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Deck beam scantlings

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  • tmalcolm
    I know this is a little off topic but I could do with a bit of advice from the boatbuilders and naval architects in the group, so here goes: My current boat is
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 2, 2013
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      I know this is a little off topic but I could do with a bit of advice from the boatbuilders and naval architects in the group, so here goes:

      My current boat is a 1958 Chinook 34 and is a complete rebuild. She has a FRP hull and encapsulated balast, everything else is constructed as a traditional wooden boat. Unfortunately termite got into the deck beams and carlins so they need to be replaced. I would like to rebuild this boat as offshore capable and so have been calculating deck and deck beam scantlings.

      The original deck is 3 layers of 1/4" plywood, giving a 3/4" thick deck, canvas sheathed. Geer's rules give a 3/4" sheathed deck for offshore, the ABS rules for unsheathed plywood (unrestricted use) give 0.763" deck thickness, applying the rule for a sheathed wood deck reduces a sheathed plywood deck to 0.7" thick.

      The original beams are all 1 5/8" x 2 1/2" spaced 8" OC on fore and aft deck, 9"OC on the side decks.
      Geer's rules give me a beam dimension of 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
      ABS FRP rules (unrestricted) give 1 5/8" x 2 3/4"
      ABS Offshore Racing Yachts rules give 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
      Both ABS scantlings were calculated for a Douglas Fir laminated beam with 6ft span spaced 8" OC.

      With all these scantlings produced by different rules what should I use? Assuming it's safe to apply the wood sheathing rule to plywood, a 3/4" thich sheathed deck will be OK. The deck beams are more of a puzzle.

      Thanks,
      Tim.
    • David Morgan
      They aren t that far apart.  If you entered your data correctly, the Geers and Racing are the same.  I d go with the thickest dimension in each direction.
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 2, 2013
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        They aren't that far apart.  If you entered your data correctly, the Geers and Racing are the same.  I'd go with the thickest dimension in each direction.  1 5/8 x 2 3/4.     

        I'm not familiar with Geers.  I would speculate that the racing spec is allowed lighter scantlings for weight considerations, and unrestricted would apply to all others.  I don't believe the weight difference will have significant bearing at that position. 

        I'm not, properly, a trained engineer.  I have had some formal training in engineering and in boat building.  

        David
        Bremerton, WA
        1968 C-22 #1109
        "Eaglet"


        From: "tim@..." <tim@...>
        To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:25 AM
        Subject: CYOA - Deck beam scantlings

         
        I know this is a little off topic but I could do with a bit of advice from the boatbuilders and naval architects in the group, so here goes:

        My current boat is a 1958 Chinook 34 and is a complete rebuild. She has a FRP hull and encapsulated balast, everything else is constructed as a traditional wooden boat. Unfortunately termite got into the deck beams and carlins so they need to be replaced. I would like to rebuild this boat as offshore capable and so have been calculating deck and deck beam scantlings.

        The original deck is 3 layers of 1/4" plywood, giving a 3/4" thick deck, canvas sheathed. Geer's rules give a 3/4" sheathed deck for offshore, the ABS rules for unsheathed plywood (unrestricted use) give 0.763" deck thickness, applying the rule for a sheathed wood deck reduces a sheathed plywood deck to 0.7" thick.

        The original beams are all 1 5/8" x 2 1/2" spaced 8" OC on fore and aft deck, 9"OC on the side decks.
        Geer's rules give me a beam dimension of 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
        ABS FRP rules (unrestricted) give 1 5/8" x 2 3/4"
        ABS Offshore Racing Yachts rules give 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
        Both ABS scantlings were calculated for a Douglas Fir laminated beam with 6ft span spaced 8" OC.

        With all these scantlings produced by different rules what should I use? Assuming it's safe to apply the wood sheathing rule to plywood, a 3/4" thich sheathed deck will be OK. The deck beams are more of a puzzle.

        Thanks,
        Tim.


      • tmalcolm
        David, Your mentioning weight considerations had me thinking, using the larger scantlings for deck beams will have very little overall impact on topsides
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 2, 2013
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          David,


          Your mentioning weight considerations had me thinking, using the larger scantlings for deck beams will have very little overall impact on topsides weight. In addition I'll be going from solid teak coach house sides to plywood. Another benefit of using ABS calculations throughout is that deck beams are sized by span, so the beam scantlings will decrease along with the spans.


          A related question - using ABS rules, how would 'heavy beam' scantlings be calculated? I can't find any mention of heavy beams in the text.


          BTW It should have been Gerr's rules, forgive the typo.

          --Tim


          ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          They aren't that far apart.  If you entered your data correctly, the Geers and Racing are the same.  I'd go with the thickest dimension in each direction.  1 5/8 x 2 3/4.     

          I'm not familiar with Geers.  I would speculate that the racing spec is allowed lighter scantlings for weight considerations, and unrestricted would apply to all others.  I don't believe the weight difference will have significant bearing at that position. 

          I'm not, properly, a trained engineer.  I have had some formal training in engineering and in boat building.  

          David
          Bremerton, WA
          1968 C-22 #1109
          "Eaglet"


          From: "tim@..." <tim@...>
          To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:25 AM
          Subject: CYOA - Deck beam scantlings

           
          I know this is a little off topic but I could do with a bit of advice from the boatbuilders and naval architects in the group, so here goes:

          My current boat is a 1958 Chinook 34 and is a complete rebuild. She has a FRP hull and encapsulated balast, everything else is constructed as a traditional wooden boat. Unfortunately termite got into the deck beams and carlins so they need to be replaced. I would like to rebuild this boat as offshore capable and so have been calculating deck and deck beam scantlings.

