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Re: CYOA - was: Can't find my manual. Now: sheeting angles

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  • David Morgan
    I also meant to mention that (I hope) those things are considered by the designers when they put a plan to paper.  I don t have the training nor experience to
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 2, 2013
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      I also meant to mention that (I hope) those things are considered by the designers when they put a plan to paper.  I don't have the training nor experience to rely on in changing something that has (hopefully) already been thought out by someone who should know what they were doing. 

      Not that it can't be done, but with some study and deliberation. 
       
      David
      Bremerton, WA
      1968 C-22 #1109
      "Eaglet"

      From: David Morgan <sapper69k@...>
      To: "columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com" <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 2:36 PM
      Subject: CYOA - was: Can't find my manual. Now: sheeting angles

       
      Jesse

      I stick a foot in here while you're waiting for the smart guys to speak up. 

      Aside from the affect it has on clearing or cluttering your access to the foredeck, depending on where they are situated, I suspect that 1) Moving the shrouds out from the mast increases the stability they offer the mast.  2) It decreases the ability to sheet in your head sails to close hauled when sailing up wind. 

      Conversly:  Moving shrouds inboard from a rail position:  1) Decreases the stability they offer the mast.  2)  Increases the ability to sheet in the sails to a more closely hauled position to allow sailing closer to the wind. 

      So I'm guessing it may not matter as much to a cruiser, and it may matter more to a racer, but some cruisers like to go fast and some racers aren't interested as fast so much as they are steady. 

      But it's all speculation on my part....... And I'm sure there are other considerations. 
       
      David
      Bremerton, WA
      1968 C-22 #1109
      "Eaglet"

      From: Jesse Doyle <jess81452@...>
      To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 11:50 AM
      Subject: RE: CYOA - Re: Can't find my manual

       
      Bruce, I’m thinking of putting my stays on the outside of the hull. I know how to do it because I had a boat wright help me with it on my old Pearson Ariel. I just can’t remember why I did it. Is there any chance you could explain the pros and cons. I know the group had gone over it some time back but without having to scan all the discussions I figure I’d just ask. Thanks Bruce.
      Jesse Doyle
      1971 Columbia 28’
      #547
      s/v Wind Singer
      Redwood City, Ca.
      37º 35’ 14.32” N
      122º 18’ 58.89” W
       
       
       
      From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kbjmjrb@...
      Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 5:05 PM
      To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: CYOA - Re: Can't find my manual
       
       
      Jesse,

          When you do the stays, consider using the bolt on types rather than the crimp-on ones.

           Bruce K
           Challenger 74 "Ouroboros"
           Los Lunas, NM




      Pete, sorry for not getting back to you. Right at this time I don’t know if I can use it. I’m not sure what kind of waste system I’m going to use and I’m still debating as to how I’m going to do with the cockpit drains. I’m going to pull her out of the water soon so I have to get on the stick and get things together. Haven’t even decided what bottom paint I’m going to use. I want some that’s going to be multi season. Got any suggestions? Once I get the mast down is going to be when the boat bucks start flowing. Have to change all my stay wire too. Whooopeee! Sorry I couldn’t use you thru hull and valve. I’m sure someone here will snag it.

      Jesse Doyle

      1971 Columbia 28’

      #547

      s/v Wind Singer

      Redwood City, Ca.

      37º 35’ 14.32” N

      122º 18’ 58.89” W




    • Jesse Doyle
      Good thoughts coming from a man that I am quite sure has a much higher IQ than I have. If I’m not sadly mistaken the 28 was made as a racer but also a light
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 2, 2013
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        Good thoughts coming from a man that I am quite sure has a much higher IQ than I have. If I’m not sadly mistaken the 28 was made as a racer but also a light cruiser. I know the guys here have told me that a few have done the world tour so I can assume that they can be both. I’m not a racer so be damned with the close haul. If I have the room I’ll haul it as much as “it” wants to go. So, on that note I’ll wait for the upcoming debate and make the decision. So let the dogs of war out. Damn I want to go sailing. Maybe next year. Thanks for the wisdom David.

        Jesse Doyle

        1971 Columbia 28’

        #547

        s/v Wind Singer

        Redwood City, Ca.

