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Running rigging

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  • Larry Pisani
    Hi folks, I m a newbie here trying to get his Columbia 22 in the water before July 4th. I d like to replace the running rinning while the mast is horizontal.
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 14, 2014
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      Hi folks,
       
      I'm a newbie here trying to get his Columbia 22 in the water before July 4th.  I'd like to replace the running rinning while the mast is horizontal.  The current mainsail halyard has a sheathing tear about 2 feet long, but it's a line/cable hybrid.  The guy at West Marine said I have to replace it with the same, but I'm thinking if the sheaves can handle 5/16 line, why can't I just replace it with just regular halyard line? (It's a 1970 hull and I'm trying to keep costs down, of course.
       
      Thoughts?
       
      Thanks,
      Larry
    • cjecje1
      That s what I would do - use a synthetic halyard and eliminate the wire altogether. And on a 22 boat 1/4 main halyard is likely plenty strong. Do you have
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 14, 2014
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        That's what I would do - use a synthetic halyard and eliminate the wire altogether. And on a 22' boat 1/4" main halyard is likely plenty strong. Do you have a winch for the main?

        stephen
        -----------


        On Jun 14, 2014, at 8:57 AM, Larry Pisani larry.pisani@... [columbiasailingyachts] wrote:


        Hi folks,

        I'm a newbie here trying to get his Columbia 22 in the water before July 4th. I'd like to replace the running rinning while the mast is horizontal. The current mainsail halyard has a sheathing tear about 2 feet long, but it's a line/cable hybrid. The guy at West Marine said I have to replace it with the same, but I'm thinking if the sheaves can handle 5/16 line, why can't I just replace it with just regular halyard line? (It's a 1970 hull and I'm trying to keep costs down, of course.

        Thoughts?

        Thanks,
        Larry
      • cchl74
        If the sheaves will take the line, why not? Most of the early Columbiae were set up for spliced wire/rope halyards. This combines the non-stretch qualities of
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 14, 2014
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          If the sheaves will take the line, why not? Most of the early Columbiae were set up for spliced wire/rope halyards. This combines the non-stretch qualities of steel cable with the easy to handle qualities of rope. The sheaves are set up with a groove for the wire and the halyard is locked in. The rope part will not pass through the sheave and the shackle on the wire will not go the other way. Many owners have since swapped out the sheaves to take rope. If you have the sheaves for it, you can use rope. If you do go with line, I think that it is worth the money to go with a low-stretch braid like a Dyneema or V-100 for a halyard.

                Bruce K
                Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                Los Lunas, NM  



          Hi folks,
           
          I'm a newbie here trying to get his Columbia 22 in the water before July 4th.  I'd like to replace the running rinning while the mast is horizontal.  The current mainsail halyard has a sheathing tear about 2 feet long, but it's a line/cable hybrid.  The guy at West Marine said I have to replace it with the same, but I'm thinking if the sheaves can handle 5/16 line, why can't I just replace it with just regular halyard line? (It's a 1970 hull and I'm trying to keep costs down, of course.
           
          Thoughts?
           
          Thanks,
          Larry

        • Jim Muri
          Low stretch nylon would work fine, Larry.  You ll probably have to replace it in about 25 years, though.  Or not.     James R. Muri Novelist, Sailor
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 14, 2014
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            Low stretch nylon would work fine, Larry.  You'll probably have to replace it in about 25 years, though.  Or not.  <G>
             
            James R. Muri

            Novelist, Sailor
            BUY: My e-Novels at Amazon or my book site.
            VISIT: My Literary site.  
            READ: My blog

            From: "Larry Pisani larry.pisani@... [columbiasailingyachts]" <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com>
            To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2014 5:57 AM
            Subject: CYOA - Running rigging

             
            Hi folks,
             
            I'm a newbie here trying to get his Columbia 22 in the water before July 4th.  I'd like to replace the running rinning while the mast is horizontal.  The current mainsail halyard has a sheathing tear about 2 feet long, but it's a line/cable hybrid.  The guy at West Marine said I have to replace it with the same, but I'm thinking if the sheaves can handle 5/16 line, why can't I just replace it with just regular halyard line? (It's a 1970 hull and I'm trying to keep costs down, of course.
             
