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Re: [cp] re: DiSC profile

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  • Pete Bond
    I would wholeheartedly agree with Liz on this one. ... Much better than Myers-Briggs for creating an easily assimilated language of group dynamics, and CoPs
    Message 1 of 27 , Dec 12, 2005
      I would wholeheartedly agree with Liz on this one.
      >
      > 'The tool is so simple to understand, that people who
      > have been through a DiSC workshop together soon adopt a DiSC-based
      > vocabulary to talk about their communication hurdles.'

      Much better than Myers-Briggs for creating an easily assimilated language of
      group dynamics, and CoPs are groups too (aren't they?) so DISC can be used
      in CoP development as it is applied to 'non-CoPs'.

      peter bond
    • vic uzumeri
      Peter, In comparing MB and DiSC, it strikes me that the sensing/intuitive dimension of MB is not (as?) evident in DiSC. Wouldn t this be an important force in
      Message 2 of 27 , Dec 12, 2005
        Peter,

        In comparing MB and DiSC, it strikes me that the sensing/intuitive
        dimension of MB is not (as?) evident in DiSC. Wouldn't this be an
        important force in a CoP and, if so, is there a way to address it
        through or in conjunction with DiSC?

        Vic Uzumeri

        Pete Bond wrote:
        > I would wholeheartedly agree with Liz on this one.
        >
        >> 'The tool is so simple to understand, that people who
        >> have been through a DiSC workshop together soon adopt a DiSC-based
        >> vocabulary to talk about their communication hurdles.'
        >>
        >
        > Much better than Myers-Briggs for creating an easily assimilated language of
        > group dynamics, and CoPs are groups too (aren't they?) so DISC can be used
        > in CoP development as it is applied to 'non-CoPs'.
        >
        > peter bond
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Pete Bond
        Vic, I agree that the sensing dimension is not so evident in DISC, but I would guess that an experienced practitioner, who will usually be qualified to
        Message 3 of 27 , Dec 12, 2005
          Vic, I agree that the 'sensing' dimension is not so evident in DISC, but I
          would guess that an experienced practitioner, who will usually be qualified
          to administer more than one psychometric instrument (e.g. M-B and DISC,
          Curtin Innovator-adaptor, 16PF , OPQ, and so on) would be able to indicate
          to respondents where their special sensing capacity lies with regard to the
          context in which they would be acting together .

          Although I'm not a psychologist and cannot comment in great depth, I
          understand that DISC and M-B are grounded in different theoretical bases
          and are therefore difficult to compare. After some 20 years of experience
          of using these kinds of instruments (starting as a great cynic), my opinion
          is that DISC has very practical advantages over M-B especially. when it
          comes to its ease of analysis, the ease of giving feedback to respondents,
          and it has a clear theoretical basis which is relatively easy to understand
          and help respondents learn about . With regard to team working, (and to me,
          good teams are CoPs) the Thomas International version of DISC offers a form
          of analysis of a team's strengths and weaknesses which may be tuned
          according to the 'project' phase in which it may find itself. In other
          words, it can help to indicate at which phase the contributions of different
          personalities can be engaged with best effect (taking into account their
          technical competencies). However, this may be a little too mechanical in its
          operation. I think it's probabley best to let personality type come to the
          fore according to the 'fitness' with the situation they each perceive.

          I would say that 'sensing' can take different forms but that these would
          not be different in a CoP as compared to any other kind of grouping. When
          all is said and done, 'CoP' is just a label for kinds of groups that have
          always been with us and are therefore the kinds of social groups that
          behavioural research would have been carried out on 'pre-CoP', so to speak.
          I'm basing this view on a CoP being a true 'social group' and not simply a
          list that someone has labelled a 'community'.

          On the basis that we all have different kinds of situation dependent
          sensitivities, and are therefore open or closed to certain kinds of
          stimulae, which are in turn reflected in the preferences indicated in
          individual DISC profiles, I would venture that DISC is as good as M-B as a
          tool for the analysis of CoP dynamics. And, working within the principles
          and philosophy of CoP, I would encourage group members to experiment with
          the different kinds of tools that are available these days. I would not push
          such tools from the outside (sponsor-side) in.

          Hope this helps Vic.

          peter
        • Simon James
          Very true, provided the organization using it does not use it to coerce their staff to stipulatively defined norms of behaviour. Simon James ... From:
          Message 4 of 27 , Dec 12, 2005
            Very true, provided the organization using it does not use it to coerce
            their staff to stipulatively defined norms of behaviour.

            Simon James

            -----Original Message-----
            From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Pete Bond
            Sent: 12 December 2005 16:25
            To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [cp] re: DiSC profile

            I would wholeheartedly agree with Liz on this one.
            >
            > 'The tool is so simple to understand, that people who
            > have been through a DiSC workshop together soon adopt a DiSC-based
            > vocabulary to talk about their communication hurdles.'

            Much better than Myers-Briggs for creating an easily assimilated language of
            group dynamics, and CoPs are groups too (aren't they?) so DISC can be used
            in CoP development as it is applied to 'non-CoPs'.

            peter bond





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          • Matt Moore
            One solution is to rotate the personality profiling tool used - DISC, MB, Herrmann Brain Model, Nummeogram, etc. The aim is to create group self-awareness.
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 12, 2005
              One solution is to rotate the personality profiling tool used - DISC, MB,
              Herrmann Brain Model, Nummeogram, etc.