        37º 35’ 14.32” N

        122º 18’ 58.89” W

         

         

         

        From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Morgan
        Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 8:52 PM
        To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: CYOA - was: Can't find my manual. Now: sheeting angles

         

         

        I also meant to mention that (I hope) those things are considered by the designers when they put a plan to paper.  I don't have the training nor experience to rely on in changing something that has (hopefully) already been thought out by someone who should know what they were doing. 

        Not that it can't be done, but with some study and deliberation. 

         

        David
        Bremerton, WA
        1968 C-22 #1109
        "Eaglet"


        From: David Morgan <sapper69k@...>
        To: "columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com" <columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 2:36 PM
        Subject: CYOA - was: Can't find my manual. Now: sheeting angles

         

         

        Jesse

        I stick a foot in here while you're waiting for the smart guys to speak up. 

        Aside from the affect it has on clearing or cluttering your access to the foredeck, depending on where they are situated, I suspect that 1) Moving the shrouds out from the mast increases the stability they offer the mast.  2) It decreases the ability to sheet in your head sails to close hauled when sailing up wind. 

        Conversly:  Moving shrouds inboard from a rail position:  1) Decreases the stability they offer the mast.  2)  Increases the ability to sheet in the sails to a more closely hauled position to allow sailing closer to the wind. 

        So I'm guessing it may not matter as much to a cruiser, and it may matter more to a racer, but some cruisers like to go fast and some racers aren't interested as fast so much as they are steady. 

        But it's all speculation on my part....... And I'm sure there are other considerations. 

         

        David
        Bremerton, WA
        1968 C-22 #1109
        "Eaglet"


        From: Jesse Doyle <jess81452@...>
        To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, March 2, 2013 11:50 AM
        Subject: RE: CYOA - Re: Can't find my manual

         

         

        Bruce, I’m thinking of putting my stays on the outside of the hull. I know how to do it because I had a boat wright help me with it on my old Pearson Ariel. I just can’t remember why I did it. Is there any chance you could explain the pros and cons. I know the group had gone over it some time back but without having to scan all the discussions I figure I’d just ask. Thanks Bruce.

        Jesse Doyle

        1971 Columbia 28’

        #547

        s/v Wind Singer

        Redwood City, Ca.

        37º 35’ 14.32” N

        122º 18’ 58.89” W

         

         

         

        From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kbjmjrb@...
        Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 5:05 PM
        To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: CYOA - Re: Can't find my manual

         

         

        Jesse,

            When you do the stays, consider using the bolt on types rather than the crimp-on ones.

             Bruce K
             Challenger 74 "Ouroboros"
             Los Lunas, NM





        Pete, sorry for not getting back to you. Right at this time I don’t know if I can use it. I’m not sure what kind of waste system I’m going to use and I’m still debating as to how I’m going to do with the cockpit drains. I’m going to pull her out of the water soon so I have to get on the stick and get things together. Haven’t even decided what bottom paint I’m going to use. I want some that’s going to be multi season. Got any suggestions? Once I get the mast down is going to be when the boat bucks start flowing. Have to change all my stay wire too. Whooopeee! Sorry I couldn’t use you thru hull and valve. I’m sure someone here will snag it.

        Jesse Doyle

        1971 Columbia 28’

        #547

        s/v Wind Singer

        Redwood City, Ca.

        37º 35’ 14.32” N

        122º 18’ 58.89” W

         

         

      • cchl74
        The main reason folks move the chainplates outboard is to add strength to the chainplate anchoring system. As stated, racers do prefer to sheet the headsails
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 3, 2013
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          The main reason folks move the chainplates outboard is to add strength to the chainplate anchoring system. As stated, racers do prefer to sheet the headsails at a narrow angle, so many boats have the chainplates inboard from the gunsels. When this is done, anchoring the chainplates requires some sort of structure under the deck to spread the load. The fastening system is often not ideal. It also means a hole in the deck which can leak. Some folks headed for blue water prefer to move the chain plates to the side and glass large metal plates to the inside of the hull. The chainplates are then well anchored and the attachment bolts are in sheer, a stronger system all around. It also reduces clutter on the deck. The forces on a deck stepped mast system are usually just considered to be compression on the mast and tension in the shrouds. For a given side force on the mast, the amount of compression and tension is determined by the height of the mast and the distance from the mast base to the chainplates. Moving the chainplates outboard will reduce the mount of tension in the shrouds, but moving them just a few inches does not change things all that much. Often, and I suspect this is the case for the C-28, the sheeting angle of an overlapping headsail is actually limited by the length of the spreaders rather than the width of the chainplate base. If you wish to move your chainplates outboard, I say go for it, but make sure that the anchoring system is strong and distributes the load over a large area of the hull. Some pure racing boats have a steel frame under the chainplates that is bolted to the keel. Such a system is usually not practical in a cruiser. Often, when reinforcing the chainplate anchors, folks will also consider adding chainplates fore and aft for double lower shrouds This helps reduce "pumping" of the mast when sailing through sharp swells.