            Thoughts?
             
            Thanks,
            Larry


          • patn44
            you can replace with low stretch, high teck line easily. I ve done that on my Col. 8.7 and works just fine. Didn t have to change the sheaves.
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 15, 2014
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              you can replace with low stretch, high teck line easily.  I've done that on my Col. 8.7 and works just fine.  Didn't have to change the sheaves. 
            • Jim Muri
              yeah, and on a small boat the line doesn t have to be particularly high tech either.   James R. Muri Novelist, Sailor BUY: My e-Novelsat Amazon or my book
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 15, 2014
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                yeah, and on a small boat the line doesn't have to be particularly high tech either.
                 
                James R. Muri

                Novelist, Sailor
                BUY: My e-Novels at Amazon or my book site.
                VISIT: My Literary site.  
                READ: My blog

                From: "patn44@... [columbiasailingyachts]" <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com>
                To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 3:29 AM
                Subject: Re: CYOA - Running rigging

                 
                you can replace with low stretch, high teck line easily.  I've done that on my Col. 8.7 and works just fine.  Didn't have to change the sheaves. 


              • cchl74
                It depends on how often one likes to re-tension the main sail luff. A 22 foot boast is going to have about 25 feet of halyard from headboard to cleat. At 20%
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 15, 2014
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                  It depends on how often one likes to re-tension the main sail luff. A 22 foot boast is going to have about 25 feet of halyard from headboard to cleat. At 20% breaking strength load, a V-100 line will stretch about 2 inches, (0.65 % stretch). Stay-Set will stretch about 8 inches, (2.8 % stretch).

                        Bruce K
                        Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                        Los Lunas, NM  





                  yeah, and on a small boat the line doesn't have to be particularly high tech either.


                  James R. Muri

                  Novelist, Sailor
                  BUY: My e-Novels at Amazon or my book site.
                  VISIT: My Literary site
                  READ: My blog.

                • Jesse Doyle
                  I ve got a really reasonably priced seller (not a fly by night) on EBay with tons of rope. From sail rigging to horse rope. He s got double braid XLE, standard
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 15, 2014
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                    I’ve got a really reasonably priced seller (not a fly by night) on EBay with tons of rope. From sail rigging to horse rope. He’s got double braid XLE, standard double braid, double braid nylon and others. Bought the XLE at an excellent price. The sellers name is Roscoef and their store name is Discount rope and line. Won’t hurt your wallet at all to just try a line to test it. Don’t mean to make it sound like I get some kind of kickback (which I don’t) but I can’t find line this reasonable anywhere I’ve looked.

                    Jesse Doyle

                    Redwood City, Ca.

                    s/v Wind Singer

                    1970 28’ Columbia #547

                     

                     

                     

                    From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com]
                    Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 5:20 AM
                    To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: CYOA - Running rigging

                     

                     

                    It depends on how often one likes to re-tension the main sail luff. A 22 foot boast is going to have about 25 feet of halyard from headboard to cleat. At 20% breaking strength load, a V-100 line will stretch about 2 inches, (0.65 % stretch). Stay-Set will stretch about 8 inches, (2.8 % stretch).

                          Bruce K
                          Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                          Los Lunas, NM  






                    yeah, and on a small boat the line doesn't have to be particularly high tech either.


                    James R. Muri

                    Novelist, Sailor
                    BUY: My e-Novels at Amazon or my book site.
                    VISIT: My Literary site
                    READ: My blog.

                  • Harry James
                    What is the rule of thumb for the length of Genny/Jib sheets? HJ ... This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 15, 2014
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                      What is the rule of thumb for the length of Genny/Jib sheets?

