, Ohio 45429
            Tel: (937) 434-3267
            Web: <http://www.roi-learning.com/> www.roi-learning.com
            Email: <mailto:verne@...> verne@...

            "We put the earn in learning."T


            _____

            From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of John D. Smith
            Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 6:05 PM
            To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW:
            ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev



            Sorry your posting was delayed, Verne. First time posts are always
            moderated no this list. Free to post thereafter.

            The message from the leaders does seem peculiar, especially deleting the
            archives!

            I think that looking at end-of-life issues for a community is very
            important. Maybe you should gather all the "requiem", RIP messages into a
            case study for com-prac. I see several:

            http://finance. <http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/trdev/>
            groups.yahoo.com/group/trdev/

            John
            *
            * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
            * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learning
            <http://www.learningAlliances.net> Alliances.net
            * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
            better!" - Esther Dyson







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Derek Chirnside
            Summary: old list (Trdev-L) revitalised to take up some of the slack from list that has been killed (Trdev). ==== I was interested in this since my job has
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 25, 2009
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              Summary: old list (Trdev-L) revitalised to take up some of the slack from
              list that has been killed (Trdev).
              ====
              I was interested in this since my job has metamorphosed for a year into
              Training and Development. (Much as I dislike the term training)

              When I tried to look at the list of course I had to join. But they refused
              my request. (Quite logically, as It does die today) (It's not often you
              know about a death in advance)

              Then another e-mail arrived. There is the second list that wound down in
              2000 now winding up. Out of the ashes of a cremation comes something with
              some possibility (maybe) of being revitalised.
              It is not on Yahoo: it's an old list serv. Will be interesting to see how
              it goes without the facuntionalioty of yahoo groups etc.

              It is no doubt sad that the archives have gone. This in my mind points to
              the balance between OWNED and often then foibles, prejudices, biases - but
              also passion and commitment - and a sort of collective model - with a
              different kind of passion, attenuated by the group.



              Here is a clip from the e-mail about Trdev-L:
              ------------------------------------------------
              Dear Former trdev'er, on Yahoo. Trdev Yahoo is closing Jan 26. Subscription
              info/instructions for Trdev-L is found below, which has reopened. Please
              subscribe there.
              If you are interested in a strictly instructional design list, contact Bev
              at phoenixziaco@...
              Thank you for being a member.

              xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

              TRDEV-L, the Training Development list, is renewed and running
              officially. TRDEV-L began when the Internet was a child in 1990. TRDEV-
              L has been an "announcement-only" LISTSERV since 13 October 2000.

              TRDEV-L is open and running at this moment as a private, subscriber-
              only LISTSERV offered purely as a gift of the Penn State Net Gods next
              to whom I am merely a hapless, truckling peon.

              There still are 2,703 subscribers to TRDEV-L. If you are not a TRDEV-L
              subscriber and you would like to subscribe, send mail to:
              LISTSERV@...
              and include the following, and only the following, in the body of the
              note: SUBSCRIBE TRDEV-L <your name here>
              where your first and last name is substituted for <your name here>.

              More TRDEV-L resources might become available as the list scales up
              again.

              Here is the "Welcome" file sent to new TRDEV-L subscribers.
              ---------------------------------------
              WELCOME TO:

              TRDEV-L: LISTSERV DISCUSSION GROUP
              FOR TRAINING & DEVELOPMENT

              < MISSION >

              TRDEV-L provides a forum for the exchange of information
              on the training and the development of human resources.
              Training is designed to improved human work performance
              on the job, and development prepares employees to adjust
              and grow with the organization. Training and development
              plays a strategic role in organization performance, and
              human resource professionals have a responsibility to
              explore their field and to expand their knowledge base.
              Participation in activities such as TRDEV-L assist in
              accomplishing this task.

              < DIRECTORY OF IMPORTANT ADDRESSES >

              Subscription, signing off, changing delivery option
              -- LISTSERV@...

              Submission of postings to TRDEV-L
              -- TRDEV-L@...

              Personal mail to TRDEV-L List Owner, David Passmore
              -- dlp@...

              < HISTORY >

              TRDEV-L originally was developed and field-tested through
              a one-year grant from the Technical Foundation of America.
              The $4,797 grant was awarded in 1990 for the development
              and field-testing of a world-wide computer network in trade
              and industrial and technology education. TRDEV-L operates
              using the extensive resources and support provided by Penn
              State's Center for Academic Computing and the Workforce
              Education & Development Program in Penn State's College of
              Education.