              The aim is to create group self-awareness.

              Creating community archetypes is also an interesting technique - and has
              been tried by ACT-KM with some interesting results...




              "Simon James"
              <simon@eastertown
              .net> To
              Sent by: <com-prac@yahoogroups.com>
              com-prac@yahoogro cc
              ups.com
              Subject
              RE: [cp] re: DiSC profile
              13/12/2005 09:38
              AM


              Please respond to
              com-prac






              Very true, provided the organization using it does not use it to coerce
              their staff to stipulatively defined norms of behaviour.

              Simon James

              -----Original Message-----
              From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Pete Bond
              Sent: 12 December 2005 16:25
              To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [cp] re: DiSC profile

              I would wholeheartedly agree with Liz on this one.
              >
              > 'The tool is so simple to understand, that people who
              > have been through a DiSC workshop together soon adopt a DiSC-based
              > vocabulary to talk about their communication hurdles.'

              Much better than Myers-Briggs for creating an easily assimilated language
              of
              group dynamics, and CoPs are groups too (aren't they?) so DISC can be used
              in CoP development as it is applied to 'non-CoPs'.

              peter bond





              *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
              Yahoo! Groups Links








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            • Rosanna Tarsiero
              Peter, You wrote: Much better than Myers-Briggs for creating an easily assimilated language of group dynamics, and CoPs are groups too (aren t they?) so DISC
              Message 6 of 27 , Dec 12, 2005
                Peter,


                You wrote:
                "Much better than Myers-Briggs for creating an easily assimilated language
                of
                group dynamics, and CoPs are groups too (aren't they?) so DISC can be used
                in CoP development as it is applied to 'non-CoPs'.

                Do you know of any study about it????
                Rosanna
              • Pete Bond
                To matt and Simon. A yes to both. its about helping the group to becoming aware of its own dynamics. These tools can be manipulative. Example, (pre cop) I was
                Message 7 of 27 , Dec 13, 2005
                  To matt and Simon. A yes to both. its about helping the group to becoming
                  aware of its own dynamics.

                  These tools can be manipulative. Example, (pre cop) I was once asked to
                  profile everyone in an R&D group so my client could learn to press the
                  'right buttons' of hos 'team'. I did not take the commission.


                  peter
                • Pete Bond
                  To Ros, I rarely have occasion to use DISC these days, and I ve never used it in the context of CoP development, only team development. This was also so long
                  Message 8 of 27 , Dec 13, 2005
                    To Ros, I rarely have occasion to use DISC these days, and I've never used
                    it in the context of CoP development, only 'team' development. This was also
                    so long ago that nothing remains to share. So................

                    To everyone.

                    Could we, in the spirit of becoming more aware of the dynamics of posting
                    behaviour, do a little experiment here. I know my DISC PPA, perhaps others,
                    like Matt, Grace, Liz, and Simon know their's too. If others took up the
                    offers to do profiling perhaps we would have enough to see if a certain type
                    of profile was more likely to post than others.

                    It would be interesting, and maybe a first.
                    --
                    peter
                  • Nancy White
                    ... Well, I ve been through most of the profiling tools. I m ENFP/J on Myers-Briggs I m not sure how to summarize the extensive Belbin Strengths Profile I
                    Message 9 of 27 , Dec 13, 2005
                      At 01:16 PM 12/13/2005, you wrote:
                      >To everyone.
                      >
                      > Could we, in the spirit of becoming more aware of the dynamics of posting
                      >behaviour, do a little experiment here. I know my DISC PPA, perhaps others,
                      >like Matt, Grace, Liz, and Simon know their's too. If others took up the
                      >offers to do profiling perhaps we would have enough to see if a certain type
                      >of profile was more likely to post than others.

                      Well, I've been through most of the profiling tools.

                      I'm ENFP/J on Myers-Briggs

                      I'm not sure how to summarize the extensive Belbin Strengths Profile
                      I have. I think that would bore y'all!

                      On DISC I've tested a number of times and each time it has been a bit
                      different. Hm, am I gaming the system? Most recently it came out
                      5-7-4-2, the persuader pattern . High I.
                      Nancy White - Full Circle Associates - http://www.fullcirc.com - 206-517-4754
                      Blog: http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/onfacblog.htm


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Simon James
                      V High D V High I Medium S Medium C ... From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pete Bond Sent: 13 December 2005 21:16
                      Message 10 of 27 , Dec 13, 2005
                        V High D
                        V High I
                        Medium S
                        Medium C

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: com-prac@yahoogroups.com [mailto:com-prac@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Pete Bond
                        Sent: 13 December 2005 21:16
                        To: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: R: [cp] DiSC profiling- a proposed experiment

                        To Ros, I rarely have occasion to use DISC these days, and I've never used
                        it in the context of CoP development, only 'team' development. This was also
                        so long ago that nothing remains to share. So................

                        To everyone.

                        Could we, in the spirit of becoming more aware of the dynamics of posting
                        behaviour, do a little experiment here. I know my DISC PPA, perhaps others,
                        like Matt, Grace, Liz, and Simon know their's too. If others took up the
                        offers to do profiling perhaps we would have enough to see if a certain type
                        of profile was more likely to post than others.

                        It would be interesting, and maybe a first.
                        --
                        peter








                        *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • David Mould
                        I took mine a few months back, but was under a lot of pressure so this is indicated in the result. Very Very high D Low S Low I Medium C Cheers, David Pete
                        Message 11 of 27 , Dec 13, 2005
                          I took mine a few months back, but was under a lot of pressure so this is indicated in the result.

