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[columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign

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  • DAVID PANSEGROUW
    In general I agree that stop signs are not the most efficient way of creating smooth flowing traffic and I do think they can increase pollution. Having said
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 31, 2002
      In general I agree that stop signs are not the most efficient
      way of creating smooth flowing traffic and I do think they can
      increase pollution. Having said that, and as a resident of the
      1100/1200 block of Fairmont, the stop sign at 13th and Fairmont is
      very helpful. My problem with it is that the aim of reducing
      traffic on 13th St. increases traffic on 11th, not just 14th and
      Sherman where it is intended.
      11th St. needs to be just as unattractive a route for
      commuters as is 13th St.. 11th and Fairmont also has more than
      it's share of accidents and near misses. That corner also is
      within two blocks of two schools. I hope those who pushed for a
      stop sign at 13th and Fairmont will not settle for just pushing
      the problem to another block and support efforts to reduce traffic
      on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage traffic to
      move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
      David Pansegrouw

      ------------------------------------------------------------------

      From: abuelo_jack@...
      To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:28:54 -0000
      Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
    • William Jordan
      David, From what I understand there are two basic approaches/processes working in parallel on the traffic issues. 1. Individuals and associations are working
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 1 11:34 AM
        David,

        From what I understand there are two basic approaches/processes working
        in parallel on the traffic issues.

        1. Individuals and associations are working for and pushing for specific
        solutions for address traffic and parking issues in their areas.
        2. There is also a more comprehensive Columbia Heights Traffic study
        being developed, I'm not clear on its status at this point.

        The postive thing that has occured in recent years is that our community
        is slowly shifting from being viewed as a thru-way between Maryland/Va.
        and the Federal Center with the primary consideration being moving cars
        and lowest priority being the people who live in this community. The
        challenge now before this community is to continue this view shift in
        terms of traffic and other issues. The challenge is doable, but the
        politics of traffic in CH is pretty interesting. Traffic intervention
        is as much about political reward and gain and maybe more so, than about
        best practices and safety. This community will need to decide whether
        this process focuses on and becomes more about petty politics or best
        practices and safety. Our politicos will follow our lead on this one.

        William

        DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:

        > In general I agree that stop signs are not the most efficient
        >way of creating smooth flowing traffic and I do think they can
        >increase pollution. Having said that, and as a resident of the
        >1100/1200 block of Fairmont, the stop sign at 13th and Fairmont is
        >very helpful. My problem with it is that the aim of reducing
        >traffic on 13th St. increases traffic on 11th, not just 14th and
        >Sherman where it is intended.
        > 11th St. needs to be just as unattractive a route for
        >commuters as is 13th St.. 11th and Fairmont also has more than
        >it's share of accidents and near misses. That corner also is
        >within two blocks of two schools. I hope those who pushed for a
        >stop sign at 13th and Fairmont will not settle for just pushing
        >the problem to another block and support efforts to reduce traffic
        >on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage traffic to
        >move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
        > David Pansegrouw
        >
        >------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >From: abuelo_jack@...
        >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
        >Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:28:54 -0000
        >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
        >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • David McIntire
        William, The other challenge for citizens is not to allow the issue to create rifts within the community especially if it has potential to create animosity
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 1 12:43 PM
          William,

          The other challenge for citizens is not to allow the issue to create rifts
          within the community especially if it has potential to create animosity
          across race and class lines - such as let's force traffic onto X St. (mostly
          minority) rather than Y St. (many white newcomers) or whatever.

          There are and will be many issues that have this potential and it is
          incumbent on each citizen to think of all his/her fellow citizens when
          advocating for something in particular, not just ones own personal gain. The
          most important issue is peace and harmony in the community.

          Dave McIntire

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "William Jordan" <whj@...>


          >
          > David,
          The
          > challenge now before this community is to continue this view shift in
          > terms of traffic and other issues. The challenge is doable, but the
          > politics of traffic in CH is pretty interesting. Traffic intervention
          > is as much about political reward and gain and maybe more so, than about
          > best practices and safety. This community will need to decide whether
          > this process focuses on and becomes more about petty politics or best
          > practices and safety. Our politicos will follow our lead on this one.
          >
          > William
          >
          > DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:
          >
          I hope those who pushed for a
          > >stop sign at 13th and Fairmont will not settle for just pushing
          > >the problem to another block and support efforts to reduce traffic
          > >on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage traffic to
          > >move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
          > > David Pansegrouw
        • Jack <abuelo_jack@yahoo.com>
          In order to strike a reasonable balance between the residents of the city and automobiles passing through residential areas, DC has developed Traffic Calming
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 1 4:03 PM
            In order to strike a reasonable balance between the residents of the
            city and automobiles passing through residential areas, DC has
            developed "Traffic Calming Policies and Guidelines", with Howard
            University providing the technical lead.

