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Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28

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  • Marty
    Good Morning, What is the forum wisdom for shaft length on outboards for boats with outboard wells? I was figuring that since the well is so low set that
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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      Good Morning,
      What is the forum wisdom for shaft length on outboards for boats with
      outboard wells? I was figuring that since the well is so low set that
      something a bit longer than a short shaft would be fine but an
      acquaintance is saying that even though it sits low, a long shaft is
      better because it prevents aeration and cavitation in rough seas and
      with 5' of draft there is no harm in having it down so low. The
      argument makes sense to me but what are your thoughts?

      Marty
      Columbia 28
    • Michael Shea
      I agree. I am converting my 1964 C29 from Atomic 4 to Tohatsu 9.9 in the rear lazerette, which I am modifying to be a well. I just, flatly, don t like a
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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        I agree.  I am converting my 1964 C29 from Atomic 4 to Tohatsu 9.9 in the rear lazerette, which I am modifying to be a well.  I just, flatly, don't like a gasoline inboard engine especially on a sailboat, and outboards are so much more convenient...just take them off in the late fall, drop them off at the marina for service, put on a perfectly running enfine in April.

        ---------- Original Message ----------
        From: Marty <marty@...>
        To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: CYOA - Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28
        Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:15:17 -0400

         

        Good Morning,
        What is the forum wisdom for shaft length on outboards for boats with
        outboard wells? I was figuring that since the well is so low set that
        something a bit longer than a short shaft would be fine but an
        acquaintance is saying that even though it sits low, a long shaft is
        better because it prevents aeration and cavitation in rough seas and
        with 5' of draft there is no harm in having it down so low. The
        argument makes sense to me but what are your thoughts?

        Marty
        Columbia 28



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      • Marty
        ... Michael, What shaft length did you decide was ideal? That is my quandary. A shorter shaft would be easier to take in/out of the lazerette, but the
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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          On 10/15/2013 09:22 AM, Michael Shea wrote:
          > I agree. I am converting my 1964 C29 from Atomic 4 to Tohatsu 9.9 in
          > the rear lazerette, which I am modifying to be a well. I just, flatly,
          > don't like a gasoline inboard engine especially on a sailboat, and
          > outboards are so much more convenient...just take them off in the late
          > fall, drop them off at the marina for service, put on a perfectly
          > running enfine in April.
          >

          Michael,
          What shaft length did you decide was ideal? That is my quandary. A
          shorter shaft would be easier to take in/out of the lazerette, but the
          argument was made that a longer shaft will stay immersed better when
          running in rough seas and hobby-horsing.

          Marty
        • Michael Shea
          I believe that a short shaft would probably work, based on the scale drawing I have done...it seems that the prop would be plenty deep, and there is no planing
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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            I believe that a short shaft would probably work, based on the scale drawing I have done...it seems that the prop would be plenty deep, and there is no planing or other nonsense to exacerbate cavitition.  But, for myself, I am putting in a lon shaft because i found it used, locallu available, electric start & well priced.  And, like what was said before, with a 4' draft, there is no danger of running my prop aground.

            ---------- Original Message ----------
            From: Marty <marty@...>
            To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: CYOA - Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28
            Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:30:42 -0400

            On 10/15/2013 09:22 AM, Michael Shea wrote:
            > I agree.  I am converting my 1964 C29 from Atomic 4 to Tohatsu 9.9 in
            > the rear lazerette, which I am modifying to be a well.  I just, flatly,
            > don't like a gasoline inboard engine especially on a sailboat, and
            > outboards are so much more convenient...just take them off in the late
            > fall, drop them off at the marina for service, put on a perfectly
            > running enfine in April.
            >

            Michael,
            What shaft length did you decide was ideal?  That is my quandary.  A
            shorter shaft would be easier to take in/out of the lazerette, but the
            argument was made that a longer shaft will stay immersed better when
            running in rough seas and hobby-horsing.

            Marty





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          • Tom Gentry
            Deeper is better. Since it s not increasing your draft, I d go with an XL. Tom Gentry www.captaintomsailing.com On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:40 AM, Michael
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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              Deeper is better. Since it's not increasing your draft, I'd go with an XL.

