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RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

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  • Richard Layman
    The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends of the Earth cweiss@foe.org ) had a presentation on a national bottle bill this past summer.
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 1, 2002
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      The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends of the Earth cweiss@...) had a presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer.  Part of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and beer companies that fight the local laws so diligently say "we want just one law to have to adhere to."  But part of the discussion was on local laws and what happened in DC. 

      Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in the U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of the anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first moved here.  (That's another reason I would never support Willie Wilson as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about the difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of the population.)

      As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city.  NYC is way cleaner by comparison.  And I am not knocking DPW.  At least on H Street NE, the City expends a lot of resources in daily cleaning of the corridor -- at least on the street -- but the sidewalks and treeboxes collect all kinds of bottles and cans.

      Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic beverage sales, and living in a semi-detached house, and just a few doors down from H Street I deal with this all the time.  I testified on alcoholic beverage license issues at the City Council in April.  Before going I ran around a couple blocks in my neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with bottles.  I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony but I almost got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance.  They claimed I could use them as weapons.  I had over 75 items from a few minutes of collecting within a few hundred feet of my house.  I wasn't able to display this evidence as part of my testimony.

      This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood commercial districts can't compete with suburban shopping options.  Who wants to come to a street that is trashy and full of drunks besides? 

      Bring on the bottle bill.

      Richard Layman

      >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)"
      >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
      >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)"
      >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
      >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500
      >
      >I'm very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not think it has been
      >'shot down every year', in fact think it has been a good dozen years or so
      >since anyone has brought it up.
      >
      >Know this, because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill' is
      >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their heads.
      >
      >Wonder if there isn't a general consensus in the community around a bottle
      >bill. The last time this came up I ran a newspaper and was paid handsomely
      >(in advertising) to oppose the bill.
      >
      >Now, working with the 'solid waste stream' every day, and as a resident of
      >the city, believe a bottle bill has a great many advantages and makes a lot
      >of sense.
      >
      >The attempt to create a bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to
      >distributers and the corporations that back them.
      >
      >Wonder if this is something the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly
      >impacts CH)!
      >
      >Jose Sueiro
      >Neighborhood Service Coordinator
      >Ward 1
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: ajstribling [mailto:ajstribling@...]
      >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:26 PM
      >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
      >
      >
      >You wouldn't need to enforce open container laws if you didn't have
      >the open container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last
      >time someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got accused
      >of "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets is
      >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a
      >continuation of this situation.
      >
      >And you could get rid of the empty bottles by passing a nickel
      >deposit bottle bill, but that one gets shot down every year, courtesy
      >the beverage industry and its lobbyists.
      >
      >--- In columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" wrote:
      > > I know it is not really the point of the article...but...I think if
      >it was
      > > not acceptable to get wasted in parking lots, in front of stores,
      >on
      > > corners, in parks, etc in our neighborhood, alot of the violent
      >crime here
      > > would never take place. Why aren't open container and public
      >drunkeness
      > > laws enforced?
      > >
      > > _________________________________________________________________
      > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
      > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
      >
      >
      >
      >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >


      Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! Click Here
    • Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
      Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been informative and fascinating. Councilman Graham is, once again, right on! As a
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 1, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been informative and fascinating.
         
        Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
         
        As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.
         
        Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?
         
        Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)
         
        Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at least 75 to 100 years?
         
        My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in mind?
         
         
        Jose Sueiro
        Neighborhood Services Corrdinator
        Ward 1 
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Richard Layman [mailto:rllayman@...]
        Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM
        To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

        The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends of the Earth cweiss@...) had a presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer.  Part of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and beer companies that fight the local laws so diligently say "we want just one law to have to adhere to."  But part of the discussion was on local laws and what happened in DC. 

        Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in the U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of the anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first moved here.  (That's another reason I would never support Willie Wilson as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about the difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of the population.)

        As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city.  NYC is way cleaner by comparison.  And I am not knocking DPW.  At least on H Street NE, the City expends a lot of resources in daily cleaning of the corridor -- at least on the street -- but the sidewalks and treeboxes collect all kinds of bottles and cans.

        Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic beverage sales, and living in a semi-detached house, and just a few doors down from H Street I deal with this all the time.  I testified on alcoholic beverage license issues at the City Council in April.  Before going I ran around a couple blocks in my neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with bottles.  I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony but I almost got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance.  They claimed I could use them as weapons.  I had over 75 items from a few minutes of collecting within a few hundred feet of my house.  I wasn't able to display this evidence as part of my testimony.

        This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood commercial districts can't compete with suburban shopping options.  Who wants to come to a street that is trashy and full of drunks besides? 

        Bring on the bottle bill.

        Richard Layman

        >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)"
        >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
        >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)"
        >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
        >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500
        >
        >I'm very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not think it has been
        >'shot down every year', in fact think it has been a good dozen years or so
        >since anyone has brought it up.
        >
        >Know this, because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill' is
        >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their heads.
        >
        >Wonder if there isn't a general consensus in the community around a bottle
        >bill. The last time this came up I ran a newspaper and was paid handsomely
        >(in advertising) to oppose the bill.
        >
        >Now, working with the 'solid waste stream' every day, and as a resident of
        >the city, believe a bottle bill has a great many advantages and makes a lot
        >of sense.
        >
        >The attempt to create a bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to
        >distributers and the corporations that back them.
        >
        >Wonder if this is something the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly
        >impacts CH)!
        >
        >Jose Sueiro
        >Neighborhood Service Coordinator
        >Ward 1
        >
        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: ajstribling [mailto:ajstribling@...]
        >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:26 PM
        >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
        >
        >
        >You wouldn't need to enforce open container laws if you didn't have
        >the open container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last
        >time someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got accused
        >of "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets is
        >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a
        >continuation of this situation.
        >
        >And you could get rid of the empty bottles by passing a nickel
        >deposit bottle bill, but that one gets shot down every year, courtesy
        >the beverage industry and its lobbyists.
        >
        >--- In columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" wrote:
        > > I know it is not really the point of the article...but...I think if
        >it was
        > > not acceptable to get wasted in parking lots, in front of stores,
        >on
        > > corners, in parks, etc in our neighborhood, alot of the violent
        >crime here
        > > would never take place. Why aren't open container and public
        >drunkeness
        > > laws enforced?
        > >
        > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
        > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
        >
        >
        >
        >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
        >
        >
        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >


        Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! Click Here
        URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/


        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      • Caroline Polk
        I think requiring that containers be biodegradable is a noble goal, but it needs to be done in conjunction with neighboring jurisdictions to truly have an
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 1, 2002
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          I think requiring that containers be biodegradable is a noble goal, but it needs to be done in conjunction with neighboring jurisdictions to truly have an impact. In the meantime, working toward a bottle bill might be a good thing. I'm certainly tired of seeing empty bottles pile up at the corner of 13th and Lamont. (By the way, I requested that DPW install a trash can there using the internet request form, but I only got a confirmation of my request. It's unclear whether a trash can will be installed.)
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Sueiro, Jose (EOM) [mailto:jose.sueiro@...]
          Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:10 AM
          To: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: Canavan, Patrick (EOM)
          Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

          Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been informative and fascinating.
           
          Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
           
          As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.
           
          Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?
           
          Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)
           
          Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at least 75 to 100 years?
           
          My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in mind?
           
           
          Jose Sueiro
          Neighborhood Services Corrdinator
          Ward 1 
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Richard Layman [mailto:rllayman@...]
          Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM
          To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

          The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends of the Earth cweiss@...) had a presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer.  Part of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and beer companies that fight the local laws so diligently say "we want just one law to have to adhere to."  But part of the discussion was on local laws and what happened in DC. 

          Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in the U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of the anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first moved here.  (That's another reason I would never support Willie Wilson as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about the difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of the population.)

          As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city.  NYC is way cleaner by comparison.  And I am not knocking DPW.  At least on H Street NE, the City expends a lot of resources in daily cleaning of the corridor -- at least on the street -- but the sidewalks and treeboxes collect all kinds of bottles and cans.

          Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic beverage sales, and living in a semi-detached house, and just a few doors down from H Street I deal with this all the time.  I testified on alcoholic beverage license issues at the City Council in April.  Before going I ran around a couple blocks in my neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with bottles.  I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony but I almost got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance.  They claimed I could use them as weapons.  I had over 75 items from a few minutes of collecting within a few hundred feet of my house.  I wasn't able to display this evidence as part of my testimony.

          This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood commercial districts can't compete with suburban shopping options.  Who wants to come to a street that is trashy and full of drunks besides? 

          Bring on the bottle bill.

          Richard Layman

          >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)"
          >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
          >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)"
          >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
          >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500
          >
          >I'm very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not think it has been
          >'shot down every year', in fact think it has been a good dozen years or so
          >since anyone has brought it up.
          >
          >Know this, because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill' is
          >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their heads.
          >
          >Wonder if there isn't a general consensus in the community around a bottle
          >bill. The last time this came up I ran a newspaper and was paid handsomely
          >(in advertising) to oppose the bill.
          >
          >Now, working with the 'solid waste stream' every day, and as a resident of
          >the city, believe a bottle bill has a great many advantages and makes a lot
          >of sense.
          >
          >The attempt to create a bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to
          >distributers and the corporations that back them.
          >
          >Wonder if this is something the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly
          >impacts CH)!
          >
          >Jose Sueiro
          >Neighborhood Service Coordinator
          >Ward 1
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: ajstribling [mailto:ajstribling@...]
          >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:26 PM
          >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
          >
          >
          >You wouldn't need to enforce open container laws if you didn't have
          >the open container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last
          >time someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got accused
          >of "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets is
          >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a
          >continuation of this situation.
          >
          >And you could get rid of the empty bottles by passing a nickel
          >deposit bottle bill, but that one gets shot down every year, courtesy
          >the beverage industry and its lobbyists.
          >
          >--- In columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" wrote:
          > > I know it is not really the point of the article...but...I think if
          >it was
          > > not acceptable to get wasted in parking lots, in front of stores,
          >on
          > > corners, in parks, etc in our neighborhood, alot of the violent
          >crime here
          > > would never take place. Why aren't open container and public
          >drunkeness
          > > laws enforced?
          > >
          > > _________________________________________________________________
          > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
          > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
          >
          >
          >
          >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
          >
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >


          Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! Click Here
          URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

          URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/


          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • William Jordan
          Jose, In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 1, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Jose,

            In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first glance, it all seems to add up.  In order to feed a larger number of people we need to be able to catch large(r) fish.  Large fish love to eat little fish, so using minnows makes goods sense.  Minnows are small, so trying to capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed.  Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net.  It all seems to make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes in crab nets are to large to capture minnows.

            I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between "quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems. But generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that gives us a brand new crab net.  Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work, capture a few minnows with crab net.

            The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to shooting.  From an objective perspective would you take serious some one talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or gang issues?  While, there is a relationship in the short term the relationship is too tangential.  Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds to the distrust described. If things where that simple we could just transfer a large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems licked in short order.  Waith a second,  that just might work, hmmm.   But, I will take the  "quality of life" approach seriously from government officials when I see the following actions.

            1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
            - The mayor moves  his main office into the hot spot.
            - The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
            - All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the hot spot.

            William







            354 3600
            Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:
            Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been informative and fascinating.
             
            Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
             
            As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.
             
            Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?
             
            Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)
             
            Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at least 75 to 100 years?
             
            My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in mind?
             
             
            Jose Sueiro
            Neighborhood Services Corrdinator
            Ward 1 
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Richard Layman [mailto:rllayman@...]
            Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM
            To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

            The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends of the Earth cweiss@...) had a presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer.  Part of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and beer companies that fight the local laws so diligently say "we want just one law to have to adhere to."  But part of the discussion was on local laws and what happened in DC. 

            Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in the U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of the anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first moved here.  (That's another reason I would never support Willie Wilson as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about the difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of the population.)

            As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city.  NYC is way cleaner by comparison.  And I am not knocking DPW.  At least on H Street NE, the City expends a lot of resources in daily cleaning of the corridor -- at least on the street -- but the sidewalks and treeboxes collect all kinds of bottles and cans.

            Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic beverage sales, and living in a semi-detached house, and just a few doors down from H Street I deal with this all the time.  I testified on alcoholic beverage license issues at the City Council in April.  Before going I ran around a couple blocks in my neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with bottles.  I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony but I almost got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance.  They claimed I could use them as weapons.  I had over 75 items from a few minutes of collecting within a few hundred feet of my house.  I wasn't able to display this evidence as part of my testimony.

            This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood commercial districts can't compete with suburban shopping options.  Who wants to come to a street that is trashy and full of drunks besides? 

            Bring on the bottle bill.

            Richard Layman

            >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)" >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500 > >I'm very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not think it has been >'shot down every year', in fact think it has been a good dozen years or so >since anyone has brought it up. > >Know this, because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill' is >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their heads. > >Wonder if there isn't a general consensus in the community around a bottle >bill. The last time this came up I ran a newspaper and was paid handsomely >(in advertising) to oppose the bill. > >Now, working with the 'solid waste stream' every day, and as a resident of >the city, believe a bottle bill has a great many advantages and makes a lot >of sense. > >The attempt to create a bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to >distributers and the corporations that back them. > >Wonder if this is something the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly >impacts CH)! > >Jose Sueiro >Neighborhood Service Coordinator >Ward 1 > >-----Original Message----- >From: ajstribling [mailto:ajstribling@...] >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:26 PM >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > >You wouldn't need to enforce open container laws if you didn't have >the open container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last >time someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got accused >of "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets is >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a >continuation of this situation. > >And you could get rid of the empty bottles by passing a nickel >deposit bottle bill, but that one gets shot down every year, courtesy >the beverage industry and its lobbyists. > >--- In columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" wrote: > > I know it is not really the point of the article...but...I think if >it was > > not acceptable to get wasted in parking lots, in front of stores, >on > > corners, in parks, etc in our neighborhood, alot of the violent >crime here > > would never take place. Why aren't open container and public >drunkeness > > laws enforced? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >


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          • Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
            Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming. Jose ... From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@melanet.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM) Cc:
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 2, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming.
              Jose
              -----Original Message-----
              From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@...]
              Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM
              To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
              Cc: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick (EOM)
              Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

              Jose,

              In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first glance, it all seems to add up.  In order to feed a larger number of people we need to be able to catch large(r) fish.  Large fish love to eat little fish, so using minnows makes goods sense.  Minnows are small, so trying to capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed.  Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net.  It all seems to make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes in crab nets are to large to capture minnows.