            Here is a link to the DC Traffic Calming Policies and Guidelines:
            http://ddot.dc.gov/services/traffic_calming/index.shtm
          • blackcaesar20010 <blackcaesar20010@yahoo
            Dave, I don t understand how, or why you are drawing race into this. People on X street pay taxes just like the people on Y street-- so consider the
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 1 7:22 PM
              Dave,

              I don't understand how, or why you are drawing race
              into this. People on X street pay taxes just like
              the people on Y street-- so consider the possibility
              of having a process where our tax dollars can work for
              the benefit of all of us. Now someone could make the
              argument that X street pays more taxes than street Y,
              or X street votes more than Y, or even X street
              happens to be more "sexy" than Y, or whatever..

              My only concern the motivation behind the study. Development
              at 14th & Irving is still few years away, yet we have issues
              outstanding that have yet to be addressed. From my own layman's
              perspective on traffic stuff.. and I believe I described at the
              last meeting that "any attempt to only to limit the scope of study
              to the immediate area surrounding the parcels", would be in a
              sense, "is putting the carriage before the horse".

              Not to worry.. I don't know of anyone here on the north
              (as in "North)side who intends on making that argument.
              No one's going to play the race card Dave. Instead we're
              out busting our black asses-- taking all the necessary steps
              and following procedure, participating in the process to
              ensure that the study will be inclusive. We're jumping
              through frickin' hoops man, and were doing it for everyone
              who lives over here, and "everyone who live's here" ain't
              just black folks either.

              I ain't trippin' off of X and Y, race, and class and all that
              other tired shit. I just want to see some of them dollars work
              for us for a change. Don't start trippin' man!

              John

              --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire" <mail@i...>
              wrote:
              > William,
              >
              > The other challenge for citizens is not to allow the issue to
              create rifts
              > within the community especially if it has potential to create
              animosity
              > across race and class lines - such as let's force traffic onto X
              St. (mostly
              > minority) rather than Y St. (many white newcomers) or whatever.
            • David McIntire
              John, I wasn t bringing race and class into it. I was encouraging that race and class be kept out of the issue. A statement like the following encourages the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 2 3:04 AM
                John,

                I wasn't bringing race and class into it. I was encouraging that race and
                class be kept out of the issue.

                A statement like the following encourages the injection of class issues.
                Folks living on those streets don't want more traffic being forced on them
                either. And those streets are still largely ungentrified and minority.

                > DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:
                >
                I hope those who pushed for a stop sign at 13th and Fairmont will not settle
                for just pushing the problem to another block and support efforts to reduce
                traffic on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage traffic to
                move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
                > > David Pansegrouw

                Dave McIntire

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <blackcaesar20010@...>
                To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 10:22 PM
                Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign


                > Dave,
                >
                > I don't understand how, or why you are drawing race
                > into this. People on X street pay taxes just like
                > the people on Y street-- so consider the possibility
                > of having a process where our tax dollars can work for
                > the benefit of all of us. Now someone could make the
                > argument that X street pays more taxes than street Y,
                > or X street votes more than Y, or even X street
                > happens to be more "sexy" than Y, or whatever..
                >
              • Larry Bellinger
                I tried to send this Tuesday, but my network server was acting funky: All well and good Jack, but I live at 13th and Fairnont. I won t go through your points
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 2 7:01 AM
                  I tried to send this Tuesday, but my network server was acting funky:
                   
                   
                  All well and good Jack, but I live at 13th and Fairnont. I won't go through your points one by one, because as Disraeli once said, "There are lies, Damn lies and STATISTICS!" But you may want to check the stats on how many accidents occured at the corner of 13th and Fairmont.
                   
                  13th Street is less and less a commuter route. Folks are gonna have to get used to it. I wanna thank all those who got the signage installed, regardless of the stats I know I don't feel as if I am taking my life in my hands when I cross the street to get to my car these days.

                  I honestly don't know what all the fuss is about these signs. But if you ask the folks who live there I don't think you'll find too many of us hollering to have the signs removed!

                  Happy New Year to all!

                  Larry Bellinger 

                   -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jack <abuelo_jack@...> [mailto:abuelo_jack@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 11:29 AM
                  To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign

                  I checked out the new stop signs on 13th at Fairmont. Notes:

                  (1) If put up simply to slow traffic, this is specifically contrary
                  to Federal guidelines: "STOP signs should not be used for speed
                  control". Motorists actually speed up to make up for time lost at
                  stops, so what's gained at the intersection is lost in mid-block.