              Tom Gentry
              www.captaintomsailing.com



              On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:40 AM, Michael Shea <jmshea0527@...> wrote:
               
              I believe that a short shaft would probably work, based on the scale drawing I have done...it seems that the prop would be plenty deep, and there is no planing or other nonsense to exacerbate cavitition.  But, for myself, I am putting in a lon shaft because i found it used, locallu available, electric start & well priced.  And, like what was said before, with a 4' draft, there is no danger of running my prop aground.

              ---------- Original Message ----------
              From: Marty <marty@...>
              To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: CYOA - Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28
              Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:30:42 -0400

              On 10/15/2013 09:22 AM, Michael Shea wrote:
              > I agree.  I am converting my 1964 C29 from Atomic 4 to Tohatsu 9.9 in
              > the rear lazerette, which I am modifying to be a well.  I just, flatly,
              > don't like a gasoline inboard engine especially on a sailboat, and
              > outboards are so much more convenient...just take them off in the late
              > fall, drop them off at the marina for service, put on a perfectly
              > running enfine in April.
              >

              Michael,
              What shaft length did you decide was ideal?  That is my quandary.  A
              shorter shaft would be easier to take in/out of the lazerette, but the
              argument was made that a longer shaft will stay immersed better when
              running in rough seas and hobby-horsing.

              Marty





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            • David Morgan
              The hazard of short shafts on transom mounts is that it will cavitate if there is any hobby horse going on.  The forward / aft rock of the boat will expose
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                The hazard of short shafts on transom mounts is that it will cavitate if there is any hobby horse going on.  The forward / aft rock of the boat will expose the prop with some regularity if there is much wave action.  Several people on the Columbia 22 list have reported such experience.  I would imagine a longer boat only increasing the problem. 
                 
                David
                Bremerton, WA
                1968 C-22 #1109
                "Eaglet"


                On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 6:41 AM, Michael Shea <jmshea0527@...> wrote:
                 
                I believe that a short shaft would probably work, based on the scale drawing I have done...it seems that the prop would be plenty deep, and there is no planing or other nonsense to exacerbate cavitition.  But, for myself, I am putting in a lon shaft because i found it used, locallu available, electric start & well priced.  And, like what was said before, with a 4' draft, there is no danger of running my prop aground.

                ---------- Original Message ----------
                From: Marty <marty@...>
                To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: CYOA - Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28
                Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:30:42 -0400

                On 10/15/2013 09:22 AM, Michael Shea wrote:
                > I agree.  I am converting my 1964 C29 from Atomic 4 to Tohatsu 9.9 in
                > the rear lazerette, which I am modifying to be a well.  I just, flatly,
                > don't like a gasoline inboard engine especially on a sailboat, and
                > outboards are so much more convenient...just take them off in the late
                > fall, drop them off at the marina for service, put on a perfectly
                > running enfine in April.
                >

                Michael,
                What shaft length did you decide was ideal?  That is my quandary.  A
                shorter shaft would be easier to take in/out of the lazerette, but the
                argument was made that a longer shaft will stay immersed better when
                running in rough seas and hobby-horsing.

                Marty





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                http://www.columbia-yachts.com/

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              • Marty
                ... Agreed in the case of transom mount, but the gray area for me came up with the lazarette/well configuration, which sits down at the waterline. Looks like
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                  On 10/15/2013 09:59 AM, David Morgan wrote:
                  > The hazard of short shafts on transom mounts is that it will cavitate if
                  > there is any hobby horse going on. The forward / aft rock of the boat
                  > will expose the prop with some regularity if there is much wave action.
                  > Several people on the Columbia 22 list have reported such experience.
                  > I would imagine a longer boat only increasing the problem.
                  >

                  Agreed in the case of transom mount, but the gray area for me came up
                  with the lazarette/well configuration, which sits down at the waterline.