              On 13 October 2000, TRDEV-L was converted to an
              "announcement-only" list due to persistent abuse by
              several subscribers as well as lack of support and strong demands
              by Penn State administrators for the lack of revenue production
              by TRDEV-L operations. On 22 January 2009, TRDEV-L resumed
              operations.
              ======================================================
              (End clip)





              2009/1/26 Verne Morland <verne@...>

              > Thank you, John. You're right - the final postings do constitute an
              > interesting snapshot of the final days of TRDEV.
              >
              > Most posters are thanking the moderators and the other members who have
              > shared their knowledge and expertise through their postings over the years.
              > A few have expressed support for the moderators' decision to close the
              > list.
              > And a number of others have expressed emotions ranging from disappointment
              > and resignation to anger and activism over the unilateral decision to close
              > the group and delete the archives.
              >
              > Unfortunately, the exigencies of making a living do not permit me the
              > luxury
              > of collecting and studying the closing messages. Perhaps someone on the
              > com-prac list who has research charter would like to take up this task.
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Phil Klein
              I think the TRdev list did not end in an unusual or an uncommon way. I also thing death by execution is not really a fair expression; rather this seems from
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 25, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                I think the TRdev list did not end in an unusual or an uncommon way. I also
                thing "death by execution" is not really a fair expression; rather this
                seems from my limited familiarity like a natural end that many groups
                undergo, often under similar circumstances. In other words, if the group had
                continued to be healthy and have the support it needed, the death would not
                have occurred, rather than simply if the leaders had not pulled the switch
                on some kind of community electric chair. Though not usually so
                dramatically, I've seen many online communities implode in a similar
                fashion, when the costs (primarily personally born and rarely if ever
                supported with adequate financial and other compensation to ensure
                reasonable facilitators believe their effort is worth their time, devolution
                to ad hominem and petty complaints as more important than the expressed
                purpose of the group, and other reasons).

                As a result of seeing the demise of various communities, I think of the
                ends or deaths of online communities as a natural event, usually preceded by
                years and months of indicators that all was not well).



                For the CP group, I ask:

                1) Are the suggestions made below or something similar or better
                already in place for the CP list, and provided for most online groups in
                which you participate? If so, what is your preferred template or guidance on
                these?

                2) How can groups more effectively anticipate and communicate troubles
                before they erupt (or irrupt, to use Jung's beautiful term) and cease like
                the proverbial Norweigian Blue Parrot of Monty Python renown ("he's not
                dead, he's pining, pining for the fjords).

                3) For what set or percentage or kinds of online groups is it important
                to preserve the knowledge beyond 1 year old? (to my mind it's less than 30%)




                I suggest all online groups with a repository or collective documents of
                value:

                1) think of this in advance, and envision an exit or archiving strategy
                in the case that current facilitators leave their posts and replacements are
                not readily in place.

                2) provide for a succession strategy for providing a de facto lead or
                facilitator in

                3) create an explicit document ownership protocol that supports the
                survival of valuable group-generated knowledge.



                Best,

                Phil



                From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Derek Chirnside
                Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:47 PM
                To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW:
                ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev



                >
                > There.
                >
                >
                >
                There ia a lot of history behind this:
                Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500
                http://bdld.blogspot.com/

                A couple of posts seem to go back to 2000
                http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/training_and_development/50221

                Fascinating.

                I personally can't conceive of something to make me kill off and delete
                resources and history in this kind of setting - there are a score of middle
                ways. But others I do know see things differently. Parents angry at kids
                not doing what they are told can merely cut them off and pretend they don't
                exist.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
                Phil, IMHO the suggestions you make are very good ideas for any serious community. I ve seen the winding down of a few communities, and usually members are
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Phil, IMHO the suggestions you make are very good ideas for any serious community.

                  I've seen the winding down of a few communities, and usually members are allowed to download and keep the archives (to facilitate a migration), or there is a period of existence (while the list or forum is closed) for members to peruse, copy or consult. Different situations, different solutions.