              I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between "quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems. But generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that gives us a brand new crab net.  Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work, capture a few minnows with crab net.

              The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to shooting.  From an objective perspective would you take serious some one talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or gang issues?  While, there is a relationship in the short term the relationship is too tangential.  Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds to the distrust described. If things where that simple we could just transfer a large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems licked in short order.  Waith a second,  that just might work, hmmm.   But, I will take the  "quality of life" approach seriously from government officials when I see the following actions.

              1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
              - The mayor moves  his main office into the hot spot.
              - The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
              - All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the hot spot.

              William







              354 3600
              Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:
              Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been informative and fascinating.
               
              Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
               
              As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.
               
              Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?
               
              Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)
               
              Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at least 75 to 100 years?
               
              My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in mind?
               
               
              Jose Sueiro
              Neighborhood Services Corrdinator
              Ward 1 
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Richard Layman [mailto:rllayman@...]
              Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM
              To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

              The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends of the Earth cweiss@...) had a presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer.  Part of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and beer companies that fight the local laws so diligently say "we want just one law to have to adhere to."  But part of the discussion was on local laws and what happened in DC. 

              Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in the U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of the anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first moved here.  (That's another reason I would never support Willie Wilson as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about the difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of the population.)

              As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city.  NYC is way cleaner by comparison.  And I am not knocking DPW.  At least on H Street NE, the City expends a lot of resources in daily cleaning of the corridor -- at least on the street -- but the sidewalks and treeboxes collect all kinds of bottles and cans.

              Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic beverage sales, and living in a semi-detached house, and just a few doors down from H Street I deal with this all the time.  I testified on alcoholic beverage license issues at the City Council in April.  Before going I ran around a couple blocks in my neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with bottles.  I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony but I almost got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance.  They claimed I could use them as weapons.  I had over 75 items from a few minutes of collecting within a few hundred feet of my house.  I wasn't able to display this evidence as part of my testimony.

              This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood commercial districts can't compete with suburban shopping options.  Who wants to come to a street that is trashy and full of drunks besides? 

              Bring on the bottle bill.

              Richard Layman

              >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)" >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500 > >I'm very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not think it has been >'shot down every year', in fact think it has been a good dozen years or so >since anyone has brought it up. > >Know this, because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill' is >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their heads. > >Wonder if there isn't a general consensus in the community around a bottle >bill. The last time this came up I ran a newspaper and was paid handsomely >(in advertising) to oppose the bill. > >Now, working with the 'solid waste stream' every day, and as a resident of >the city, believe a bottle bill has a great many advantages and makes a lot >of sense. > >The attempt to create a bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to >distributers and the corporations that back them. > >Wonder if this is something the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly >impacts CH)! > >Jose Sueiro >Neighborhood Service Coordinator >Ward 1 > >-----Original Message----- >From: ajstribling [mailto:ajstribling@...] >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:26 PM >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > >You wouldn't need to enforce open container laws if you didn't have >the open container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last >time someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got accused >of "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets is >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a >continuation of this situation. > >And you could get rid of the empty bottles by passing a nickel >deposit bottle bill, but that one gets shot down every year, courtesy >the beverage industry and its lobbyists. > >--- In columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" wrote: > > I know it is not really the point of the article...but...I think if >it was > > not acceptable to get wasted in parking lots, in front of stores, >on > > corners, in parks, etc in our neighborhood, alot of the violent >crime here > > would never take place. Why aren't open container and public >drunkeness > > laws enforced? > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >


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            • William Jordan
              ... Please don t give up the dreams. William ... Patrick ... using a ... first ... people ... little ... trying to ... needed. ... seems to ... the holes ...
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 2, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                :)

                Please don't give up the dreams.

                William
                >
                > Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming.
                > Jose
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@...]
                > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM
                > To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
                > Cc: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan,
                Patrick
                > (EOM)
                > Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                >
                >
                > Jose,
                >
                > In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as
                using a
                > crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At
                first
                > glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a larger number of
                people
                > we need to be able to catch large(r) fish. Large fish love to eat
                little
                > fish, so using minnows makes goods sense. Minnows are small, so
                trying to
                > capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is
                needed.
                > Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net. It all
                seems to
                > make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because
                the holes
                > in crab nets are to large to capture minnows.
                >
                > I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between
                > "quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems.
                But
                > generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that
                gives us a
                > brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some
                work,
                > capture a few minnows with crab net.
                >
                > The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the
                > shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up
                to
                > shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious some
                one
                > talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or
                gang
                > issues? While, there is a relationship in the short term the
                relationship
                > is too tangential. Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds
                to the
                > distrust described. If things where that simple we could just
                transfer a
                > large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these
                problems
                > licked in short order. Waith a second, that just might work,
                hmmm. But,
                > I will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from government
                > officials when I see the following actions.
                >
                > 1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
                > - The mayor moves his main office into the hot spot.
                > - The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
                > - All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the
                hot
                > spot.
                >
                > William
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > 354 3600
                > Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:
                >
                >
                > Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have
                been
                > informative and fascinating.
                >
                > Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
                >
                > As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a
                city
                > computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or
                eliminate
                > the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we
                do. My
                > ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with
                what I
                > say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.
                >
                > Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to
                > emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and
                > environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary
                importance
                > or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside
                > regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations,
                other
                > heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about
                your
                > surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and
                independence?
                >
                > Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in
                ways that
                > make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity,
                attractive to
                > everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)
                >
                > Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a
                law, if
                > you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of
                C. you
                > have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in
                at
                > least 75 to 100 years?
                >
                > My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more
                > disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on
                all the
                > plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the
                > shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.)
                in
                > mind?
                >
                >
                > Jose Sueiro
                > Neighborhood Services Corrdinator
                > Ward 1
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Richard Layman [ mailto:rllayman@...
                > <mailto:rllayman@...> ]
                > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM
                > To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                >
                >
                >
                > The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends of the
                Earth
                > cweiss@... <mailto:cweiss@...> ) had a presentation on
                a "national
                > bottle bill" this past summer. Part of the reason for working at
                that level
                > is that the soda and beer companies that fight the local laws so
                diligently
                > say "we want just one law to have to adhere to." But part of the
                discussion
                > was on local laws and what happened in DC.
                >
                > Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 cents/bottle)
                and
                > therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are recycled, which is far and
                away
                > the most successful rate in the U.S., I was shocked to see the
                virulence and
                > race baiting of the anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I
                first
                > moved here. (That's another reason I would never support Willie
                Wilson as
                > he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry rounded up
                the
                > black clergy to make the arguments about the difficulties such a bill
                would
                > impose on various segments of the population.)
                >
                > As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city. NYC is way
                cleaner by
                > comparison. And I am not knocking DPW. At least on H Street NE, the
                City
                > expends a lot of resources in daily cleaning of the corridor -- at
                least on
                > the street -- but the sidewalks and treeboxes collect all kinds of
                bottles
                > and cans.
                >
                > Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic beverage
                sales,
                > and living in a semi-detached house, and just a few doors down from H
                Street
                > I deal with this all the time. I testified on alcoholic beverage
                license
                > issues at the City Council in April. Before going I ran around a
                couple
                > blocks in my neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with
                > bottles. I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony but I
                almost
                > got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance. They claimed I
                could
                > use them as weapons. I had over 75 items from a few minutes of
                collecting
                > within a few hundred feet of my house. I wasn't able to display this
                > evidence as part of my testimony.
                >
                > This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood
                commercial
                > districts can't compete with suburban shopping options. Who wants to
                come
                > to a street that is trashy and full of drunks besides?
                >
                > Bring on the bottle bill.
                >
                > Richard Layman
                >
                >
                >
                > >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com> >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)"
                > >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Wed,
                30 Oct
                > 2002 15:55:34 -0500 > >I'm very interested in the so called "bottle
                bill".
                > Do not think it has been >'shot down every year', in fact think it
                has been
                > a good dozen years or so >since anyone has brought it up. > >Know
                this,
                > because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill' is
                >enough to
                > get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their heads. > >Wonder if
                there
                > isn't a general consensus in the community around a bottle >bill. The
                last
                > time this came up I ran a newspaper and was paid handsomely >(in
                > advertising) to oppose the bill. > >Now, working with the 'solid waste
                > stream' every day, and as a resident of >the city, believe a bottle
                bill has
                > a great many advantages and makes a lot >of sense. > >The attempt to
                create
                > a bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to >distributers
                and the
                > corporations that back them. > >Wonder if this is something the CH
                egroup
                > has opinions on (it certainly >impacts CH)! > >Jose Sueiro
                >Neighborhood
                > Service Coordinator >Ward 1 > >-----Original Message----- >From:
                ajstribling
                > [ mailto:ajstribling@... <mailto:ajstribling@...> ] >Sent:
                > Wednesday, October 30, 2002 1:26 PM >To:
                columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com> >Subject:
                [columbia_heights] Re:
                > Interesting Article > > >You wouldn't need to enforce open container
                laws if
                > you didn't have >the open container there in the first place.
                Unfortunately,
                > the last >time someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got
                accused
                > >of "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets is
                > >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a
                >continuation
                > of this situation. > >And you could get rid of the empty bottles by
                passing
                > a nickel >deposit bottle bill, but that one gets shot down every year,
                > courtesy >the beverage industry and its lobbyists. > >--- In
                > columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" wrote: > > I know it is not
                really the
                > point of the article...but...I think if >it was > > not acceptable to
                get
                > wasted in parking lots, in front of stores, >on > > corners, in
                parks, etc
                > in our neighborhood, alot of the violent >crime here > > would never
                take
                > place. Why aren't open container and public >drunkeness > > laws
                enforced? >
                > > > >
                _________________________________________________________________ > >
                > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > >
                > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
                > <http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963> > > >
                >URL to
                > this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/> > > >Your use of
                Yahoo!
                > Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! Click Here
                > <http://g.msn.com/8HMJEN/2015>
                > URL to this page on the web:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/>
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                >
                >
                >
                > URL to this page on the web:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/>
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                --
                MelaNet LC
              • Richard Layman
                In revitalization, it s necessary to address a wide variety of issues simultaneously and comprehensively. Cleanliness is incredibly important, as it is one of
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 2, 2002
                • 0 Attachment

                  In revitalization, it's necessary to address a wide variety of issues simultaneously and comprehensively.  Cleanliness is incredibly important, as it is one of the most significant influences on perceptions.

                  Regardless, William Whyte in _City: Rediscovering the Center_ makes the following point:  


                  "The biggest single obstacle to the provision of better spaces
                  is the undesirables problem. They are themselves not too
                  much of a problem. It is the actions taken to combat
                  them that is the problem....the best way to handle the
                  problem of undesirables is to make a place attractive to
                  everyone else."

                  When more people are on the street, shopping, eating, going to and from entertainments, etc., the people who conduct less desirable behaviors, from drug sales and/or use to urination, not to mention unsightly drunkenness will be "crowded" out by more positive behavior.  They'll feel less comfortable.  They may not change their behavior, but they probably will move on.

                  Bottle bills help in cleanliness as well as environmentally.  As I said, coming from Michigan, it still floors me at times how uncleanly the city is -- and a big part of this is that people feel no sense of ownership of the streetspace, which is why they have no problem in throwing anything anywhere.  It has nothing to do with the presence or lack thereof of trashcans.  There is a trash can immediately in front of a bus stop on my block (3 feet or less from the shelter) and the bus shelter is frequently trashed up.  Etc. 

                  Shootings are a whole other issue.  The fact that 80%+ of murders involve people that know each other (the recent sniper incidents notwithstanding) means that addressing this requires intelligence and the proper focus.  But that would be the subject of another email.

                  Inaction is hardly a course I'd recommend.  And I hardly think a bottle bill is the most important piece of a neighborhood revitalization effort.  But considering the general disgusting nature of DC's streets, compared to states that have such legislation, a thinking person ought to be interested in figuring out why there is a difference.