                  Looks like anything other than an extremely short shaft should do ok
                  mounted low in the lazarette, and a longer shaft would be better in very
                  rough seas and protected by the keel, but even a mid length would
                  probably be fine with regards to rough seas given the mounting location
                  much lower and a bit further forward than a transom mount.

                  Marty
                • cwrandomx
                  Past wisdom and posts over the years have said that long shaft is needed..cavitation is-was the issue...thiMk about it...squall conditions blowing you into -
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                    Past wisdom and posts over the years have said that long shaft is needed..cavitation is-was the issue...thiMk about it...squall conditions blowing you into - onto rock jetty-pilings etc...drop sails..fire up the iron genny and due to 4 ft (more?) Or severe chop-wave action you have limited control.....hmmmm..I'd want as much prop in the water the greatest amount of time....plan for the worst, hope for the best scenario in my mind...BSA thinking...NO not cycles yet..no snow on the ground..rather -t is "be prepared"...lol
                    Chip Wood
                    Chapel Hill & Beaufort, NC
                    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

                    From: "Michael Shea" <jmshea0527@...>
                    Sender: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:37:26 GMT
                    To: <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com>
                    ReplyTo: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: CYOA - Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28

                     

                    I believe that a short shaft would probably work, based on the scale drawing I have done...it seems that the prop would be plenty deep, and there is no planing or other nonsense to exacerbate cavitition.  But, for myself, I am putting in a lon shaft because i found it used, locallu available, electric start & well priced.  And, like what was said before, with a 4' draft, there is no danger of running my prop aground.

                    ---------- Original Message ----------
                    From: Marty <marty@...>
                    To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: CYOA - Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28
                    Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 09:30:42 -0400

                    On 10/15/2013 09:22 AM, Michael Shea wrote:
                    > I agree.  I am converting my 1964 C29 from Atomic 4 to Tohatsu 9.9 in
                    > the rear lazerette, which I am modifying to be a well.  I just, flatly,
                    > don't like a gasoline inboard engine especially on a sailboat, and> outboards are so much more convenient...just take them off in the late
                    > fall, drop them off at the marina for service, put on a perfectly
                    > running enfine in April.
                    >

                    Michael,
                    What shaft length did you decide was ideal?  That is my quandary.  A
                    shorter shaft would be easier to take in/out of the lazerette, but the
                    argument was made that a longer shaft will stay immersed better when
                    running in rough seas and hobby-horsing.

                    Marty





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                  • cchl74
                    Take it from one who runs a well mounted engine. Go with the long shaft. When running, if the top of the prop comes to within a few inches of the surface, you
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                      Take it from one who runs a well mounted engine. Go with the long shaft. When running, if the top of the prop comes to within a few inches of the surface, you will get ventilation. Any wave action will cause problems with a short shaft. Also, be mindful that the engine is being tossed up and down violently in rough weather so make sockets for the engine mount clamps. Do not rely on just friction to hold the engine in place, even in a well. This is more of a problem with transom mounted engines. Somebody looses an engine about once a year in my marina due to wave action tossing it off the mounts. But it still applies to well mounted engines.


                              Bruce K
                              Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                              Los Lunas, NM 




                      On 10/15/2013 09:59 AM, David Morgan wrote:
                      >The hazard of short shafts on transom mounts is that it will cavitate if
                      >there is any hobby horse going on. The forward / aft rock of the boat
                      >will expose the prop with some regularity if there is much wave action.
                      >Several people on the Columbia 22 list have reported such experience.
                      >I would imagine a longer boat only increasing the problem.
                      >

                      Agreed in the case of transom mount, but the gray area for me came up
                      with the lazarette/well configuration, which sits down at the waterline.

                      Looks like anything other than an extremely short shaft should do ok
                      mounted low in the lazarette, and a longer shaft would be better in very
                      rough seas and protected by the keel, but even a mid length would
                      probably be fine with regards to rough seas given the mounting location
                      much lower and a bit further forward than a transom mount.

