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Re: CYOA - Re: exhaust design ??

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  • cjecje2
    Well, as it always seems with me; there is more to the story. But I had already wrote a whole page explaining just the bit that you know so far. The
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 27, 2013
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      Well, as it always seems with me; there is more to the story. But I had already wrote a whole page explaining just the bit that you know so far. <g>

      The entire exhaust was done wrong: first there was the unsupported riser (actually sticking out at a 45º angle) which was too short / not far above the water line.

      On the cool side of that riser the exhaust went into the water lift muffler.

      From the water lift muffler the steam hose bends a short 90º turn and then runs flat under the cockpit and pretty much straight to the exhaust spud under the counter. And as the exit for the exhaust faces almost straight down - an exterior mounted exhaust flap is not do-able in any effective way.

      The previous owners were accountant / money manager types. The boatyard mechanics were all either stupid or malicious and maybe both as they charged the owners really substantial sums to do dogshit grade work.

      About 12 years ago this boat had a new exhaust system 'upgrade' - all welded stainless steel riser, all new hoses, pipes, water-lift muffler, etc.

      And this boat has also had three new engine in the ten years following that particular upgrade. Why? Because the exhaust system is AFU. But the owners then were not engineers or mechanics so the yard monkeys just kept treating the symptom and never admitting to have effed up the whole thing by their shit-grade work in the first place.

      Now of course that all benefited me because they almost gave me this incredibly well equipped and outfitted boat just to be rid of the "un-solveable" problems it had. <g>

      Now I can just leave my new longer higher exhaust riser in place and I am almost positive that water infiltration will not be a problem for the engine. But I was also curious about how to reduce the heat in the engine compartment and bridge deck. Sure; I can just shove the bilge blower hose up under the bridge deck and run the blower whenever I run the engine. I tried insulating the hot section but more seems to be required.

      Which is what made me both ask and muse about just how that might be done. <g>

      stephen
      ------------




      On Apr 27, 2013, at 10:54 AM, Jim Muri wrote:


      I'm puzzled why you're re-inventing something that has long ago been solved. Which means that I must have missed something in this thread.

      You keep sea water from backing up into the engine by putting a large loop in the exhaust system. You can also put a rubber or spring-loaded flapper at the end of the exhaust where it leaves the boat, so that the exhaust is closed unless the engine is running.

      James R. Muri

      Novelist, Sailor
      BUY: My e-Novels at http://blizzardguy.com/venture/
      SITE: http://blizzardguy.com
      BLOG: http://theostrichkiller.blogspot.com
      From: cjecje2 <cjecje2@...>
      To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 7:44 AM
      Subject: Re: CYOA - Re: exhaust design ??



      What appeals to me the most is this piping arrangement:

      The exhaust flange on the engine manifold
      A 2" long pipe nipple screwed into the flange
      A tee with the side screwed onto the above nipple
      The water injection point into the top of the tee
      The exhaust out the bottom of the tee.

      That would make everything, except the first nipple and half the tee, water-injection cooled. But then how to prevent cooling or seawater water from ever backing up into the engine? A check valve in the exhaust pipe seems unreliable to me. <g>

      Unless you can suggest a better insulating method or material - the only viable alternative I can think of is to water-jacket the exhaust pipe. My 1961 Triton exhaust was done in some way like that. And I think it was copper-in-copper. I know there was no riser or water lift muffler. The water leaving the exhaust manifold entered the exhaust pipe's water jacket and wasn't injected into the exhaust gas until just before the exhaust pipe connected to the exhaust spud / thru-hull at the stern of the boat. I didn't really pay much attention to it - because it never caused any problems. <g>

      stephen
      ----------
    • niebur32
      Engine bolted solid to the hull? No motor mounts? Hm, that is very different from what my A4 has. And yes, I do support the exhaust pipes, but to the motor,
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 27, 2013
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        Engine bolted solid to the hull? No motor mounts? Hm, that is very different from what my A4 has.

        And yes, I do support the exhaust pipes, but to the motor, not the hull.