          The original deck is 3 layers of 1/4" plywood, giving a 3/4" thick deck, canvas sheathed. Geer's rules give a 3/4" sheathed deck for offshore, the ABS rules for unsheathed plywood (unrestricted use) give 0.763" deck thickness, applying the rule for a sheathed wood deck reduces a sheathed plywood deck to 0.7" thick.

          The original beams are all 1 5/8" x 2 1/2" spaced 8" OC on fore and aft deck, 9"OC on the side decks.
          Geer's rules give me a beam dimension of 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
          ABS FRP rules (unrestricted) give 1 5/8" x 2 3/4"
          ABS Offshore Racing Yachts rules give 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
          Both ABS scantlings were calculated for a Douglas Fir laminated beam with 6ft span spaced 8" OC.

          With all these scantlings produced by different rules what should I use? Assuming it's safe to apply the wood sheathing rule to plywood, a 3/4" thich sheathed deck will be OK. The deck beams are more of a puzzle.

          Thanks,
          Tim.


        • David Morgan
          Heavy beams (aka king beams) are full span transverse deck (or cabin) beams that support an other structure, as a hatch, mast, tow bitt, etc.  They may be 2
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 3, 2013
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            Heavy beams (aka king beams) are full span transverse deck (or cabin) beams that support an other structure, as a hatch, mast, tow bitt, etc.  They may be 2 to 2.5 times the width of "regular" beams.  Width in this case being the fore and aft (horizontal) dimension.  

            The beams immediately fore and aft of the mast would both be heavy (or king) beams.  
             
            David
            Bremerton, WA
            1968 C-22 #1109
            "Eaglet"


            From: "tim@..." <tim@...>
            To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:08 PM
            Subject: RE: Re: CYOA - Deck beam scantlings

             
            David,

            Your mentioning weight considerations had me thinking, using the larger scantlings for deck beams will have very little overall impact on topsides weight. In addition I'll be going from solid teak coach house sides to plywood. Another benefit of using ABS calculations throughout is that deck beams are sized by span, so the beam scantlings will decrease along with the spans.

            A related question - using ABS rules, how would 'heavy beam' scantlings be calculated? I can't find any mention of heavy beams in the text.

            BTW It should have been Gerr's rules, forgive the typo.

            --Tim


            ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            They aren't that far apart.  If you entered your data correctly, the Geers and Racing are the same.  I'd go with the thickest dimension in each direction.  1 5/8 x 2 3/4.     

            I'm not familiar with Geers.  I would speculate that the racing spec is allowed lighter scantlings for weight considerations, and unrestricted would apply to all others.  I don't believe the weight difference will have significant bearing at that position. 

            I'm not, properly, a trained engineer.  I have had some formal training in engineering and in boat building.  

            David
            Bremerton, WA
            1968 C-22 #1109
            "Eaglet"


            From: "tim@..." <tim@...>
            To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:25 AM
            Subject: CYOA - Deck beam scantlings

             
            I know this is a little off topic but I could do with a bit of advice from the boatbuilders and naval architects in the group, so here goes:

            My current boat is a 1958 Chinook 34 and is a complete rebuild. She has a FRP hull and encapsulated balast, everything else is constructed as a traditional wooden boat. Unfortunately termite got into the deck beams and carlins so they need to be replaced. I would like to rebuild this boat as offshore capable and so have been calculating deck and deck beam scantlings.

            The original deck is 3 layers of 1/4" plywood, giving a 3/4" thick deck, canvas sheathed. Geer's rules give a 3/4" sheathed deck for offshore, the ABS rules for unsheathed plywood (unrestricted use) give 0.763" deck thickness, applying the rule for a sheathed wood deck reduces a sheathed plywood deck to 0.7" thick.

            The original beams are all 1 5/8" x 2 1/2" spaced 8" OC on fore and aft deck, 9"OC on the side decks.
            Geer's rules give me a beam dimension of 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
            ABS FRP rules (unrestricted) give 1 5/8" x 2 3/4"
            ABS Offshore Racing Yachts rules give 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
            Both ABS scantlings were calculated for a Douglas Fir laminated beam with 6ft span spaced 8" OC.

            With all these scantlings produced by different rules what should I use? Assuming it's safe to apply the wood sheathing rule to plywood, a 3/4" thich sheathed deck will be OK. The deck beams are more of a puzzle.

            Thanks,
            Tim.




          • pajama1lama
            David, I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building. I wonder about the new
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 4, 2013
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              David,

              I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building. 

              I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

              Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

              Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

              If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant beams.

              In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

              Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantling rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

              Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

              I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

              ~ pete   

               

               



              ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Heavy beams (aka king beams) are full span transverse deck (or cabin) beams that support an other structure, as a hatch, mast, tow bitt, etc.  They may be 2 to 2.5 times the width of "regular" beams.  Width in this case being the fore and aft (horizontal) dimension.  

              The beams immediately fore and aft of the mast would both be heavy (or king) beams.  
               