                 Bruce K

                 Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                 Los Lunas, NM
              



          Bruce, I’m thinking of putting my stays on the outside of the hull. I know how to do it because I had a boat wright help me with it on my old Pearson Ariel. I just can’t remember why I did it. Is there any chance you could explain the pros and cons. I know the group had gone over it some time back but without having to scan all the discussions I figure I’d just ask. Thanks Bruce.

          Jesse Doyle

          1971 Columbia 28’

          #547

          s/v Wind Singer

          Redwood City, Ca.

          37º 35’ 14.32” N

          122º 18’ 58.89” W


        • Jesse Doyle
          Bruce, I am having to learn all the terminology again since my small stroke. I really feel like a dumb ass asking this, but could you or others here explain
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 3, 2013
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            Bruce, I am having to learn all the terminology again since my small stroke. I really feel like a dumb ass asking this, but could you or others here explain your last two sentences. Thank God for the Annapolis book of seamanship and the boaters bible. I just haven’t got to that section yet. Hate asking! I hope you don’t mind.

             

            From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kbjmjrb@...
            Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 6:21 AM
            To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: CYOA - Re: Can't find my manual

             

             

            The main reason folks move the chainplates outboard is to add strength to the chainplate anchoring system. As stated, racers do prefer to sheet the headsails at a narrow angle, so many boats have the chainplates inboard from the gunsels. When this is done, anchoring the chainplates requires some sort of structure under the deck to spread the load. The fastening system is often not ideal. It also means a hole in the deck which can leak. Some folks headed for blue water prefer to move the chain plates to the side and glass large metal plates to the inside of the hull. The chainplates are then well anchored and the attachment bolts are in sheer, a stronger system all around. It also reduces clutter on the deck. The forces on a deck stepped mast system are usually just considered to be compression on the mast and tension in the shrouds. For a given side force on the mast, the amount of compression and tension is determined by the height of the mast and the distance from the mast base to the chainplates. Moving the chainplates outboard will reduce the mount of tension in the shrouds, but moving them just a few inches does not change things all that much. Often, and I suspect this is the case for the C-28, the sheeting angle of an overlapping headsail is actually limited by the length of the spreaders rather than the width of the chainplate base. If you wish to move your chainplates outboard, I say go for it, but make sure that the anchoring system is strong and distributes the load over a large area of the hull. Some pure racing boats have a steel frame under the chainplates that is bolted to the keel. Such a system is usually not practical in a cruiser. Often, when reinforcing the chainplate anchors, folks will also consider adding chainplates fore and aft for double lower shrouds This helps reduce "pumping" of the mast when sailing through sharp swells.



                   Bruce K


                   Challenger # 74, "Ouroboros"
                   Los Lunas, NM
                




            Bruce, I’m thinking of putting my stays on the outside of the hull. I know how to do it because I had a boat wright help me with it on my old Pearson Ariel. I just can’t remember why I did it. Is there any chance you could explain the pros and cons. I know the group had gone over it some time back but without having to scan all the discussions I figure I’d just ask. Thanks Bruce.

            Jesse Doyle

            1971 Columbia 28’

            #547

            s/v Wind Singer

            Redwood City, Ca.

            37º 35’ 14.32” N

            122º 18’ 58.89” W

          • harryjak
            There were some tests run on strength and the Stayloc and the Hi Mod both tested out higher than the Norseman fittings. HJ Bruce, I think It’s The Norse
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 3, 2013
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              There were some tests run on strength and the Stayloc and the Hi Mod both tested
              out higher than the Norseman fittings.