                  Re Donald's comments. What is clear is that any community has managers who take the workload (and often the financial load) of running the underlying resource. That does mean there is an ownership issue, but the content's ownership is another matter. Also, ownership and management are different: you may have intellectual rights on the content, but the manager is under no obligation to keep it forever published on their resource.

                  Also, the situation in privately owned resources or listservs is very different from "hosted" environments (Yahoo et al) where you can really switch moderators and relieve the old ones of all the pressure.

                  Quite a useful subject to consider. Although I dare say very few lists are ready to work out fixed rules for their eventual winding down.

                  Best regards,

                  Miguel



                  ________________________________
                  De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Phil Klein
                  Enviado el: lunes, 26 de enero de 2009 0:35
                  Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                  Asunto: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev


                  (...) In other words, if the group had
                  continued to be healthy and have the support it needed, the death would not
                  have occurred, rather than simply if the leaders had not pulled the switch
                  on some kind of community electric chair. Though not usually so
                  dramatically, I've seen many online communities implode in a similar
                  fashion, when the costs (primarily personally born and rarely if ever
                  supported with adequate financial and other compensation to ensure
                  reasonable facilitators believe their effort is worth their time, devolution
                  to ad hominem and petty complaints as more important than the expressed
                  purpose of the group, and other reasons).

                  As a result of seeing the demise of various communities, I think of the
                  ends or deaths of online communities as a natural event, usually preceded by
                  years and months of indicators that all was not well).

                  For the CP group, I ask:

                  1) Are the suggestions made below or something similar or better
                  already in place for the CP list, and provided for most online groups in
                  which you participate? If so, what is your preferred template or guidance on
                  these?


                  (...)


                  I suggest all online groups with a repository or collective documents of
                  value:

                  1) think of this in advance, and envision an exit or archiving strategy
                  in the case that current facilitators leave their posts and replacements are
                  not readily in place.

                  2) provide for a succession strategy for providing a de facto lead or
                  facilitator in

                  3) create an explicit document ownership protocol that supports the
                  survival of valuable group-generated knowledge.

                  Best,

                  Phil

                  From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                  Of Derek Chirnside
                  Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 4:47 PM
                  To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [cp] The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW:
                  ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev

                  >
                  > There.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  There ia a lot of history behind this:
                  Stephen Downes: http://www.downes.ca/cgi-bin/page.cgi?post=47500
                  http://bdld.blogspot.com/

                  A couple of posts seem to go back to 2000
                  http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/training_and_development/50221

                  Fascinating.

                  I personally can't conceive of something to make me kill off and delete
                  resources and history in this kind of setting - there are a score of middle
                  ways. But others I do know see things differently. Parents angry at kids
                  not doing what they are told can merely cut them off and pretend they don't
                  exist.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John D. Smith
                  There are a couple of examples of community collapse or end-of-life -- and I think they are worth looking at. A couple that I know of: * A few years ago,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 27, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    There are a couple of examples of community collapse or end-of-life -- and I
                    think they are worth looking at. A couple that I know of:

                    * A few years ago, ACT-KM found itself closed because a member said he'd sue
                    Yahoo! for defamation. It stimulated the community to reorganize, get their
                    own platform and continue. I think Nancy White and others used contacts at
                    Yahoo to get the archives restored. So the near-death experience was a
                    stimulus.

                    * Christine Rizzuto and others at IBM looked at some 70 communities that had
                    become inactive and published a paper somewhere. As I recall, the fate of
                    the community followed the fate of its leader, who was reassigned, moved on,
                    left the company or whatever.

                    Although it sounds like the death of trdev is unfortunate, I think we need
                    to be looking for examples that are "positive" in one way or another. Clay
                    Shirky, for example, talks about how open source projects (which always have
                    a CoP element) are successful as a whole because individual projects can
                    fork or die so easily.

