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RE: [columbia_heights] Re: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheights] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007

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  • Richard Layman
    Sure there are issues:   poverty, ethnic tension, intra-group violence (i.e., amongst Hispanics), velocity of demographic change within the neighborhood, etc.
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 3, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      Sure there are issues:
       
      poverty, ethnic tension, intra-group violence (i.e., amongst Hispanics), velocity of demographic change within the neighborhood, etc.
       
      RL



      --- On Thu, 12/3/09, whj@... <whj@...> wrote:

      From: whj@... <whj@...>
      Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheights] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
      To: "rlaymandc" <rlaymandc@...>
      Cc: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:55 PM

       
      I think that's part of the irony, Columbia Heights are not the District's toughest streets in the sense of neighborhoods suffering from full scale benign neglect, disinvestment, isolation, huge drug markets and etc..  In fact it's the opposite, CH is a (the) key hug of neighborhood revitalization, investment, developing into a center of vibrancy.  We have scores of highly rated community services organizations, some of the best neighbors you could ask for, good schools, but yet 266%.  There is really no logical reason at least on the surface. 

      -----Original Message-----
      From: "rlaymandc" <rlaymandc@yahoo. com>
      Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 2:33pm
      To: columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007

      This article in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer, is pretty interesting. http://www.philly. com/philly/ news/breaking/ 78210557. html

      From the article:

      Operation Pressure Point - the police-led effort to tamp down violence on Philadelphia' s toughest streets during the most dangerous hours - cut nighttime weekend homicides in the targeted areas by half this summer. ...

      The numbers tell part of the story: 1,775 arrests, 247 guns seized, and nearly $5 million in drugs confiscated during the seven-month operation, which wrapped up on Nov. 1. Officials did not break down the charges of those arrested.

      Pressure Point was conceived as a way to prevent violent crime. Police statistics showed that 64 percent of the city's homicides last year occurred in 12 of the districts, and half of those happened between 4 p.m. and 3 a.m. on Friday and Saturday nights.

      Pressure Point targeted those districts, at those times, dropping homicides from 47 to 23, and nonfatal shootings from 208 to 186 during those hours.

      Citywide, homicides are down this year nearly 8 percent - from 307 to 283 - and shootings are down slightly. Homicides are down nearly 24 percent from 2007.
      --------

      This is relevant to the point I made yesterday that not every PSA has problems, at least with homicides, and that focused attention on those PSAs that do, and their specific etiologies, is in order.