              David
              Bremerton, WA
              1968 C-22 #1109
              "Eaglet"

              From: "tim@..." <tim@...>
              To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:08 PM
              Subject: RE: Re: CYOA - Deck beam scantlings

               
              David,

              Your mentioning weight considerations had me thinking, using the larger scantlings for deck beams will have very little overall impact on topsides weight. In addition I'll be going from solid teak coach house sides to plywood. Another benefit of using ABS calculations throughout is that deck beams are sized by span, so the beam scantlings will decrease along with the spans.

              A related question - using ABS rules, how would 'heavy beam' scantlings be calculated? I can't find any mention of heavy beams in the text.

              BTW It should have been Gerr's rules, forgive the typo.

              --Tim


              ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              They aren't that far apart.  If you entered your data correctly, the Geers and Racing are the same.  I'd go with the thickest dimension in each direction.  1 5/8 x 2 3/4.     

              I'm not familiar with Geers.  I would speculate that the racing spec is allowed lighter scantlings for weight considerations, and unrestricted would apply to all others.  I don't believe the weight difference will have significant bearing at that position. 

              I'm not, properly, a trained engineer.  I have had some formal training in engineering and in boat building.  

              David
              Bremerton, WA
              1968 C-22 #1109
              "Eaglet"

              From: "tim@..." <tim@...>
              To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, October 2, 2013 10:25 AM
              Subject: CYOA - Deck beam scantlings

               
              I know this is a little off topic but I could do with a bit of advice from the boatbuilders and naval architects in the group, so here goes:

              My current boat is a 1958 Chinook 34 and is a complete rebuild. She has a FRP hull and encapsulated balast, everything else is constructed as a traditional wooden boat. Unfortunately termite got into the deck beams and carlins so they need to be replaced. I would like to rebuild this boat as offshore capable and so have been calculating deck and deck beam scantlings.

              The original deck is 3 layers of 1/4" plywood, giving a 3/4" thick deck, canvas sheathed. Geer's rules give a 3/4" sheathed deck for offshore, the ABS rules for unsheathed plywood (unrestricted use) give 0.763" deck thickness, applying the rule for a sheathed wood deck reduces a sheathed plywood deck to 0.7" thick.

              The original beams are all 1 5/8" x 2 1/2" spaced 8" OC on fore and aft deck, 9"OC on the side decks.
              Geer's rules give me a beam dimension of 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
              ABS FRP rules (unrestricted) give 1 5/8" x 2 3/4"
              ABS Offshore Racing Yachts rules give 1 1/4" x 2 1/2"
              Both ABS scantlings were calculated for a Douglas Fir laminated beam with 6ft span spaced 8" OC.

              With all these scantlings produced by different rules what should I use? Assuming it's safe to apply the wood sheathing rule to plywood, a 3/4" thich sheathed deck will be OK. The deck beams are more of a puzzle.

              Thanks,
              Tim.




            • cchl74
              West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It s about 400 pages of very detailed how to . If you are interested, I can chase
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 4, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                       Bruce K
                       Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                       Los Lunas, NM 


                David,

                I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                ~ pete   



              • cchl74
                The reference is: The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction , by Meade Gougeon. Available for around $40. Bruce K Challenger # 74, Ouroboros Los Lunas, NM
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 4, 2013
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                  The reference is: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction", by Meade Gougeon. Available for around $40.


                           Bruce K
                           Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                           Los Lunas, NM 




                  West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                         Bruce K
                         Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                         Los Lunas, NM


                  David,

                  I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                  I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                  Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                  Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                  If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                  In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                  Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                  Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                  I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                  ~ pete   

                • Harry James
                  5th Edition http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/GougeonBook%20061205.pdf Repair manual
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 4, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    5th Edition

                    http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/GougeonBook%20061205.pdf

                    Repair manual

                    http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/Fiberglass-Boat-Repair-and-Maintenance.pdf

                    HJ

                    On 10/4/2013 4:23 AM, Kbjmjrb@... wrote:
                    West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                           Bruce K
                           Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                           Los Lunas, NM 


                    David,

                    I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                    I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                    Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                    Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                    If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                    In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                    Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                    Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                    I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                    ~ pete   




                  • Dan Oliver
                    Harry, thanks for the links.....   Dan Oliver Alamitos Bay Long Beach,Ca ________________________________ From: Harry James To:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 4, 2013
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                      Harry, thanks for the links.....
                       
                      Dan Oliver
                      Alamitos Bay
                      Long Beach,Ca


                      From: Harry James <welshman@...>
                      To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, October 4, 2013 10:15 AM
                      Subject: Re: CYOA - Deck beam scantlings

                       
                      On 10/4/2013 4:23 AM, Kbjmjrb@... wrote:
                      West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                             Bruce K
                             Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                             Los Lunas, NM 


                      David,

                      I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                      I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                      Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                      Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                      If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                      In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                      Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                      Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                      I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                      ~ pete   






                    • pajama1lama
                      Those guys have done some great work. I ran across their Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique (WEST) in the late 1970 s in an article or trade journal, when they
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 5, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Those guys have done some great work. I ran across their Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique (WEST) in the late 1970's in an article or trade journal, when they were building cold-molded Western red cedar boats, laminated with epoxy. As they advanced their practice the developed techniques and materials that became the WEST product line. I really wanted to try my hand at that but was too broke to build anything that required new materials. Some things don't change, much. Anyway, the technique of molding on temporary frames, and then knocking the frames out and finding what remains: a smooth, gleaming wood interior to the hull skin...that was ingenious. Makes me want to go see some pictures of their work....