                    John
                    *
                    * John D. Smith ~ Voice: 503.963.8229 ~ Skype: smithjd
                    * Portland, Oregon, USA http://www.learningAlliances.net
                    * "Your responsibility does not end with complaining. Suggest something
                    better!" - Esther Dyson
                  • Fred Nickols
                    Sorry, y all but I ve been busy and just now got around to checking the CoP posts. I ve been a member of the TRDEV group in three incarnations: (1) the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 21, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Sorry, y'all but I've been busy and just now got around to checking
                      the CoP posts. I've been a member of the TRDEV group in three
                      incarnations: (1) the original TRDEV-L list set up by David Passmore,
                      (2) its successor, TRDEV on Yahoo (the one recently killed) and (3)
                      TRDEV-L (resurrected and also run by David Passmore). The original
                      list was "killed" too, because its members' email addresses and
                      postings were being "harvested" and made use of elsewhere. The second
                      version of TRDEV (on Yahoo) had its problems and I suspect these
                      really wore down the moderators/owners. That they destroyed the
                      archives is to me an inexcusable breach of professional conduct. This
                      is more inexcusable given their insistence that the postings belonged
                      to the posters. (Excuse me while I trash your stuff.)

                      In the end, TRDEV had about 4.5K members. The resurrected TRDEV-L has
                      about 450, roughly 10 percent of the "executed" list.

                      If I recall correctly, when TRDEV(1) was shot, TRDEV(2) benefited from
                      TRDEV(1)'s mailing list. Somehow, I don't think TRDEV(3) had had the
                      same advantage.

                      Yet, I'll wager you this: Yahoo still has those TRDEV(2) archives.
                      Data doesn't disappear in our modern world. Hmm. I wonder how Yahoo
                      would response to a lawsuit? Gee, I guess I'll find out.

                      Talk to y'all later :-)

                      Regards,

                      Fred Nickols
                      Cantankerous SOB


                      --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, "Verne Morland" <verne@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
                      > TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that
                      he and
                      > the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full
                      message
                      > below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
                      > group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
                      > priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
                      > technologies, etc.
                      >
                      > Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
                      > archives.
                      >
                      > > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have
                      been
                      > deleted
                      > > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
                      > >
                      > > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                      > correspondence
                      > > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
                      > alternatives
                      > > were explored.
                      > >
                      > > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                      > blaming and
                      > > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                      but then
                      > (as we
                      > > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                      trdev ever
                      > a democracy.
                      >
                      > I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this.
                      To my
                      > mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who
                      "owns" the
                      > archives.
                      >
                      > These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
                      > experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and
                      substitute
                      > "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
                      > decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.
                      >
                      > As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members.
                      It has
                      > existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an
                      Internet mail
                      > list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there
                      have
                      > been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
                      > Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of
                      trdev -
                      > but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)
                      >
                      > Thanks and regards,
                      > Verne
                      >
                      > D. Verne Morland
                      > Managing Partner
                      >
                      > ROI Learning Services
                      > 624 Enid Avenue
                      > Kettering, Ohio 45429
                      > Tel: (937) 434-3267
                      > Web: www.roi-learning.com
                      > Email: verne@...
                      >
                      > "We put the earn in learning."™
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In trdev@yahoogroups.com, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@> wrote:
                      >
                      > ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's
                      archives
                      > have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at
                      that time.
                      > All and any messages members have received as a result of their
                      membership
                      > of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
                      > messages.
                      >
                      > We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
                      > with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
                      > knowledge, and humor.
                      >
                      > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                      > correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and
                      after
                      > several alternatives were explored.
                      >
                      > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                      blaming
                      > and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                      but then
                      > (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                      trdev
                      > ever a democracy.
                      >
                      > The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
                      > Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
                      > They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
                      > circumstances among the owners and coordinators.
                      >
                      > Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
                      > October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
                      > membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages
                      to the
                      > list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining
                      message and
                      > topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
                      > list.
                      >
                      > The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the
                      background of
                      > the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the
                      light of
                      > the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
                      > were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of
                      sending
                      > a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G
                      stage. Over
                      > time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away
                      at our
                      > subscriber base.
                      >
                      > Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate -
                      messages per
                      > subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
                      > usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common
                      complaint
                      > of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
                      > discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
                      > perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider
                      culture
                      > acting as an immune system.
                      >
                      > Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to
                      move on.
                      > Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
                      > Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with
                      which we
                      > view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
                      > shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a
                      few years
                      > ago.
                      >
                      > During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
                      > assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive
                      range
                      > of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating
                      postings
                      > to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
                      > Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a
                      considerable
                      > time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to
                      quit as
                      > active coordinators.
                      > Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on
                      owners, none
                      > of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev. Apart
                      from these
                      > few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable
                      assistance,
                      > but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
                      > Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
                      > Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth
                      Tang, Kim
                      > Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to
                      everyone who
                      > served as coordinator.
                      >
                      > Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev
                      was run.
                      > Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we
                      received,
                      > the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
                      > picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering
                      stewardship of the
                      > list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
                      > annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
                      > managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich
                      and Kobus:
                      > "Thanks, Bev!"
                      >
                      > We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
                      > hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have
                      learned
                      > to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
                      > things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
                      > policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list
                      free from
                      > partisan interests.
                      >
                      > No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over
                      the list
                      > to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
                      > carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have
                      evolved
                      > a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of
                      owners
                      > take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The
                      chances
                      > that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
                      > just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising
                      avenue with a
                      > respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
                      > unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we
                      cannot
                      > delay the closure any longer.
                      >
                      > What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question
                      we can
                      > only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
                      > still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we
                      hold no
                      > property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
                      > anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David
                      Passmore,
                      > who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)
                      >
                      > Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct
                      trdev? As
                      > current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped
                      in the
                      > collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the
                      training and
                      > development community over the last eight years.
                      >
                      > Respectfully,
                      > Bev Ferrell
                      > Kobus Kruger
                      > Richard Pearlstein
                      >
                      > PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to
                      continue to
                      > share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a
                      direct
                      > link to your website for the files.
                      >
                      > We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
                      > some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to
                      receive
                      > those links.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > --- End forwarded message ---
                      >
                    • Cornejo Castro, Miguel
                      Hi Fred, recovering a Yahoo list s archives when the list owners have killed it and (apparently) destroyed them would be a very interesting feat and a
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 23, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Fred,