      RL


      --- In columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com, whj@... wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > All of this does not fall on you, but the change required is equivalent to about $1.5M - 2.0M(in the low range) in additonal resource applied and focused in 302/304/404 over the next 2 years to move the trend arrow down on crime stats and positively on other measures of community life. If the change and plans does not at least amount to this, then we are singing the same ole song to a different tune.
      >
      > Any change short of this is at best a slight of hand. I am not so much interested in change as much as for mothers to send their children out to play with little worry and etc..
      >
      > William Jordan
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: "Kishter, Jacob (MPD)" <jacob.kishter@ ...>
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:43pm
      > To: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com, 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com
      > Cc: columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com, mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com, "Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL)" <PMENDELSON@. ..>, "Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)" <VGray@...>
      > Subject: Re: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > That was not my response and there will be change.
      >
      > Inspector Jacob Kishter
      > Commander
      > Metropolitan Police Dept.
      > Third District Substation
      > 750 Park Road, NW
      > Washington, DC 20009
      > Office: 202-576-8222
      > Cell: 202-528-8612
      >
      >
      >
      > From: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com <southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com>
      > To: 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com <3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com>
      > Cc: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com <southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com>; columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com <columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com>; mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com <mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com>; 3dsubstation@ yahoogroups. com <3dsubstation@ yahoogroups. com>; Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL); Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)
      > Sent: Wed Dec 02 13:41:05 2009
      > Subject: RE: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Inspector,
      >
      > I take your response to mean that there is no need to seriously consider a change in strategy and approach? I don't by any means expect true progress to be achieved by hard working officers alone; however, the disconnect as to the seriousness of our situation here in PSA 302 does cause concern. If MPD is really goning to be a good collaborative partner in 302 you going have to cut back on spinning the data and etc. because when you do you loose the confidence of the people you are partnering with. Reported robberies with a gun are up 7% from 2008 and about 31% when using 2007 as a baseline. Robberies excluding a gun are down 6% from last year and 2% using 2007 as a baseline. This in an area where it is clear for such crimes a significantly under reported. The bottomline is the stats only give us a feel for our situation and the feeling is not one of significant progress and confidence.
      >
      > If you wish I can pull and forward and email from our previous Substation Inspector written about March of 2008 which is almost verbatim as to your response. And here we are, same plan, same approach same place, accept more of our children are dying.
      >
      > Yes, PSA302 based on the recommendation of the Chief has started an equivalent of Court Watch.
      >
      > I am not here to bash MPD, but to say we need a radically different approach. If you don't agree fine, but the stats suggest something else. I guess we need to find the courage to look beyond the status quo. We should not see a sober look at our reality as the enemy.
      >
      > William Jordan
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: "Kishter, Jacob (MPD)" <jacob.kishter@ ...>
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 9:23am
      > To: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com, columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com
      > Cc: mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com, 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com, "Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL)" <PMENDELSON@. ..>, "Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)" <VGray@...>
      > Subject: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
      >
      >
      >
      > While there is yet much work to be done by everyone from the public to the Police Department we have made great strides over the past year with many successes. Year to date violent crime overall in PSA 302 is down 5 percent. Robberies are down 4 percent. As far as the homicides are concerned, one is way too many. Our mission is to prevent the murders from occurring in the first place. We have sent a strong message that when a murder occurs in our city we will work tirelessly until there is closure and the responsible subject(s) are arrested. In the most recent PSA 302 murders, there have been closures in a matter of days. However, we can not do this alone and we continue to need the assistance from the community in a collaborative partnership to ensure that our streets are safe.
      >
      > Over the past 4 months we have implemented several new strategies with much input from community members who have been instrumental in our success. Our new Robbery Tact Unit has made 17 recent robbery arrests, which involved the closures of multiple cases. Last week with the help of the public we arrested a serial robber who attributed to many of the robberies not only in PSA 302, but in other police districts. With the subject’s arrest we closed 2 bank robberies, multiple street robberies, and several armed carjackings.
      >
      > Commander Kucik and I have implemented foot beat patrols in our most violent areas which include 24 hour coverage. We have stepped up our drug enforcement efforts in the same areas which have included short and long term investigations which have yielded numerous key arrests.
      >
      > On Thursday, we are meeting with CM Graham’s office to develop a comprehensive approach to fighting crime using whatever resources we have at our disposal, which will involve input from the community. A public meeting will be held in the next week.
      >
      > There is much more work to be done and we look forward to our future successes.
      >
      >
      > Inspector Jacob Kishter
      > Commander
      > Metropolitan Police Dept.
      > Third District Substation
      > 750 Park Road, NW
      > Washington, DC 20009
      > Office: 202-576-8222
      > Cell: 202-528-8612
      > [http://www. census.dc. gov/]
      > [http://www. census.dc. gov/]
      > Make a difference in your community.
      > Watch your US mail for your 2010 Census Form.
      > [http://www. census.dc. gov/] www.census.dc. gov
      >
      >
      >
      > From: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com [mailto:southcolumb iaheights@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of whj@...
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:48 AM
      > To: columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com; southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com
      > Cc: mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com; 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com; Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL); Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)
      > Subject: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > According to stats from crimemap.dc. gov, murders in PSA 302 are up 266% since 2007 when comparing year-to-date numbers as of November 30th. There were 3 murders by this time in 2007, the year-to-date number in 2009 is 11. In this same PSA robberies with guns are up about 31% when comparing the same time periods. Most other a catagories have fluctuate up in down resulting in an an overall crime rate in this PSA of "basically No Change" during this time period. PSA encompasses basically the Northern half of the Columbia Heights/Pleasant Plains neighborhoods. Home to the District's most diverse populations, largest retail center and fasting growing Metro Station. The PSA represents about billions of in public and private investmentover the last 6 years and in many ways is a microcosm of this city's future. ; By almost any measure public safety efforts over the last 3 years are not producing acceptable results and continues the ballon affect trends when crime stopped its steady drop in about 2003. We need a change in priorities, strategy and approach.
      >
      >
      >
      > The implications for the rest of city given PSA302's situation must be taken seriously. PSA 302 gives us a climpse of how current public safety priorities, strategies and approaches operate under a real life load of a diverse and vibrant city and high profile quick hit efforts are not sustainable, can't throw up a road block around Columbia Heights constitutional or not. I can't prove it but All-Hands-On- Desks seems to have an inverse relatiohship to crime rates in PSA 302. Grassroot community efforts in PSA 302 are important and make a difference; however, bad and some times bad or lazy public policy approaches often negates and underminds these efforts. Encouraging neighbors in a very diverse and active community to be suspicious of one another is not a sustainable and winning strategy.
      >
      >
      >
      > PSA 302 needs a real community policing strategy with is taylored for our community. We also need to move rapidly toward establishing a Business/Neighborho od Improvement District as the demands on our area is greater than our normal infrastructure can handle. To date there is reluctance to fully make these commi tments and investments, instead there is a reliance on half measures. There are no short cuts or ways to spin out of this. I hope petty politics will be set-a-side to get done these and other necessary changes in policy and approach.
      >
      >
      >
      > William Jordan, ANC1A05
      >