                      Marty
                    • John Dodd
                      def a long shaft john dodd ... -- My new favorite quote The last thing you want to is to be sitting on your death bed with all your dreams standing around
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                        def a long shaft
                        john dodd


                        On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 9:15 AM, Marty <marty@...> wrote:
                         

                        Good Morning,
                        What is the forum wisdom for shaft length on outboards for boats with
                        outboard wells? I was figuring that since the well is so low set that
                        something a bit longer than a short shaft would be fine but an
                        acquaintance is saying that even though it sits low, a long shaft is
                        better because it prevents aeration and cavitation in rough seas and
                        with 5' of draft there is no harm in having it down so low. The
                        argument makes sense to me but what are your thoughts?

                        Marty
                        Columbia 28




                        --
                        My new favorite quote
                        "The last thing you want to is to be sitting on your death bed with all your dreams standing around asking, why you taking us with you ? ... so many people do that ... so many people think your dreams have deadlines... but they don't" ... L.L. Cool J ... july 8th 2012
                      • David Tice
                        I have a long shaft in the well on my C-26 MKII. Works very good. Cheers, Dave T Sent from my iPhone
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                          I have a long shaft in the well on my C-26 MKII. Works very good.
                          Cheers,
                          Dave T
                          Sent from my iPhone
                        • Marty
                          ... A convincing argument and noted. Thanks Chip. Marty
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                            On 10/15/2013 10:13 AM, cwrandomx@... wrote:
                            > Past wisdom and posts over the years have said that long shaft is
                            > needed..cavitation is-was the issue...thiMk about it...squall conditions
                            > blowing you into - onto rock jetty-pilings etc...drop sails..fire up the
                            > iron genny and due to 4 ft (more?) Or severe chop-wave action you have
                            > limited control.....hmmmm..I'd want as much prop in the water the
                            > greatest amount of time....plan for the worst, hope for the best
                            > scenario in my mind...BSA thinking...NO not cycles yet..no snow on the
                            > ground..rather -t is "be prepared"...lol
                            >
                            A convincing argument and noted. Thanks Chip.

                            Marty
                          • Marty
                            ... Thanks for the info, Bruce, will heed. Marty
                            Message 13 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                              On 10/15/2013 10:19 AM, Kbjmjrb@... wrote:
                              > Take it from one who runs a well mounted engine. Go with the long shaft.
                              > When running, if the top of the prop comes to within a few inches of the
                              > surface, you will get ventilation. Any wave action will cause problems
                              > with a short shaft. Also, be mindful that the engine is being tossed up
                              > and down violently in rough weather so make sockets for the engine mount
                              > clamps. Do not rely on just friction to hold the engine in place, even
                              > in a well. This is more of a problem with transom mounted engines.
                              > Somebody looses an engine about once a year in my marina due to wave
                              > action tossing it off the mounts. But it still applies to well mounted
                              > engines.
                              >

                              Thanks for the info, Bruce, will heed.

                              Marty
                            • Mike McCollough
                              Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well mount. It matter
                              Message 14 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.
                              • Marty
                                ... This is where I was starting from, Mike. When I pull out the block in the bottom of my outboard well, the water is right there. Even a short shaft would
                                Message 15 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                  On 10/15/2013 03:15 PM, Mike McCollough wrote:
                                  > Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is
                                  > obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well
                                  > mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very
                                  > interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well
                                  > is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the
                                  > engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.
                                  >

                                  This is where I was starting from, Mike. When I pull out the block in
                                  the bottom of my outboard well, the water is right there. Even a short
                                  shaft would put the prop several inches under the surface in calm water.
                                  And it being so far under the curve of wineglass, my gut tells me that
                                  anything substantially longer than a short shaft would be fine even in
                                  rough seas. But I can see the argument others posted that since
                                  the keel protects a long shaft, why not use one. On the other hand, the
                                  keel won't protect when reversing, so maybe there is a reason to not
                                  assume deeper is better.

                                  My take away is that I'll just keep an eye out for a deal on a longer
                                  than short shaft decent outboard, and upgrade it later to what works
                                  better later.