                  (2) The stop is directly contrary to the recently issued DC Traffic
                  Calming Policies and Guidelines: "if the ADT [average daily traffic]
                  exceeds 5000 vpd [vehicles per day], traffic calming measures should
                  not be considered." According to the most recent traffic measurements
                  posted on the DDOT Web site, traffic on 13th is about 14,000 vpd, far
                  above this criterion.

                  (3) Stop signs do not help pedestrians, because so many drivers roll
                  through them, and DC drivers assume that pedestrians will wait until
                  traffic is clear. This is what we found when a stop was installed
                  here at Park and 19th. You have to be stupid to step out in front of
                  oncoming traffic, on the assumption that the oncoming drivers will
                  stop. At the Fairmont intersection one has a stop light just a block
                  away, creating natural gaps in traffic for pedestrians.

                  Councilmember Graham is notorious for his love of stop signs. He
                  knows that citizens are pleased to see "something done" about
                  traffic, while the drivers will not know whom to hold responsible for
                  yet another delay on the road. The District likes stop signs because
                  they are cheap, and mollify the citizenry.

                  Stop signs are, however, ineffectual, merely creating noise,
                  congestion, and pollution, for little benefit. Think of fourteen
                  thousand cars and trucks a day stopping and starting at that
                  intersection. In Mount Pleasant, we succeeded in halting an attempt
                  by DDOT to plant three stop signs along Irving Street. The neighbors
                  knew that those stops would cause unbearable noise, and would do no
                  good.

                  But don't take my word for this. Go to the Iowa State Center for
                  Transportation Research and Education and read this:
                  http://www.ctre.iastate.edu/pubs/tsinfo/faq13l.doc

                  An excerpt: "One of the complaints that people have in residential
                  areas is that vehicles constantly speed by the front of their house.
                  They are concerned about the safety of their children. These
                  residents frequently request the erection of additional stop signs.
                  The addition of a stop sign, however, usually does not solve the
                  problem."

                  But once the stop sign is in place, it is practically impossible to
                  get rid of, no matter how counterproductive and ineffectual it may be.




                  URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/


                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Megan Cytron
                  It seems like there is really a need for a public meeting/forum at which all of the various neighborhood subdivision/factions can discuss their issues with
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 2 2:36 PM
                    It seems like there is really a need for a public meeting/forum
                    at which all of the various neighborhood subdivision/factions can
                    discuss their issues with traffic and so that this can feed into
                    the "master plan". Is this going to be part of "the study"?

                    It's true, I live on 13th Street, so that's where I have put my
                    biggest focus when it comes to pedestrian safety. That said, I
                    don't think it is at all accurate or fair to characterize the
                    changes on 13th as though they were at the request--or for the
                    benefit of--newcomers (a.k.a. "the gentrifiers"). Ever since the
                    construction on 14th ended and the metro opened (and actually
                    well before it) many of my neighbors were organizing and urging
                    that 13th be returned to a residential street--particularly those
                    with children, renters and owners alike. I remember signing a
                    petition about this in front of Tubman Elementary school at least
                    5 years ago...

                    The diversion of commuter traffic to 13th during the metro
                    construction was supposed to be temporary. That's why everyone
                    raised such a stink after the metro opened. It took several years
                    and countless letters and petitions from residents to get the
                    change made.


                    --Megan
                  • blackcaesar20010 <blackcaesar20010@yahoo
                    Dave, You didn t seem particularly overjoyed or concerned when some of us in largely ungentrified NE Columbia Heights were out in the cold going door-to-door
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 3 10:08 AM
                      Dave,

                      You didn't seem particularly overjoyed or concerned when
                      some of us in largely ungentrified NE Columbia Heights
                      were out in the cold going door-to-door with petitons
                      trying to get our traffic concerns addressed-- Tell me,
                      what did the rest of Columbia Heights and Adams Mill
                      Road have to do to be included in this thing?

                      Your post:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/message/8944

                      J

                      --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire" <mail@i...>
                      wrote:
                      > John,
                      >
                      > I wasn't bringing race and class into it. I was encouraging that
                      race and
                      > class be kept out of the issue.
                      >
                      > A statement like the following encourages the injection of class
                      issues.
                      > Folks living on those streets don't want more traffic being forced
                      on them
                      > either. And those streets are still largely ungentrified and
                      minority.
                      >
                      > > DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:
                      > >
                      > I hope those who pushed for a stop sign at 13th and Fairmont will
                      not settle
                      > for just pushing the problem to another block and support efforts
                      to reduce
                      > traffic on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage
                      traffic to
                      > move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
                      > > > David Pansegrouw
                      >
                      > Dave McIntire
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                      > To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 10:22 PM
                      > Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                      >
                      >
                      > > Dave,
                      > >
                      > > I don't understand how, or why you are drawing race
                      > > into this. People on X street pay taxes just like
                      > > the people on Y street-- so consider the possibility
                      > > of having a process where our tax dollars can work for
                      > > the benefit of all of us. Now someone could make the
                      > > argument that X street pays more taxes than street Y,
                      > > or X street votes more than Y, or even X street
                      > > happens to be more "sexy" than Y, or whatever..
                      > >
                    • David McIntire
                      John, I was complaining to high heaven to have a traffic study done concerning development, and taking a lot of grief from some members of the egroup because
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 3 10:45 AM
                        John,

                        I was complaining to high heaven to have a traffic study done concerning
                        development, and taking a lot of grief from some members of the egroup
                        because they don't think citizens should "diss" development plans.