                      HJ

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                    • Will
                      Hey Larry, You ve gotten a few responses-not all are good advice. I m a rigger, for what it s worth.  In general, these days, all rope has pretty much
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jun 15, 2014
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                        Hey Larry, You've gotten a few responses-not all are good advice. I'm a rigger, for what it's worth. 
                        In general, these days, all rope has pretty much replaced wire halyards with a rope tail as the material of choice. The major issue with changing halyard materials is the sheave profile at the masthead.  Sheaves are designed to mate with the material passed over it. If you use rope over a narrow sheave designed for wire, the rope will become damaged as it is routinely distorted.As well, it may not fit the opening available and the sheave may be rough from defective wire in the past-a great rope eater. So, you might like to look at the sheave. Sheave diameter also comes into play but most masthead sheaves are big enough.
                        Going to rope as a halyard. The choice is based on budget and expectations. You want a material that will be of low stretch-NOT NYLON in any case. The most basic line is dacron (polyester) 3 strand, then double braid, then solid core and exotics. For a small boat just day-sailing or weekending-3 strand is fine, plus it's easy to learn to spice, Double braid is a little less stretchy, much harder to splice.  Alot of people consider Sta-set by New England Rope as the default, but 3 strand is alot cheaper and so what if you trim the halyard a tad once or twice a day as it stretches a tiny bit-may be worth it. So staying with wire/rope tail is an option, but you may consider changing the sheave if necessary and going rope-cheaper maybe, more user friendly for sure, lighter weight.  Fair Winds,  Will
                      • jeffreykuthy
                        Thanks very much, Will Very informative Jeff Kuthy CLY9.6 #56 WIND WHISPERER PORT CLINTON,  OH -------- Original message -------- From: Will
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jun 15, 2014
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                          Thanks very much, Will
                          Very informative
                          Jeff Kuthy
                          CLY9.6 #56
                          WIND WHISPERER
                          PORT CLINTON,  OH



                          -------- Original message --------
                          From: "Will mainesail113@... [columbiasailingyachts]"
                          Date:06/15/2014 10:22 PM (GMT-05:00)
                          To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: CYOA - Re: Running rigging

                           

                          Hey Larry, You've gotten a few responses-not all are good advice. I'm a rigger, for what it's worth. 
                          In general, these days, all rope has pretty much replaced wire halyards with a rope tail as the material of choice. The major issue with changing halyard materials is the sheave profile at the masthead.  Sheaves are designed to mate with the material passed over it. If you use rope over a narrow sheave designed for wire, the rope will become damaged as it is routinely distorted.As well, it may not fit the opening available and the sheave may be rough from defective wire in the past-a great rope eater. So, you might like to look at the sheave. Sheave diameter also comes into play but most masthead sheaves are big enough.
                          Going to rope as a halyard. The choice is based on budget and expectations. You want a material that will be of low stretch-NOT NYLON in any case. The most basic line is dacron (polyester) 3 strand, then double braid, then solid core and exotics. For a small boat just day-sailing or weekending-3 strand is fine, plus it's easy to learn to spice, Double braid is a little less stretchy, much harder to splice.  Alot of people consider Sta-set by New England Rope as the default, but 3 strand is alot cheaper and so what if you trim the halyard a tad once or twice a day as it stretches a tiny bit-may be worth it. So staying with wire/rope tail is an option, but you may consider changing the sheave if necessary and going rope-cheaper maybe, more user friendly for sure, lighter weight.  Fair Winds,  Will

                        • Alan Miller
                          I had my jib halyard replaced with all rope without changing the sheave and had to change it back. There was too much resistance taking the sail down. So I
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                            I had my jib halyard replaced with all rope without changing the sheave and had to change it back. There was too much resistance taking the sail down. So I changed it back because the sail drops most of the way down with the wire tail.