                                  Marty
                                • Tom Gentry
                                  Good point Mike, the location of the well would make a difference. I as assuming the well was pretty near the stern, and we all know what happens when one
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                    Good point Mike, the location of the well would make a difference. I as assuming the well was pretty near the stern, and we all know what happens when one assumes.

                                    Tom Gentry
                                    www.captaintomsailing.com



                                    On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:59 PM, Marty <marty@...> wrote:
                                     
                                    On 10/15/2013 03:15 PM, Mike McCollough wrote:
                                    > Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is
                                    > obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well
                                    > mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very
                                    > interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well
                                    > is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the
                                    > engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.
                                    >

                                    This is where I was starting from, Mike. When I pull out the block in
                                    the bottom of my outboard well, the water is right there. Even a short
                                    shaft would put the prop several inches under the surface in calm water.
                                    And it being so far under the curve of wineglass, my gut tells me that
                                    anything substantially longer than a short shaft would be fine even in
                                    rough seas. But I can see the argument others posted that since
                                    the keel protects a long shaft, why not use one. On the other hand, the
                                    keel won't protect when reversing, so maybe there is a reason to not
                                    assume deeper is better.

                                    My take away is that I'll just keep an eye out for a deal on a longer
                                    than short shaft decent outboard, and upgrade it later to what works
                                    better later.

                                    Marty


                                  • mainesail113
                                    Hi, Adding my bit. Yes there are many days when a short shaft will serve fine-but it doesn t take much chop-2 feet will do it in many boats, depending on the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                      Hi, Adding my bit.  Yes there are many days when a short shaft will serve fine-but it doesn't take much chop-2 feet will do it in many boats, depending on the wind, for the prop to cavitate or plain jump clear of the water- not good for anybody.  Good seamanship includes being very prepared for the unexpected- go for the long shaft is my recommendation in a well and on a bracket.  Fair Winds,  Will



                                      ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <speedracer815@...> wrote:

                                      Good point Mike, the location of the well would make a difference. I as assuming the well was pretty near the stern, and we all know what happens when one assumes.

                                      Tom Gentry
                                      www.captaintomsailing.com



                                      On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:59 PM, Marty <marty@...> wrote:
                                       
                                      On 10/15/2013 03:15 PM, Mike McCollough wrote:
                                      > Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is
                                      > obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well
                                      > mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very
                                      > interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well
                                      > is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the
                                      > engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.
                                      >

                                      This is where I was starting from, Mike. When I pull out the block in
                                      the bottom of my outboard well, the water is right there. Even a short
                                      shaft would put the prop several inches under the surface in calm water.
                                      And it being so far under the curve of wineglass, my gut tells me that
                                      anything substantially longer than a short shaft would be fine even in
                                      rough seas. But I can see the argument others posted that since
                                      the keel protects a long shaft, why not use one. On the other hand, the
                                      keel won't protect when reversing, so maybe there is a reason to not
                                      assume deeper is better.

                                      My take away is that I'll just keep an eye out for a deal on a longer
                                      than short shaft decent outboard, and upgrade it later to what works
                                      better later.

                                      Marty


                                    • Michael Shea
                                      Has anyone converted the stern lazerette of an early C29 into an outboard well? I have a 1964 ... From: To:
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                        Has anyone converted the stern lazerette of an early C29 into an outboard well?  I have a 1964

                                        ---------- Original Message ----------
                                        From: <mainesail113@...>
                                        To: <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: CYOA - RE: Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28
                                        Date: 15 Oct 2013 15:19:49 -0700

                                         

                                        Hi, Adding my bit.  Yes there are many days when a short shaft will serve fine-but it doesn't take much chop-2 feet will do it in many boats, depending on the wind, for the prop to cavitate or plain jump clear of the water- not good for anybody.  Good seamanship includes being very prepared for the unexpected- go for the long shaft is my recommendation in a well and on a bracket.  Fair Winds,  Will



                                        ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <speedracer815@...> wrote:

                                        Good point Mike, the location of the well would make a difference. I as assuming the well was pretty near the stern, and we all know what happens when one assumes.