                        ~ pete  



                        ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        The reference is: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction", by Meade Gougeon. Available for around $40.


                                 Bruce K
                                 Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                 Los Lunas, NM 




                        West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                               Bruce K
                               Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                               Los Lunas, NM


                        David,

                        I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                        I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                        Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                        Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                        If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                        In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                        Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                        Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                        I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                        ~ pete   

                      • Harry James
                        Pete The ideas that the Gougeon s pulled together for modern composite wood building are neat and I have long been a fan. I have a project I would like to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 5, 2013
                        Pete

                        The ideas that the Gougeon's pulled together for modern composite wood building are neat and I have long been a fan. I have a project  I would like to apply then to also but it is far enough down the bucket list that time will probably not allow.

                        Back in the early 30's Swedish designer named Knud Reimers designed a boat called the Tumlaren. It was designed to the 20 square meter rule, and was not as extreme in the overhangs as many of the "Skerry " cruisers were. There were 600 or so built over the years and there were classes in the US, Canada and in Australia and maybe elsewhere.  Occasionally a new one is still built. They were very lightly built with composite frames ie every 3rd frame was steel and I think the floors were also. The boat would make a great cold molded project. My father built one in 1936 and maintained the it was the best boat he built for the rest of his life (not the construction job but the boat itself). She was scratch boat in her class on SF bay until the early 60's. My mother , who was the racing helmsman (helmsperson?) in the family would lite up and wax rhapsodic for a long time on just how perfectly balance she was on the helm.

                        My vision of a Tumlaren is diagonal inner skins of spruce with the outer layer laid and spiled traditional, full length yellow cedar above the water line. Finished clear with an inlaid red cedar stripe accent just bellow the sheer. The name would be inlaid red cedar.  The name?----piece de resistance.

                        Here is the profile, you can see where my appreciation of the sheer and balanced overhangs of the Col 40, 38 and Constellation comes from, he said effortlessly turning back the conversation to on topic. 




                        HJ


                        On 10/5/2013 5:07 AM, petemalone@... wrote:

                        Those guys have done some great work. I ran across their Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique (WEST) in the late 1970's in an article or trade journal, when they were building cold-molded Western red cedar boats, laminated with epoxy. As they advanced their practice the developed techniques and materials that became the WEST product line. I really wanted to try my hand at that but was too broke to build anything that required new materials. Some things don't change, much. Anyway, the technique of molding on temporary frames, and then knocking the frames out and finding what remains: a smooth, gleaming wood interior to the hull skin...that was ingenious. Makes me want to go see some pictures of their work....

                        ~ pete  



                        ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        The reference is: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction", by Meade Gougeon. Available for around $40.


                                 Bruce K
                                 Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                 Los Lunas, NM 




                        West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                               Bruce K
                               Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                               Los Lunas, NM


                        David,

                        I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                        I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                        Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                        Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                        If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                        In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                        Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                        Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                        I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                        ~ pete   


                      • pajama1lama
                        Tim, I apologize if this message is out of order in the thread, but I frankly can t tell how Yahoo has organized the messages. At one point you asked about
                        Message 12 of 20 , Oct 6, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment

                          Tim,

                          I apologize if this message is out of order in the thread, but I frankly can't tell how Yahoo has organized the messages.

                          At one point you asked about which dimensions to follow.

                          I think you already have good information in the original builder's sides, widths and spacing of beams.

                          At 8" OC, you will have no give in a 3/4" deck, and the 1-5/8" X (whatever you wrote damn Yahoo in line editing is out, it seems), the beam sizes are slightly more than conservative rules like Nevins'.

                          If you wanted to work harder, and laminate three layers of 1/4" plywood with broad laps, laid in epoxy adhesive, that would seem OCD, but would be akin to the specs they wrote in the old days. 

                          Was the original beams laminated, or solid wood?

                           

                          If you choose to make from epoxy saturated strips laminated with epoxy adhesive, you would have a system a little stronger than original, and with future decay inhibited by the epoxy saturation. JMHO

                           

                          Oh, I went flying yesterday with a designer and programmer for ShopBot, and they have a new portable CNC machine that cuts stepped scarfs in X-Y-Z steps, perfect digitally-imaged scarfs, with the cutting program delivered wirelessly from a lap top or tablet. I'm too old to go that route, but it is out there on the edge for you younger guys who want to go for it. Want to try out for West Coast sales and service?

                           

                          ~ pete     



                          ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <welshman@...> wrote:

                          Pete

                          The ideas that the Gougeon's pulled together for modern composite wood building are neat and I have long been a fan. I have a project  I would like to apply then to also but it is far enough down the bucket list that time will probably not allow.

                          Back in the early 30's Swedish designer named Knud Reimers designed a boat called the Tumlaren. It was designed to the 20 square meter rule, and was not as extreme in the overhangs as many of the "Skerry " cruisers were. There were 600 or so built over the years and there were classes in the US, Canada and in Australia and maybe elsewhere.  Occasionally a new one is still built. They were very lightly built with composite frames ie every 3rd frame was steel and I think the floors were also. The boat would make a great cold molded project. My father built one in 1936 and maintained the it was the best boat he built for the rest of his life (not the construction job but the boat itself). She was scratch boat in her class on SF bay until the early 60's. My mother , who was the racing helmsman (helmsperson?) in the family would lite up and wax rhapsodic for a long time on just how perfectly balance she was on the helm.