                        And why do you say I wasn't overjoyed or concerned about your traffic
                        concerns? I didn't and couldn't comment one way or another because it is a
                        situation I know nothing about.

                        Besides I think of Columbia Heights as a single entity not a collection of
                        sub-neighborhoods each with it's own agenda. I am most interested in
                        addressing common concerns.

                        Dave

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <blackcaesar20010@...>
                        To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:08 PM
                        Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign


                        > Dave,
                        >
                        > You didn't seem particularly overjoyed or concerned when
                        > some of us in largely ungentrified NE Columbia Heights
                        > were out in the cold going door-to-door with petitons
                        > trying to get our traffic concerns addressed-- Tell me,
                        > what did the rest of Columbia Heights and Adams Mill
                        > Road have to do to be included in this thing?
                        >
                        > Your post:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/message/8944
                        >
                        > J
                        >
                        > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire" <mail@i...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > John,
                        > >
                        > > I wasn't bringing race and class into it. I was encouraging that
                        > race and
                        > > class be kept out of the issue.
                        > >
                        > > A statement like the following encourages the injection of class
                        > issues.
                        > > Folks living on those streets don't want more traffic being forced
                        > on them
                        > > either. And those streets are still largely ungentrified and
                        > minority.
                        > >
                        > > > DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > I hope those who pushed for a stop sign at 13th and Fairmont will
                        > not settle
                        > > for just pushing the problem to another block and support efforts
                        > to reduce
                        > > traffic on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage
                        > traffic to
                        > > move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
                        > > > > David Pansegrouw
                        > >
                        > > Dave McIntire
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                        > > To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 10:22 PM
                        > > Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Dave,
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't understand how, or why you are drawing race
                        > > > into this. People on X street pay taxes just like
                        > > > the people on Y street-- so consider the possibility
                        > > > of having a process where our tax dollars can work for
                        > > > the benefit of all of us. Now someone could make the
                        > > > argument that X street pays more taxes than street Y,
                        > > > or X street votes more than Y, or even X street
                        > > > happens to be more "sexy" than Y, or whatever..
                        > > >
                        >
                        >
                        > URL to this page on the web:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • blackcaesar20010 <blackcaesar20010@yahoo
                        Dave, It sure didn t read that way from your post ( Thanks Caroline? ), but you re entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The fact is that we are a neighborhood
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 3 1:06 PM
                          Dave,

                          It sure didn't read that way from your post ("Thanks Caroline?"),
                          but you're entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

                          The fact is that we are a neighborhood of sub-divisions, like
                          University Heights, Meridian Hill, Holmead Manor, etc. The
                          houses are different, the width of the streets, yards, and
                          even demographics are differ in some sections. When it comes
                          to traffic, we do have different issues and concerns also.

                          What we do have in common is the effect the development
                          will have with traffic in our neighborhoods. But before
                          we get caught up in the future, don't you think it IS in
                          the best interest of us all if the existing traffic issues
                          aren't taken into account first? How else are we going
                          to work on issues in common together?

                          So I really don't care about getting into a debate into
                          which subdivision is benefiting the most from race or
                          class privilege. No one would ever admit to it if they
                          were anyway, so it pointless. I see it like this: Give
                          us the rules and procedure to work by, and make those
                          resources available to us all so that we can enable and
                          empower our communites.. period. If one group feels
                          guilty or angry about race or class priviege, then
                          it's their problem. I just hope that those tax dollars
                          are working for the benefit of all of us.

                          Part of my concern stems from the original SNAP plan, where
                          New Hampshire between Georgia and Park was not to be included
                          in the study. Perhaps it had already been determined that NE
                          would be annexed into Ward 4 by now, but that's just speculation
                          also:

                          http://www.neighborhoodaction.dc.gov/neighborhoodact/lib/neighborhooda
                          ct/Cluster2_final.pdf

                          Councilmember Graham say's he's going to deliver the
                          goods, and that NE is going to get their share-- I shouldn't
                          have any reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt
                          either, right?