                                        Tom Gentry
                                        www.captaintomsailing.com



                                        On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:59 PM, Marty <marty@...> wrote:
                                         
                                        On 10/15/2013 03:15 PM, Mike McCollough wrote:
                                        > Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is
                                        > obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well
                                        > mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very
                                        > interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well
                                        > is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the
                                        > engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.
                                        >

                                        This is where I was starting from, Mike. When I pull out the block in
                                        the bottom of my outboard well, the water is right there. Even a short
                                        shaft would put the prop several inches under the surface in calm water.
                                        And it being so far under the curve of wineglass, my gut tells me that
                                        anything substantially longer than a short shaft would be fine even in
                                        rough seas. But I can see the argument others posted that since
                                        the keel protects a long shaft, why not use one. On the other hand, the
                                        keel won't protect when reversing, so maybe there is a reason to not
                                        assume deeper is better.

                                        My take away is that I'll just keep an eye out for a deal on a longer
                                        than short shaft decent outboard, and upgrade it later to what works
                                        better later.

                                        Marty




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                                      • Harry James
                                        James Baldwin has a really excellent video on installing a tilt-up outboard in a well. If I was going to keep the Triton I would do this. With a XL shaft
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                          James Baldwin has a really excellent video on installing a tilt-up outboard in a well. If I was going to keep the Triton I would do this. With a XL shaft Tohatsu the prop is almost down where it would be with an inboard installation. 

                                          http://atomvoyages.com/gallery/video-gallery/285-outboardnorvaneinstall.html

                                          HJ


                                          On 10/15/2013 2:39 PM, Michael Shea wrote:
                                          Has anyone converted the stern lazerette of an early C29 into an outboard well?  I have a 1964

                                          ---------- Original Message ----------
                                          From: <mainesail113@...>
                                          To: <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: CYOA - RE: Outboard for outboard well Columbia/Coronado 28
                                          Date: 15 Oct 2013 15:19:49 -0700

                                           

                                          Hi, Adding my bit.  Yes there are many days when a short shaft will serve fine-but it doesn't take much chop-2 feet will do it in many boats, depending on the wind, for the prop to cavitate or plain jump clear of the water- not good for anybody.  Good seamanship includes being very prepared for the unexpected- go for the long shaft is my recommendation in a well and on a bracket.  Fair Winds,  Will



                                          ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <speedracer815@...> wrote:

                                          Good point Mike, the location of the well would make a difference. I as assuming the well was pretty near the stern, and we all know what happens when one assumes.

                                          Tom Gentry



                                          On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:59 PM, Marty <marty@...> wrote:
                                           
                                          On 10/15/2013 03:15 PM, Mike McCollough wrote:
                                          > Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is
                                          > obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well
                                          > mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very
                                          > interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well
                                          > is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the
                                          > engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.
                                          >

                                          This is where I was starting from, Mike. When I pull out the block in
                                          the bottom of my outboard well, the water is right there. Even a short
                                          shaft would put the prop several inches under the surface in calm water.
                                          And it being so far under the curve of wineglass, my gut tells me that
                                          anything substantially longer than a short shaft would be fine even in
                                          rough seas. But I can see the argument others posted that since
                                          the keel protects a long shaft, why not use one. On the other hand, the
                                          keel won't protect when reversing, so maybe there is a reason to not
                                          assume deeper is better.

                                          My take away is that I'll just keep an eye out for a deal on a longer
                                          than short shaft decent outboard, and upgrade it later to what works
                                          better later.