                          My vision of a Tumlaren is diagonal inner skins of spruce with the outer layer laid and spiled traditional, full length yellow cedar above the water line. Finished clear with an inlaid red cedar stripe accent just bellow the sheer. The name would be inlaid red cedar.  The name?----piece de resistance.

                          Here is the profile, you can see where my appreciation of the sheer and balanced overhangs of the Col 40, 38 and Constellation comes from, he said effortlessly turning back the conversation to on topic. 




                          HJ


                          On 10/5/2013 5:07 AM, petemalone@... wrote:

                          Those guys have done some great work. I ran across their Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique (WEST) in the late 1970's in an article or trade journal, when they were building cold-molded Western red cedar boats, laminated with epoxy. As they advanced their practice the developed techniques and materials that became the WEST product line. I really wanted to try my hand at that but was too broke to build anything that required new materials. Some things don't change, much. Anyway, the technique of molding on temporary frames, and then knocking the frames out and finding what remains: a smooth, gleaming wood interior to the hull skin...that was ingenious. Makes me want to go see some pictures of their work....

                          ~ pete  



                          ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          The reference is: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction", by Meade Gougeon. Available for around $40.


                                   Bruce K
                                   Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                   Los Lunas, NM 




                          West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                                 Bruce K
                                 Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                 Los Lunas, NM


                          David,

                          I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                          I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                          Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                          Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                          If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                          In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                          Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                          Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                          I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                          ~ pete   


                        • pajama1lama
                          Here s link to Handi Bot, by Shop Bot. http://www.handibot.com/handibot-apps.php My friend is no-nonsense Russian guy from Kazakhstan, who calls it like it is,
                          Message 13 of 20 , Oct 6, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Here's link to Handi Bot, by Shop Bot.

                            http://www.handibot.com/handibot-apps.php

                            My friend is no-nonsense Russian guy from Kazakhstan, who calls it like it is, and he says this is good stuff, only to get better as people write their own apps and trade/share. 

                            ~ pete



                            ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            Tim,

                            I apologize if this message is out of order in the thread, but I frankly can't tell how Yahoo has organized the messages.

                            At one point you asked about which dimensions to follow.

                            I think you already have good information in the original builder's sides, widths and spacing of beams.

                            At 8" OC, you will have no give in a 3/4" deck, and the 1-5/8" X (whatever you wrote damn Yahoo in line editing is out, it seems), the beam sizes are slightly more than conservative rules like Nevins'.

                            If you wanted to work harder, and laminate three layers of 1/4" plywood with broad laps, laid in epoxy adhesive, that would seem OCD, but would be akin to the specs they wrote in the old days. 

                            Was the original beams laminated, or solid wood?

                             

                            If you choose to make from epoxy saturated strips laminated with epoxy adhesive, you would have a system a little stronger than original, and with future decay inhibited by the epoxy saturation. JMHO

                             

                            Oh, I went flying yesterday with a designer and programmer for ShopBot, and they have a new portable CNC machine that cuts stepped scarfs in X-Y-Z steps, perfect digitally-imaged scarfs, with the cutting program delivered wirelessly from a lap top or tablet. I'm too old to go that route, but it is out there on the edge for you younger guys who want to go for it. Want to try out for West Coast sales and service?

                             

                            ~ pete     



                            ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <welshman@...> wrote:

                            Pete

                            The ideas that the Gougeon's pulled together for modern composite wood building are neat and I have long been a fan. I have a project  I would like to apply then to also but it is far enough down the bucket list that time will probably not allow.

                            Back in the early 30's Swedish designer named Knud Reimers designed a boat called the Tumlaren. It was designed to the 20 square meter rule, and was not as extreme in the overhangs as many of the "Skerry " cruisers were. There were 600 or so built over the years and there were classes in the US, Canada and in Australia and maybe elsewhere.  Occasionally a new one is still built. They were very lightly built with composite frames ie every 3rd frame was steel and I think the floors were also. The boat would make a great cold molded project. My father built one in 1936 and maintained the it was the best boat he built for the rest of his life (not the construction job but the boat itself). She was scratch boat in her class on SF bay until the early 60's. My mother , who was the racing helmsman (helmsperson?) in the family would lite up and wax rhapsodic for a long time on just how perfectly balance she was on the helm.

                            My vision of a Tumlaren is diagonal inner skins of spruce with the outer layer laid and spiled traditional, full length yellow cedar above the water line. Finished clear with an inlaid red cedar stripe accent just bellow the sheer. The name would be inlaid red cedar.  The name?----piece de resistance.

                            Here is the profile, you can see where my appreciation of the sheer and balanced overhangs of the Col 40, 38 and Constellation comes from, he said effortlessly turning back the conversation to on topic. 




                            HJ


                            On 10/5/2013 5:07 AM, petemalone@... wrote:

                            Those guys have done some great work. I ran across their Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique (WEST) in the late 1970's in an article or trade journal, when they were building cold-molded Western red cedar boats, laminated with epoxy. As they advanced their practice the developed techniques and materials that became the WEST product line. I really wanted to try my hand at that but was too broke to build anything that required new materials. Some things don't change, much. Anyway, the technique of molding on temporary frames, and then knocking the frames out and finding what remains: a smooth, gleaming wood interior to the hull skin...that was ingenious. Makes me want to go see some pictures of their work....

                            ~ pete  



                            ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            The reference is: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction", by Meade Gougeon. Available for around $40.