                          John

                          --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire" <mail@i...>
                          wrote:
                          > John,
                          >
                          > I was complaining to high heaven to have a traffic study done
                          concerning
                          > development, and taking a lot of grief from some members of the
                          egroup
                          > because they don't think citizens should "diss" development plans.
                          >
                          > And why do you say I wasn't overjoyed or concerned about your
                          traffic
                          > concerns? I didn't and couldn't comment one way or another because
                          it is a
                          > situation I know nothing about.
                          >
                          > Besides I think of Columbia Heights as a single entity not a
                          collection of
                          > sub-neighborhoods each with it's own agenda. I am most interested in
                          > addressing common concerns.
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                          > To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:08 PM
                          > Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                          >
                          >
                          > > Dave,
                          > >
                          > > You didn't seem particularly overjoyed or concerned when
                          > > some of us in largely ungentrified NE Columbia Heights
                          > > were out in the cold going door-to-door with petitons
                          > > trying to get our traffic concerns addressed-- Tell me,
                          > > what did the rest of Columbia Heights and Adams Mill
                          > > Road have to do to be included in this thing?
                          > >
                          > > Your post:
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/message/8944
                          > >
                          > > J
                          > >
                          > > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire"
                          <mail@i...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > John,
                          > > >
                          > > > I wasn't bringing race and class into it. I was encouraging that
                          > > race and
                          > > > class be kept out of the issue.
                          > > >
                          > > > A statement like the following encourages the injection of class
                          > > issues.
                          > > > Folks living on those streets don't want more traffic being
                          forced
                          > > on them
                          > > > either. And those streets are still largely ungentrified and
                          > > minority.
                          > > >
                          > > > > DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > I hope those who pushed for a stop sign at 13th and Fairmont
                          will
                          > > not settle
                          > > > for just pushing the problem to another block and support
                          efforts
                          > > to reduce
                          > > > traffic on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage
                          > > traffic to
                          > > > move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
                          > > > > > David Pansegrouw
                          > > >
                          > > > Dave McIntire
                          > > >
                          > > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > > From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                          > > > To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 10:22 PM
                          > > > Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > > Dave,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I don't understand how, or why you are drawing race
                          > > > > into this. People on X street pay taxes just like
                          > > > > the people on Y street-- so consider the possibility
                          > > > > of having a process where our tax dollars can work for
                          > > > > the benefit of all of us. Now someone could make the
                          > > > > argument that X street pays more taxes than street Y,
                          > > > > or X street votes more than Y, or even X street
                          > > > > happens to be more "sexy" than Y, or whatever..
                          > > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > URL to this page on the web:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                        • William Jordan
                          John, You are pretty much on point here. A more optimal approach to many of CH traffic issues current and future would be an all-for-one-for-all approach,
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 3 2:41 PM

                            John,

                            You are pretty much on point here.   A more optimal approach to many of CH traffic issues current and future would be an all-for-one-for-all approach, but that is not our current "standard operating procedure".  We mainly operate from a everyone-on-their-own approach, which tends to yeild piece mill push the problem around solutions.  While everyone-on-their-own is suboptimal for CH, it works well politicians wishing to reward supporters.  

                            My hope had been that the current "Transporation Study" would be a new start of CH, affording an opportunity for a more all-for-one-for-all approach.  Clearly current and future traffic/parking issues are a concern of just about everyone in CH, no matter, race, age, class, ethnic group or CH sub-area.  My hope was this study would be a way to build and rebuild trust among stakeholders, intra-CH.  A study yielding near term and long term solutions, not a perfect world but some sound engineering and planning.  With Columbia Heights receiving the focused attention we deserve.   Now, with the boundaries of the study heading "westward" and it becoming a game of "get your street on the list," I am less optimistic.

                            William

                            blackcaesar20010 wrote:
                            Dave,
                             
                            It sure didn't read that way from your post ("Thanks Caroline?"),
                            but you're entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
                            
                            The fact is that we are a neighborhood of sub-divisions, like
                            University Heights, Meridian Hill, Holmead Manor, etc.  The
                            houses are different, the width of the streets, yards, and
                            even demographics are differ in some sections.  When it comes
                            to traffic, we do have different issues and concerns also.
                            
                            What we do have in common is the effect the development
                            will have with traffic in our neighborhoods.  But before
                            we get caught up in the future, don't you think it IS in
                            the best interest of us all if the existing traffic issues
                            aren't taken into account first?  How else are we going
                            to work on issues in common together?
                            
                            So I really don't care about getting into a debate into
                            which subdivision is benefiting the most from race or 
                            class privilege.  No one would ever admit to it if they 
                            were anyway, so it pointless.  I see it like this:  Give 
                            us the rules and procedure to work by, and make those 
                            resources available to us all so that we can enable and 
                            empower our communites.. period.  If one group feels 
                            guilty or angry about race or class priviege, then
                            it's their problem.  I just hope that those tax dollars
                            are working for the benefit of all of us.  
                            