                        recovering a Yahoo list's archives when the list owners have killed it and (apparently) destroyed them would be a very interesting feat and a tremendous precedent (from the point of view of community-owned IP).

                        Do let us know how it goes, or what Yahoo says, please.

                        Best regards,

                        Miguel

                        ________________________________
                        De: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Fred Nickols
                        Enviado el: domingo, 22 de febrero de 2009 1:55
                        Para: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                        Asunto: [cp] Re: The Death - by Execution - of a Community - FW: ANNOUNCEMENT: The closure of trdev


                        Sorry, y'all but I've been busy and just now got around to checking
                        the CoP posts. I've been a member of the TRDEV group in three
                        incarnations: (1) the original TRDEV-L list set up by David Passmore,
                        (2) its successor, TRDEV on Yahoo (the one recently killed) and (3)
                        TRDEV-L (resurrected and also run by David Passmore). The original
                        list was "killed" too, because its members' email addresses and
                        postings were being "harvested" and made use of elsewhere. The second
                        version of TRDEV (on Yahoo) had its problems and I suspect these
                        really wore down the moderators/owners. That they destroyed the
                        archives is to me an inexcusable breach of professional conduct. This
                        is more inexcusable given their insistence that the postings belonged
                        to the posters. (Excuse me while I trash your stuff.)

                        In the end, TRDEV had about 4.5K members. The resurrected TRDEV-L has
                        about 450, roughly 10 percent of the "executed" list.

                        If I recall correctly, when TRDEV(1) was shot, TRDEV(2) benefited from
                        TRDEV(1)'s mailing list. Somehow, I don't think TRDEV(3) had had the
                        same advantage.

                        Yet, I'll wager you this: Yahoo still has those TRDEV(2) archives.
                        Data doesn't disappear in our modern world. Hmm. I wonder how Yahoo
                        would response to a lawsuit? Gee, I guess I'll find out.

                        Talk to y'all later :-)