                            Alan
                            Tempest, C26, No. 22


                            On Sunday, June 15, 2014 8:18 PM, "jeffreykuthy jeffkuthy@... [columbiasailingyachts]" <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                             
                            Thanks very much, Will
                            Very informative
                            Jeff Kuthy
                            CLY9.6 #56
                            WIND WHISPERER
                            PORT CLINTON,  OH



                            -------- Original message --------
                            From: "Will mainesail113@... [columbiasailingyachts]"
                            Date:06/15/2014 10:22 PM (GMT-05:00)
                            To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: CYOA - Re: Running rigging

                             
                            Hey Larry, You've gotten a few responses-not all are good advice. I'm a rigger, for what it's worth. 
                            In general, these days, all rope has pretty much replaced wire halyards with a rope tail as the material of choice. The major issue with changing halyard materials is the sheave profile at the masthead.  Sheaves are designed to mate with the material passed over it. If you use rope over a narrow sheave designed for wire, the rope will become damaged as it is routinely distorted.As well, it may not fit the opening available and the sheave may be rough from defective wire in the past-a great rope eater. So, you might like to look at the sheave. Sheave diameter also comes into play but most masthead sheaves are big enough.
                            Going to rope as a halyard. The choice is based on budget and expectations. You want a material that will be of low stretch-NOT NYLON in any case. The most basic line is dacron (polyester) 3 strand, then double braid, then solid core and exotics. For a small boat just day-sailing or weekending-3 strand is fine, plus it's easy to learn to spice, Double braid is a little less stretchy, much harder to splice.  Alot of people consider Sta-set by New England Rope as the default, but 3 strand is alot cheaper and so what if you trim the halyard a tad once or twice a day as it stretches a tiny bit-may be worth it. So staying with wire/rope tail is an option, but you may consider changing the sheave if necessary and going rope-cheaper maybe, more user friendly for sure, lighter weight.  Fair Winds,  Will


                          • Marty
                            On 06/16/2014 03:13 AM, Alan Miller cbuzzyb@yahoo.com ... Yep, gotta change the sheave. Glad mine was already converted when I got the boat, but it isn t that
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                              On 06/16/2014 03:13 AM, Alan Miller cbuzzyb@...
                              [columbiasailingyachts] wrote:
                              > I had my jib halyard replaced with all rope without changing the
                              > sheave and had to change it back. There was too much resistance
                              > taking the sail down. So I changed it back because the sail drops
                              > most of the way down with the wire tail.

                              Yep, gotta change the sheave. Glad mine was already converted when I
                              got the boat, but it isn't that hard to convert from what I've gathered.

                              --
                              Marty ~ '74 C28 ~ Coastal North Carolina
                            • pajama1lama
                              Do you have or intend to have a furler? Disregard that question, it is immaterial, really. Oh, and our pro rigger Will might have an answer. To keep it simple,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                                Do you have or intend to have a furler?
                                Disregard that question, it is immaterial, really.

                                Oh, and our pro rigger Will might have an answer.

                                To keep it simple, I would say 150% the lead from turning block to tack point, but I just made that up, based on ratio and proportion.

                                I can't state an accepted rule of thumb, and doubt there is one, unless someone has a formula that takes length of sail foot, distance from clew to deck block to turning block to winch, and adds for drum turns and working line above bitter end, then reflects on the lazy side with the line passing over or around the cabin house, and back to deck blocks, turning block to bitter end stopper.

                                 How about this: Draw a line that represents the center line of the boat. Put a dot on the line that represents the tack point at the bow. Scale the line to show the overall length of the boat (for reference and scaling). Construct a perpendicular from that tack point and put a dot on the perpendicular that represents the clew, giving scaled length of the headsail foot (assuming 150% headsail).  Go along the centerline aft, and construct another perpendicular where the turning block or primary turns the line, and scale the distance abeam for the turning point from the centerline. Now draw the line from dot representing turning point to the dot that represents the clew, of the first perpendicular at the bow. Scale that line, add for drum turns, bight on cleat, and free working end to working position (where you stand). It probably adds up to 150% or a little more.

                                Just a guess. I have the rigging plan for my boat, that calls out all the line sizes and lengths plus finishing details. It would help you to locate the same for your boat, but that is probably a long search.

