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Re: CYOA - Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard

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  • Alan Miller
    I have been flushing the engine by switching the intake valves from raw water to the fresh water reservoir then leaving the water in the engine. It could be
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 31, 2011
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      I have been flushing the engine by switching the intake valves from raw water to the fresh water reservoir then leaving the water in the engine. It could be some air got in the system.  Originally I filled the engine with a biodegradable antifreeze before it was started.  I might try that again. The water glass sounds interesting, but I don't think I could get the  water up to 212 F.


      From: CJE <cjecje1@...>
      To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:39 AM
      Subject: CYOA - Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard

       

      Does the engine freely drain after flushing? Or is it arranged so that the cooling water is retained in the engine?

      If it was arranged to retain water - maybe you have a slight leak from your recent work which now allows air in and the water to drain out? Rust results from excessive amounts of oxygen being exposed to the ferrous metals. Hot water has much less free oxygen and if retained would not cause as much oxidation as would newly introduced cold water. Or fresh air introduced after flushing.

      One thing you might want to try is to arrange a recirculation system out of and back into a bucket, and add some Water Glass to the water while you run it up to temperature. This will passify the cast iron and other ferrous metals in the water passages. Water Glass is sodium silicate. As you flush with fresh water anyway - just add some water glass to the flushing water. Or maybe to a second batch. Run the engine until the cooling water is 212º F. At about 212º the sodium silicate loses water molecules to coat the iron and form a strong sealer which will not re-melt.

      stephen
      ----------

      --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, "AlanM" <cbuzzyb@> wrote:

      My boat a C27, MK I, is powered by Palmer PW 27, one cylinder gas engine. We are in San Diego, the motor is raw water cooled. Recently I installed a rebuilt cylinder from a engine used in fresh water. The the bottom half of the engine is original the water passages of the original cylinder and two heads corroded away. I also installed a fresh water reservoir that I flush the engine out before it is shut down. Recently I started it up after about a month and rust ran out of the exhaust for about a minute. Now I think it might be better to just use the sea water.

      Any suggestions?

      Alan Miller
      Tempest, Hull No. 22
      ----------------------------


    • Peter
      Sthephen s spec of 212*F was related to de-aerating the water (dissolved gas and oxygen removal). The silicate coating will form at normal operating
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 1, 2011
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        Sthephen's spec of 212*F was related to de-aerating the water (dissolved gas and oxygen removal). The silicate coating will form at normal operating temperatures.
        If you revert to filling with anti-freeze, please consider a way to capture the bulk of it before re-opening the system to the waterways.

        Excuse me while I step up on my soap box for a quick diatribe....

        "Biodegradable" is a catch word for "we don't know who's gonna eat it".....many chemical sellers tout "environmentally safe" when in fact they mean that discharge is not yet illegal. Let the volume of one chemical purchased and released by us Americans increase to the point that damage is first noted, and within 10-20 years the EPA will get around to making it illegal, way too late. If we keep it in the boat and reuse it, we are being conservative, and conservationists, in one whack. I resign from the debating team as of now (until next time) ~ pete

        --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, Alan Miller <cbuzzyb@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have been flushing the engine by switching the intake valves from raw water to the fresh water reservoir then leaving the water in the engine. It could be some air got in the system.  Originally I filled the engine with a biodegradable antifreeze before it was started.  I might try that again. The water glass sounds interesting, but I don't think I could get the  water up to 212 F.
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: CJE <cjecje1@...>
        > To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:39 AM
        > Subject: CYOA - Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        > Does the engine freely drain after flushing? Or is it arranged so that the cooling water is retained in the engine?
        >
        > If it was arranged to retain water - maybe you have a slight leak from your recent work which now allows air in and the water to drain out? Rust results from excessive amounts of oxygen being exposed to the ferrous metals. Hot water has much less free oxygen and if retained would not cause as much oxidation as would newly introduced cold water. Or fresh air introduced after flushing.
        >
        > One thing you might want to try is to arrange a recirculation system out of and back into a bucket, and add some Water Glass to the water while you run it up to temperature. This will passify the cast iron and other ferrous metals in the water passages. Water Glass is sodium silicate. As you flush with fresh water anyway - just add some water glass to the flushing water. Or maybe to a second batch. Run the engine until the cooling water is 212º F. At about 212º the sodium silicate loses water molecules to coat the iron and form a strong sealer which will not re-melt.
        >
        > stephen
        > ----------
        >
        > --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, "AlanM" <cbuzzyb@> wrote:
        >
        > My boat a C27, MK I, is powered by Palmer PW 27, one cylinder gas engine. We are in San Diego, the motor is raw water cooled. Recently I installed a rebuilt cylinder from a engine used in fresh water. The the bottom half of the engine is original the water passages of the original cylinder and two heads corroded away. I also installed a fresh water reservoir that I flush the engine out before it is shut down. Recently I started it up after about a month and rust ran out of the exhaust for about a minute. Now I think it might be better to just use the sea water.
        >
        > Any suggestions?
        >
        > Alan Miller
        > Tempest, Hull No. 22
        > ----------------------------
        >
      • CJE
        What you could do is to boil all the water for a few minutes first before later using it to install the water glass. That would drive off most of the free
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 1, 2011
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          What you could do is to boil all the water for a few minutes first before later using it to install the water glass. That would drive off most of the free oxygen. Then be as careful as you can not to re-aerate it.