                        Regards,

                        Fred Nickols
                        Cantankerous SOB

                        --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com<mailto:com-prac%40yahoogroups.com>, "Verne Morland" <verne@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yesterday, Jan. 22, 2009, Kobus Kruger, one of the three "owners" of the
                        > TRDEV group on Yahoo! wrote to the approximately 4,400 members that
                        he and
                        > the other two owners had decided to terminate the group - see full
                        message
                        > below. In summary, the owners apparently felt that the quality of the
                        > group's discourse had seriously deteriorated, they themselves have other
                        > priorities in their lives, and it is time to move on, embrace new
                        > technologies, etc.
                        >
                        > Here is an excerpt. Note the use of the past tense with respect to the
                        > archives.
                        >
                        > > The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's archives have
                        been
                        > deleted
                        > > and the membership database will be deleted at that time...
                        > >
                        > > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                        > correspondence
                        > > about it. This decision came over several months and after several
                        > alternatives
                        > > were explored.
                        > >
                        > > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                        > blaming and
                        > > second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                        but then
                        > (as we
                        > > have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                        trdev ever
                        > a democracy.
                        >
                        > I'm quite interested to learn what Com-Prac members think of this.
                        To my
                        > mind, the two key issues are: 1) who "owns" the group and 2)who
                        "owns" the
                        > archives.
                        >
                        > These issues can and should be intellectually explored, but as a thought
                        > experiment I encourage each of you to read the message below and
                        substitute
                        > "com-prac" for "trdev." Then ask yourself how you *feel* about the
                        > decision. I'm also interested in your thoughts along those lines.
                        >
                        > As a point of reference, TRDEV currently has about 4,400 members.
                        It has
                        > existed as a Yahoo! Group for 8 years and 4 months and as an
                        Internet mail
                        > list (TRDEV-L) for years before that. During its Yahoo! phase there
                        have
                        > been 33,758 postings. Com-Prac has 1,600 members, is a year older (as a
                        > Yahoo! Group), and has had 8,083 postings (about 1/4th the number of
                        trdev -
                        > but I'm sure of *much* higher quality... ;-)
                        >
                        > Thanks and regards,
                        > Verne
                        >
                        > D. Verne Morland
                        > Managing Partner
                        >
                        > ROI Learning Services
                        > 624 Enid Avenue
                        > Kettering, Ohio 45429
                        > Tel: (937) 434-3267
                        > Web: www.roi-learning.com
                        > Email: verne@...
                        >
                        > "We put the earn in learning."(tm)
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In trdev@yahoogroups.com<mailto:trdev%40yahoogroups.com>, Kobus KRUGER <kobuskr@> wrote:
                        >
                        > ANNOUNCEMENT: The trdev list will close on January 27. The list's
                        archives
                        > have been deleted and the membership database will be deleted at
                        that time.
                        > All and any messages members have received as a result of their
                        membership
                        > of trdev remain copyrighted to the original author or authors of those
                        > messages.
                        >
                        > We appreciate the many participants of this mailing list who have stayed
                        > with us over the years, and have offered generous contributions, advice,
                        > knowledge, and humor.
                        >
                        > This decision is final, and the owners will not enter into any
                        > correspondence about it. This decision came over several months and
                        after
                        > several alternatives were explored.
                        >
                        > Please use the next two days to say your goodbyes and refrain from
                        blaming
                        > and second guessing our decision. It is not a democratic decision,
                        but then
                        > (as we have pointed out several times in the past) neither is or was
                        trdev
                        > ever a democracy.
                        >
                        > The reasons for the unanimous decision by the three current owners (Bev
                        > Ferrell, Kobus Kruger and Rich Pearlstein) are many and varied.
                        > They relate to the continued usefulness of the list and changing
                        > circumstances among the owners and coordinators.
                        >
                        > Since the Yahoo!Groups' incarnation of trdev was started by Doug Max in
                        > October 2000, after the original TRDEV-L closed down, we have built a
                        > membership of about 4,450, who have posted more than 33,700 messages
                        to the
                        > list. An analysis of the recent participation shows a declining
                        message and
                        > topic stream that begs the question of the continuing usefulness of the
                        > list.
                        >
                        > The usefulness of the list must further be seen against the
                        background of
                        > the growth of networking media, as much as it is to be seen in the
                        light of
                        > the economic pressure the economy is under. When the list started, blogs
                        > were in its infancy. Social networking on the net then consisted of
                        sending
                        > a friend an email. Mobile technologies had yet to reach the 3G
                        stage. Over
                        > time these connection technologies matured and steadily chipped away
                        at our
                        > subscriber base.
                        >