                                ~ pete   . 
                              • cchl74
                                This is sort of an individual boat problem. You need enough line to allow about 3 feet of tail, including a figure 8, then three wraps around the sheet winch,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                                  This is sort of an individual boat problem. You need enough line to allow about 3 feet of tail, including a figure 8, then three wraps around the sheet winch, then out through the lead blocks to the clew when the sail is poled out, square to the centerline if the boat, on either side. The other length to consider is enough line for three feet of tail with a figure 8, three wraps around the winch, then through the lead blocks and around the mast and back to the clew on the leeward side when the sail is sheeted all the way back on a close reach. Is this what you're asking?

                                       Bruce K
                                       Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                       Los Lunas, NM



                                  What is the rule of thumb for the length of Genny/Jib sheets?

                                  HJ

                                • cchl74
                                  I disagree somewhat. I think three strand is way too stretchy for running rigging. Most 3 strands run around 10% stretch at 20% breaking strength, although New
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                                    I disagree somewhat. I think three strand is way too stretchy for running rigging. Most 3 strands run around 10% stretch at 20% breaking strength, although New England has one that runs around 4.5%. Even Sta-Set is marginal at 3%, but if one must, OK. For a 50 foot length, three strand will run around $30 and Sta-Set will run about double that. However, any stretch in the rigging is energy lost. This is also why one never hand holds a sheet in light air. Always cleat a sheet down no matter how light the wind. When a puff hits, even a half knot puff, the arm will flex and that energy is gone. I splice three stand all the time with no problem.

                                          Bruce K
                                          Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                          Los Lunas, NM





                                    Hey Larry, You've gotten a few responses-not all are good advice. I'm a rigger, for what it's worth.
                                    In general, these days, all rope has pretty much replaced wire halyards with a rope tail as the material of choice. The major issue with changing halyard materials is the sheave profile at the masthead.  Sheaves are designed to mate with the material passed over it. If you use rope over a narrow sheave designed for wire, the rope will become damaged as it is routinely distorted.As well, it may not fit the opening available and the sheave may be rough from defective wire in the past-a great rope eater. So, you might like to look at the sheave. Sheave diameter also comes into play but most masthead sheaves are big enough.
                                    Going to rope as a halyard. The choice is based on budget and expectations. You want a material that will be of low stretch-NOT NYLON in any case. The most basic line is dacron (polyester) 3 strand, then double braid, then solid core and exotics. For a small boat just day-sailing or weekending-3 strand is fine, plus it's easy to learn to spice, Double braid is a little less stretchy, much harder to splice.  Alot of people consider Sta-set by New England Rope as the default, but 3 strand is alot cheaper and so what if you trim the halyard a tad once or twice a day as it stretches a tiny bit-may be worth it. So staying with wire/rope tail is an option, but you may consider changing the sheave if necessary and going rope-cheaper maybe, more user friendly for sure, lighter weight.  Fair Winds,  Will

                                  • cjecje1
                                    On a sloop the jib sheets tend to be about 1 1/2 times the boats length. It isn t the active sheet dictates the required length - the windward sheet has to be
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                                      On a sloop the jib sheets tend to be about 1 1/2 times the boats length. It isn't the active sheet dictates the required length - the windward sheet has to be long enough to be slack without loosing the sheet past the winch.

                                      stephen
                                      -----------







                                      dchthrough windward it is ht s h
                                      On Jun 16, 2014, at 7:06 AM, petemalone@... [columbiasailingyachts] wrote:

                                      Do you have or intend to have a furler?
                                      Disregard that question, it is immaterial, really.

                                      Oh, and our pro rigger Will might have an answer.

                                      To keep it simple, I would say 150% the lead from turning block to tack point, but I just made that up, based on ratio and proportion.

                                      I can't state an accepted rule of thumb, and doubt there is one, unless someone has a formula that takes length of sail foot, distance from clew to deck block to turning block to winch, and adds for drum turns and working line above bitter end, then reflects on the lazy side with the line passing over or around the cabin house, and back to deck blocks, turning block to bitter end stopper.