                  Richard Layman



                  >From: William Jordan
                  >To: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)"
                  >CC: "'Richard Layman'" , columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "Canavan, Patrick (EOM)"
                  >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                  >Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 17:25:41 -0500
                  >
                  > Jose,
                  >
                  >In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as
                  >using a crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger
                  >fish. At first glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a
                  >larger number of people we need to be able to catch large(r) fish.
                  >Large fish love to eat little fish, so using minnows makes goods
                  >sense. Minnows are small, so trying to capture them with a hook
                  >makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed. Crab nets are easy
                  >to find and cheap so we have our net. It all seems to make sense and
                  >is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes in
                  >crab nets are to large to capture minnows.
                  >
                  >I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection
                  >between "quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger
                  >problems. But generally, we end up with policies and feel good
                  >legislation that gives us a brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong
                  >you can, actually with some work, capture a few minnows with crab
                  >net.
                  >
                  >The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the
                  >shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up
                  >to shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious
                  >some one talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about
                  >shootings or gang issues? While, there is a relationship in the
                  >short term the relationship is too tangential. Mixing the two in so
                  >casual a fashion just adds to the distrust described. If things
                  >where that simple we could just transfer a large portions of
                  >criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems licked in
                  >short order. Waith a second, that just might work, hmmm. But, I
                  >will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from government
                  >officials when I see the following actions.
                  >
                  >1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
                  >- The mayor moves his main office into the hot spot.
                  >- The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
                  >- All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the
                  >hot spot.
                  >
                  >William
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >354 3600
                  >Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:
                  >
                  >>Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup
                  >>have been informative and fascinating.
                  >> Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
                  >> As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on
                  >>a city computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate,
                  >>ameliorate or eliminate the various trash problems we face is very
                  >>definitely part of what we do. My ideas are sometimes 'free form',
                  >>so I will try and be careful with what I say and how I say it, but
                  >>here are some other thoughts.
                  >> Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts
                  >>to emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and
                  >>environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary
                  >>importance or in the extreme some sort of government imposed,
                  >>repressive, outside regulation. Of course crime, our schools,
                  >>police/community relations, other heavier topics are of greater
                  >>concern, but isn't feeling good about your surroundings the first
                  >>step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?
                  >> Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in
                  >>ways that make them part of the fabric of a working class
                  >>communiity, attractive to everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens
                  >>should be thinking about?)
                  >> Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule
                  >>(a law, if you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers
                  >>in the D. of C. you have to certify that they are biodegradable and
                  >>will disintegrate in at least 75 to 100 years?
                  >> My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing
                  >>more disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking
                  >>out on all the plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever)
                  >>that wash up on the shore. Are any of these products made with
                  >>'biodegradability', (sic.) in mind?
                  >> Jose Sueiro
                  >>Neighborhood Services Corrdinator
                  >>Ward 1
                  >>
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> From: Richard Layman [mailto:rllayman@...]
                  >> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM
                  >> To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                  >>
                  >> The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends
                  >>of
                  >> the Earth cweiss@... ) had a
                  >> presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer.
                  >>Part
                  >> of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and
                  >>beer
                  >> companies that fight the local laws so diligently say "we want
                  >> just one law to have to adhere to." But part of the
                  >>discussion
                  >> was on local laws and what happened in DC.
                  >>
                  >> Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10
                  >> cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are
                  >> recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in
                  >>the
                  >> U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of
                  >>the
                  >> anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first moved
                  >> here. (That's another reason I would never support Willie
                  >>Wilson
                  >> as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry
                  >> rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about the
                  >> difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of
                  >>the
                  >> population.)
                  >>
                  >> As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city. NYC is
                  >>way
                  >> cleaner by comparison. And I am not knocking DPW. At least
                  >>on H
                  >> Street NE, the City expends a lot of resources in daily
                  >>cleaning
                  >> of the corridor -- at least on the street -- but the sidewalks
                  >>and
                  >> treeboxes collect all kinds of bottles and cans.
                  >>
                  >> Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic
                  >> beverage sales, and living in a semi-detached house, and just
                  >>a
                  >> few doors down from H Street I deal with this all the time. I
                  >> testified on alcoholic beverage license issues at the City
                  >>Council
                  >> in April. Before going I ran around a couple blocks in my
                  >> neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with
                  >>bottles. I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony
                  >>but I almost
                  >> got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance. They
                  >> claimed I could use them as weapons. I had over 75 items from
                  >>a
                  >> few minutes of collecting within a few hundred feet of my
                  >>house. I wasn't able to display this evidence as part of my
                  >>testimony.
                  >>
                  >> This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood
                  >> commercial districts can't compete with suburban shopping
                  >> options. Who wants to come to a street that is trashy and
                  >>full of
                  >> drunks besides?
                  >>
                  >> Bring on the bottle bill.
                  >>
                  >> Richard Layman
                  >>
                  >> >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >To:
                  >>columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                  >> >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)" >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re:
                  >> Interesting Article >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500 >
                  >> >I'm
                  >> very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not think
                  >>it
                  >> has been >'shot down every year', in fact think it has been a
                  >>good
                  >> dozen years or so >since anyone has brought it up. > >Know
                  >>this,
                  >> because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill'
                  >>is
                  >> >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their
                  >>heads.
                  >> > >Wonder if there isn't a general consensus in the community
                  >> around a bottle >bill. The last time this came up I ran a
                  >> newspaper and was paid handsomely >(in advertising) to oppose
                  >>the
                  >> bill. > >Now, working with the 'solid waste stream' every day,
                  >>and
                  >> as a resident of >the city, believe a bottle bill has a great
                  >>many
                  >> advantages and makes a lot >of sense. > >The attempt to create
                  >>a
                  >> bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to
                  >> >distributers
                  >> and the corporations that back them. > >Wonder if this is
                  >> something the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly >impacts
                  >> CH)! > >Jose Sueiro >Neighborhood Service Coordinator >Ward 1
                  >> >
                  >> >-----Original Message----- >From: ajstribling
                  >> [mailto:ajstribling@...] >Sent: Wednesday, October 30,
                  >>2002
                  >> 1:26 PM >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >Subject:
                  >> [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > >You wouldn't
                  >>need
                  >> to enforce open container laws if you didn't have >the open
                  >> container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last
                  >> >time
                  >> someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got accused
                  >> >of
                  >> "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets
                  >>is
                  >> >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a
                  >> >continuation of this situation. > >And you could get rid of
                  >>the
                  >> empty bottles by passing a nickel >deposit bottle bill, but
                  >>that
                  >> one gets shot down every year, courtesy >the beverage industry
                  >>and
                  >> its lobbyists. > >--- In columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka"
                  >> wrote: > > I know it is not really the point of the
                  >> article...but...I think if >it was > > not acceptable to get
                  >> wasted in parking lots, in front of stores, >on > > corners,
                  >>in
                  >> parks, etc in our neighborhood, alot of the violent >crime
                  >>here >
                  >> > would never take place. Why aren't open container and public
                  >> >drunkeness > > laws enforced? > > > >
                  >>
                  >>_________________________________________________________________
                  >> > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > >
                  >> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > >
                  >> >
                  >> >URL to this page on the web:
                  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > >Your use
                  >>of
                  >> Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >> Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! Click
                  >> Here
                  >> URL to this page on the web:
                  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  >> Service .
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>URL to this page on the web:
                  >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                  >> .
                  >
                  >


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                • William Jordan
                  One of Columbia Height s biggest problems is a lack of usable public spaces and spaces of public accommodations. This especially compounded by the fact that
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 3, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment

                    One of Columbia Height's biggest problems is a lack of  usable public spaces and spaces of public accommodations.  This especially compounded by the fact that culturally many persons living in CH tend toward public gatherings.  Verbal personal interaction is very important.    Without decent well designed parks, resturants, side walk cafes,  social clubs, informal your gather spots we compound our problems.  One of the unfortunate problems with the residential development scheduled for CH parcels is that we will be adding people to an already dense area without any planning for good public spaces.  Basically, people drank publicly the way they do becuase there are not alternatives. Although some people need treatment for dranking problems, we still need places for acceptable public dranking.   In other areas of the city side walk cafes serve this purpose as long with bars, clubs and resturants. With basically a clean development slate, we should be able to address these and other issues. But unfortunately, we have been busy majoring in minors.

                    I supported the previous attempt at a bottle bill mainly becuase I felt it would help reduce the amount of broken glass.  Broken glass basically kills the use of pubilc spaces for young children.  I also spoke with many of the small neighborhood business at the time and they tended to oppose the bill.  Primarily because logicistically, the city would be dumbing the burden of the bill on their backs.  Many, of these business don't have the space or man power to handle bottle processing.  Considering, how difficult it was for the city to get recycling straight, I can understand their concern with how the details of a bottle bill would work.

                    Again, most of the basic ideas for things like the bottle bill are good. But we have a City Council who is trigger happy in passing poorly thought through feel good legislation seeking to score easy points with residents, while rolling over and failing to protect citizens from the whims, pet projects of congress, thinkthanks, consultants, big developers and down town interest. Or the behavoirs of real criminals and thugs, they want us to believe that real crime fighting is moving some drunks along and holding press conferences.  It just amazes me that Alice Rivlin, who we did not elect to anything, has more influence on neighborhood development and planning policies than our elected officials. I am really pretty sick of DC basing it policies on a white paper or study some thinktank guru wrote.   I am one who thinks it's important for the city to have a balanced budget, but a balance budget should not drive the policies and priorities of this city.  The needs, wants and visions  of its residents should.  Unfortunately, we don't have many elected officials with that kind of guts.

                    William



                    Richard Layman wrote:

                    In revitalization, it's necessary to address a wide variety of issues simultaneously and comprehensively.  Cleanliness is incredibly important, as it is one of the most significant influences on perceptions.

                    Regardless, William Whyte in _City: Rediscovering the Center_ makes the following point:  


                    "The biggest single obstacle to the provision of better spaces
                    is the undesirables problem. They are themselves not too
                    much of a problem. It is the actions taken to combat
                    them that is the problem....the best way to handle the
                    problem of undesirables is to make a place attractive to
                    everyone else."

                    When more people are on the street, shopping, eating, going to and from entertainments, etc., the people who conduct less desirable behaviors, from drug sales and/or use to urination, not to mention unsightly drunkenness will be "crowded" out by more positive behavior.  They'll feel less comfortable.  They may not change their behavior, but they probably will move on.

                    Bottle bills help in cleanliness as well as environmentally.  As I said, coming from Michigan, it still floors me at times how uncleanly the city is -- and a big part of this is that people feel no sense of ownership of the streetspace, which is why they have no problem in throwing anything anywhere.  It has nothing to do with the presence or lack thereof of trashcans.  There is a trash can immediately in front of a bus stop on my block (3 feet or less from the shelter) and the bus shelter is frequently trashed up.  Etc. 

                    Shootings are a whole other issue.  The fact that 80%+ of murders involve people that know each other (the recent sniper incidents notwithstanding) means that addressing this requires intelligence and the proper focus.  But that would be the subject of another email.

                    Inaction is hardly a course I'd recommend.  And I hardly think a bottle bill is the most important piece of a neighborhood revitalization effort.  But considering the general disgusting nature of DC's streets, compared to states that have such legislation, a thinking person ought to be interested in figuring out why there is a difference.

                    Richard Layman



                    >From: William Jordan >To: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >CC: "'Richard Layman'" , columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "Canavan, Patrick (EOM)" >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 17:25:41 -0500 > > Jose, > >In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as >using a crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger >fish. At first glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a >larger number of people we need to be able to catch large(r) fish. >Large fish love to eat little fish, so using minnows makes goods >sense. Minnows are small, so trying to capture them with a hook >makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed. Crab nets are easy >to find and cheap so we have our net. It all seems to make sense and >is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes in >crab nets are to large to capture minnows. > >I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection >between "quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger >problems. But generally, we end up with policies and feel good >legislation that gives us a brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong >you can, actually with some work, capture a few minnows with crab >net. > >The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the >shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up >to shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious >some one talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about >shootings or gang issues? While, there is a relationship in the >short term the relationship is too tangential. Mixing the two in so >casual a fashion just adds to the distrust described. If things >where that simple we could just transfer a large portions of >criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems licked in >short order. Waith a second, that just might work, hmmm. But, I >will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from government >officials when I see the following actions. > >1. Hot Spot gets decleared. >- The mayor moves his main office into the hot spot. >- The council member moves his main office into the hot spot. >- All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the >hot spot. > >William > > > > > > > >354 3600 >Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote: > >>Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup >>have been informative and fascinating. >> Councilman Graham is, once again, right on! >> As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on >>a city computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, >>ameliorate or eliminate the various trash problems we face is very >>definitely part of what we do. My ideas are sometimes 'free form', >>so I will try and be careful with what I say and how I say it, but >>here are some other thoughts. >> Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts >>to emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and >>environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary >>importance or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, >>repressive, outside regulation. Of course crime, our schools, >>police/community relations, other heavier topics are of greater >>concern, but isn't feeling good about your surroundings the first >>step in creating pride, self esteem and independence? >> Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in >>ways that make them part of the fabric of a working class >>communiity, attractive to everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens >>should be thinking about?) >> Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule >>(a law, if you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers >>in the D. of C. you have to certify that they are biodegradable and >>will disintegrate in at least 75 to 100 years? >> My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing >>more disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking >>out on all the plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) >>that wash up on the shore. Are any of these products made with >>'biodegradability', (sic.) in mind? >> Jose Sueiro >>Neighborhood Services Corrdinator >>Ward 1 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Layman [mailto:rllayman@...] >> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM >> To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >> >> The DC Environmental Network (contact Chris Weiss at Friends >>of >> the Earth cweiss@... ) had a >> presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer. >>Part >> of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and >>beer >> companies that fight the local laws so diligently say "we want >> just one law to have to adhere to." But part of the >>discussion >> was on local laws and what happened in DC. >> >> Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 >> cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are >> recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in >>the >> U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of >>the >> anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first moved >> here. (That's another reason I would never support Willie >>Wilson >> as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the industry >> rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about the >> difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of >>the >> population.) >> >> As a result, we live in a dirty, mean looking city. NYC is >>way >> cleaner by comparison. And I am not knocking DPW. At least >>on H >> Street NE, the City expends a lot of resources in daily >>cleaning >> of the corridor -- at least on the street -- but the sidewalks >>and >> treeboxes collect all kinds of bottles and cans. >> >> Living in a neighborhood which is over-stored for alcoholic >> beverage sales, and living in a semi-detached house, and just >>a >> few doors down from H Street I deal with this all the time. I >> testified on alcoholic beverage license issues at the City >>Council >> in April. Before going I ran around a couple blocks in my >> neighborhood and collected two milk crates brimming with >>bottles. I attempted to bring them in as part of my testimony >>but I almost >> got arrested because I was insistent at the entrance. They >> claimed I could use them as weapons. I had over 75 items from >>a >> few minutes of collecting within a few hundred feet of my >>house. I wasn't able to display this evidence as part of my >>testimony. >> >> This mess is one of the ways in which our local neighborhood >> commercial districts can't compete with suburban shopping >> options. Who wants to come to a street that is trashy and >>full of >> drunks besides? >> >> Bring on the bottle bill. >> >> Richard Layman >> >> >From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >To: >>columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >> >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)" >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: >> Interesting Article >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500 > >> >I'm >> very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not think >>it >> has been >'shot down every year', in fact think it has been a >>good >> dozen years or so >since anyone has brought it up. > >Know >>this, >> because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of a 'bottle bill' >>is >> >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to the back of their >>heads. >> > >Wonder if there isn't a general consensus in the community >> around a bottle >bill. The last time this came up I ran a >> newspaper and was paid handsomely >(in advertising) to oppose >>the >> bill. > >Now, working with the 'solid waste stream' every day, >>and >> as a resident of >the city, believe a bottle bill has a great >>many >> advantages and makes a lot >of sense. > >The attempt to create >>a >> bottle bill is poison not only to politicians but to >> >distributers >> and the corporations that back them. > >Wonder if this is >> something the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly >impacts >> CH)! > >Jose Sueiro >Neighborhood Service Coordinator >Ward 1 >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >From: ajstribling >> [mailto:ajstribling@...] >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, >>2002 >> 1:26 PM >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >Subject: >> [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > >You wouldn't >>need >> to enforce open container laws if you didn't have >the open >> container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last >> >time >> someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got accused >> >of >> "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as public toilets >>is >> >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice, look forward to a >> >continuation of this situation. > >And you could get rid of >>the >> empty bottles by passing a nickel >deposit bottle bill, but >>that >> one gets shot down every year, courtesy >the beverage industry >>and >> its lobbyists. > >--- In columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" >> wrote: > > I know it is not really the point of the >> article...but...I think if >it was > > not acceptable to get >> wasted in parking lots, in front of stores, >on > > corners, >>in >> parks, etc in our neighborhood, alot of the violent >crime >>here > >> > would never take place. Why aren't open container and public >> >drunkeness > > laws enforced? > > > > >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >> > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > >> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > >> > >> >URL to this page on the web: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > >Your use >>of >> Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! Click >> Here >> URL to this page on the web: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> Service . >> >> >>URL to this page on the web: >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ >> >> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >> . > >


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                  • Ricks, Karina (OP)
                    Jose, I watch the Columbia Heights listserve, but (like many I suspect) don t contribute to it for fear of the public flogging that often occurs (so much for
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 4, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Jose,

                      I watch the Columbia Heights listserve, but (like many I suspect) don't
                      contribute to it for fear of the public flogging that often occurs (so much
                      for open community dialogue). I'll risk that, however, because this is a
                      dear topic to me.