          Then arrange a suction and discharge hose from the engine to and from the bucket of pre-boiled for running the engine up to temperature. The water glass will passivate the exposed iron passages in the engine and substantially reduce further oxidation.

          stephen
          -----------





          On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Alan Miller wrote:


          I have been flushing the engine by switching the intake valves from raw water to the fresh water reservoir then leaving the water in the engine. It could be some air got in the system. Originally I filled the engine with a biodegradable antifreeze before it was started. I might try that again. The water glass sounds interesting, but I don't think I could get the water up to 212 F.

          From: CJE <cjecje1@...>
          To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:39 AM
          Subject: CYOA - Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard



          Does the engine freely drain after flushing? Or is it arranged so that the cooling water is retained in the engine?

          If it was arranged to retain water - maybe you have a slight leak from your recent work which now allows air in and the water to drain out? Rust results from excessive amounts of oxygen being exposed to the ferrous metals. Hot water has much less free oxygen and if retained would not cause as much oxidation as would newly introduced cold water. Or fresh air introduced after flushing.

          One thing you might want to try is to arrange a recirculation system out of and back into a bucket, and add some Water Glass to the water while you run it up to temperature. This will passify the cast iron and other ferrous metals in the water passages. Water Glass is sodium silicate. As you flush with fresh water anyway - just add some water glass to the flushing water. Or maybe to a second batch. Run the engine until the cooling water is 212º F. At about 212º the sodium silicate loses water molecules to coat the iron and form a strong sealer which will not re-melt.

          stephen
          ----------

          --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, "AlanM" <cbuzzyb@> wrote:

          My boat a C27, MK I, is powered by Palmer PW 27, one cylinder gas engine. We are in San Diego, the motor is raw water cooled. Recently I installed a rebuilt cylinder from a engine used in fresh water. The the bottom half of the engine is original the water passages of the original cylinder and two heads corroded away. I also installed a fresh water reservoir that I flush the engine out before it is shut down. Recently I started it up after about a month and rust ran out of the exhaust for about a minute. Now I think it might be better to just use the sea water.

          Any suggestions?

          Alan Miller
          Tempest, Hull No. 22
          ===================
        • Alan Miller
          I look into the water glass at operating temps. As for the antifreeze there is a drain for the water passages at the back of the engine not hard to reach just
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 1, 2011
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            I'look into the water glass at operating temps. As for the antifreeze there is a drain for the water passages at the back of the engine not hard to reach just a little hard to collect the drainage. Thats what I used when I started the engine after instillation.

            Alan 


            From: Peter <pajama1lama@...>
            To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 3:31 AM
            Subject: CYOA - Re: Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard

             
            Sthephen's spec of 212*F was related to de-aerating the water (dissolved gas and oxygen removal). The silicate coating will form at normal operating temperatures.
            If you revert to filling with anti-freeze, please consider a way to capture the bulk of it before re-opening the system to the waterways.

            Excuse me while I step up on my soap box for a quick diatribe....

            "Biodegradable" is a catch word for "we don't know who's gonna eat it".....many chemical sellers tout "environmentally safe" when in fact they mean that discharge is not yet illegal. Let the volume of one chemical purchased and released by us Americans increase to the point that damage is first noted, and within 10-20 years the EPA will get around to making it illegal, way too late. If we keep it in the boat and reuse it, we are being conservative, and conservationists, in one whack. I resign from the debating team as of now (until next time) ~ pete