                          Very Very high D
                          Low S
                          Low I
                          Medium C

                          Cheers,
                          David

                          Pete Bond <plbond@...> wrote: To Ros, I rarely have occasion to use DISC these days, and I've never used
                          it in the context of CoP development, only 'team' development. This was also
                          so long ago that nothing remains to share. So................

                          To everyone.

                          Could we, in the spirit of becoming more aware of the dynamics of posting
                          behaviour, do a little experiment here. I know my DISC PPA, perhaps others,
                          like Matt, Grace, Liz, and Simon know their's too. If others took up the
                          offers to do profiling perhaps we would have enough to see if a certain type
                          of profile was more likely to post than others.

                          It would be interesting, and maybe a first.
                          --
                          peter








                          *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
                          Yahoo! Groups Links











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                        • Matt Moore
                          MBTI: INTP Belbin: Tend towards Plant/Resource Investigator roles. DISC: Hmmm, never done this. I think I score low on all four... Nancy White
                          Message 12 of 27 , Dec 13, 2005
                            MBTI: INTP
                            Belbin: Tend towards Plant/Resource Investigator roles.
                            DISC: Hmmm, never done this. I think I score low on all four...




                            Nancy White
                            <nancyw@fullcirc.
                            com> To
                            Sent by: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                            com-prac@yahoogro cc
                            ups.com
                            Subject
                            Re: R: [cp] DiSC profiling- a
                            14/12/2005 11:32 proposed experiment
                            AM


                            Please respond to
                            com-prac






                            At 01:16 PM 12/13/2005, you wrote:
                            >To everyone.
                            >
                            > Could we, in the spirit of becoming more aware of the dynamics of
                            posting
                            >behaviour, do a little experiment here. I know my DISC PPA, perhaps
                            others,
                            >like Matt, Grace, Liz, and Simon know their's too. If others took up the
                            >offers to do profiling perhaps we would have enough to see if a certain
                            type
                            >of profile was more likely to post than others.

                            Well, I've been through most of the profiling tools.

                            I'm ENFP/J on Myers-Briggs

                            I'm not sure how to summarize the extensive Belbin Strengths Profile
                            I have. I think that would bore y'all!

                            On DISC I've tested a number of times and each time it has been a bit
                            different. Hm, am I gaming the system? Most recently it came out
                            5-7-4-2, the persuader pattern . High I.
                            Nancy White - Full Circle Associates - http://www.fullcirc.com -
                            206-517-4754
                            Blog: http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/onfacblog.htm


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
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                          • matthewkalman
                            Hope you don t mind me jumping in... I m a Myers-Briggs INTJ (possibly turning into an ENTJ). Also an Enneagram 5 (Thinker/Investigator)... Belbin, can t quite
                            Message 13 of 27 , Dec 15, 2005
                              Hope you don't mind me jumping in...

                              I'm a Myers-Briggs INTJ (possibly turning into an ENTJ). Also an
                              Enneagram 5 (Thinker/Investigator)... Belbin, can't quite remember.

                              The Harvard educationalist Prof Robert Kegan made an interesting point
                              in his book "In Over Our Heads - the mental demands of modern life"
                              that personality tests like Myers-Briggs are probably particularly
                              popular these days as they show that everyone has "gifts differing",
                              and are therefore kind of equal, as it were. In the same way that
                              being right-handed, or left-handed are equal.

                              However, when one looks at the fuller picture, it gets more complicated...

                              There are many dimensions of human capacity in which people develop
                              towards greater capacities, complexity, awareness and ability (eg
                              Piaget and beyond).

                              Examples of such dimensions include Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Jane
                              Loevinger's Ego level, Spiral Dynamic's values level, Kohlberg's moral
                              development stages, Torbert's Leadership Development Framework, Elliot
                              Jaques time horizon/cognitive complexity, etc etc.

                              Expecting to fully understand the dynamics of groups, teams, CoPs etc
                              without knowing about at least some of this developmental information
                              is likely to severely limit effectiveness, I suspect.

                              There is even reasonable evidence around that only a small minority of
                              leaders are even actually able to set up effective 'Learning
                              Organisations' - as quite a high level of complexity of
                              thinking/openness etc is needed to be able to do this.


                              Sorry if this muddies the waters a bit...

                              Cheers,

                              Matthew Kalman






                              --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, Matt Moore <matmoore@a...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > MBTI: INTP
                              > Belbin: Tend towards Plant/Resource Investigator roles.
                              > DISC: Hmmm, never done this. I think I score low on all four...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              > Nancy White

                              > <nancyw@fullcirc.