                                          Marty




                                          ____________________________________________________________
                                          New Diet Pill Hits Market
                                          Highly Anticipated Weight-Loss Pill Now Available.
                                          HLifestyles.com

                                        • cchl74
                                          On my boat, the end of the waterline is just to a couple inches behind the front of the well. I have an Evenrude 6 hp long shaft. The anti-ventilation plate is
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                            On my boat, the end of the waterline is just to a couple inches behind the front of the well. I have an Evenrude 6 hp long shaft. The anti-ventilation plate is around 8 inches below the waterline. However, when it is rough, the waves can be spaced so that a swell at the middle of the hull lifts the hull about the same time the bow drops into the trough ahead. The trough behind, plus the lifted hull, are enough to briefly start ventilation. Normally, I would be sailing under such conditions, but when doing race committee work and such, I have been out there running the engine under such conditions and ventilation occasionally occurs. (The correct term is ventilation. Cavitation occurs when the pressure on the back side of the propeller blade drops to the point that the water in the immediate area boils. The boiling point of water is very pressure dependent and with high rpms, it can happen in water was cold as 50 - 60 degrees, but it is rare with props and engine speeds normally used by sailboats). Sometime when it is choppy out there, take a look and some of the sailboats that are showing some heel. You may be a bit surprised just how much keel and rudder blade peek through on occasion.



                                                    Bruce K
                                                    Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                                    Los Lunas, NM


                                            Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.

                                          • John Dodd
                                            the previous owner of my 26 tried to use a short shaft 15hp in the well of the 26 to move it 10 miles down river in the Chesapeake ... he ended up having to
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                              the previous owner of my 26 tried to use a short shaft 15hp in the well of the 26 to move it 10 miles down river in the Chesapeake ... he ended up having to get a tow for most of the way because the prop would come out of the water every-time he hit waves .he nearly burned up the engine .. and ended up using tow boat to pull him in some 9miles .. lucky he had tow boats insurance .
                                              john dodd


                                              On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 6:19 PM, <mainesail113@...> wrote:
                                               

                                              Hi, Adding my bit.  Yes there are many days when a short shaft will serve fine-but it doesn't take much chop-2 feet will do it in many boats, depending on the wind, for the prop to cavitate or plain jump clear of the water- not good for anybody.  Good seamanship includes being very prepared for the unexpected- go for the long shaft is my recommendation in a well and on a bracket.  Fair Winds,  Will



                                              ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <speedracer815@...> wrote:

                                              Good point Mike, the location of the well would make a difference. I as assuming the well was pretty near the stern, and we all know what happens when one assumes.

                                              Tom Gentry



                                              On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:59 PM, Marty <marty@...> wrote:
                                               
                                              On 10/15/2013 03:15 PM, Mike McCollough wrote:
                                              > Interesting comments on well mount, but no reasoning. Transom mount is
                                              > obvious the prop can come out of the water, but not so easily for well
                                              > mount. It matter where the well mount is. On the 22 it would be a very
                                              > interesting situation to expose the bottom of the well mount. The well
                                              > is a good 18+ inches from the transom and in front of the rudder. If the
                                              > engine is exposed then a lot of the rudder is not in the water.
                                              >

                                              This is where I was starting from, Mike. When I pull out the block in
                                              the bottom of my outboard well, the water is right there. Even a short
                                              shaft would put the prop several inches under the surface in calm water.
                                              And it being so far under the curve of wineglass, my gut tells me that
                                              anything substantially longer than a short shaft would be fine even in
                                              rough seas. But I can see the argument others posted that since
                                              the keel protects a long shaft, why not use one. On the other hand, the
                                              keel won't protect when reversing, so maybe there is a reason to not
                                              assume deeper is better.

                                              My take away is that I'll just keep an eye out for a deal on a longer
                                              than short shaft decent outboard, and upgrade it later to what works
                                              better later.

                                              Marty





                                              --
                                              My new favorite quote
                                              "The last thing you want to is to be sitting on your death bed with all your dreams standing around asking, why you taking us with you ? ... so many people do that ... so many people think your dreams have deadlines... but they don't" ... L.L. Cool J ... july 8th 2012
                                            • Marty
                                              ... Thanks for all the great info, guys. Good as gold and sure to save some grief. I d already written off a short shaft, but I certainly didn t know it was
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                                On 10/15/2013 09:11 PM, John Dodd wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > the previous owner of my 26 tried to use a short shaft 15hp in the well
                                                > of the 26 to move it 10 miles down river in the Chesapeake ... he ended
                                                > up having to get a tow for most of the way because the prop would come
                                                > out of the water every-time he hit waves .he nearly burned up the engine
                                                > .. and ended up using tow boat to pull him in some 9miles .. lucky he
                                                > had tow boats insurance .
                                                > john dodd
                                                >

                                                Thanks for all the great info, guys. Good as gold and sure to save some
                                                grief. I'd already written off a short shaft, but I certainly didn't
                                                know it was a bad idea for protected waters. Very good to know.