                      The "broken window phenomenon" has been well documented time and again. The
                      basic story is that if a window is broken and allowed to remain, it may then
                      attract trash, litter and other signs of decay and abandonment. If these
                      too go unaddressed, it in essence implies that no one cares about this place
                      and the physical chaos could indicate that social chaos will also go
                      unaddressed.

                      Well we know Columbia Heights is not a place where "no one cares." Neighbor
                      clearly are vigilant in fighting those broken windows and keeping our
                      neighborhood looking lived in and looked after. But its a never ending
                      battle - particularly with the broken bottles.

                      A bottle bill will work. I moved here from Michigan - where glass and
                      plastic bottles command a 10 cent deposit and have since the mid-1970's.
                      Not only did the bottle bill markedly clean up our urban areas and roadsides
                      and cut down on the waste going to our landfills, but it was also provided a
                      modest income to those who put the muscle into collecting the bottles -
                      oftentimes young people, students, and the near-homeless.

                      In Michigan we also found the unintended benefit of many unclaimed bottle
                      deposits - people who had bought sodas, etc. and never returned the bottle
                      to claim the deposit. This added up to literally millions of dollars over
                      time. For years that unclaimed deposit accrued to the bottlers (Coca-Cola,
                      etc.) until someone wisely pointed out that this money is not the property
                      of the bottlers but rather the state that invoked the legislation. Those
                      unclaimed deposit funds now go to public education.

                      Certainly the bottle bill will not solve all social ills - after all
                      Michigan claims Detroit and Flint which have both held the title of Murder
                      Capitol, USA at one time or another. A bottle bill is certainly a small
                      step in the face of the many large issues that loom over this city, but it
                      is a step nonetheless.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      ________________________________________________________________________

                      Message: 2
                      Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:22 -0500
                      From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" <jose.sueiro@...>
                      Subject: RE: Re: Interesting Article

                      Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming.
                      Jose

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@...]
                      Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM
                      To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
                      Cc: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick
                      (EOM)
                      Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article


                      Jose,

                      In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a
                      crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first
                      glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a larger number of people
                      we need to be able to catch large(r) fish. Large fish love to eat little
                      fish, so using minnows makes goods sense. Minnows are small, so trying to
                      capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed.
                      Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net. It all seems to
                      make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes
                      in crab nets are to large to capture minnows.

                      I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between
                      "quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems. But
                      generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that gives us a
                      brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work,
                      capture a few minnows with crab net.

                      The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the
                      shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to
                      shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious some one
                      talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or gang
                      issues? While, there is a relationship in the short term the relationship
                      is too tangential. Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds to the
                      distrust described. If things where that simple we could just transfer a
                      large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems
                      licked in short order. Waith a second, that just might work, hmmm. But,
                      I will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from government
                      officials when I see the following actions.

                      1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
                      - The mayor moves his main office into the hot spot.
                      - The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
                      - All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the hot
                      spot.

                      William







                      354 3600
                      Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:


                      Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been
                      informative and fascinating.

                      Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!

                      As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city
                      computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate
                      the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My
                      ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I
                      say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.

                      Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to
                      emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and
                      environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance
                      or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside
                      regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other
                      heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your
                      surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?

                      Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that
                      make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to
                      everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)

                      Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if
                      you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you
                      have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at
                      least 75 to 100 years?

                      My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more
                      disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the
                      plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the
                      shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in
                      mind?


                      Jose Sueiro
                      Neighborhood Services Coordinator
                      Ward 1
                    • Caroline Polk
                      Most people I ve talked to seem to support a bottle bill. It might help reduce the costs of the recycling program, too. Is there any chance DC could implement
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 4, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Most people I've talked to seem to support a bottle bill. It might help reduce the costs of the recycling program, too. Is there any chance DC could implement such a bill in the near future?
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Ricks, Karina (OP) [mailto:karina.ricks@...]
                        Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:31 AM
                        To: 'columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com'
                        Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article

                        Jose,

                        I watch the Columbia Heights listserve, but (like many I suspect) don't
                        contribute to it for fear of the public flogging that often occurs (so much
                        for open community dialogue).  I'll risk that, however, because this is a
                        dear topic to me.

                        The "broken window phenomenon" has been well documented time and again.  The
                        basic story is that if a window is broken and allowed to remain, it may then
                        attract trash, litter and other signs of decay and abandonment.  If these
                        too go unaddressed, it in essence implies that no one cares about this place
                        and the physical chaos could indicate that social chaos will also go
                        unaddressed.

                        Well we know Columbia Heights is not a place where "no one cares."  Neighbor
                        clearly are vigilant in fighting those broken windows and keeping our
                        neighborhood looking lived in and looked after.  But its a never ending
                        battle - particularly with the broken bottles.

                        A bottle bill will work.  I moved here from Michigan - where glass and
                        plastic bottles command a 10 cent deposit and have since the mid-1970's.
                        Not only did the bottle bill markedly clean up our urban areas and roadsides
                        and cut down on the waste going to our landfills, but it was also provided a
                        modest income to those who put the muscle into collecting the bottles -
                        oftentimes young people, students, and the near-homeless.

                        In Michigan we also found the unintended benefit of many unclaimed bottle
                        deposits - people who had bought sodas, etc. and never returned the bottle
                        to claim the deposit.  This added up to literally millions of dollars over
                        time.  For years that unclaimed deposit accrued to the bottlers (Coca-Cola,
                        etc.) until someone wisely pointed out that this money is not the property
                        of the bottlers but rather the state that invoked the legislation.  Those
                        unclaimed deposit funds now go to public education.

                        Certainly the bottle bill will not solve all social ills - after all
                        Michigan claims Detroit and Flint which have both held the title of Murder
                        Capitol, USA at one time or another.  A bottle bill is certainly a small
                        step in the face of the many large issues that loom over this city, but it
                        is a step nonetheless.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        ________________________________________________________________________

                        Message: 2
                           Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:22 -0500
                           From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" <jose.sueiro@...>
                        Subject: RE: Re: Interesting Article

                        Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming.
                        Jose

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@...]
                        Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM
                        To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
                        Cc: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick
                        (EOM)
                        Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article


                        Jose,

                        In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a
                        crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first
                        glance, it all seems to add up.  In order to feed a larger number of people
                        we need to be able to catch large(r) fish.  Large fish love to eat little
                        fish, so using minnows makes goods sense.  Minnows are small, so trying to
                        capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed.
                        Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net.  It all seems to
                        make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes
                        in crab nets are to large to capture minnows.

                        I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between
                        "quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems. But
                        generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that gives us a
                        brand new crab net.  Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work,
                        capture a few minnows with crab net.

                        The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the
                        shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to
                        shooting.  From an objective perspective would you take serious some one
                        talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or gang
                        issues?  While, there is a relationship in the short term the relationship
                        is too tangential.  Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds to the
                        distrust described. If things where that simple we could just transfer a
                        large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems
                        licked in short order.  Waith a second,  that just might work, hmmm.   But,
                        I will take the  "quality of life" approach seriously from government
                        officials when I see the following actions.

                        1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
                        - The mayor moves  his main office into the hot spot.
                        - The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
                        - All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the hot
                        spot.

                        William







                        354 3600
                        Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:


                        Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been
                        informative and fascinating.

                        Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!

                        As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city
                        computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate
                        the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My
                        ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I
                        say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.

                        Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to
                        emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and
                        environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance
                        or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside
                        regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other
                        heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your
                        surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?

                        Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that
                        make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to
                        everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)

                        Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if
                        you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you
                        have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at
                        least 75 to 100 years?

                        My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more
                        disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the
                        plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the
                        shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in
                        mind?


                        Jose Sueiro
                        Neighborhood Services Coordinator
                        Ward 1



                        URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/


                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      • David McIntire
                        Short answer - No - because of opposition from business interests. We have been there, done that. Dave McIntire ... From: Caroline Polk To:
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 4, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Short answer - No - because of opposition from business interests. We have
                          been there, done that.

                          Dave McIntire

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Caroline Polk
                          To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:51 AM
                          Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article


                          Most people I've talked to seem to support a bottle bill. It might help
                          reduce the costs of the recycling program, too. Is there any chance DC could
                          implement such a bill in the near future?
                        • William Jordan
                          Ms. Ricks, The issue is not whether the broken window phenonmenon is of importance, anecdotely most would agree that the phenonmenon is true. The challenge
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 4, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Ms. Ricks,

                            The issue is not whether the "broken window phenonmenon" is of
                            importance, anecdotely most would agree that the phenonmenon is true.
                            The challenge is in implementation both in content and in context. How
                            public and private resources should come together in this type of
                            strategy and where the pay offs will be in the long term and short term.
                            The bottle bill makes good sense as part of a comprehensive approach
                            with good community buy-in in terms of expectations and effort required.
                            I would much rather see an effort at a Columbia Heights BID or BID
                            type entity, than a bottle bill, but the two or other options/efforts
                            are not mutually exclusive.

                            Litter, bottle and the like in CH is being addressed in other ways. The
                            NCHCA sponsors monthly community clean ups. The Monroe Street
                            Association does similar clean ups. Although, these and other efforts do
                            not negate the need for bottle bills and the like, the clean ups have an
                            added side benefit of helping to build relationships between neighbors
                            as well as make a clear public demonstration of the importance of the
                            "broken window phenonmenon" in practice. Secondly it as the side
                            effect of inspiring others to action. Often the challenge for these
                            efforts is good coordination between DPW. My suggestion would be to
                            place focus on our efforts here.

                            In terms of dialogue on this list, your point is well taken. But here
                            are the problems as a I see it. Good community dialogue and exchange
                            is not easy the same applieds to planning, building and maintaining a
                            community. What happens on this list is probably the closest we get to
                            honest and open community dialogue and exchange, most other forums are
                            classic exambles of "passive agress behavior" or "public temper
                            tamtrums, killing constructive community dialogue. My hope is that
                            others will follow your examble of courage because the payoff is worth
                            it although there may be a flogging our two.

                            William





                            Ricks, Karina (OP) wrote:

                            >Jose,
                            >
                            >I watch the Columbia Heights listserve, but (like many I suspect) don't
                            >contribute to it for fear of the public flogging that often occurs (so much
                            >for open community dialogue). I'll risk that, however, because this is a
                            >dear topic to me.
                            >
                            >The "broken window phenomenon" has been well documented time and again. The
                            >basic story is that if a window is broken and allowed to remain, it may then
                            >attract trash, litter and other signs of decay and abandonment. If these
                            >too go unaddressed, it in essence implies that no one cares about this place
                            >and the physical chaos could indicate that social chaos will also go
                            >unaddressed.
                            >
                            >Well we know Columbia Heights is not a place where "no one cares." Neighbor
                            >clearly are vigilant in fighting those broken windows and keeping our
                            >neighborhood looking lived in and looked after. But its a never ending
                            >battle - particularly with the broken bottles.
                            >
                            >A bottle bill will work. I moved here from Michigan - where glass and
                            >plastic bottles command a 10 cent deposit and have since the mid-1970's.
                            >Not only did the bottle bill markedly clean up our urban areas and roadsides
                            >and cut down on the waste going to our landfills, but it was also provided a
                            >modest income to those who put the muscle into collecting the bottles -
                            >oftentimes young people, students, and the near-homeless.
                            >
                            >In Michigan we also found the unintended benefit of many unclaimed bottle
                            >deposits - people who had bought sodas, etc. and never returned the bottle
                            >to claim the deposit. This added up to literally millions of dollars over
                            >time. For years that unclaimed deposit accrued to the bottlers (Coca-Cola,
                            >etc.) until someone wisely pointed out that this money is not the property
                            >of the bottlers but rather the state that invoked the legislation. Those
                            >unclaimed deposit funds now go to public education.
                            >
                            >Certainly the bottle bill will not solve all social ills - after all
                            >Michigan claims Detroit and Flint which have both held the title of Murder
                            >Capitol, USA at one time or another. A bottle bill is certainly a small
                            >step in the face of the many large issues that loom over this city, but it
                            >is a step nonetheless.
                            >
                            >-----Original Message-----
                            >________________________________________________________________________
                            >
                            >Message: 2
                            > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:22 -0500
                            > From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" <jose.sueiro@...>
                            >Subject: RE: Re: Interesting Article
                            >
                            >Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming.
                            >Jose
                            >
                            >-----Original Message-----
                            >From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@...]
                            >Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM
                            >To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
                            >Cc: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick
                            >(EOM)
                            >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                            >
                            >
                            >Jose,
                            >
                            >In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a
                            >crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first
                            >glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a larger number of people
                            >we need to be able to catch large(r) fish. Large fish love to eat little
                            >fish, so using minnows makes goods sense. Minnows are small, so trying to
                            >capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed.
                            >Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net. It all seems to
                            >make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes
                            >in crab nets are to large to capture minnows.
                            >
                            >I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between
                            >"quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems. But
                            >generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that gives us a
                            >brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work,
                            >capture a few minnows with crab net.
                            >
                            >The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the
                            >shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to
                            >shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious some one
                            >talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or gang
                            >issues? While, there is a relationship in the short term the relationship
                            >is too tangential. Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds to the
                            >distrust described. If things where that simple we could just transfer a
                            >large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems
                            >licked in short order. Waith a second, that just might work, hmmm. But,
                            >I will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from government
                            >officials when I see the following actions.
                            >
                            >1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
                            >- The mayor moves his main office into the hot spot.
                            >- The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
                            >- All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the hot
                            >spot.
                            >
                            >William
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >354 3600
                            >Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been
                            >informative and fascinating.
                            >
                            >Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
                            >
                            >As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city
                            >computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate
                            >the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My
                            >ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I
                            >say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.
                            >
                            >Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to
                            >emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and
                            >environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance
                            >or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside
                            >regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other
                            >heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your
                            >surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?
                            >
                            >Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that
                            >make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to
                            >everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)
                            >
                            >Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if
                            >you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you
                            >have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at
                            >least 75 to 100 years?
                            >
                            >My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more
                            >disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the
                            >plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the
                            >shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in
                            >mind?
                            >
                            >
                            >Jose Sueiro
                            >Neighborhood Services Coordinator
                            >Ward 1
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                            >
                            >
                            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Richard Layman
                            Speaking of BIDs, the Charles Village area of Baltimore has a community equivalent of a BID, a CID so to speak. I don t know too much about it. It s on my list
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 4, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Speaking of BIDs, the Charles Village area of Baltimore has a community equivalent of a BID, a CID so to speak.  I don't know too much about it.  It's on my list of things to learn about.