                        > Of our current roughly 4K subscribers, the participation rate -
                        messages per
                        > subscriber per year - has also declined, again bringing the question of
                        > usefulness to the fore. Link this to the increasingly more common
                        complaint
                        > of our unsubscribing members, some of them long time participants, that
                        > discussions on trdev are dominated by regular posters. This created the
                        > perception of trdev as a club of insiders, indicative of an insider
                        culture
                        > acting as an immune system.
                        >
                        > Apart of the foregoing we, the owners of the trdev list, need to
                        move on.
                        > Although the theories and practices of Training and Development and
                        > Performance Improvement will always remain part of the lenses with
                        which we
                        > view and understand the world of work, our careers and interests have
                        > shifted and our work-time demands now are vastly different from a
                        few years
                        > ago.
                        >
                        > During the last few years we have made several and repeated appeals for
                        > assistance. Those coordinators who did join us brought an impressive
                        range
                        > of skills and insights to the often thankless task of coordinating
                        postings
                        > to the list. Quite a few of them, such as Paughnee Moore, Don Denier,
                        > Godfrey Parkin, Holly Gaspar and Joy Jacob stuck around for a
                        considerable
                        > time, but eventually life has a way of moving on, and most opted to
                        quit as
                        > active coordinators.
                        > Understandably, with their insight into the list's demands on
                        owners, none
                        > of them were willing to take over the ownership of trdev. Apart
                        from these
                        > few individuals, the other coordinators also rendered valuable
                        assistance,
                        > but moved on when they needed to. The list include the likes of Dave
                        > Ferguson, Gautam Ghosh, Ajit Limaye, Mike Willis, James Morrissey, Mike
                        > Greer, Mike Morrell, B Prem Rao, Karishma Pais, Lucy Ford, Beth
                        Tang, Kim
                        > Melody, Sharlyn Lauby, and Rick Presley. We remain grateful to
                        everyone who
                        > served as coordinator.
                        >
                        > Over the years we have had heaps of praise for the way that trdev
                        was run.
                        > Although the three owners had an equal share of whatever praise we
                        received,
                        > the burden of much of the day-to-day operations of the list was mostly
                        > picked up by Bev. Her care and concern for the unwavering
                        stewardship of the
                        > list and ethical practices of trdev will go down as an exemplar in the
                        > annals of list management. She has given far more time and attention to
                        > managing the list than anyone could have expected. From both Rich
                        and Kobus:
                        > "Thanks, Bev!"
                        >
                        > We also had our share - fair or not, we got it - of negativity and ad
                        > hominem attacks and criticism. It is par for the course, and we have
                        learned
                        > to take the sour with the sweet. Some attacked our stricter positions on
                        > things such as commercial postings and copyright. We believe that our
                        > policies are what kept trdev's ethical profile high and the list
                        free from
                        > partisan interests.
                        >
                        > No doubt you may wonder why we have not opted to simply hand over
                        the list
                        > to a new group of owners and coordinators. We have considered this very
                        > carefully. Whether by default or design, the trdev coordinators have
                        evolved
                        > a unique way of steering and shaping the list. Should a new set of
                        owners
                        > take over, no doubt this sensitive ecology will be disturbed. The
                        chances
                        > that such a change may prove to be toxic is very high. We have more than
                        > just considered it, and have explored a particularly promising
                        avenue with a
                        > respected academic institution. Unfortunately to date this avenue was
                        > unfruitful. Because of personal circumstances among the owners, we
                        cannot
                        > delay the closure any longer.
                        >
                        > What then is next for the loyal trdev subscribers? To that question
                        we can
                        > only say that "trdev is as trdev shall emerge". The internet is big and
                        > still largely free, and although we have immense respect for it, we
                        hold no
                        > property right (intellectual or otherwise) over the trdev franchise. (If
                        > anybody holds such a right, it should be Penn State and Dr David
                        Passmore,
                        > who operated the original TRDEV-L for years.)
                        >
                        > Who knows what will grow from the seeds of the soon-to-be defunct
                        trdev? As
                        > current owners our hope is that whatever emerges, it will be steeped
                        in the
                        > collegial ethos and spirit of what we have tried to provide the
                        training and
                        > development community over the last eight years.
                        >
                        > Respectfully,
                        > Bev Ferrell
                        > Kobus Kruger
                        > Richard Pearlstein
                        >
                        > PS. If you have uploaded files in files section that you wish to
                        continue to
                        > share for the next two days, please let us know and we will post a
                        direct
                        > link to your website for the files.
                        >
                        > We will post links to other groups for the next few days if we can find
                        > some, but please unsubscribe your addresses if you do not wish to
                        receive
                        > those links.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > --- End forwarded message ---
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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