                            Part of my concern stems from the original SNAP plan, where
                            New Hampshire between Georgia and Park was not to be included
                            in the study.  Perhaps it had already been determined that NE
                            would be annexed into Ward 4 by now, but that's just speculation
                            also:
                            
                            http://www.neighborhoodaction.dc.gov/neighborhoodact/lib/neighborhooda
                            ct/Cluster2_final.pdf 
                            
                            Councilmember Graham say's he's going to deliver the 
                            goods, and that NE is going to get their share-- I shouldn't
                            have any reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt
                            either, right?
                            
                            John
                            
                            --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire" <mail@i...> 
                            wrote:
                              
                            John,
                            
                            I was complaining to high heaven to have a traffic study done 
                                
                            concerning
                              
                            development, and taking a lot of grief from some members of the 
                                
                            egroup
                              
                            because they don't think citizens should "diss" development plans.
                            
                            And why do you say I wasn't overjoyed or concerned about your 
                                
                            traffic
                              
                            concerns? I didn't and couldn't comment one way or another because 
                                
                            it is a
                              
                            situation I know nothing about.
                            
                            Besides I think of Columbia Heights as a single entity not a 
                                
                            collection of
                              
                            sub-neighborhoods each with it's own agenda. I am most interested in
                            addressing common concerns.
                            
                            Dave
                            
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                            To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:08 PM
                            Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                            
                            
                                
                            Dave,
                            
                            You didn't seem particularly overjoyed or concerned when
                            some of us in largely ungentrified NE Columbia Heights
                            were out in the cold going door-to-door with petitons
                            trying to get our traffic concerns addressed-- Tell me,
                            what did the rest of Columbia Heights and Adams Mill
                            Road have to do to be included in this thing?
                            
                            Your post:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/message/8944
                            
                            J
                            
                            --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire" 
                                  
                            <mail@i...>
                              
                            wrote:
                                  
                            John,
                            
                            I wasn't bringing race and class into it. I was encouraging that
                                    
                            race and
                                  
                            class be kept out of the issue.
                            
                            A statement like the following encourages the injection of class
                                    
                            issues.
                                  
                            Folks living on those streets don't want more traffic being 
                                    
                            forced
                              
                            on them
                                  
                            either. And those streets are still largely ungentrified and
                                    
                            minority.
                                  
                            DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:
                            
                                      
                            I hope those who pushed for a stop sign at 13th and Fairmont 
                                    
                            will
                              
                            not settle
                                  
                            for just pushing the problem to another block and support 
                                    
                            efforts
                              
                            to reduce
                                  
                            traffic on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage
                                    
                            traffic to
                                  
                            move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
                                    
                               David Pansegrouw
                                        
                            Dave McIntire
                            
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                            To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 10:22 PM
                            Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                            
                            
                                    
                            Dave,
                            
                            I don't understand how, or why you are drawing race
                            into this.  People on X street pay taxes just like
                            the people on Y street-- so consider the possibility
                            of having a process where our tax dollars can work for
                            the benefit of all of us.  Now someone could make the
                            argument that X street pays more taxes than street Y,
                            or X street votes more than Y, or even X street
                            happens to be more "sexy" than Y, or whatever..
                            
                                      
                            URL to this page on the web:
                                  
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                                
                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
                                  
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              
                            
                                  
                            
                            URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                              
                            
                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
                            
                            
                            
                              

                          • Elizabeth
                            Megan, The scope of work for the traffic study, which David posted this morning, includes three more public meetings. The first was held Dec.2 with ANC s , and
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 3 3:24 PM
                              Megan,

                              The scope of work for the traffic study, which David posted this morning,
                              includes three more public meetings. The first was held Dec.2 with ANC's ,
                              and other "stakeholders"; it was attended by John Thomas and Elizabeth
                              McIntire(ANC 1A), Lawrence Guyot (ANC 1B), a commissioner-elect from
                              Mt.Pleasant, Eric Graye who is a professional transportation planner and CH
                              resident; Robert Moore of DCCH; Ken Laden, Director of DDOT;l Jim Graham;
                              DDOT Ward 1 and 2 planners; Reps from Office of Planning , Mayor's Office,
                              and NCRC; C. Corte from the Washington Network for Livable Communities; and
                              J.Houston from Howard University.

                              The first full fledged public meeting is supposed to take place sometime in
                              the second half of January, and it is certainly expected that comments from
                              that meeting will shape the study. In the meantime, read the draft scope of
                              work and forward your comments to Ken Laden at Ken.Laden@... and Heather
                              Brophy at 202-671-2227 or Heather.Brophy@... .