              HJ

              Bruce, I think It’s The Norse (maybe) you’re Talking about. I had planned on
              > that.
              >
              >
              >
              > From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kbjmjrb@...
              > Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 5:05 PM
              > To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: CYOA - Re: Can't find my manual
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Jesse,
              >
              > When you do the stays, consider using the bolt on types rather than the
              > crimp-on ones.
              >
              > Bruce K
              > Challenger 74 "Ouroboros"
              > Los Lunas, NM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Pete, sorry for not getting back to you. Right at this time I don’t know if I can
              > use it. I’m not sure what kind of waste system I’m going to use and I’m still
              > debating as to how I’m going to do with the cockpit drains. I’m going to pull
              > her out of the water soon so I have to get on the stick and get things together.
              > Haven’t even decided what bottom paint I’m going to use. I want some that’s
              > going to be multi season. Got any suggestions? Once I get the mast down is going to
              > be when the boat bucks start flowing. Have to change all my stay wire too.
              > Whooopeee! Sorry I couldn’t use you thru hull and valve. I’m sure someone here
              > will snag it.
              >
              > Jesse Doyle
              >
              > 1971 Columbia 28’
              >
              > #547
              >
              > s/v Wind Singer
              >
              > Redwood City, Ca.
              >
              > 37º 35’ 14.32” N
              >
              > 122º 18’ 58.89” W
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • cchl74
              I am assuming that you are asking about mast pumping . On a masthead rig, the top of the mast is held in place fore and aft by the stays and side to side by
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 4, 2013
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                I am assuming that you are asking about mast "pumping". On a masthead rig, the top of the mast is held in place fore and aft by the stays and side to side by the outer shrouds. It is pretty well locked in. The base of the mast is held by the shoe. A lot of boats, however, just have single lower shrouds that attach just below the spreaders and terminate at the same chainplates as the outer shrouds. With this arrangement, the center section of the mat does not have any fore and aft restraints. Because the mast is under compression from tension in the stays and shrouds, it is "springy". Under certain wave and point of sail conditions, the center section of the mast will start to bend forward a little and then spring back. If It finds a resonance frequency coupled with a wave frequency, it will act like a guitar string and cause a very annoying vibration. The usual solution to this problem is to use double lower shrouds which terminate at sperate chainplates set about 18 inches fore and aft of the main chainplates.


                      Bruce K

                      Challenger #  74, "Ouroboros"
                      Los Lunas, NM
                   


                Bruce, I am having to learn all the terminology again since my small stroke. I really feel like a dumb ass asking this, but could you or others here explain your last two sentences. Thank God for the Annapolis book of seamanship and the boaters bible. I just haven’t got to that section yet. Hate asking! I hope you don’t mind.


              • Jesse Doyle
                Thank you Bruce. Now I won’t have any reason to feel like a D.A. From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com]
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 4, 2013
                • 0 Attachment

                  Thank you Bruce. Now I won’t have any reason to feel like a  D.A.

                   

                  From: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com [mailto:columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kbjmjrb@...
                  Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 6:22 AM
                  To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: CYOA - Re: Can't find my manual

                   

                   

                  I am assuming that you are asking about mast "pumping". On a masthead rig, the top of the mast is held in place fore and aft by the stays and side to side by the outer shrouds. It is pretty well locked in. The base of the mast is held by the shoe. A lot of boats, however, just have single lower shrouds that attach just below the spreaders and terminate at the same chainplates as the outer shrouds. With this arrangement, the center section of the mat does not have any fore and aft restraints. Because the mast is under compression from tension in the stays and shrouds, it is "springy". Under certain wave and point of sail conditions, the center section of the mast will start to bend forward a little and then spring back. If It finds a resonance frequency coupled with a wave frequency, it will act like a guitar string and cause a very annoying vibration. The usual solution to this problem is to use double lower shrouds which terminate at sperate chainplates set about 18 inches fore and aft of the main chainplates.



                        Bruce K


                        Challenger #  74, "Ouroboros"
                        Los Lunas, NM
                     



                  Bruce, I am having to learn all the terminology again since my small stroke. I really feel like a dumb ass asking this, but could you or others here explain your last two sentences. Thank God for the Annapolis book of seamanship and the boaters bible. I just haven’t got to that section yet. Hate asking! I hope you don’t mind.

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