        --Ernst


        --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, cjecje2 <cjecje2@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > The engine is bolted solid to the engine beds which of course are bonded to the hull. So as the engine doesn't move in relation to the hull - the idea of supporting the long lever-arm of the exhaust pipe with something also solid to the boat seemed reasonable to me. I have and use Unistrut all the time to support refrigerant and other fluid piping so it wasn't a very inventive concept to me. <g>
        >
        > Before the recent re-piping the exhaust was a 24" length of heavy stainless steel pipe, subject to engine vibration and all other boat use/motion stresses, which was just sticking out from the engine two feet and completely unsupported. Supporting the new piping well just seemed prudent to me.
        >
        > stephen
        > -----------
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > On Apr 27, 2013, at 9:20 AM, niebur32 wrote:
        >
        > Hey Stephen, I don't quite parse your exhaust construction. But do I read it right that you fastened your exhaust to the boat with an unistrut (I had to google that)? Is that a good idea, shouldn't the exhaust move with the engine, rather than the boat?
        >
        > I rebuilt my exhaust last year. Come by once you are in your new place and have a look at the exhaust of the good ship Tavernier. The previous version lasted >10 years, at which point the black pipe was rusted out.h
        >
        > --Ernst
        >
        > --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, cjecje2 <cjecje2@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > My exhaust spud is under the stern and almost vertical. Sometimes the engine wouldn't start and I would find the sparkplug gaps shorted with water drops. Apparently when the boat would hobby-horse at the dock water would be forced in, the exhaust would fill, and eventually water would get into the engine. I felt that the hot-portion of the exhaust riser loop was too low.
        > >
        > > So I repiped it and put the riser loop as high up into the bridge deck as possible - about a foot or more higher than before.
        > >
        > > The previous exhaust pipe was un-supported after leaving the exhaust manifold and the 24" lever-arm it formed seemed like a very weak arrangement. In fact; the nipple into the exhaust manifold flange was already cracked about 50% when I removed it.
        > >
        > > So I also mounted a piece of 1 5/8" Unistrut under the bridge deck and used a conduit clamp to secure the top of the new exhaust riser to the unistrut.
        > >
        > > The top of the riser now consists of these items: a vertical pipe nipple up into a 90� ell - a 4" pipe nipple to form the horizontal - a 90� street ell with the male end facing down - and then a tee. The side connection of that tee is where the water is injected.
        > >
        > > I wrapped the hot portion of the exhaust pipe with standard 1 1/2" 'exhaust wrap' tape from the hot rod store. The exhaust was previously wrapped and I re-used that material but as the piping is now longer I bought another 50' of exhaust wrap to finish it. The pieces I cut were longer than actually required so much of the exhaust is now double-layer wrapped.
        > >
        > > Nonetheless; the bridge deck gets hot and the heads of the carriage bolts which secure the unistrut get too hot to touch.
        > >
        > > What else can I use to insulate the hot portion of the exhaust? The thickness doesn't matter as I can get pretty much any size conduit clamp.
        > >
        > > stephen
        > > -----------
        > >
        >
      • harryjak
        The A4 I took out of Sheer was hard bolted to the mounts. It had an un lagged exhaust to standpipe exhaust. I plan on putting in another stand pipe exhaust,
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 28, 2013
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          The A4 I took out of "Sheer" was hard bolted to the mounts. It had an un lagged
          exhaust to standpipe exhaust. I plan on putting in another stand pipe exhaust, the
          engine is so far into the bilge that a water lift won't work. When I get home I
          will copy a picture of the standpipe exhaust out of David Gerr's book and post it.
          I was having some real problems on figuring out what to do before I saw that.

          David Gerr is adamant that if your exhaust is bolted down you need a flexible
          bellows coupling to the engine. I am not sure if that applies if the engine is
          hard mounted.

          HJ


          > My exhaust spud is under the stern and almost vertical. Sometimes the engine
          > wouldn't start and I would find the sparkplug gaps shorted with water drops.
          > Apparently when the boat would hobby-horse at the dock water would be forced in,
          > the exhaust would fill, and eventually water would get into the engine. I felt
          > that the hot-portion of the exhaust riser loop was too low.
          >
          > So I repiped it and put the riser loop as high up into the bridge deck as possible
          > - about a foot or more higher than before.
          >
          > The previous exhaust pipe was un-supported after leaving the exhaust manifold and
          > the 24" lever-arm it formed seemed like a very weak arrangement. In fact; the
          > nipple into the exhaust manifold flange was already cracked about 50% when I
          > removed it.
          >
          > So I also mounted a piece of 1 5/8" Unistrut under the bridge deck and used a
          > conduit clamp to secure the top of the new exhaust riser to the unistrut.
          >
          > The top of the riser now consists of these items: a vertical pipe nipple up into a
          > 90º ell - a 4" pipe nipple to form the horizontal - a 90º street ell with the male
          > end facing down - and then a tee. The side connection of that tee is where the
          > water is injected.
          >
          > I wrapped the hot portion of the exhaust pipe with standard 1 1/2" 'exhaust wrap'
          > tape from the hot rod store. The exhaust was previously wrapped and I re-used that
          > material but as the piping is now longer I bought another 50' of exhaust wrap to
          > finish it. The pieces I cut were longer than actually required so much of the
          > exhaust is now double-layer wrapped.
          >
          > Nonetheless; the bridge deck gets hot and the heads of the carriage bolts which
          > secure the unistrut get too hot to touch.
          >
          > What else can I use to insulate the hot portion of the exhaust? The thickness
          > doesn't matter as I can get pretty much any size conduit clamp.
          >
          > stephen
          > -----------
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Columbia Yacht Owners Association Website:
          > http://www.columbia-yachts.com/
          >
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        • cjecje2
          If you willing to undergo the bodily origami required I will show some of them to when you get back to this part of the planet. What kind of mounts does Your
          Message 4 of 13 , Apr 29, 2013
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            If you willing to undergo the bodily origami required I will show some of them to when you get back to this part of the planet. What kind of mounts does Your A-4 have?

            As people were talking about rubber mounts - I realized that I have never had a boat with a gasoline engine which didn't have the engine bolted directly to the beds. A-2's, A-4's, a Kermath, and a Gray - all bolted solid. On the other hand; all the diesels have been rubber mounted.