                                                Marty
                                              • Marty
                                                ... That tilt up is very nicely done and would be a great thing to get working, thanks for posting. Marty
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Oct 15, 2013
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                                                  On 10/15/2013 06:58 PM, Harry James wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > James Baldwin has a really excellent video on installing a tilt-up
                                                  > outboard in a well. If I was going to keep the Triton I would do this.
                                                  > With a XL shaft Tohatsu the prop is almost down where it would be with
                                                  > an inboard installation.
                                                  >
                                                  > http://atomvoyages.com/gallery/video-gallery/285-outboardnorvaneinstall.html
                                                  >

                                                  That tilt up is very nicely done and would be a great thing to get
                                                  working, thanks for posting.

                                                  Marty
                                                • Mike McCollough
                                                  It matters where the well is. Baldwin s well mount is near the end of the boat and intersects with the transom. I would use a long shaft there. For the 22,
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
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                                                    It matters where the well is. Baldwin's well mount is near the end of the boat and intersects with the transom. I would use a long shaft there. For the 22, exposing the well means the rudder is also fairly exposed. So much exposed I would think the boat would have rounded up if heeled some time ago. If not heeled then the front of the boat is at a very steep downward angle. Drawing a picture to scale, then tilting the boat around the waterline will show if for one well location the prop will ventilate.
                                                  • David Morgan
                                                    When I experienced my motor ventilating (in the cockpit well) I was in small craft advisory conditions.  Waves were  2 to 3 feet minimum and.... I couldn t
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
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                                                      When I experienced my motor ventilating (in the cockpit well) I was in small craft advisory conditions.  Waves were  2 to 3 feet
                                                      minimum and.... I couldn't tell you interval, I would say they were moderately steep.  Periodically the waves and hull action would combine to cause momentary ventilation.  It wasn't a sustained condition and so the rudder wasn't exposed long enough to allow the boat to loose bearing.  

                                                      I don't know how much ventilation an outboard can take before it sustains damage.  Some of our engineering types may have an opinion.  

                                                      David
                                                      Bremerton, WA
                                                      1968 C-22 #1109
                                                      "Eaglet"


                                                      On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:58 AM, Mike McCollough <mike.mccollough@...> wrote:
                                                       
                                                      It matters where the well is. Baldwin's well mount is near the end of the boat and intersects with the transom. I would use a long shaft there. For the 22, exposing the well means the rudder is also fairly exposed. So much exposed I would think the boat would have rounded up if heeled some time ago. If not heeled then the front of the boat is at a very steep downward angle. Drawing a picture to scale, then tilting the boat around the waterline will show if for one well location the prop will ventilate.


                                                    • Marty
                                                      ... A float switch on the shaft that idled down the engine to prevent ventilation comes to mind. Marty
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Oct 16, 2013
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                                                        On 10/16/2013 10:22 AM, David Morgan wrote:
                                                        > When I experienced my motor ventilating (in the cockpit well) I was in
                                                        > small craft advisory conditions. Waves were 2 to 3 feet
                                                        > minimum and.... I couldn't tell you interval, I would say they were
                                                        > moderately steep. Periodically the waves and hull action would combine
                                                        > to cause momentary ventilation. It wasn't a sustained condition and so
                                                        > the rudder wasn't exposed long enough to allow the boat to loose bearing.
                                                        >
                                                        > I don't know how much ventilation an outboard can take before it
                                                        > sustains damage. Some of our engineering types may have an opinion.
                                                        >

                                                        A float switch on the shaft that idled down the engine to prevent
                                                        ventilation comes to mind.

                                                        Marty
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