                              > com>
                              To
                              > Sent by: com-prac@yahoogroups.com

                              > com-prac@yahoogro
                              cc
                              > ups.com

                              >
                              Subject
                              > Re: R: [cp] DiSC profiling-
                              a
                              > 14/12/2005 11:32 proposed experiment

                              > AM

                              >

                              >

                              > Please respond to

                              > com-prac

                              >

                              >

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > At 01:16 PM 12/13/2005, you wrote:
                              > >To everyone.
                              > >
                              > > Could we, in the spirit of becoming more aware of the dynamics of
                              > posting
                              > >behaviour, do a little experiment here. I know my DISC PPA, perhaps
                              > others,
                              > >like Matt, Grace, Liz, and Simon know their's too. If others took
                              up the
                              > >offers to do profiling perhaps we would have enough to see if a certain
                              > type
                              > >of profile was more likely to post than others.
                              >
                              > Well, I've been through most of the profiling tools.
                              >
                              > I'm ENFP/J on Myers-Briggs
                              >
                              > I'm not sure how to summarize the extensive Belbin Strengths Profile
                              > I have. I think that would bore y'all!
                              >
                              > On DISC I've tested a number of times and each time it has been a bit
                              > different. Hm, am I gaming the system? Most recently it came out
                              > 5-7-4-2, the persuader pattern . High I.
                              > Nancy White - Full Circle Associates - http://www.fullcirc.com -
                              > 206-517-4754
                              > Blog: http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/onfacblog.htm
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                            • David Meggitt
                              ... complicated... ... Jane ... moral ... Elliot ... etc ... information ... Have found the last few days postings quite fascinating. Matthew s observations
                              Message 14 of 27 , Dec 15, 2005
                                --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, "matthewkalman"
                                <matthewkalman@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hope you don't mind me jumping in...
                                >
                                > ..

                                > However, when one looks at the fuller picture, it gets more
                                complicated...
                                >
                                > There are many dimensions of human capacity in which people develop
                                > towards greater capacities, complexity, awareness and ability (eg
                                > Piaget and beyond).
                                >
                                > Examples of such dimensions include Maslow's hierarchy of needs,
                                Jane
                                > Loevinger's Ego level, Spiral Dynamic's values level, Kohlberg's
                                moral
                                > development stages, Torbert's Leadership Development Framework,
                                Elliot
                                > Jaques time horizon/cognitive complexity, etc etc.
                                >
                                > Expecting to fully understand the dynamics of groups, teams, CoPs
                                etc
                                > without knowing about at least some of this developmental
                                information
                                > is likely to severely limit effectiveness, I suspect.
                                >
                                >...........
                                >
                                > Sorry if this muddies the waters a bit...
                                >
                                > Cheers,
                                >
                                > Matthew Kalman
                                -------------------------------------------------

                                Have found the last few days' postings quite fascinating.

                                Matthew's observations resonate with me, too.

                                To muddy things further, I'm an amphibious Piscean, and can't
                                remember my MB profile. I just adapt to the circumstances /
                                context, have no pride, but driven by a higher purpose, with multi
                                perspectives. Clearly a stereotype.

                                David Meggitt
                              • Matt Moore
                                Matthew, I agree with this. The historical/development dimension is very important and no one likes to be shrunk to a 4-letter summary. I think the profiling
                                Message 15 of 27 , Dec 15, 2005
                                  Matthew,

                                  I agree with this. The historical/development dimension is very important
                                  and no one likes to be shrunk to a 4-letter summary.

                                  I think the profiling tools provide ways of talking about behaviours - but
                                  any responsible use of them requires the waters to be muddied ("do you
                                  always behave the same way?", "what makes each of us unique?")

                                  >Expecting to fully understand the dynamics of groups, teams, CoPs etc
                                  >without knowing about at least some of this developmental information
                                  >is likely to severely limit effectiveness, I suspect.

                                  Exactly - which is why techniques around telling/retelling group narratives
                                  become important...

                                  Matt




                                  "matthewkalman"
                                  <matthewkalman@ya
                                  hoo.com> To
                                  Sent by: com-prac@yahoogroups.com
                                  com-prac@yahoogro cc
                                  ups.com
                                  Subject
                                  Re: R: [cp] DiSC profiling-
                                  16/12/2005 12:32 limitations of personality typing?
                                  AM


                                  Please respond to
                                  com-prac






                                  Hope you don't mind me jumping in...

                                  I'm a Myers-Briggs INTJ (possibly turning into an ENTJ). Also an
                                  Enneagram 5 (Thinker/Investigator)... Belbin, can't quite remember.

                                  The Harvard educationalist Prof Robert Kegan made an interesting point
                                  in his book "In Over Our Heads - the mental demands of modern life"
                                  that personality tests like Myers-Briggs are probably particularly
                                  popular these days as they show that everyone has "gifts differing",
                                  and are therefore kind of equal, as it were. In the same way that
                                  being right-handed, or left-handed are equal.

                                  However, when one looks at the fuller picture, it gets more complicated...

                                  There are many dimensions of human capacity in which people develop
                                  towards greater capacities, complexity, awareness and ability (eg
                                  Piaget and beyond).

                                  Examples of such dimensions include Maslow's hierarchy of needs, Jane
                                  Loevinger's Ego level, Spiral Dynamic's values level, Kohlberg's moral
                                  development stages, Torbert's Leadership Development Framework, Elliot
                                  Jaques time horizon/cognitive complexity, etc etc.

                                  Expecting to fully understand the dynamics of groups, teams, CoPs etc
                                  without knowing about at least some of this developmental information
                                  is likely to severely limit effectiveness, I suspect.

                                  There is even reasonable evidence around that only a small minority of
                                  leaders are even actually able to set up effective 'Learning
                                  Organisations' - as quite a high level of complexity of
                                  thinking/openness etc is needed to be able to do this.


                                  Sorry if this muddies the waters a bit...