                              Elizabeth McIntire


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Megan Cytron" <megan@...>
                              To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 5:36 PM
                              Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign


                              > It seems like there is really a need for a public meeting/forum
                              > at which all of the various neighborhood subdivision/factions can
                              > discuss their issues with traffic and so that this can feed into
                              > the "master plan". Is this going to be part of "the study"?
                              >
                              > It's true, I live on 13th Street, so that's where I have put my
                              > biggest focus when it comes to pedestrian safety. That said, I
                              > don't think it is at all accurate or fair to characterize the
                              > changes on 13th as though they were at the request--or for the
                              > benefit of--newcomers (a.k.a. "the gentrifiers"). Ever since the
                              > construction on 14th ended and the metro opened (and actually
                              > well before it) many of my neighbors were organizing and urging
                              > that 13th be returned to a residential street--particularly those
                              > with children, renters and owners alike. I remember signing a
                              > petition about this in front of Tubman Elementary school at least
                              > 5 years ago...
                              >
                              > The diversion of commuter traffic to 13th during the metro
                              > construction was supposed to be temporary. That's why everyone
                              > raised such a stink after the metro opened. It took several years
                              > and countless letters and petitions from residents to get the
                              > change made.
                              >
                              >
                              > --Megan
                              >
                              >
                              > URL to this page on the web:
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • David McIntire
                              John, I am completely in the dark about what you are taking me to task for. I don t find myself much in disagreement with you. I think that perhaps you look at
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 3 5:37 PM
                                John,

                                I am completely in the dark about what you are taking me to task for. I
                                don't find myself much in disagreement with you. I think that perhaps you
                                look at things more narrowly than I am accustomed to.

                                Sure every person, street, house, yard, grain of sand is different in
                                Columbia Heights. The question is how do we deal with issues? My preference
                                is to deal with the issues we face from a neighborhood perspective. A
                                neighborhood has enough in common to do that and large enough, vote wise, to
                                have a political impact. If we get too used to dealing with issues street by
                                street, then we loose political impact. Besides, how can I have an opinion
                                about every stop sign in the neighborhood?

                                Sure I am interested in class issues. My wife and I have lived here for
                                almost 30 years. Our friends for most of the years were folks of moderate or
                                very moderate means. They are the ones who befriended us, helped us,
                                suffered with us, looked after our backs and taught us what grace and
                                compassion under great stress is all about. They have taught me, in many
                                ways, joy because joy can not be had without it's dark companion -
                                suffering.

                                We are benefiting now because we own our house. But those friends who do not
                                are in a tight situation and Columbia Heights over the years has been a
                                neighborhood of primarily renters, not owners.

                                So what would you have me do - say the hell with our poor and long time
                                friends, a new day has dawned? That is hardly the act of a friend.

                                I don't consider what effect my bringing up the issue has. I just feel
                                obligated to do it.

                                Dave McIntire

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: <blackcaesar20010@...>
                                To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 4:06 PM
                                Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign


                                > Dave,
                                >
                                > It sure didn't read that way from your post ("Thanks Caroline?"),
                                > but you're entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
                                >
                                > The fact is that we are a neighborhood of sub-divisions, like
                                > University Heights, Meridian Hill, Holmead Manor, etc. The
                                > houses are different, the width of the streets, yards, and
                                > even demographics are differ in some sections. When it comes
                                > to traffic, we do have different issues and concerns also.
                                >
                                > What we do have in common is the effect the development
                                > will have with traffic in our neighborhoods. But before
                                > we get caught up in the future, don't you think it IS in
                                > the best interest of us all if the existing traffic issues
                                > aren't taken into account first? How else are we going
                                > to work on issues in common together?
                                >
                                > So I really don't care about getting into a debate into
                                > which subdivision is benefiting the most from race or
                                > class privilege. No one would ever admit to it if they
                                > were anyway, so it pointless. I see it like this: Give
                                > us the rules and procedure to work by, and make those
                                > resources available to us all so that we can enable and
                                > empower our communites.. period. If one group feels
                                > guilty or angry about race or class priviege, then
                                > it's their problem. I just hope that those tax dollars
                                > are working for the benefit of all of us.
                                >
                                > Part of my concern stems from the original SNAP plan, where
                                > New Hampshire between Georgia and Park was not to be included
                                > in the study. Perhaps it had already been determined that NE
                                > would be annexed into Ward 4 by now, but that's just speculation
                                > also:
                                >
                                > http://www.neighborhoodaction.dc.gov/neighborhoodact/lib/neighborhooda
                                > ct/Cluster2_final.pdf
                                >
                                > Councilmember Graham say's he's going to deliver the
                                > goods, and that NE is going to get their share-- I shouldn't
                                > have any reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt
                                > either, right?
                                >
                                > John
                                >
                                > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire" <mail@i...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > John,
                                > >
                                > > I was complaining to high heaven to have a traffic study done
                                > concerning
                                > > development, and taking a lot of grief from some members of the
                                > egroup
                                > > because they don't think citizens should "diss" development plans.
                                > >
                                > > And why do you say I wasn't overjoyed or concerned about your
                                > traffic
                                > > concerns? I didn't and couldn't comment one way or another because
                                > it is a
                                > > situation I know nothing about.
                                > >
                                > > Besides I think of Columbia Heights as a single entity not a
                                > collection of
                                > > sub-neighborhoods each with it's own agenda. I am most interested in
                                > > addressing common concerns.
                                > >
                                > > Dave
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                                > > To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 1:08 PM
                                > > Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > Dave,
                                > > >
                                > > > You didn't seem particularly overjoyed or concerned when
                                > > > some of us in largely ungentrified NE Columbia Heights
                                > > > were out in the cold going door-to-door with petitons
                                > > > trying to get our traffic concerns addressed-- Tell me,
                                > > > what did the rest of Columbia Heights and Adams Mill
                                > > > Road have to do to be included in this thing?
                                > > >
                                > > > Your post:
                                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/message/8944
                                > > >
                                > > > J
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "David McIntire"
                                > <mail@i...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > > John,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I wasn't bringing race and class into it. I was encouraging that
                                > > > race and
                                > > > > class be kept out of the issue.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > A statement like the following encourages the injection of class
                                > > > issues.
                                > > > > Folks living on those streets don't want more traffic being
                                > forced
                                > > > on them
                                > > > > either. And those streets are still largely ungentrified and
                                > > > minority.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > DAVID PANSEGROUW wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > I hope those who pushed for a stop sign at 13th and Fairmont
                                > will
                                > > > not settle
                                > > > > for just pushing the problem to another block and support
                                > efforts
                                > > > to reduce
                                > > > > traffic on 11th St. too as part of a bigger effort to encourage
                                > > > traffic to
                                > > > > move to 14th, Sherman and Georgia.
                                > > > > > > David Pansegrouw
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Dave McIntire
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > > From: <blackcaesar20010@y...>
                                > > > > To: <columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 10:22 PM
                                > > > > Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Stop Sign
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > > Dave,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > I don't understand how, or why you are drawing race
                                > > > > > into this. People on X street pay taxes just like
                                > > > > > the people on Y street-- so consider the possibility
                                > > > > > of having a process where our tax dollars can work for
                                > > > > > the benefit of all of us. Now someone could make the
                                > > > > > argument that X street pays more taxes than street Y,
                                > > > > > or X street votes more than Y, or even X street
                                > > > > > happens to be more "sexy" than Y, or whatever..
                                > > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > URL to this page on the web:
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                >
                                >
                                > URL to this page on the web:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                              • blackcaesar20010 <blackcaesar20010@yahoo
                                Elizabeth, Do you know if the minutes were taken for that meeting, and if so, is there an electronic copy available? J ... morning, ... ANC s , ... Elizabeth
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 3 6:29 PM
                                  Elizabeth,

                                  Do you know if the minutes were taken for that meeting, and if
                                  so, is there an electronic copy available?

                                  J

                                  --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth" <elizabeth@i...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Megan,
                                  >
                                  > The scope of work for the traffic study, which David posted this
                                  morning,
                                  > includes three more public meetings. The first was held Dec.2 with
                                  ANC's ,
                                  > and other "stakeholders"; it was attended by John Thomas and
                                  Elizabeth
                                  > McIntire(ANC 1A), Lawrence Guyot (ANC 1B), a commissioner-elect from
                                  > Mt.Pleasant, Eric Graye who is a professional transportation
                                  planner and CH
                                  > resident; Robert Moore of DCCH; Ken Laden, Director of DDOT;l Jim
                                  Graham;
                                  > DDOT Ward 1 and 2 planners; Reps from Office of Planning , Mayor's
                                  Office,
                                  > and NCRC; C. Corte from the Washington Network for Livable
                                  Communities; and
                                  > J.Houston from Howard University.
                                  >
                                  > The first full fledged public meeting is supposed to take place
                                  sometime in
                                  > the second half of January, and it is certainly expected that
                                  comments from
                                  > that meeting will shape the study. In the meantime, read the draft
                                  scope of
                                  > work and forward your comments to Ken Laden at Ken.Laden@d... and
                                  Heather
                                  > Brophy at 202-671-2227 or Heather.Brophy@d... .
                                  >
                                  > Elizabeth McIntire
                                  >
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