                              However William I will say this, if you want to wait until a "comprehensive" strategy is built and implemented, you and I will long be dead before such a beast is created.  And I'm "only" 42 years old.  I'm not working on a bottle bill, but I see it is a key strategy for developing new behaviors with regard to cleanliness.  After just witnessing the trail remaining after someone peed on my neighbor's house (fortunately for me, while both my neighbor and I front the alley, people tend to prefer to urinate on their house, perhaps because it's on the right...), I say that any and all strategies for helping re-train people are in order in terms of improving community cleanliness.  I can't wait for comprehensive.  Hell, we both know that if we could just increase by 10% the number of people who would pick up trash off their block, that would make a tremendous difference.  And it needs to be done every day, or at least 5 times/week.  Once a month, despite the community capacity building benefits, isn't frequent enough.  Etc.

                              Richard Layman



                              >From: William Jordan
                              >To: "Ricks, Karina (OP)"
                              >CC: "'columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com'"
                              >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                              >Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 12:07:15 -0500
                              >
                              >
                              >Ms. Ricks,
                              >
                              >The issue is not whether the "broken window phenonmenon" is of
                              >importance, anecdotely most would agree that the phenonmenon is true.
                              > The challenge is in implementation both in content and in context. How
                              >public and private resources should come together in this type of
                              >strategy and where the pay offs will be in the long term and short term.
                              > The bottle bill makes good sense as part of a comprehensive approach
                              >with good community buy-in in terms of expectations and effort required.
                              > I would much rather see an effort at a Columbia Heights BID or BID
                              >type entity, than a bottle bill, but the two or other options/efforts
                              >are not mutually exclusive.
                              >
                              >Litter, bottle and the like in CH is being addressed in other ways. The
                              >NCHCA sponsors monthly community clean ups. The Monroe Street
                              >Association does similar clean ups. Although, these and other efforts do
                              >not negate the need for bottle bills and the like, the clean ups have an
                              >added side benefit of helping to build relationships between neighbors
                              >as well as make a clear public demonstration of the importance of the
                              >"broken window phenonmenon" in practice. Secondly it as the side
                              >effect of inspiring others to action. Often the challenge for these
                              >efforts is good coordination between DPW. My suggestion would be to
                              >place focus on our efforts here.
                              >
                              >In terms of dialogue on this list, your point is well taken. But here
                              >are the problems as a I see it. Good community dialogue and exchange
                              >is not easy the same applieds to planning, building and maintaining a
                              >community. What happens on this list is probably the closest we get to
                              >honest and open community dialogue and exchange, most other forums are
                              >classic exambles of "passive agress behavior" or "public temper
                              >tamtrums, killing constructive community dialogue. My hope is that
                              >others will follow your examble of courage because the payoff is worth
                              >it although there may be a flogging our two.
                              >
                              >William
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Ricks, Karina (OP) wrote:
                              >
                              > >Jose,
                              > >
                              > >I watch the Columbia Heights listserve, but (like many I suspect) don't
                              > >contribute to it for fear of the public flogging that often occurs (so much
                              > >for open community dialogue). I'll risk that, however, because this is a
                              > >dear topic to me.
                              > >
                              > >The "broken window phenomenon" has been well documented time and again. The
                              > >basic story is that if a window is broken and allowed to remain, it may then
                              > >attract trash, litter and other signs of decay and abandonment. If these
                              > >too go unaddressed, it in essence implies that no one cares about this place
                              > >and the physical chaos could indicate that social chaos will also go
                              > >unaddressed.
                              > >
                              > >Well we know Columbia Heights is not a place where "no one cares." Neighbor
                              > >clearly are vigilant in fighting those broken windows and keeping our
                              > >neighborhood looking lived in and looked after. But its a never ending
                              > >battle - particularly with the broken bottles.
                              > >
                              > >A bottle bill will work. I moved here from Michigan - where glass and
                              > >plastic bottles command a 10 cent deposit and have since the mid-1970's.
                              > >Not only did the bottle bill markedly clean up our urban areas and roadsides
                              > >and cut down on the waste going to our landfills, but it was also provided a
                              > >modest income to those who put the muscle into collecting the bottles -
                              > >oftentimes young people, students, and the near-homeless.
                              > >
                              > >In Michigan we also found the unintended benefit of many unclaimed bottle
                              > >deposits - people who had bought sodas, etc. and never returned the bottle
                              > >to claim the deposit. This added up to literally millions of dollars over
                              > >time. For years that unclaimed deposit accrued to the bottlers (Coca-Cola,
                              > >etc.) until someone wisely pointed out that this money is not the property
                              > >of the bottlers but rather the state that invoked the legislation. Those
                              > >unclaimed deposit funds now go to public education.
                              > >
                              > >Certainly the bottle bill will not solve all social ills - after all
                              > >Michigan claims Detroit and Flint which have both held the title of Murder
                              > >Capitol, USA at one time or another. A bottle bill is certainly a small
                              > >step in the face of the many large issues that loom over this city, but it
                              > >is a step nonetheless.
                              > >
                              > >-----Original Message-----
                              > >________________________________________________________________________
                              > >
                              > >Message: 2
                              > > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:22 -0500
                              > > From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)"
                              > >Subject: RE: Re: Interesting Article
                              > >
                              > >Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming.
                              > >Jose
                              > >
                              > >-----Original Message-----
                              > >From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@...]
                              > >Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM
                              > >To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM)
                              > >Cc: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick
                              > >(EOM)
                              > >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Jose,
                              > >
                              > >In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a
                              > >crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first
                              > >glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a larger number of people
                              > >we need to be able to catch large(r) fish. Large fish love to eat little
                              > >fish, so using minnows makes goods sense. Minnows are small, so trying to
                              > >capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed.
                              > >Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net. It all seems to
                              > >make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes
                              > >in crab nets are to large to capture minnows.
                              > >
                              > >I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between
                              > >"quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems. But
                              > >generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that gives us a
                              > >brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work,
                              > >capture a few minnows with crab net.
                              > >
                              > >The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the
                              > >shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to
                              > >shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious some one
                              > >talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or gang
                              > >issues? While, there is a relationship in the short term the relationship
                              > >is too tangential. Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds to the
                              > >distrust described. If things where that simple we could just transfer a
                              > >large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems
                              > >licked in short order. Waith a second, that just might work, hmmm. But,
                              > >I will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from government
                              > >officials when I see the following actions.
                              > >
                              > >1. Hot Spot gets decleared.
                              > >- The mayor moves his main office into the hot spot.
                              > >- The council member moves his main office into the hot spot.
                              > >- All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the hot
                              > >spot.
                              > >
                              > >William
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >354 3600
                              > >Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been
                              > >informative and fascinating.
                              > >
                              > >Councilman Graham is, once again, right on!
                              > >
                              > >As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city
                              > >computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate
                              > >the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My
                              > >ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I
                              > >say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts.
                              > >
                              > >Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to
                              > >emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and
                              > >environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance
                              > >or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside
                              > >regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other
                              > >heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your
                              > >surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence?
                              > >
                              > >Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that
                              > >make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to
                              > >everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?)
                              > >
                              > >Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if
                              > >you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you
                              > >have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at
                              > >least 75 to 100 years?
                              > >
                              > >My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more
                              > >disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the
                              > >plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the
                              > >shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in
                              > >mind?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Jose Sueiro
                              > >Neighborhood Services Coordinator
                              > >Ward 1
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >


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                            • William Jordan
                              ... Please share any info you have on this I will look into this also. ... No, we will not be long dead, because the process and effort is occuring as we
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 4, 2002
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                                Richard Layman wrote:

                                Speaking of BIDs, the Charles Village area of Baltimore has a community equivalent of a BID, a CID so to speak.  I don't know too much about it.  It's on my list of things to learn about.

                                Please share any info you have on this I will look into this also.

                                However William I will say this, if you want to wait until a "comprehensive" strategy is built and implemented, you and I will long be dead before such a beast is created.  And I'm "only" 42 years old.  I'm not working on a bottle bill, but I see it is a key strategy for developing new behaviors with regard to cleanliness.  After just witnessing the trail remaining after someone peed on my neighbor's house (fortunately for me, while both my neighbor and I front the alley, people tend to prefer to urinate on their house, perhaps because it's on the right...), I say that any and all strategies for helping re-train people are in order in terms of improving community cleanliness.  I can't wait for comprehensive.  Hell, we both know that if we could just increase by 10% the number of people who would pick up trash off their block, that would make a tremendous difference.  And it needs to be done every day, or at least 5 times/week.  Once a month, despite the community capacity building benefits, isn't frequent enough.  Etc.

                                No, we will not be long dead, because the process and effort is occuring as we speak, but the effort is a life time effort.  I think part of the confusion here is that there is no magic bullet for life and community.  There is no magical piece of legislation, program, study or anything else and that holds true with a bottle bill.  Nor, I am advocating doing nothing while waiting for some magical master plan.  My point has always been, to take a more macro look at things while also pushing for micro and to think through things before jumping on to the next quick fix thing.  And to also get out of this either or approach to problem solving.  

                                Community cleanups nor a bottle bill is "the answer", but from my point of view I believe CH could get more bang for the buck by investing more energy into improving community clean up efforts than a similar investment in passing a bottle bill.  

                                Richard, sometimes in various exchanges on this list CH gets defined by its problems or lackings.  So, what we offend get are suggestions based heavily in terms of problems and other negatives.  What I am suggesting and believe is that CH should also be viewed from the stand point of its strengths, resources and positives.  That in some cases if we got legislations and efforts focused on our strengths many of the negatives would be solved or at least addressed.  

                                William

                                Richard Layman



                                >From: William Jordan >To: "Ricks, Karina (OP)" >CC: "'columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com'" >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 12:07:15 -0500 > > >Ms. Ricks, > >The issue is not whether the "broken window phenonmenon" is of >importance, anecdotely most would agree that the phenonmenon is true. > The challenge is in implementation both in content and in context. How >public and private resources should come together in this type of >strategy and where the pay offs will be in the long term and short term. > The bottle bill makes good sense as part of a comprehensive approach >with good community buy-in in terms of expectations and effort required. > I would much rather see an effort at a Columbia Heights BID or BID >type entity, than a bottle bill, but the two or other options/efforts >are not mutually exclusive. > >Litter, bottle and the like in CH is being addressed in other ways. The >NCHCA sponsors monthly community clean ups. The Monroe Street >Association does similar clean ups. Although, these and other efforts do >not negate the need for bottle bills and the like, the clean ups have an >added side benefit of helping to build relationships between neighbors >as well as make a clear public demonstration of the importance of the >"broken window phenonmenon" in practice. Secondly it as the side >effect of inspiring others to action. Often the challenge for these >efforts is good coordination between DPW. My suggestion would be to >place focus on our efforts here. > >In terms of dialogue on this list, your point is well taken. But here >are the problems as a I see it. Good community dialogue and exchange >is not easy the same applieds to planning, building and maintaining a >community. What happens on this list is probably the closest we get to >honest and open community dialogue and exchange, most other forums are >classic exambles of "passive agress behavior" or "public temper >tamtrums, killing constructive community dialogue. My hope is that >others will follow your examble of courage because the payoff is worth >it although there may be a flogging our two. > >William > > > > > >Ricks, Karina (OP) wrote: > > >Jose, > > > >I watch the Columbia Heights listserve, but (like many I suspect) don't > >contribute to it for fear of the public flogging that often occurs (so much > >for open community dialogue). I'll risk that, however, because this is a > >dear topic to me. > > > >The "broken window phenomenon" has been well documented time and again. The > >basic story is that if a window is broken and allowed to remain, it may then > >attract trash, litter and other signs of decay and abandonment. If these > >too go unaddressed, it in essence implies that no one cares about this place > >and the physical chaos could indicate that social chaos will also go > >unaddressed. > > > >Well we know Columbia Heights is not a place where "no one cares." Neighbor > >clearly are vigilant in fighting those broken windows and keeping our > >neighborhood looking lived in and looked after. But its a never ending > >battle - particularly with the broken bottles. > > > >A bottle bill will work. I moved here from Michigan - where glass and > >plastic bottles command a 10 cent deposit and have since the mid-1970's. > >Not only did the bottle bill markedly clean up our urban areas and roadsides > >and cut down on the waste going to our landfills, but it was also provided a > >modest income to those who put the muscle into collecting the bottles - > >oftentimes young people, students, and the near-homeless. > > > >In Michigan we also found the unintended benefit of many unclaimed bottle > >deposits - people who had bought sodas, etc. and never returned the bottle > >to claim the deposit. This added up to literally millions of dollars over > >time. For years that unclaimed deposit accrued to the bottlers (Coca-Cola, > >etc.) until someone wisely pointed out that this money is not the property > >of the bottlers but rather the state that invoked the legislation. Those > >unclaimed deposit funds now go to public education. > > > >Certainly the bottle bill will not solve all social ills - after all > >Michigan claims Detroit and Flint which have both held the title of Murder > >Capitol, USA at one time or another. A bottle bill is certainly a small > >step in the face of the many large issues that loom over this city, but it > >is a step nonetheless. > > > >-----Original Message----- > >________________________________________________________________________ > > > >Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:22 -0500 > > From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" > >Subject: RE: Re: Interesting Article > > > >Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming. > >Jose > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: William Jordan [mailto:whj@...] > >Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM > >To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM) > >Cc: 'Richard Layman'; columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick > >(EOM) > >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > > > > >Jose, > > > >In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as using a > >crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger fish. At first > >glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a larger number of people > >we need to be able to catch large(r) fish. Large fish love to eat little > >fish, so using minnows makes goods sense. Minnows are small, so trying to > >capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is needed. > >Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net. It all seems to > >make sense and is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes > >in crab nets are to large to capture minnows. > > > >I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection between > >"quality of life" issues and the ability to tackle larger problems. But > >generally, we end up with policies and feel good legislation that gives us a > >brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work, > >capture a few minnows with crab net. > > > >The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses the > >shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to > >shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious some one > >talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about shootings or gang > >issues? While, there is a relationship in the short term the relationship > >is too tangential. Mixing the two in so casual a fashion just adds to the > >distrust described. If things where that simple we could just transfer a > >large portions of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems > >licked in short order. Waith a second, that just might work, hmmm. But, > >I will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from government > >officials when I see the following actions. > > > >1. Hot Spot gets decleared. > >- The mayor moves his main office into the hot spot. > >- The council member moves his main office into the hot spot. > >- All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices in the hot > >spot. > > > >William > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >354 3600 > >Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote: > > > > > >Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on egroup have been > >informative and fascinating. > > > >Councilman Graham is, once again, right on! > > > >As a disclaimer I must say I'm posting this during work hours on a city > >computer. The ideas and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate > >the various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we do. My > >ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be careful with what I > >say and how I say it, but here are some other thoughts. > > > >Why is it that in low and moderate income neighborhoods attempts to > >emphasize 'quality of life' issues and in particular litter and > >environmental responsibility are viewed as burdens of secondary importance > >or in the extreme some sort of government imposed, repressive, outside > >regulation. Of course crime, our schools, police/community relations, other > >heavier topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your > >surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and independence? > > > >Said differently, how can environmental initiatives be crafted in ways that > >make them part of the fabric of a working class communiity, attractive to > >everyone? (and isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?) > > > >Then another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, if > >you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in the D. of C. you > >have to certify that they are biodegradable and will disintegrate in at > >least 75 to 100 years? > > > >My family is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more > >disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out on all the > >plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) that wash up on the > >shore. Are any of these products made with 'biodegradability', (sic.) in > >mind? > > > > > >Jose Sueiro > >Neighborhood Services Coordinator > >Ward 1 > > > > > > > >URL to this page on the web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > >


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                              • Richard Layman
                                I really recommend William Whyte s book. It ll help you start thinking about ways to tinker with the spaces, and potential public spaces in your neighborhood
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 4, 2002
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                                  I really recommend William Whyte's book.  It'll help you start thinking about ways to tinker with the spaces, and potential public spaces in your neighborhood (which aren't necessarily green parks)  but note check out the #4 in the "outstanding architecture" at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2373841.stm for a great looking urban space in the UK. 

                                  There are no easy solutions.  We have the same problem in the H Street neighborhood, especially on H Street, although I still don't think that is an excuse for public drinking or urinating in alleys, but that's another story.

                                  Richard Layman

                                  >From: William Jordan
                                  >To: Richard Layman
                                  >CC: jose.sueiro@..., columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, Patrick.Canavan@...
                                  >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                                  >Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 23:09:05 -0500
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >One of Columbia Height's biggest problems is a lack of usable
                                  >public spaces and spaces of public accommodations. This especially
                                  >compounded by the fact that culturally many persons living in CH
                                  >tend toward public gatherings. Verbal personal interaction is very
                                  >important. Without decent well designed parks, resturants, side
                                  >walk cafes, social clubs, informal your gather spots we compound
                                  >our problems. One of the unfortunate problems with the residential
                                  >development scheduled for CH parcels is that we will be adding
                                  >people to an already dense area without any planning for good public
                                  >spaces. Basically, people drank publicly the way they do becuase
                                  >there are not alternatives. Although some people need treatment for
                                  >dranking problems, we still need places for acceptable public
                                  >dranking. In other areas of the city side walk cafes serve this
                                  >purpose as long with bars, clubs and resturants. With basically a
                                  >clean development slate, we should be able to address these and
                                  >other issues. But unfortunately, we have been busy majoring in
                                  >minors.
                                  >
                                  >I supported the previous attempt at a bottle bill mainly becuase I
                                  >felt it would help reduce the amount of broken glass. Broken glass
                                  >basically kills the use of pubilc spaces for young children. I also
                                  >spoke with many of the small neighborhood business at the time and
                                  >they tended to oppose the bill. Primarily because logicistically,
                                  >the city would be dumbing the burden of the bill on their backs.
                                  >Many, of these business don't have the space or man power to handle
                                  >bottle processing. Considering, how difficult it was for the city to
                                  >get recycling straight, I can understand their concern with how the
                                  >details of a bottle bill would work.
                                  >
                                  >Again, most of the basic ideas for things like the bottle bill are
                                  >good. But we have a City Council who is trigger happy in passing
                                  >poorly thought through feel good legislation seeking to score easy
                                  >points with residents, while rolling over and failing to protect
                                  >citizens from the whims, pet projects of congress, thinkthanks,
                                  >consultants, big developers and down town interest. Or the behavoirs
                                  >of real criminals and thugs, they want us to believe that real crime
                                  >fighting is moving some drunks along and holding press conferences.
                                  >It just amazes me that Alice Rivlin, who we did not elect to
                                  >anything, has more influence on neighborhood development and
                                  >planning policies than our elected officials. I am really pretty
                                  >sick of DC basing it policies on a white paper or study some
                                  >thinktank guru wrote. I am one who thinks it's important for the
                                  >city to have a balanced budget, but a balance budget should not
                                  >drive the policies and priorities of this city. The needs, wants
                                  >and visions of its residents should. Unfortunately, we don't have
                                  >many elected officials with that kind of guts.
                                  >
                                  >William
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >Richard Layman wrote:
                                  >
                                  >>In revitalization, it's necessary to address a wide variety of
                                  >>issues simultaneously and comprehensively. Cleanliness is
                                  >>incredibly important, as it is one of the most significant
                                  >>influences on perceptions.
                                  >>
                                  >>Regardless, William Whyte in _City: Rediscovering the Center_ makes
                                  >>the following point:
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>"The biggest single obstacle to the provision of better spaces
                                  >>is the undesirables problem. They are themselves not too
                                  >>much of a problem. It is the actions taken to combat
                                  >>them that is the problem....the best way to handle the
                                  >>problem of undesirables is to make a place attractive to
                                  >>everyone else."
                                  >>
                                  >>When more people are on the street, shopping, eating, going to and
                                  >>from entertainments, etc., the people who conduct less desirable
                                  >>behaviors, from drug sales and/or use to urination, not to mention
                                  >>unsightly drunkenness will be "crowded" out by more positive
                                  >>behavior. They'll feel less comfortable. They may not change
                                  >>their behavior, but they probably will move on.
                                  >>
                                  >>Bottle bills help in cleanliness as well as environmentally. As I
                                  >>said, coming from Michigan, it still floors me at times how
                                  >>uncleanly the city is -- and a big part of this is that people feel
                                  >>no sense of ownership of the streetspace, which is why they have no
                                  >>problem in throwing anything anywhere. It has nothing to do with
                                  >>the presence or lack thereof of trashcans. There is a trash can
                                  >>immediately in front of a bus stop on my block (3 feet or less from
                                  >>the shelter) and the bus shelter is frequently trashed up. Etc.
                                  >>
                                  >>Shootings are a whole other issue. The fact that 80%+ of murders
                                  >>involve people that know each other (the recent sniper incidents
                                  >>notwithstanding) means that addressing this requires intelligence
                                  >>and the proper focus. But that would be the subject of another
                                  >>email.
                                  >>
                                  >>Inaction is hardly a course I'd recommend. And I hardly think a
                                  >>bottle bill is the most important piece of a neighborhood
                                  >>revitalization effort. But considering the general disgusting
                                  >>nature of DC's streets, compared to states that have such
                                  >>legislation, a thinking person ought to be interested in figuring
                                  >>out why there is a difference.
                                  >>
                                  >>Richard Layman
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> >From: William Jordan >To: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >CC: "'Richard
                                  >>Layman'" , columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "Canavan, Patrick
                                  >>(EOM)" >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                                  >> >Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 17:25:41 -0500 > > Jose, > >In some
                                  >>respects, I view this and other exchanges on this list as >using a
                                  >>crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to capture larger >fish.
                                  >>At first glance, it all seems to add up. In order to feed a >larger
                                  >>number of people we need to be able to catch large(r) fish. >Large
                                  >>fish love to eat little fish, so using minnows makes goods >sense.
                                  >>Minnows are small, so trying to capture them with a hook >makes
                                  >>little sense, so clearly a net is needed. Crab nets are easy >to
                                  >>find and cheap so we have our net. It all seems to make sense and
                                  >> >is a good plan, but the people starve. Why, because the holes in
                                  >> >crab nets are to large to capture minnows. > >I support in theory
                                  >>a 'bottle bill'. I support the connection >between "quality of
                                  >>life" issues and the ability to tackle larger >problems. But
                                  >>generally, we end up with policies and feel good >legislation that
                                  >>gives us a brand new crab net. Don't get me wrong >you can,
                                  >>actually with some work, capture a few minnows with crab >net. >
                                  >> >The "bottle bill' is a good idea, but offers little in addresses
                                  >>the >shooting that occurred or the personal and social issues that
                                  >>led up >to shooting. From an objective perspective would you take
                                  >>serious >some one talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried
                                  >>about >shootings or gang issues? While, there is a relationship in
                                  >>the >short term the relationship is too tangential. Mixing the two
                                  >>in so >casual a fashion just adds to the distrust described. If
                                  >>things >where that simple we could just transfer a large portions
                                  >>of >criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems
                                  >>licked in >short order. Waith a second, that just might work, hmmm.
                                  >>But, I >will take the "quality of life" approach seriously from
                                  >>government >officials when I see the following actions. > >1. Hot
                                  >>Spot gets decleared. >- The mayor moves his main office into the
                                  >>hot spot. >- The council member moves his main office into the hot
                                  >>spot. >- All major procument contracts have to be signed at offices
                                  >>in the >hot spot. > >William > > > > > > > >354 3600 >Sueiro, Jose
                                  >>(EOM) wrote: > >>Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill
                                  >>topic on egroup >>have been informative and fascinating. >>
                                  >>Councilman Graham is, once again, right on! >> As a disclaimer I
                                  >>must say I'm posting this during work hours on >>a city computer.
                                  >>The ideas and issues about how to abate, >>ameliorate or eliminate
                                  >>the various trash problems we face is very >>definitely part of
                                  >>what we do. My ideas are sometimes 'free form', >>so I will try and
                                  >>be careful with what I say and how I say it, but >>here are some
                                  >>other thoughts. >> Why is it that in low and moderate income
                                  >>neighborhoods attempts >>to emphasize 'quality of life' issues and
                                  >>in particular litter and >>environmental responsibility are viewed
                                  >>as burdens of secondary >>importance or in the extreme some sort of
                                  >>government imposed, >>repressive, outside regulation. Of course
                                  >>crime, our schools, >>police/community relations, other heavier
                                  >>topics are of greater >>concern, but isn't feeling good about your
                                  >>surroundings the first >>step in creating pride, self esteem and
                                  >>independence? >> Said differently, how can environmental
                                  >>initiatives be crafted in >>ways that make them part of the fabric
                                  >>of a working class >>communiity, attractive to everyone? (and isn't
                                  >>this what the Greens >>should be thinking about?) >> Then another,
                                  >>very different concern. What if we made it a rule >>(a law, if you
                                  >>will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers >>in the D. of
                                  >>C. you have to certify that they are biodegradable and >>will
                                  >>disintegrate in at least 75 to 100 years? >> My family is from the
                                  >>northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing >>more disheartening
                                  >>than standing on a wild shoreline and looking >>out on all the
                                  >>plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) >>that wash up
                                  >>on the shore. Are any of these products made with
                                  >> >>'biodegradability', (sic.) in mind? >> Jose Sueiro
                                  >> >>Neighborhood Services Corrdinator >>Ward 1 >> >> -----Original
                                  >>Message----- >> From: Richard Layman [mailto:rllayman@...]
                                  >> >> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:52 AM >> To:
                                  >>columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: RE: [columbia_heights]
                                  >>Re: Interesting Article >> >> The DC Environmental Network (contact
                                  >>Chris Weiss at Friends >>of >> the Earth cweiss@... ) had a >>
                                  >>presentation on a "national bottle bill" this past summer. >>Part
                                  >> >> of the reason for working at that level is that the soda and
                                  >> >>beer >> companies that fight the local laws so diligently say
                                  >>"we want >> just one law to have to adhere to." But part of the
                                  >> >>discussion >> was on local laws and what happened in DC. >> >>
                                  >>Being from Michigan, which has the highest deposit (10 >>
                                  >>cents/bottle) and therefore over 90% of bottles and cans are >>
                                  >>recycled, which is far and away the most successful rate in >>the
                                  >> >> U.S., I was shocked to see the virulence and race baiting of
                                  >> >>the >> anti-bottle bill people back in 1988 back when I first
                                  >>moved >> here. (That's another reason I would never support Willie
                                  >> >>Wilson >> as he was a key anti-bottle bill person because the
                                  >>industry >> rounded up the black clergy to make the arguments about
                                  >>the >> difficulties such a bill would impose on various segments of
                                  >> >>the >> population.) >> >> As a result, we live in a dirty, mean
                                  >>looking city. NYC is >>way >> cleaner by comparison. And I am not
                                  >>knocking DPW. At least >>on H >> Street NE, the City expends a lot
                                  >>of resources in daily >>cleaning >> of the corridor -- at least on
                                  >>the street -- but the sidewalks >>and >> treeboxes collect all
                                  >>kinds of bottles and cans. >> >> Living in a neighborhood which is
                                  >>over-stored for alcoholic >> beverage sales, and living in a
                                  >>semi-detached house, and just >>a >> few doors down from H Street I
                                  >>deal with this all the time. I >> testified on alcoholic beverage
                                  >>license issues at the City >>Council >> in April. Before going I
                                  >>ran around a couple blocks in my >> neighborhood and collected two
                                  >>milk crates brimming with >>bottles. I attempted to bring them in
                                  >>as part of my testimony >>but I almost >> got arrested because I
                                  >>was insistent at the entrance. They >> claimed I could use them as
                                  >>weapons. I had over 75 items from >>a >> few minutes of collecting
                                  >>within a few hundred feet of my >>house. I wasn't able to display
                                  >>this evidence as part of my >>testimony. >> >> This mess is one of
                                  >>the ways in which our local neighborhood >> commercial districts
                                  >>can't compete with suburban shopping >> options. Who wants to come
                                  >>to a street that is trashy and >>full of >> drunks besides? >> >>
                                  >>Bring on the bottle bill. >> >> Richard Layman >> >> >From:
                                  >>"Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" >To: >>columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >>
                                  >> >CC: "Jones, Tara (EOM)" >Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: >>
                                  >>Interesting Article >Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 15:55:34 -0500 > >>
                                  >> >I'm >> very interested in the so called "bottle bill". Do not
                                  >>think >>it >> has been >'shot down every year', in fact think it
                                  >>has been a >>good >> dozen years or so >since anyone has brought it
                                  >>up. > >Know >>this, >> because inside D.C. Gov. the mere mention of
                                  >>a 'bottle bill' >>is >> >enough to get everyone's eyes rolling to
                                  >>the back of their >>heads. >> > >Wonder if there isn't a general
                                  >>consensus in the community >> around a bottle >bill. The last time
                                  >>this came up I ran a >> newspaper and was paid handsomely >(in
                                  >>advertising) to oppose >>the >> bill. > >Now, working with the
                                  >>'solid waste stream' every day, >>and >> as a resident of >the
                                  >>city, believe a bottle bill has a great >>many >> advantages and
                                  >>makes a lot >of sense. > >The attempt to create >>a >> bottle bill
                                  >>is poison not only to politicians but to >> >distributers >> and
                                  >>the corporations that back them. > >Wonder if this is >> something
                                  >>the CH egroup has opinions on (it certainly >impacts >> CH)! >
                                  >> >Jose Sueiro >Neighborhood Service Coordinator >Ward 1 >> > >>
                                  >> >-----Original Message----- >From: ajstribling >>
                                  >>[mailto:ajstribling@...] >Sent: Wednesday, October 30, >>2002
                                  >> >> 1:26 PM >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >Subject: >>
                                  >>[columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > >You wouldn't >>need
                                  >> >> to enforce open container laws if you didn't have >the open >>
                                  >>container there in the first place. Unfortunately, the last >>
                                  >> >time >> someone tried limiting the sales of singles, he got
                                  >>accused >> >of >> "extremist voting." So long as using alleys as
                                  >>public toilets >>is >> >considered an acceptable lifestyle choice,
                                  >>look forward to a >> >continuation of this situation. > >And you
                                  >>could get rid of >>the >> empty bottles by passing a nickel
                                  >> >deposit bottle bill, but >>that >> one gets shot down every year,
                                  >>courtesy >the beverage industry >>and >> its lobbyists. > >--- In
                                  >>columbia_heights@y..., "Cory Chimka" >> wrote: > > I know it is not
                                  >>really the point of the >> article...but...I think if >it was > >
                                  >>not acceptable to get >> wasted in parking lots, in front of
                                  >>stores, >on > > corners, >>in >> parks, etc in our neighborhood,
                                  >>alot of the violent >crime >>here > >> > would never take place.
                                  >>Why aren't open container and public >> >drunkeness > > laws
                                  >>enforced? > > > > >>
                                  >> >>_________________________________________________________________
                                  >> >> > > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > > >>
                                  >>http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > >> >
                                  >> >> >URL to this page on the web: >>
                                  >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > >Your use >>of
                                  >> >> Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >> >> > >> >>
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                                  >> >> Here >> URL to this page on the web: >>
                                  >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ >> >> >> Your use
                                  >>of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of >> Service . >>
                                  >> >> >>URL to this page on the web:
                                  >> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ >> >> >>Your use
                                  >>of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service >>. > >
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                                • blackcaesar20010
                                  Also, restaurants which sell alcohol to be consumed inside should at a minimum provide at least one restroom for it s patrons. How z the old saying go: You
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 5, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Also, restaurants which sell alcohol to be consumed
                                    inside should at a minimum provide at least one
                                    restroom for it's patrons. How'z the old saying
                                    go: "You really don't buy beer, you just rent it!"