                                  Cheers,

                                  Matthew Kalman






                                  --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, Matt Moore <matmoore@a...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > MBTI: INTP
                                  > Belbin: Tend towards Plant/Resource Investigator roles.
                                  > DISC: Hmmm, never done this. I think I score low on all four...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  > Nancy White

                                  > <nancyw@fullcirc.

                                  > com>
                                  To
                                  > Sent by: com-prac@yahoogroups.com

                                  > com-prac@yahoogro
                                  cc
                                  > ups.com

                                  >
                                  Subject
                                  > Re: R: [cp] DiSC profiling-
                                  a
                                  > 14/12/2005 11:32 proposed experiment

                                  > AM

                                  >

                                  >

                                  > Please respond to

                                  > com-prac

                                  >

                                  >

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > At 01:16 PM 12/13/2005, you wrote:
                                  > >To everyone.
                                  > >
                                  > > Could we, in the spirit of becoming more aware of the dynamics of
                                  > posting
                                  > >behaviour, do a little experiment here. I know my DISC PPA, perhaps
                                  > others,
                                  > >like Matt, Grace, Liz, and Simon know their's too. If others took
                                  up the
                                  > >offers to do profiling perhaps we would have enough to see if a certain
                                  > type
                                  > >of profile was more likely to post than others.
                                  >
                                  > Well, I've been through most of the profiling tools.
                                  >
                                  > I'm ENFP/J on Myers-Briggs
                                  >
                                  > I'm not sure how to summarize the extensive Belbin Strengths Profile
                                  > I have. I think that would bore y'all!
                                  >
                                  > On DISC I've tested a number of times and each time it has been a bit
                                  > different. Hm, am I gaming the system? Most recently it came out
                                  > 5-7-4-2, the persuader pattern . High I.
                                  > Nancy White - Full Circle Associates - http://www.fullcirc.com -
                                  > 206-517-4754
                                  > Blog: http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/onfacblog.htm
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >







                                  *-- The email forum on communities of practice --*
                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Pete Bond
                                  Yep, you re definitely a stereotype, David. By the way, I m a scorpio, on the cusp (almost a sagittarian). I can t remember my MBT either but I m trying to
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Dec 16, 2005
                                    Yep, you're definitely a stereotype, David.

                                    By the way, I'm a scorpio, on the cusp (almost a sagittarian). I can't
                                    remember my MBT either but I'm trying to find it out.
                                    --
                                    peter
                                  • Pete Bond
                                    Mathew, I don t think you re muddying the waters. You re absolutely right, And wow! It s been a while since I saw reference to Eliot Jaques, Torbert, and
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Dec 16, 2005
                                      Mathew, I don't think you're muddying the waters. You're absolutely right,
                                      And wow! It's been a while since I saw reference to Eliot Jaques, Torbert,
                                      and Loevinger's Ego levels, all in the one place. Each provide interesting
                                      perspectives on the way organisations 'might' work. Which takes me back to
                                      Matt's point. They just provide insights that others thought were useful.
                                      Don't take them as right or wrong. They're interesting, they can be fun to
                                      use, they can break the ice, they can also threaten the hell out of some
                                      people. But that's where sensitive facilitation comes in, which in turn
                                      requires good knowledge of these sorts of toolsand where they come from.


                                      peter
                                    • matthewkalman
                                      Hi Pete, Funnily enough Prof Bill Torbert seems to be getting interested in Social Network Analysis and - of course - how it might relate to the developmental
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Dec 19, 2005
                                        Hi Pete,

                                        Funnily enough Prof Bill Torbert seems to be getting interested in
                                        Social Network Analysis and - of course - how it might relate to the
                                        developmental levels in individuals and organisations.

                                        In fact, I think I saw Steve Borgatti's name mentioned as having these
                                        same interests (as well as two of Steve and Bill's students) - and
                                        didn't I just see Steve's name here too? Must go back and have a look...

                                        Torbert's claim that only a small number of leaders have 'action
                                        logics' that are complex enough to be able and willing to set up true
                                        'Learning Organizations' certainly makes me wonder what a social
                                        network analysis of an org with a leader at that level would look
                                        like, and how it would compare with one led by a less rare leader.

                                        I like Rob Cross' work around mapping the energy network in
                                        organisations; who are the energisers and who are the de-energisers.

                                        Hopefully someone will be working on all this, some day soon....

                                        And Pete, if you ever happen to spot any mentions of Torbert,
                                        Loevinger, Jaques all in one place, do let me know... ; -)

                                        Jaques, from what I remember really can't stand personality type
                                        approaches in organisations, as he claims that we're all on a
                                        pre-determined (but unequal, yikes!) path of growing capability.
                                        Personality type simply overlooks this true explanation. Oh, and most
                                        of us are either in over our heads or in under our heads in our work
                                        roles, says Elliot. And so we're miserable. And our organisations are
                                        usually dysfunctional. Challenging, for sure!