            I never gave it much thought before and if properly aligned the gas engines are pretty smooth running.

            stephen
            -----------



            On Apr 27, 2013, at 8:49 PM, niebur32 wrote:

            Engine bolted solid to the hull? No motor mounts? Hm, that is very different from what my A4 has.

            And yes, I do support the exhaust pipes, but to the motor, not the hull.

            --Ernst
            -------------


            --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, cjecje2 <cjecje2@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > The engine is bolted solid to the engine beds which of course are bonded to the hull. So as the engine doesn't move in relation to the hull - the idea of supporting the long lever-arm of the exhaust pipe with something also solid to the boat seemed reasonable to me. I have and use Unistrut all the time to support refrigerant and other fluid piping so it wasn't a very inventive concept to me. <g>
            >
            > Before the recent re-piping the exhaust was a 24" length of heavy stainless steel pipe, subject to engine vibration and all other boat use/motion stresses, which was just sticking out from the engine two feet and completely unsupported. Supporting the new piping well just seemed prudent to me.
            >
            > stephen
            > -----------
          • niebur32
            yes, rubber mounts, that s what I have. Looking forward to seeing your installation.
            Message 5 of 13 , Apr 30, 2013
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              yes, rubber mounts, that's what I have. Looking forward to seeing your installation.



              --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, cjecje2 <cjecje2@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > If you willing to undergo the bodily origami required I will show some of them to when you get back to this part of the planet. What kind of mounts does Your A-4 have?
              >
              > As people were talking about rubber mounts - I realized that I have never had a boat with a gasoline engine which didn't have the engine bolted directly to the beds. A-2's, A-4's, a Kermath, and a Gray - all bolted solid. On the other hand; all the diesels have been rubber mounted.
              >
              > I never gave it much thought before and if properly aligned the gas engines are pretty smooth running.
              >
              > stephen
              > -----------
              >
              >
              >
              > On Apr 27, 2013, at 8:49 PM, niebur32 wrote:
              >
              > Engine bolted solid to the hull? No motor mounts? Hm, that is very different from what my A4 has.
              >
              > And yes, I do support the exhaust pipes, but to the motor, not the hull.
              >
              > --Ernst
              > -------------
              >
              >
              > --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, cjecje2 <cjecje2@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > The engine is bolted solid to the engine beds which of course are bonded to the hull. So as the engine doesn't move in relation to the hull - the idea of supporting the long lever-arm of the exhaust pipe with something also solid to the boat seemed reasonable to me. I have and use Unistrut all the time to support refrigerant and other fluid piping so it wasn't a very inventive concept to me. <g>
              > >
              > > Before the recent re-piping the exhaust was a 24" length of heavy stainless steel pipe, subject to engine vibration and all other boat use/motion stresses, which was just sticking out from the engine two feet and completely unsupported. Supporting the new piping well just seemed prudent to me.
              > >
              > > stephen
              > > -----------
              >
            • cjecje2
              OK. And the cockpit lockers you have to origami yourself into are now polished and sparkling clean too - my clothing has done a remarkably job of moping them
              Message 6 of 13 , Apr 30, 2013
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                OK. And the cockpit lockers you have to origami yourself into are now polished and sparkling clean too - my clothing has done a remarkably job of moping them spotless.

                stephen
                -----------



                On Apr 30, 2013, at 6:40 PM, niebur32 wrote:

                yes, rubber mounts, that's what I have. Looking forward to seeing your installation.

                --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, cjecje2 <cjecje2@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > If you willing to undergo the bodily origami required I will show some of them to when you get back to this part of the planet. What kind of mounts does Your A-4 have?
                >
                > As people were talking about rubber mounts - I realized that I have never had a boat with a gasoline engine which didn't have the engine bolted directly to the beds. A-2's, A-4's, a Kermath, and a Gray - all bolted solid. On the other hand; all the diesels have been rubber mounted.
                >
                > I never gave it much thought before and if properly aligned the gas engines are pretty smooth running.
                >
                > stephen
                > -----------
                >
                >
                >
                > On Apr 27, 2013, at 8:49 PM, niebur32 wrote:
                >
                > Engine bolted solid to the hull? No motor mounts? Hm, that is very different from what my A4 has.
                >
                > And yes, I do support the exhaust pipes, but to the motor, not the hull.
                >
                > --Ernst
                > -------------
                >
                >
                > --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, cjecje2 <cjecje2@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > The engine is bolted solid to the engine beds which of course are bonded to the hull. So as the engine doesn't move in relation to the hull - the idea of supporting the long lever-arm of the exhaust pipe with something also solid to the boat seemed reasonable to me. I have and use Unistrut all the time to support refrigerant and other fluid piping so it wasn't a very inventive concept to me. <g>
                > >
                > > Before the recent re-piping the exhaust was a 24" length of heavy stainless steel pipe, subject to engine vibration and all other boat use/motion stresses, which was just sticking out from the engine two feet and completely unsupported. Supporting the new piping well just seemed prudent to me.
                > >
                > > stephen
                > > -----------
                >
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