                                    However, the ANC was split in it's support of an ABC license
                                    application that would have opened the door for a carryout
                                    establishment that does not have patron restrooms. Obviously,
                                    some issues take precedence over the idea of our nearby stakeholders
                                    having to put up the stentch of urine everytime they go outside.

                                    Don't ask me why.. I voted against it. If you don't belive me,
                                    visit Susannah's near the corner of 14th & Spring Roads NW.
                                    Tell them you've gotta go real bad!

                                    Until we insist that all our residents and businesses are
                                    accountable to our community without exception to race,
                                    economics, or tenure, things like public drunkeness, urination,
                                    and the like will remain lower priority.

                                    Sometimes, political correctness is just a synonym for denial.

                                    John
                                  • Richard Layman
                                    William, I was fiddling around looking for this and found info on the two community benef9its districts in Baltimore at www.charlesvillage.org and
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 27, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      William,

                                      I was fiddling around looking for this and found info on the two "community benef9its districts" in Baltimore at www.charlesvillage.org and www.midtowncommunity.org .  Good luck.

                                      Richard Layman

                                      >From: William Jordan
                                      >To: Richard Layman
                                      >CC: karina.ricks@..., columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                                      >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article
                                      >Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:00:45 -0500
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >Richard Layman wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>Speaking of BIDs, the Charles Village area of Baltimore has a
                                      >>community equivalent of a BID, a CID so to speak. I don't know too
                                      >>much about it. It's on my list of things to learn about.
                                      >>
                                      >Please share any info you have on this I will look into this also.
                                      >
                                      >>However William I will say this, if you want to wait until a
                                      >>"comprehensive" strategy is built and implemented, you and I will
                                      >>long be dead before such a beast is created. And I'm "only" 42
                                      >>years old. I'm not working on a bottle bill, but I see it is a key
                                      >>strategy for developing new behaviors with regard to cleanliness.
                                      >>After just witnessing the trail remaining after someone peed on my
                                      >>neighbor's house (fortunately for me, while both my neighbor and I
                                      >>front the alley, people tend to prefer to urinate on their house,
                                      >>perhaps because it's on the right...), I say that any and all
                                      >>strategies for helping re-train people are in order in terms of
                                      >>improving community cleanliness. I can't wait for comprehensive.
                                      >>Hell, we both know that if we could just increase by 10% the number
                                      >>of people who would pick up trash off their block, that would make
                                      >>a tremendous difference. And it needs to be done every day, or at
                                      >>least 5 times/week. Once a month, despite the community capacity
                                      >>building benefits, isn't frequent enough. Etc.
                                      >>
                                      >No, we will not be long dead, because the process and effort is
                                      >occuring as we speak, but the effort is a life time effort. I think
                                      >part of the confusion here is that there is no magic bullet for life
                                      >and community. There is no magical piece of legislation, program,
                                      >study or anything else and that holds true with a bottle bill. Nor,
                                      >I am advocating doing nothing while waiting for some magical master
                                      >plan. My point has always been, to take a more macro look at things
                                      >while also pushing for micro and to think through things before
                                      >jumping on to the next quick fix thing. And to also get out of this
                                      >either or approach to problem solving.
                                      >
                                      >Community cleanups nor a bottle bill is "the answer", but from my
                                      >point of view I believe CH could get more bang for the buck by
                                      >investing more energy into improving community clean up efforts than
                                      >a similar investment in passing a bottle bill.
                                      >
                                      >Richard, sometimes in various exchanges on this list CH gets defined
                                      >by its problems or lackings. So, what we offend get are suggestions
                                      >based heavily in terms of problems and other negatives. What I am
                                      >suggesting and believe is that CH should also be viewed from the
                                      >stand point of its strengths, resources and positives. That in some
                                      >cases if we got legislations and efforts focused on our strengths
                                      >many of the negatives would be solved or at least addressed.
                                      >
                                      >William
                                      >
                                      >>Richard Layman
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> >From: William Jordan >To: "Ricks, Karina (OP)" >CC:
                                      >>"'columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com'" >Subject: Re:
                                      >>[columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002
                                      >>12:07:15 -0500 > > >Ms. Ricks, > >The issue is not whether the
                                      >>"broken window phenonmenon" is of >importance, anecdotely most
                                      >>would agree that the phenonmenon is true. > The challenge is in
                                      >>implementation both in content and in context. How >public and
                                      >>private resources should come together in this type of >strategy
                                      >>and where the pay offs will be in the long term and short term. >
                                      >>The bottle bill makes good sense as part of a comprehensive
                                      >>approach >with good community buy-in in terms of expectations and
                                      >>effort required. > I would much rather see an effort at a Columbia
                                      >>Heights BID or BID >type entity, than a bottle bill, but the two or
                                      >>other options/efforts >are not mutually exclusive. > >Litter,
                                      >>bottle and the like in CH is being addressed in other ways. The
                                      >> >NCHCA sponsors monthly community clean ups. The Monroe Street
                                      >> >Association does similar clean ups. Although, these and other
                                      >>efforts do >not negate the need for bottle bills and the like, the
                                      >>clean ups have an >added side benefit of helping to build
                                      >>relationships between neighbors >as well as make a clear public
                                      >>demonstration of the importance of the >"broken window phenonmenon"
                                      >>in practice. Secondly it as the side >effect of inspiring others to
                                      >>action. Often the challenge for these >efforts is good coordination
                                      >>between DPW. My suggestion would be to >place focus on our efforts
                                      >>here. > >In terms of dialogue on this list, your point is well
                                      >>taken. But here >are the problems as a I see it. Good community
                                      >>dialogue and exchange >is not easy the same applieds to planning,
                                      >>building and maintaining a >community. What happens on this list is
                                      >>probably the closest we get to >honest and open community dialogue
                                      >>and exchange, most other forums are >classic exambles of "passive
                                      >>agress behavior" or "public temper >tamtrums, killing constructive
                                      >>community dialogue. My hope is that >others will follow your
                                      >>examble of courage because the payoff is worth >it although there
                                      >>may be a flogging our two. > >William > > > > > >Ricks, Karina (OP)
                                      >>wrote: > > >Jose, > > > >I watch the Columbia Heights listserve,
                                      >>but (like many I suspect) don't > >contribute to it for fear of the
                                      >>public flogging that often occurs (so much > >for open community
                                      >>dialogue). I'll risk that, however, because this is a > >dear topic
                                      >>to me. > > > >The "broken window phenomenon" has been well
                                      >>documented time and again. The > >basic story is that if a window
                                      >>is broken and allowed to remain, it may then > >attract trash,
                                      >>litter and other signs of decay and abandonment. If these > >too go
                                      >>unaddressed, it in essence implies that no one cares about this
                                      >>place > >and the physical chaos could indicate that social chaos
                                      >>will also go > >unaddressed. > > > >Well we know Columbia Heights
                                      >>is not a place where "no one cares." Neighbor > >clearly are
                                      >>vigilant in fighting those broken windows and keeping our >
                                      >> >neighborhood looking lived in and looked after. But its a never
                                      >>ending > >battle - particularly with the broken bottles. > > > >A
                                      >>bottle bill will work. I moved here from Michigan - where glass and
                                      >> > >plastic bottles command a 10 cent deposit and have since the
                                      >>mid-1970's. > >Not only did the bottle bill markedly clean up our
                                      >>urban areas and roadsides > >and cut down on the waste going to our
                                      >>landfills, but it was also provided a > >modest income to those who
                                      >>put the muscle into collecting the bottles - > >oftentimes young
                                      >>people, students, and the near-homeless. > > > >In Michigan we also
                                      >>found the unintended benefit of many unclaimed bottle > >deposits -
                                      >>people who had bought sodas, etc. and never returned the bottle >
                                      >> >to claim the deposit. This added up to literally millions of
                                      >>dollars over > >time. For years that unclaimed deposit accrued to
                                      >>the bottlers (Coca-Cola, > >etc.) until someone wisely pointed out
                                      >>that this money is not the property > >of the bottlers but rather
                                      >>the state that invoked the legislation. Those > >unclaimed deposit
                                      >>funds now go to public education. > > > >Certainly the bottle bill
                                      >>will not solve all social ills - after all > >Michigan claims
                                      >>Detroit and Flint which have both held the title of Murder >
                                      >> >Capitol, USA at one time or another. A bottle bill is certainly a
                                      >>small > >step in the face of the many large issues that loom over
                                      >>this city, but it > >is a step nonetheless. > > > >-----Original
                                      >>Message----- >
                                      >> >________________________________________________________________________
                                      >> > > > >Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:22 -0500 > >
                                      >>From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" > >Subject: RE: Re: Interesting Article
                                      >> > > > >Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming. > >Jose > > >
                                      >> >-----Original Message----- > >From: William Jordan
                                      >>[mailto:whj@...] > >Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM
                                      >> > >To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM) > >Cc: 'Richard Layman';
                                      >>columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick > >(EOM) >
                                      >> >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > > > >
                                      >> >Jose, > > > >In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on
                                      >>this list as using a > >crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to
                                      >>capture larger fish. At first > >glance, it all seems to add up. In
                                      >>order to feed a larger number of people > >we need to be able to
                                      >>catch large(r) fish. Large fish love to eat little > >fish, so
                                      >>using minnows makes goods sense. Minnows are small, so trying to >
                                      >> >capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is
                                      >>needed. > >Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net.
                                      >>It all seems to > >make sense and is a good plan, but the people
                                      >>starve. Why, because the holes > >in crab nets are to large to
                                      >>capture minnows. > > > >I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I
                                      >>support the connection between > >"quality of life" issues and the
                                      >>ability to tackle larger problems. But > >generally, we end up with
                                      >>policies and feel good legislation that gives us a > >brand new
                                      >>crab net. Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work, >
                                      >> >capture a few minnows with crab net. > > > >The "bottle bill' is
                                      >>a good idea, but offers little in addresses the > >shooting that
                                      >>occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to >
                                      >> >shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious
                                      >>some one > >talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about
                                      >>shootings or gang > >issues? While, there is a relationship in the
                                      >>short term the relationship > >is too tangential. Mixing the two in
                                      >>so casual a fashion just adds to the > >distrust described. If
                                      >>things where that simple we could just transfer a > >large portions
                                      >>of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems >
                                      >> >licked in short order. Waith a second, that just might work,
                                      >>hmmm. But, > >I will take the "quality of life" approach seriously
                                      >>from government > >officials when I see the following actions. > >
                                      >> > >1. Hot Spot gets decleared. > >- The mayor moves his main
                                      >>office into the hot spot. > >- The council member moves his main
                                      >>office into the hot spot. > >- All major procument contracts have
                                      >>to be signed at offices in the hot > >spot. > > > >William > > > >
                                      >> > > > > > > > > > > > >354 3600 > >Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote: > > >
                                      >> > > >Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on
                                      >>egroup have been > >informative and fascinating. > > > >Councilman
                                      >>Graham is, once again, right on! > > > >As a disclaimer I must say
                                      >>I'm posting this during work hours on a city > >computer. The ideas
                                      >>and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate > >the
                                      >>various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we
                                      >>do. My > >ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be
                                      >>careful with what I > >say and how I say it, but here are some
                                      >>other thoughts. > > > >Why is it that in low and moderate income
                                      >>neighborhoods attempts to > >emphasize 'quality of life' issues and
                                      >>in particular litter and > >environmental responsibility are viewed
                                      >>as burdens of secondary importance > >or in the extreme some sort
                                      >>of government imposed, repressive, outside > >regulation. Of course
                                      >>crime, our schools, police/community relations, other > >heavier
                                      >>topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your >
                                      >> >surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and
                                      >>independence? > > > >Said differently, how can environmental
                                      >>initiatives be crafted in ways that > >make them part of the fabric
                                      >>of a working class communiity, attractive to > >everyone? (and
                                      >>isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?) > > > >Then
                                      >>another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law,
                                      >>if > >you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in
                                      >>the D. of C. you > >have to certify that they are biodegradable and
                                      >>will disintegrate in at > >least 75 to 100 years? > > > >My family
                                      >>is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more >
                                      >> >disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out
                                      >>on all the > >plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever)
                                      >>that wash up on the > >shore. Are any of these products made with
                                      >>'biodegradability', (sic.) in > >mind? > > > > > >Jose Sueiro >
                                      >> >Neighborhood Services Coordinator > >Ward 1 > > > > > > > >URL to
                                      >>this page on the web:
                                      >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > > > > >Your use
                                      >>of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >
                                      >> > > > > > > > > > > >
                                      >>
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                                    • William Jordan
                                      Richard, Thanks, I read thru DC s BID law and it seems that it could be morphed to create BIDs at have the features of community benefits districts . At
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 29, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Richard,