                                        Cheers,

                                        Matthew

                                        --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bond <plbond@p...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Mathew, I don't think you're muddying the waters. You're absolutely
                                        right,
                                        > And wow! It's been a while since I saw reference to Eliot Jaques,
                                        Torbert,
                                        > and Loevinger's Ego levels, all in the one place. Each provide
                                        interesting
                                        > perspectives on the way organisations 'might' work. Which takes me
                                        back to
                                        > Matt's point. They just provide insights that others thought were
                                        useful.
                                        > Don't take them as right or wrong. They're interesting, they can be
                                        fun to
                                        > use, they can break the ice, they can also threaten the hell out of some
                                        > people. But that's where sensitive facilitation comes in, which in turn
                                        > requires good knowledge of these sorts of toolsand where they come from.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > peter
                                        >
                                      • Pete Bond
                                        Hi Mathew, Yes! SNA + Jaques Requisite organisation theory + Torbert s Ego development perspectives could be an interesting area to explore. Add Maturana and
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Dec 21, 2005
                                          Hi Mathew, Yes! SNA + Jaques Requisite organisation theory + Torbert's Ego
                                          development perspectives could be an interesting area to explore. Add
                                          Maturana and Varela, especially the emotioning conversational stuff, and we
                                          would have a very interesting mix indeed. Thanks for bringing Jaques and
                                          Torbert back into my thoughts.

                                          Except in your posting, I've never seen these 'theorists' together. Some
                                          years ago, however, I developed an 'executive' style course about leading
                                          and managing, and I did manage to combine them as a set of 'leading edge'
                                          (in 1997/8 or thereabouts) theories. First came Jaques, then came Torbert,
                                          who provided the link to ego development. I saw a link between the stages of
                                          ego development as interpreted by Torbert and what Jaques was saying in
                                          Requisite Organisation about matching problem solving/decisionmaking
                                          aptitudes with places in the organisational hierarchy (strata). I then gave
                                          into the temptation of comparing (in a discussion forum) DISC/MBTI and the
                                          categories provided by Torbert (strategist, diplomat, magician.... - all I
                                          can recall now) and Jaques. It was an interesting exercise at the time, but
                                          I never really developed anything from it.

                                          I noted what you said about Jaques attitude to psychometrics but were you
                                          aware that Brunel University developed a sort of 'categories' inventory so
                                          that companies could identify the stratum at which the employees and
                                          prospective employees would be most effective? Looked and felt like
                                          psychometrics to me, a real parlour game. Maybe Dr Jaques disapproved of it
                                          too.

                                          With respect to the work of Rob Cross. I attended a presentation by him at
                                          one of John Maloney's KM cluster events on SNA and immediately my thoughts
                                          turned to how complementary his ideas were to those of Humberto Maturana on
                                          how relationships-connections develop in the first place. Must read his
                                          books.

                                          In respect of energising, the idea of 'influencers', came up in a very
                                          recent conversation we had with a UK engineering company interested in
                                          CoPs, They had identified the presence of 'influencers' who I would describe
                                          as follows: people in the organisation who can inject 'positive' energy into
                                          networks of conversation (in this case about establishing CoPs), and those
                                          who have the effect of drawing energy out, with a subsequent loss of
                                          enthusiasm and initiative momentum. In this case, there appeared to be too
                                          many of the latter. Being a company that takes a 'scientific' (some might
                                          judge a psuedo-scientific) approach to HRD, every employee had been
                                          psychometrically profiled and a pattern had been recognised between positive
                                          and negative 'influencers'. The negative influencers seem to be high S, high
                                          C people (DISC) , the kind one might expect to see in
                                          technical/engineering/programmer roles, which of course dominated the
                                          organisation. Maybe Jaques stratum II people. Maybe the positive influencers
                                          are potential Stratum IV or greater and are trying to lift themselves up
                                          into a position of greater influence. Who knows? Perhaps I'll find out next
                                          year.

                                          Cheers for now and, if you celebrate it, happy Christmas, if not happy
                                          holyday.


                                          peter
                                        • David Meggitt
                                          ... Torbert s Ego..... ... were you ... inventory so ... and ... disapproved of it ... For an elegant treatment of the theoretical constructs proposed by
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Dec 21, 2005
                                            --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bond <plbond@p...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Mathew, Yes! SNA + Jaques Requisite organisation theory +
                                            Torbert's Ego.....
                                            .................
                                            > I noted what you said about Jaques attitude to psychometrics but
                                            were you
                                            > aware that Brunel University developed a sort of 'categories'
                                            inventory so
                                            > that companies could identify the stratum at which the employees
                                            and
                                            > prospective employees would be most effective? Looked and felt like
                                            > psychometrics to me, a real parlour game. Maybe Dr Jaques
                                            disapproved of it
                                            > too...................


                                            > In respect of energising, .....inject 'positive' energy into
                                            > networks of conversation ..Peter

                                            For an elegant treatment of the "theoretical constructs" proposed by
                                            such riters refer to "The Knowledge Revolution" by Verna (Allee). I
                                            was so moved by this that an inevitable mind map ensued! You can see
                                            the result at URL: http://www.vernaallee.com/primary%
                                            20pages/meggitt.htm

                                            Verna remarks on Jacques as suggesting that ownership of a
                                            particular
                                            level (of knowledge et al) should reside in a particular function.
                                            With the move to networked organisations and self managed teams
                                            there is a trend towards shared responsibilities and cross
                                            functional management. See also a splendid book by Luc Hoebeke
                                            (Making work systems better - a practitioner's reflections). In this
                                            he links 7 strata to 4 recursive levels / domains, each with their
                                            own time spans and interconnections. Marc van Clief is applying this
                                            to remuneration of
                                            CEO's and incurring the wrath of the remuneration consultancy
                                            industry.
                                            ------
                                            I love Peter's reference to injecting energy into networked
                                            conversations. Well worth pursuing IMHO. It may also be of interest
                                            that the APM and PMI (project management associations) have launched
                                            a "Discovery Project" exploring in depth the human and
                                            organisational factors that impinge on project success. Results out
                                            in 6 months or so.
                                            Regards...David Meggitt
                                          • Pete Bond
                                            Thanks David, I ve downloaded your diagram and will also be taking a closer look at the other interesting connections. Don t forget to give us a shout when the
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 22, 2005
                                              Thanks David, I've downloaded your diagram and will also be taking a closer
                                              look at the other interesting connections. Don't forget to give us a shout
                                              when the Project managment project report comes out.