                                     Bruce K
                                     Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                     Los Lunas, NM 




                            West, of West Systems, has a definitive book out on hybrid construction. It's about 400 pages of very detailed "how to". If you are interested, I can chase down the exact reference.

                                   Bruce K
                                   Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                                   Los Lunas, NM


                            David,

                            I wish I could reset the clock and go to a ship building school like you went to, to learn more about craft of boat building.

                            I wonder about the new high efficiency resin adhesives and high modulus fibers used in hybrid with standard boat building practice.

                            Daddy used phenolic glue to laminate horn timber blocks and stem pieces, back when epoxy was a new thing and very expensive. Of course, we outlived the boats, and never saw the failures, if the joints ever did fail.

                            Now I think about a clever young chap like our Tim Malcolm, doing this rebuilding work, and all the opportunities to use new materials to optimize an older design.

                            If one had time to develop the technique of hybrid laminating wood beams with interposing layers of high modulus carbon or basalt fiber tape, and sided with multiple layers of carbon in the vertical plane, one could build some very light, strong and water permeation resistant  beams.

                            In looking at pictures of the Chinook, however, the cabin top beams being curved, and with appreciable camber of the top going forward, means the beam ends change shape and have different end profiles. That makes for a lot of individual shapes to be laid out and made. I would have to think about a compromise on the roof lines to make a chine, rather than rounded top. Don't know, the look is very classic, and what I am contemplating may destroy that look.

                            Oh, I also meant to say that the 2.0 times beam siding you mention for king beams (partners at masts and hatch beams) is actually heavier than specified by the old wooden boat designers, but modern thought may prevail. Nevins' scantling rules say 1.75 times, and he was reputed to be a heavier builder than Herreshoff. The latter man being famous for sweet designs, also was prone to going to the edge, and it is noted that you don't go any lighter on his scantli ng rules without risking failure. They were trying to make wooden boats light and competitive, so maybe more conservative beam sizes are safer. Its hard to know which route to follow, but you can point to the survival of their designs, even though the opinions about them persisted for a reason.

                            Tim, I'm wondering if you have enough parts remaining in shape to copy from the original build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be helpful to have original shop drawings, if those are available in the owner's association. I can scan and email copies of scantling rules and tables, if you think that would be any help.

                            I for one admire you for diving into this project, and I believe you have the stuff to see it through, if you keep at it and other things don't take precedence. It takes a well ordered life to keep a project like this percolating on the side. Steady Going...

                            ~ pete   


                          • Tim Malcolm
                            Hi Pete. Thanks for the ideas and the comments on scantlings. It s all very contradictory! It seams as though Herreshoff built relatively light based on the
                            Message 14 of 20 , Oct 7, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Pete.

                              Thanks for the ideas and the comments on scantlings. It's all very
                              contradictory! It seams as though Herreshoff built relatively light
                              based on the understanding that his boats were engineered to 'absorb'
                              stresses by flexing. Researching Nevins' rules I get the same
                              impression, he was a
                              heavier builder than Herreshoff.

                              The ABS rules are confusing!! It appears that there are two sets of
                              applicable rules, one set for offshore racing yachts (presumably FRP
                              construction), and another general set for FRP yachts. The rules for FRP
                              yachts include choices for sail vs. motor, and three different use types
                              that (for clarity) I'm calling offshore, inshore and inland. Then with
                              the rules for beams, etc. there are choices for FRP laminate hollow
                              beams, FRP laminate cored beams, and solid wood beams.

                              And then there are Gerr's rules, one of the most accessible sets of
                              rules for amateur builders.

                              I ran spreadsheets for ABS racing yachts, ABS FRP offshore, and Gerr,
                              then compared the numbers to the existing boat:
                              - when rounded up, both ABS and Gerr give the same scantlings for deck,
                              coach house sides and roof,
                              - ABS racing and the existing boat are identical in some areas,
                              - ABS FRP offshore and Gerr are identical in some areas
                              - Gerr is somewhere inbetween ABS racing and ABS FRP offshore,
                              - Gerr is mostly heavier than the existing boat.

                              Interstingly ABS FRP offshore scantlings may produce the lightest
                              collection of wood beams because the rules are based on beam span, so
                              scantlings decrease, both fore and aft, from the widest point amidships.

                              At this point, I'm leaning towards ABS FRP offshore and need to do some
                              spreadsheet work to estimate topsides weight based on hollow or solid
                              beams and various coach house choices.

                              > I'm wondering if you have enough parts
                              > remaining in shape to copy from the original
                              > build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be
                              > helpful to have original shop drawings, if those
                              > are available in the owner's association.

                              Fortunately very little is at the point of crumbling. Unfortunately
                              almost everything is damaged except for the original hull laminate.
                              Once the deck is off it'll be easier to assess the beams. Some are
                              laminated, some are solid. Forward of the coach house a few of the beams
                              have delaminated. Most of the half beams and the carlins under the side
                              deck appear to have termite damage. The big unknown is the shear clamp.
                              It's a lamination of 2 boards, heavily varnished, bedded and screwed to
                              the hull. Keeping my fingers crossed but expecting to replace it.

                              Drawings are an area where there's lots of information. There's a small
                              email group of owners, several of whom have original drawings. I already
                              have digital photos and am waiting on full size copies. Geiger's
                              original Vigilant class plans that the Chinook 34 molds were lofted from
                              are in the archives at Mystic, ordering copies is on the todo list.