                                      How about this: Draw a line that represents the center line of the boat. Put a dot on the line that represents the tack point at the bow. Scale the line to show the overall length of the boat (for reference and scaling). Construct a perpendicular from that tack point and put a dot on the perpendicular that represents the clew, giving scaled length of the headsail foot (assuming 150% headsail). Go along the centerline aft, and construct another perpendicular where the turning block or primary turns the line, and scale the distance abeam for the turning point from the centerline. Now draw the line from dot representing turning point to the dot that represents the clew, of the first perpendicular at the bow. Scale that line, add for drum turns, bight on cleat, and free working end to working position (where you stand). It probably adds up to 150% or a little more.

                                      Just a guess. I have the rigging plan for my boat, that calls out all the line sizes and lengths plus finishing details. It would help you to locate the same for your boat, but that is probably a long search.

                                      ~ pete .
                                    • Marty
                                      ... Given that higher strength raises the force required to get to a given percentage of stretch or breaking strength, would this be an argument for using a
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                                        On 06/16/2014 09:11 AM, Kbjmjrb@... [columbiasailingyachts] wrote:
                                        > I disagree somewhat. I think three strand is way too stretchy for
                                        > running rigging. Most 3 strands run around 10% stretch at 20%
                                        > breaking strength,

                                        Given that higher strength raises the force required to get to a given
                                        percentage of stretch or breaking strength, would this be an argument
                                        for using a larger diameter than normal (higher strength) 3 strand if
                                        one is determined to use 3 strand? With appropriate sheave and other
                                        hardware changes of course.

                                        --
                                        Marty ~ '74 C28 ~ Coastal North Carolina
                                      • cchl74
                                        That is certainly true. The original inquiry mentioned 5/16 and even in 3 strand, that has a higher breaking strength than the original 1/8 7 X 19 steel
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                                          That is certainly true. The original inquiry mentioned 5/16" and even in 3 strand, that has a higher breaking strength than the original 1/8" 7 X 19 steel wire. Going to a larger diameter will stretch less. But it will also add weight aloft and may require larger sheaves and cleats. I use 1/2" Samson fuzzy braid for jib sheets because it is easy on the hands but it also does not stretch much under the loads it sees on a 24 footer.

                                                Bruce K
                                                Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                                Los Lunas, NM



                                          On 06/16/2014 09:11 AM, Kbjmjrb@... [columbiasailingyachts] wrote:
                                          >I disagree somewhat. I think three strand is way too stretchy for
                                          >running rigging. Most 3 strands run around 10% stretch at 20%
                                          >breaking strength,

                                          Given that higher strength raises the force required to get to a given
                                          percentage of stretch or breaking strength, would this be an argument
                                          for using a larger diameter than normal (higher strength) 3 strand if
                                          one is determined to use 3 strand? With appropriate sheave and other
                                          hardware changes of course.

                                          --
                                          Marty ~ '74 C28 ~ Coastal North Carolina
                                        • Harry James
                                          I thought I remembered a rule of thumb from you I thought, I will go do some measuring. I am putting new running rigging on a boat I am selling. HJ ... This
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jun 16, 2014
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                                            I thought I remembered a rule of thumb from you I thought, I will go do some measuring. I am putting new running rigging on a boat I am selling.

                                            HJ
                                            On 6/16/2014 4:52 AM, Kbjmjrb@... [columbiasailingyachts] wrote:
                                            This is sort of an individual boat problem. You need enough line to allow about 3 feet of tail, including a figure 8, then three wraps around the sheet winch, then out through the lead blocks to the clew when the sail is poled out, square to the centerline if the boat, on either side. The other length to consider is enough line for three feet of tail with a figure 8, three wraps around the winch, then through the lead blocks and around the mast and back to the clew on the leeward side when the sail is sheeted all the way back on a close reach. Is this what you're asking?

                                                 Bruce K
                                                 Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                                 Los Lunas, NM



                                            What is the rule of thumb for the length of Genny/Jib sheets?

                                            HJ





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