                                              A happy christmas to you.

                                              peter
                                            • Pete Bond
                                              Sorry folks, I have to report back a failure on this experiment. Just thought I d go through them and I found that I could not use the DISC results from Nancy,
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Dec 22, 2005
                                                Sorry folks, I have to report back a failure on this experiment.

                                                Just thought I'd go through them and I found that I could not use the DISC
                                                results from Nancy, Simon, or David. The latter two being because I can't
                                                use the terms 'medium'. DISC scores are either low or high . If you have the
                                                scores for the "how you see yourself" graph (graph III), as Nancy provided,
                                                it would be useful.

                                                Giving DISC figures the way Nancy did it was the best way to do this,
                                                but........

                                                Nancy, I'm not sure whether your figures indicate any negative numbers. Is
                                                your score +5, +7, -4, -2? (I use the Thomas International version so may be
                                                different to the one you used- not sure about other systems)


                                                Otherwise there are insufficient respondents to provide a pattern of data.


                                                Peter HiD, higher I, Lo S, Lower C. ENTP
                                                Nancy ENFP/J
                                                Ros ENTJ (fieldmarshall)
                                                Simon VHiD , VHiI, Med S Med C
                                                David VVHiD, LoS, LoI, Med C
                                                Matt INTP
                                                --
                                                Don't let this little disappointment spoil your christmas time holidays
                                                (even if its your summer).

                                                See you next year.

                                                peter
                                              • matthewkalman
                                                Hi Peter and David, Great to hear your further thoughts on Jaques, Torbert, SNA and related stuff. (Must check back on what high C, high S stands for in the
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jan 3, 2006
                                                  Hi Peter and David,

                                                  Great to hear your further thoughts on Jaques, Torbert, SNA and
                                                  related stuff. (Must check back on what high C, high S stands for in
                                                  the DISC system - I'm more au fait with Myers-Briggs...)

                                                  I liked Torbert's point that people with high level 'action logics'
                                                  (stratum?) will end up leading, whatever their official position in
                                                  the organisational hierarchy. (Or perhaps just try to lead - some orgs
                                                  certainly don't encourage such initiative. Torbert's latest book
                                                  "Action Inquiry - the secret of timely and transforming leadership" is
                                                  a great summary of his work, if you want to catch up. Or there was a
                                                  great Harvard Business Review article last year).

                                                  Can you perhaps remember, Peter, what the Brunel University inventory
                                                  was called that identified strata levels?

                                                  Thought you might enjoy this hard-to-believe "Requisite
                                                  Organisation"-related fact from Art Kleiner: "there's a European
                                                  investment firm that predicts its share values by evaluating the
                                                  strata of various CEOs. But like many Jaques-influenced business
                                                  groups, it doesn't advertise its method."

                                                  Gosh!

                                                  http://www.well.com/user/art/s+b12001cm.html

                                                  Luc Hoebeke's work certainly sounds interesting - and I've been
                                                  meaning to check out Verna Allee's 'The Knowledge Revolution",
                                                  particularly if that was the one that was influenced by Ken
                                                  Wilber-derived developmental view (which I find very useful in making
                                                  sense of things).

                                                  http://www.well.com/user/art/s+b12001cm.html

                                                  While it's not as pretty as David's mind map, I produced a graphic
                                                  which is my own attempt to map a whole disparate bunch of of KM, CoPs
                                                  and library concepts/thinkers onto Traditional/Modern/Postmodern
                                                  levels and I/We/It/Its domains (ie cultural, systems, behavioural etc)

                                                  Torbert is in there, Myers-Briggs, double-loop learning, systems
                                                  theory, Argyris, Senge, Wilber et al.

                                                  Take a look, if you have a moment - love to hear your feedback on
                                                  whether it works, in your view. What to add? Where does it fall down?
                                                  (It's only a first attempt...)

                                                  http://www.cilip.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/79E2CA41-E053-4B92-8F8F-60681C2095D6/0/LibrariesIntegral.jpg

                                                  Along similar lines, I helped in some work with Henley Management
                                                  College trying to bring an 'Integral' approach to KM. Maybe we bit off
                                                  more than we could chew - we certainly had to limit our scope - but
                                                  someone needs to start calling time on fragmentary and partial
                                                  approaches that prevail at the moment, right ;-)

                                                  That report ('Towards Integral Culture Change Initiatives to Support
                                                  Knowledge Management') is here:

                                                  http://www.integraldevelopment.com/resources_articles.html

                                                  Cheers,

                                                  Matthew

                                                  --- In com-prac@yahoogroups.com, Pete Bond <plbond@p...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi Mathew, Yes! SNA + Jaques Requisite organisation theory +
                                                  Torbert's Ego
                                                  > development perspectives could be an interesting area to explore. Add
                                                  > Maturana and Varela, especially the emotioning conversational stuff,
                                                  and we
                                                  > would have a very interesting mix indeed. Thanks for bringing Jaques and
                                                  > Torbert back into my thoughts.
                                                  >
                                                  > Except in your posting, I've never seen these 'theorists' together. Some
                                                  > years ago, however, I developed an 'executive' style course about
                                                  leading
                                                  > and managing, and I did manage to combine them as a set of 'leading
                                                  edge'
                                                  > (in 1997/8 or thereabouts) theories. First came Jaques, then came
                                                  Torbert,
                                                  > who provided the link to ego development. I saw a link between the
                                                  stages of
                                                  > ego development as interpreted by Torbert and what Jaques was saying in
                                                  > Requisite Organisation about matching problem solving/decisionmaking
                                                  > aptitudes with places in the organisational hierarchy (strata). I
                                                  then gave
                                                  > into the temptation of comparing (in a discussion forum) DISC/MBTI
                                                  and the
                                                  > categories provided by Torbert (strategist, diplomat, magician.... -
                                                  all I
                                                  > can recall now) and Jaques. It was an interesting exercise at the
                                                  time, but
                                                  > I never really developed anything from it.
                                                  >
                                                  > I noted what you said about Jaques attitude to psychometrics but
                                                  were you
                                                  > aware that Brunel University developed a sort of 'categories'
                                                  inventory so
                                                  > that companies could identify the stratum at which the employees and
                                                  > prospective employees would be most effective? Looked and felt like
                                                  > psychometrics to me, a real parlour game. Maybe Dr Jaques
                                                  disapproved of it
                                                  > too.
                                                  >
                                                  > With respect to the work of Rob Cross. I attended a presentation by
                                                  him at
                                                  > one of John Maloney's KM cluster events on SNA and immediately my
                                                  thoughts
                                                  > turned to how complementary his ideas were to those of Humberto
                                                  Maturana on
                                                  > how relationships-connections develop in the first place. Must read his
                                                  > books.
                                                  >
                                                  > In respect of energising, the idea of 'influencers', came up in a very
                                                  > recent conversation we had with a UK engineering company interested in
                                                  > CoPs, They had identified the presence of 'influencers' who I would
                                                  describe
                                                  > as follows: people in the organisation who can inject 'positive'
                                                  energy into
                                                  > networks of conversation (in this case about establishing CoPs), and
                                                  those
                                                  > who have the effect of drawing energy out, with a subsequent loss of
                                                  > enthusiasm and initiative momentum. In this case, there appeared to
                                                  be too
                                                  > many of the latter. Being a company that takes a 'scientific' (some
                                                  might
                                                  > judge a psuedo-scientific) approach to HRD, every employee had been
                                                  > psychometrically profiled and a pattern had been recognised between
                                                  positive
                                                  > and negative 'influencers'. The negative influencers seem to be high
                                                  S, high
                                                  > C people (DISC) , the kind one might expect to see in
                                                  > technical/engineering/programmer roles, which of course dominated the
                                                  > organisation. Maybe Jaques stratum II people. Maybe the positive
                                                  influencers
                                                  > are potential Stratum IV or greater and are trying to lift
                                                  themselves up
                                                  > into a position of greater influence. Who knows? Perhaps I'll find
                                                  out next
                                                  > year.
                                                  >
                                                  > Cheers for now and, if you celebrate it, happy Christmas, if not happy
                                                  > holyday.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > peter
                                                  >
                                                • Pete Bond
                                                  Thanks Mathew, I had already come across the Art Kleiner link but not the others so thanks for them (Henley stuff looks interesting). I have looked at the
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jan 5, 2006
                                                    Thanks Mathew, I had already come across the Art Kleiner link but not the
                                                    others so thanks for them (Henley stuff looks interesting). I have looked at
                                                    the diagram but studied only briefly. I will get back to you.

                                                    Have you any objection to taking this conversation off-line?
                                                    --
                                                    peter
                                                  • Seth
                                                    I ve always thought of collaboration as a core human competency. Recently I ve come to think and feel that I am a part of a group of people with the singular
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Mar 4, 2006
                                                      I've always thought of collaboration as a core human competency.
                                                      Recently I've come to think and feel that I am a part of a group of
                                                      people with the singular trait that we cross geopolitical,
                                                      socioeconomic, and organizational boundaries to think, work, or make art
                                                      together. I call us the collaboratioNation.

                                                      We humans have this great capacity to do cool things together regardless
                                                      of the various compartments we find ourselves in. I'm going to be
                                                      looking around for evidence of this and putting it in this blog,
                                                      collaboratioNation.com. I hope you'll stop by for a read, and drop me
                                                      some comments. I'd love to hear your perspective, given your interest
                                                      and leadership in CoPs.

                                                      best,
                                                      Seth

                                                      Seth Kahan

                                                      Accelerating Positive Change
                                                      (301) 229-2221
                                                      Executive Strategy Consultant
                                                      Conference Keynote Speaker
                                                      Visit www.sethkahan.com to learn more.
                                                    • Seth
                                                      http://collaboratioNation.com The url! Seth Seth Kahan Accelerating Positive Change (301) 229-2221 Executive Strategy Consultant Conference Keynote Speaker
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Mar 4, 2006
                                                        http://collaboratioNation.com

                                                        The url!

                                                        Seth

                                                        Seth Kahan
                                                        Accelerating Positive Change
                                                        (301) 229-2221
                                                        Executive Strategy Consultant
                                                        Conference Keynote Speaker
                                                        Visit www.sethkahan.com to learn more.
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