                              One of my major dilemmas is that Geiger designed the Vigilant class as
                              an offshore racing yacht, Yacht Costructors built and sold thier FRP
                              version as a inshore/river day sail, and I want to reconfigure Hull #8
                              for passage making. Assuming the ABS FRP offshore scantlings don't put
                              significant weight above the waterline, I'm confident that the interior
                              can be substantially reconfigured.


                              --Tim
                            • Tim Malcolm
                              Handibot looks like a great tool. --Tim
                              Message 15 of 20 , Oct 7, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Handibot looks like a great tool.

                                --Tim
                              • pajama1lama
                                Freakin long wait for the Lincoln ad to load to the log-in page, so I could finally log in without freezing up...took 3 tries...!! So, yes, the Quickstart or
                                Message 16 of 20 , Oct 7, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Freakin long wait for the Lincoln ad to load to the log-in page, so I could finally log in without freezing up...took 3 tries...!! 

                                  So, yes, the Quickstart or Kickstart or whatever you call it campaign to capitalize the Handibot product offering was budgeted to raise $200,000, but they got $325,000 before the end of campaign.

                                  So, they now have to build and deliver to early adopters (sp?) Nice problem to have.

                                  Noticing they are seeking fabricators on 100Kgarages to make product. Don't know if that means parts or complete units.

                                  Anyway, I would have to quit my job to have time to learn to program and use the tool, so that would leave no way to pay for it.

                                  Is the opposite condition of keeping a job why there are so many unused tools of all descriptions in home workshops all over America, or is it some other reason?.....just asking....

                                  ~ pete



                                  ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                  Handibot looks like a great tool.

                                  --Tim
                                • pajama1lama
                                  You have reasoned well, Tim. Anyway, I m convinced from what you wrote that following the ABS FRP rules will give you your safety factor. Another consideration
                                  Message 17 of 20 , Oct 7, 2013
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                                    You have reasoned well, Tim.

                                    Anyway, I'm convinced from what you wrote that following the ABS FRP rules will give you your safety factor.

                                    Another consideration in any method is the fit of parts, and efficiency of joining techniques.

                                    I bet you could take a slightly conservative approach using Gerr's rules, and look for ways to strengthen attachments with high-modulus fiber reinforcement, then end up with a very strong and sea worthy hull and deck, but not have to worry about added weight. It may very well be that copying the original while reconstructing with better techniques and modern materials will do it all for you.

                                    Idle question: Was Chinook's negative mold direct-molded off of a Vigilant hull, or was an original plug built from the Vigilant lines? I read the story, but forget.

                                    Emilie's trying to quit work (retire), so if I end up homeless in the process, can I pitch a tent in your boatyard and lend a hand? (will work for beans and ginger ale.....)

                                    ~ pete

                                      

                                     



                                    ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                    Hi Pete.

                                    Thanks for the ideas and the comments on scantlings. It's all very
                                    contradictory! It seams as though Herreshoff built relatively light
                                    based on the understanding that his boats were engineered to 'absorb'
                                    stresses by flexing. Researching Nevins' rules I get the same
                                    impression, he was a
                                    heavier builder than Herreshoff.

                                    The ABS rules are confusing!! It appears that there are two sets of
                                    applicable rules, one set for offshore racing yachts (presumably FRP
                                    construction), and another general set for FRP yachts. The rules for FRP
                                    yachts include choices for sail vs. motor, and three different use types
                                    that (for clarity) I'm calling offshore, inshore and inland. Then with
                                    the rules for beams, etc. there are choices for FRP laminate hollow
                                    beams, FRP laminate cored beams, and solid wood beams.

                                    And then there are Gerr's rules, one of the most accessible sets of
                                    rules for amateur builders.

                                    I ran spreadsheets for ABS racing yachts, ABS FRP offshore, and Gerr,
                                    then compared the numbers to the existing boat:
                                    - when rounded up, both ABS and Gerr give the same scantlings for deck,
                                    coach house sides and roof,
                                    - ABS racing and the existing boat are identical in some areas,
                                    - ABS FRP offshore and Gerr are identical in some areas
                                    - Gerr is somewhere inbetween ABS racing and ABS FRP offshore,
                                    - Gerr is mostly heavier than the existing boat.

                                    Interstingly ABS FRP offshore scantlings may produce the lightest
                                    collection of wood beams because the rules are based on beam span, so
                                    scantlings decrease, both fore and aft, from the widest point amidships.

                                    At this point, I'm leaning towards ABS FRP offshore and need to do some
                                    spreadsheet work to estimate topsides weight based on hollow or solid
                                    beams and various coach house choices.

                                    > I'm wondering if you have enough parts
                                    > remaining in shape to copy from the original
                                    > build, or is it mostly crumbly? It would be
                                    > helpful to have original shop drawings, if those
                                    > are available in the owner's association.

                                    Fortunately very little is at the point of crumbling. Unfortunately
                                    almost everything is damaged except for the original hull laminate.
                                    Once the deck is off it'll be easier to assess the beams. Some are
                                    laminated, some are solid. Forward of the coach house a few of the beams
                                    have delaminated. Most of the half beams and the carlins under the side
                                    deck appear to have termite damage. The big unknown is the shear clamp.
                                    It's a lamination of 2 boards, heavily varnished, bedded and screwed to
                                    the hull. Keeping my fingers crossed but expecting to replace it.