                                        Thanks,  I read thru DC's BID law and it seems that it could be morphed to create BIDs at have the features of "community benefits districts".  At first glance, it seems CH would be perfect for  this type of approach. Especially, because this approach would place more energy into community cooperation (win-win) vs. peicemeal legislation that tends to pit one group against another.

                                        The biggest challenge I see is convincing people that they need to pay an add on tax, and that  the payoff would be worth it.


                                        William

                                        Richard Layman wrote:

                                        William,

                                        I was fiddling around looking for this and found info on the two "community benef9its districts" in Baltimore at www.charlesvillage.org and www.midtowncommunity.org .  Good luck.

                                        Richard Layman

                                        >From: William Jordan >To: Richard Layman >CC: karina.ricks@..., columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:00:45 -0500 > > > >Richard Layman wrote: > >>Speaking of BIDs, the Charles Village area of Baltimore has a >>community equivalent of a BID, a CID so to speak. I don't know too >>much about it. It's on my list of things to learn about. >> >Please share any info you have on this I will look into this also. > >>However William I will say this, if you want to wait until a >>"comprehensive" strategy is built and implemented, you and I will >>long be dead before such a beast is created. And I'm "only" 42 >>years old. I'm not working on a bottle bill, but I see it is a key >>strategy for developing new behaviors with regard to cleanliness. >>After just witnessing the trail remaining after someone peed on my >>neighbor's house (fortunately for me, while both my neighbor and I >>front the alley, people tend to prefer to urinate on their house, >>perhaps because it's on the right...), I say that any and all >>strategies for helping re-train people are in order in terms of >>improving community cleanliness. I can't wait for comprehensive. >>Hell, we both know that if we could just increase by 10% the number >>of people who would pick up trash off their block, that would make >>a tremendous difference. And it needs to be done every day, or at >>least 5 times/week. Once a month, despite the community capacity >>building benefits, isn't frequent enough. Etc. >> >No, we will not be long dead, because the process and effort is >occuring as we speak, but the effort is a life time effort. I think >part of the confusion here is that there is no magic bullet for life >and community. There is no magical piece of legislation, program, >study or anything else and that holds true with a bottle bill. Nor, >I am advocating doing nothing while waiting for some magical master >plan. My point has always been, to take a more macro look at things >while also pushing for micro and to think through things before >jumping on to the next quick fix thing. And to also get out of this >either or approach to problem solving. > >Community cleanups nor a bottle bill is "the answer", but from my >point of view I believe CH could get more bang for the buck by >investing more energy into improving community clean up efforts than >a similar investment in passing a bottle bill. > >Richard, sometimes in various exchanges on this list CH gets defined >by its problems or lackings. So, what we offend get are suggestions >based heavily in terms of problems and other negatives. What I am >suggesting and believe is that CH should also be viewed from the >stand point of its strengths, resources and positives. That in some >cases if we got legislations and efforts focused on our strengths >many of the negatives would be solved or at least addressed. > >William > >>Richard Layman >> >> >> >> >From: William Jordan >To: "Ricks, Karina (OP)" >CC: >>"'columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com'" >Subject: Re: >>[columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article >Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 >>12:07:15 -0500 > > >Ms. Ricks, > >The issue is not whether the >>"broken window phenonmenon" is of >importance, anecdotely most >>would agree that the phenonmenon is true. > The challenge is in >>implementation both in content and in context. How >public and >>private resources should come together in this type of >strategy >>and where the pay offs will be in the long term and short term. > >>The bottle bill makes good sense as part of a comprehensive >>approach >with good community buy-in in terms of expectations and >>effort required. > I would much rather see an effort at a Columbia >>Heights BID or BID >type entity, than a bottle bill, but the two or >>other options/efforts >are not mutually exclusive. > >Litter, >>bottle and the like in CH is being addressed in other ways. The >> >NCHCA sponsors monthly community clean ups. The Monroe Street >> >Association does similar clean ups. Although, these and other >>efforts do >not negate the need for bottle bills and the like, the >>clean ups have an >added side benefit of helping to build >>relationships between neighbors >as well as make a clear public >>demonstration of the importance of the >"broken window phenonmenon" >>in practice. Secondly it as the side >effect of inspiring others to >>action. Often the challenge for these >efforts is good coordination >>between DPW. My suggestion would be to >place focus on our efforts >>here. > >In terms of dialogue on this list, your point is well >>taken. But here >are the problems as a I see it. Good community >>dialogue and exchange >is not easy the same applieds to planning, >>building and maintaining a >community. What happens on this list is >>probably the closest we get to >honest and open community dialogue >>and exchange, most other forums are >classic exambles of "passive >>agress behavior" or "public temper >tamtrums, killing constructive >>community dialogue. My hope is that >others will follow your >>examble of courage because the payoff is worth >it although there >>may be a flogging our two. > >William > > > > > >Ricks, Karina (OP) >>wrote: > > >Jose, > > > >I watch the Columbia Heights listserve, >>but (like many I suspect) don't > >contribute to it for fear of the >>public flogging that often occurs (so much > >for open community >>dialogue). I'll risk that, however, because this is a > >dear topic >>to me. > > > >The "broken window phenomenon" has been well >>documented time and again. The > >basic story is that if a window >>is broken and allowed to remain, it may then > >attract trash, >>litter and other signs of decay and abandonment. If these > >too go >>unaddressed, it in essence implies that no one cares about this >>place > >and the physical chaos could indicate that social chaos >>will also go > >unaddressed. > > > >Well we know Columbia Heights >>is not a place where "no one cares." Neighbor > >clearly are >>vigilant in fighting those broken windows and keeping our > >> >neighborhood looking lived in and looked after. But its a never >>ending > >battle - particularly with the broken bottles. > > > >A >>bottle bill will work. I moved here from Michigan - where glass and >> > >plastic bottles command a 10 cent deposit and have since the >>mid-1970's. > >Not only did the bottle bill markedly clean up our >>urban areas and roadsides > >and cut down on the waste going to our >>landfills, but it was also provided a > >modest income to those who >>put the muscle into collecting the bottles - > >oftentimes young >>people, students, and the near-homeless. > > > >In Michigan we also >>found the unintended benefit of many unclaimed bottle > >deposits - >>people who had bought sodas, etc. and never returned the bottle > >> >to claim the deposit. This added up to literally millions of >>dollars over > >time. For years that unclaimed deposit accrued to >>the bottlers (Coca-Cola, > >etc.) until someone wisely pointed out >>that this money is not the property > >of the bottlers but rather >>the state that invoked the legislation. Those > >unclaimed deposit >>funds now go to public education. > > > >Certainly the bottle bill >>will not solve all social ills - after all > >Michigan claims >>Detroit and Flint which have both held the title of Murder > >> >Capitol, USA at one time or another. A bottle bill is certainly a >>small > >step in the face of the many large issues that loom over >>this city, but it > >is a step nonetheless. > > > >-----Original >>Message----- > >> >________________________________________________________________________ >> > > > >Message: 2 > > Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:29:22 -0500 > > >>From: "Sueiro, Jose (EOM)" > >Subject: RE: Re: Interesting Article >> > > > >Good points. Sorry, I was dreaming. > >Jose > > > >> >-----Original Message----- > >From: William Jordan >>[mailto:whj@...] > >Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:26 PM >> > >To: Sueiro, Jose (EOM) > >Cc: 'Richard Layman'; >>columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com; Canavan, Patrick > >(EOM) > >> >Subject: Re: [columbia_heights] Re: Interesting Article > > > > > >> >Jose, > > > >In some respects, I view this and other exchanges on >>this list as using a > >crab net to catch minnows to use as bait to >>capture larger fish. At first > >glance, it all seems to add up. In >>order to feed a larger number of people > >we need to be able to >>catch large(r) fish. Large fish love to eat little > >fish, so >>using minnows makes goods sense. Minnows are small, so trying to > >> >capture them with a hook makes little sense, so clearly a net is >>needed. > >Crab nets are easy to find and cheap so we have our net. >>It all seems to > >make sense and is a good plan, but the people >>starve. Why, because the holes > >in crab nets are to large to >>capture minnows. > > > >I support in theory a 'bottle bill'. I >>support the connection between > >"quality of life" issues and the >>ability to tackle larger problems. But > >generally, we end up with >>policies and feel good legislation that gives us a > >brand new >>crab net. Don't get me wrong you can, actually with some work, > >> >capture a few minnows with crab net. > > > >The "bottle bill' is >>a good idea, but offers little in addresses the > >shooting that >>occurred or the personal and social issues that led up to > >> >shooting. From an objective perspective would you take serious >>some one > >talking about a 'bottle bill' if you are worried about >>shootings or gang > >issues? While, there is a relationship in the >>short term the relationship > >is too tangential. Mixing the two in >>so casual a fashion just adds to the > >distrust described. If >>things where that simple we could just transfer a > >large portions >>of criminal justice resources to DPW and have these problems > >> >licked in short order. Waith a second, that just might work, >>hmmm. But, > >I will take the "quality of life" approach seriously >>from government > >officials when I see the following actions. > > >> > >1. Hot Spot gets decleared. > >- The mayor moves his main >>office into the hot spot. > >- The council member moves his main >>office into the hot spot. > >- All major procument contracts have >>to be signed at offices in the hot > >spot. > > > >William > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >354 3600 > >Sueiro, Jose (EOM) wrote: > > > >> > > >Wow!, this is great. Comments on the bottle bill topic on >>egroup have been > >informative and fascinating. > > > >Councilman >>Graham is, once again, right on! > > > >As a disclaimer I must say >>I'm posting this during work hours on a city > >computer. The ideas >>and issues about how to abate, ameliorate or eliminate > >the >>various trash problems we face is very definitely part of what we >>do. My > >ideas are sometimes 'free form', so I will try and be >>careful with what I > >say and how I say it, but here are some >>other thoughts. > > > >Why is it that in low and moderate income >>neighborhoods attempts to > >emphasize 'quality of life' issues and >>in particular litter and > >environmental responsibility are viewed >>as burdens of secondary importance > >or in the extreme some sort >>of government imposed, repressive, outside > >regulation. Of course >>crime, our schools, police/community relations, other > >heavier >>topics are of greater concern, but isn't feeling good about your > >> >surroundings the first step in creating pride, self esteem and >>independence? > > > >Said differently, how can environmental >>initiatives be crafted in ways that > >make them part of the fabric >>of a working class communiity, attractive to > >everyone? (and >>isn't this what the Greens should be thinking about?) > > > >Then >>another, very different concern. What if we made it a rule (a law, >>if > >you will) that to sell or distribute plastic containers in >>the D. of C. you > >have to certify that they are biodegradable and >>will disintegrate in at > >least 75 to 100 years? > > > >My family >>is from the northwest corner of Spain. There is nothing more > >> >disheartening than standing on a wild shoreline and looking out >>on all the > >plastic bottles (of bleach, soft drinks, whatever) >>that wash up on the > >shore. Are any of these products made with >>'biodegradability', (sic.) in > >mind? > > > > > >Jose Sueiro > >> >Neighborhood Services Coordinator > >Ward 1 > > > > > > > >URL to >>this page on the web: >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/ > > > > > >Your use >>of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! Click Here >> > >


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