            --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, Alan Miller <cbuzzyb@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have been flushing the engine by switching the intake valves from raw water to the fresh water reservoir then leaving the water in the engine. It could be some air got in the system.  Originally I filled the engine with a biodegradable antifreeze before it was started.  I might try that again. The water glass sounds interesting, but I don't think I could get the  water up to 212 F.
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: CJE <cjecje1@...>
            > To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:39 AM
            > Subject: CYOA - Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            > Does the engine freely drain after flushing? Or is it arranged so that the cooling water is retained in the engine?
            >
            > If it was arranged to retain water - maybe you have a slight leak from your recent work which now allows air in and the water to drain out? Rust results from excessive amounts of oxygen being exposed to the ferrous metals. Hot water has much less free oxygen and if retained would not cause as much oxidation as would newly introduced cold water. Or fresh air introduced after flushing.
            >
            > One thing you might want to try is to arrange a recirculation system out of and back into a bucket, and add some Water Glass to the water while you run it up to temperature. This will passify the cast iron and other ferrous metals in the water passages. Water Glass is sodium silicate. As you flush with fresh water anyway - just add some water glass to the flushing water. Or maybe to a second batch. Run the engine until the cooling water is 212º F. At about 212º the sodium silicate loses water molecules to coat the iron and form a strong sealer which will not re-melt.
            >
            > stephen
            > ----------
            >
            > --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, "AlanM" <cbuzzyb@> wrote:
            >
            > My boat a C27, MK I, is powered by Palmer PW 27, one cylinder gas engine. We are in San Diego, the motor is raw water cooled. Recently I installed a rebuilt cylinder from a engine used in fresh water. The the bottom half of the engine is original the water passages of the original cylinder and two heads corroded away. I also installed a fresh water reservoir that I flush the engine out before it is shut down. Recently I started it up after about a month and rust ran out of the exhaust for about a minute. Now I think it might be better to just use the sea water.
            >
            > Any suggestions?
            >
            > Alan Miller
            > Tempest, Hull No. 22
            > ----------------------------
            >



          • Alan Miller
            Sounds like a nice treatment when I had the engine apart.  Boiling water is a little hard since the boat is on a mooring with no electricity.  I ll run the
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 1, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Sounds like a nice treatment when I had the engine apart.  Boiling water is a little hard since the boat is on a mooring with no electricity.  I'll run the engine this weekend the try the fresh water flush and check for air leaks. 

              Alan


              From: CJE <cjecje1@...>
              To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 7:08 AM
              Subject: Re: CYOA - Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard

               

              What you could do is to boil all the water for a few minutes first before later using it to install the water glass. That would drive off most of the free oxygen. Then be as careful as you can not to re-aerate it.

              Then arrange a suction and discharge hose from the engine to and from the bucket of pre-boiled for running the engine up to temperature. The water glass will passivate the exposed iron passages in the engine and substantially reduce further oxidation.

              stephen
              -----------

              On Sep 1, 2011, at 1:23 AM, Alan Miller wrote:

              I have been flushing the engine by switching the intake valves from raw water to the fresh water reservoir then leaving the water in the engine. It could be some air got in the system. Originally I filled the engine with a biodegradable antifreeze before it was started. I might try that again. The water glass sounds interesting, but I don't think I could get the water up to 212 F.

              From: CJE <cjecje1@...>
              To: columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2011 6:39 AM
              Subject: CYOA - Rust coming out - Palmer PW 27 Inboard

              Does the engine freely drain after flushing? Or is it arranged so that the cooling water is retained in the engine?

              If it was arranged to retain water - maybe you have a slight leak from your recent work which now allows air in and the water to drain out? Rust results from excessive amounts of oxygen being exposed to the ferrous metals. Hot water has much less free oxygen and if retained would not cause as much oxidation as would newly introduced cold water. Or fresh air introduced after flushing.

              One thing you might want to try is to arrange a recirculation system out of and back into a bucket, and add some Water Glass to the water while you run it up to temperature. This will passify the cast iron and other ferrous metals in the water passages. Water Glass is sodium silicate. As you flush with fresh water anyway - just add some water glass to the flushing water. Or maybe to a second batch. Run the engine until the cooling water is 212º F. At about 212º the sodium silicate loses water molecules to coat the iron and form a strong sealer which will not re-melt.

              stephen
              ----------

              --- In columbiasailingyachts@yahoogroups.com, "AlanM" <cbuzzyb@> wrote:

              My boat a C27, MK I, is powered by Palmer PW 27, one cylinder gas engine. We are in San Diego, the motor is raw water cooled. Recently I installed a rebuilt cylinder from a engine used in fresh water. The the bottom half of the engine is original the water passages of the original cylinder and two heads corroded away. I also installed a fresh water reservoir that I flush the engine out before it is shut down. Recently I started it up after about a month and rust ran out of the exhaust for about a minute. Now I think it might be better to just use the sea water.

              Any suggestions?

              Alan Miller
              Tempest, Hull No. 22
              ===================


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