                                    Drawings are an area where there's lots of information. There's a small
                                    email group of owners, several of whom have original drawings. I already
                                    have digital photos and am waiting on full size copies. Geiger's
                                    original Vigilant class plans that the Chinook 34 molds were lofted from
                                    are in the archives at Mystic, ordering copies is on the todo list.

                                    One of my major dilemmas is that Geiger designed the Vigilant class as
                                    an offshore racing yacht, Yacht Costructors built and sold thier FRP
                                    version as a inshore/river day sail, and I want to reconfigure Hull #8
                                    for passage making. Assuming the ABS FRP offshore scantlings don't put
                                    significant weight above the waterline, I'm confident that the interior
                                    can be substantially reconfigured.


                                    --Tim
                                  • Harry James
                                    Ain t no unused tools in this shop and there is a plethora of tools. HJ
                                    Message 18 of 20 , Oct 7, 2013
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                                      Ain't no unused tools in this shop

                                      and there is a plethora of tools.

                                      HJ

                                      On 10/7/2013 4:34 PM, petemalone@... wrote:

                                      Freakin long wait for the Lincoln ad to load to the log-in page, so I could finally log in without freezing up...took 3 tries...!! 

                                      So, yes, the Quickstart or Kickstart or whatever you call it campaign to capitalize the Handibot product offering was budgeted to raise $200,000, but they got $325,000 before the end of campaign.

                                      So, they now have to build and deliver to early adopters (sp?) Nice problem to have.

                                      Noticing they are seeking fabricators on 100Kgarages to make product. Don't know if that means parts or complete units.

                                      Anyway, I would have to quit my job to have time to learn to program and use the tool, so that would leave no way to pay for it.

                                      Is the opposite condition of keeping a job why there are so many unused tools of all descriptions in home workshops all over America, or is it some other reason?.....just asking....

                                      ~ pete



                                      ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                      Handibot looks like a great tool.

                                      --Tim

                                    • Harry James
                                      I have to correct this, I went and looked at my tools and the Porter Cable 15 ga heavy duty finish nailer hasn t had a use since I finished building the house,
                                      Message 19 of 20 , Oct 7, 2013
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                                        I have to correct this, I went and looked at my tools and the Porter Cable 15 ga heavy duty finish nailer hasn't had a use since I finished building the house, the 18 ga gets all the action now.

                                        HJ


                                        On 10/7/2013 6:13 PM, Harry James wrote:
                                        Ain't no unused tools in this shop

                                        and there is a plethora of tools.

                                        HJ

                                        On 10/7/2013 4:34 PM, petemalone@... wrote:

                                        Freakin long wait for the Lincoln ad to load to the log-in page, so I could finally log in without freezing up...took 3 tries...!! 

                                        So, yes, the Quickstart or Kickstart or whatever you call it campaign to capitalize the Handibot product offering was budgeted to raise $200,000, but they got $325,000 before the end of campaign.

                                        So, they now have to build and deliver to early adopters (sp?) Nice problem to have.

                                        Noticing they are seeking fabricators on 100Kgarages to make product. Don't know if that means parts or complete units.

                                        Anyway, I would have to quit my job to have time to learn to program and use the tool, so that would leave no way to pay for it.

                                        Is the opposite condition of keeping a job why there are so many unused tools of all descriptions in home workshops all over America, or is it some other reason?.....just asking....

                                        ~ pete



                                        ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                        Handibot looks like a great tool.

                                        --Tim


                                      • pajama1lama
                                        Honest Man!! Anyway, what would you do with a job....?? BTW, been meaning to say thanks for posting the WEST manuals. I had an early edition, but this latest
                                        Message 20 of 20 , Oct 8, 2013
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                                          Honest Man!!

                                          Anyway, what would you do with a job....??

                                          BTW, been meaning to say thanks for posting the WEST manuals.

                                          I had an early edition, but this latest looks to be many more pages, and most welcome.

                                          Think i'll go look at it now, to see what I've been missing.

                                          The job can wait (a few minutes, he muttered, while scurrying around in the dark, delaying the inevitable) 

                                          ~ pete



                                          ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                          I have to correct this, I went and looked at my tools and the Porter Cable 15 ga heavy duty finish nailer hasn't had a use since I finished building the house, the 18 ga gets all the action now.

                                          HJ


                                          On 10/7/2013 6:13 PM, Harry James wrote:
                                          Ain't no unused tools in this shop

                                          and there is a plethora of tools.

                                          HJ

                                          On 10/7/2013 4:34 PM, petemalone@... wrote:

                                          Freakin long wait for the Lincoln ad to load to the log-in page, so I could finally log in without freezing up...took 3 tries...!! 

                                          So, yes, the Quickstart or Kickstart or whatever you call it campaign to capitalize the Handibot product offering was budgeted to raise $200,000, but they got $325,000 before the end of campaign.

                                          So, they now have to build and deliver to early adopters (sp?) Nice problem to have.

                                          Noticing they are seeking fabricators on 100Kgarages to make product. Don't know if that means parts or complete units.

                                          Anyway, I would have to quit my job to have time to learn to program and use the tool, so that would leave no way to pay for it.

                                          Is the opposite condition of keeping a job why there are so many unused tools of all descriptions in home workshops all over America, or is it some other reason?.....just asking....

                                          ~ pete



                                          ---In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                          Handibot looks like a great tool.

                                          --Tim


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