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    • Jack
      Of course there are issues . But there have long been these problems. What s changed, such that the homicide rate has doubled in the past few years? The most
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 7, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Of course there are "issues". But there have long been these problems. What's changed, such that the homicide rate has doubled in the past few years? The most obvious change is the DCUSA development, and the influx of middle-income folks to the new condos. Surely that's not the reason for a doubling of the number of homicides.

        There's always the possibility that this is just the normal variation in small-number statistics. On the other hand, there could be something real. If there's anything about the CH homicides that stands out, it's that many of the victims are Latino, such as the child most recently shot dead in a Columbia Road apartment. We need to be looking closely at these incidents and asking "why", and "what can we do about them".

        -- Jack



        --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, Richard Layman <rlaymandc@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sure there are issues:
        >  
        > poverty, ethnic tension, intra-group violence (i.e., amongst Hispanics), velocity of demographic change within the neighborhood, etc.
        >  
        > RL
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Thu, 12/3/09, whj@... <whj@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: whj@... <whj@...>
        > Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] Re: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheights] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
        > To: "rlaymandc" <rlaymandc@...>
        > Cc: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Thursday, December 3, 2009, 2:55 PM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I think that's part of the irony, Columbia Heights are not the District's toughest streets in the sense of neighborhoods suffering from full scale benign neglect, disinvestment, isolation, huge drug markets and etc..  In fact it's the opposite, CH is a (the) key hug of neighborhood revitalization, investment, developing into a center of vibrancy.  We have scores of highly rated community services organizations, some of the best neighbors you could ask for, good schools, but yet 266%.  There is really no logical reason at least on the surface. 
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: "rlaymandc" <rlaymandc@yahoo. com>
        > Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 2:33pm
        > To: columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com
        > Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
        >
        > This article in yesterday's Philadelphia Inquirer, is pretty interesting. http://www.philly. com/philly/ news/breaking/ 78210557. html
        >
        > From the article:
        >
        > Operation Pressure Point - the police-led effort to tamp down violence on Philadelphia' s toughest streets during the most dangerous hours - cut nighttime weekend homicides in the targeted areas by half this summer. ...
        >
        > The numbers tell part of the story: 1,775 arrests, 247 guns seized, and nearly $5 million in drugs confiscated during the seven-month operation, which wrapped up on Nov. 1. Officials did not break down the charges of those arrested.
        >
        > Pressure Point was conceived as a way to prevent violent crime. Police statistics showed that 64 percent of the city's homicides last year occurred in 12 of the districts, and half of those happened between 4 p.m. and 3 a.m. on Friday and Saturday nights.
        >
        > Pressure Point targeted those districts, at those times, dropping homicides from 47 to 23, and nonfatal shootings from 208 to 186 during those hours.
        >
        > Citywide, homicides are down this year nearly 8 percent - from 307 to 283 - and shootings are down slightly. Homicides are down nearly 24 percent from 2007.
        > --------
        >
        > This is relevant to the point I made yesterday that not every PSA has problems, at least with homicides, and that focused attention on those PSAs that do, and their specific etiologies, is in order.
        >
        > RL
        >
        >
        > --- In columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com, whj@ wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > All of this does not fall on you, but the change required is equivalent to about $1.5M - 2.0M(in the low range) in additonal resource applied and focused in 302/304/404 over the next 2 years to move the trend arrow down on crime stats and positively on other measures of community life. If the change and plans does not at least amount to this, then we are singing the same ole song to a different tune.
        > >
        > > Any change short of this is at best a slight of hand. I am not so much interested in change as much as for mothers to send their children out to play with little worry and etc..
        > >
        > > William Jordan
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: "Kishter, Jacob (MPD)" <jacob.kishter@ ...>
        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:43pm
        > > To: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com, 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Cc: columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com, mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com, "Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL)" <PMENDELSON@ ..>, "Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)" <VGray@>
        > > Subject: Re: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > That was not my response and there will be change.
        > >
        > > Inspector Jacob Kishter
        > > Commander
        > > Metropolitan Police Dept.
        > > Third District Substation
        > > 750 Park Road, NW
        > > Washington, DC 20009
        > > Office: 202-576-8222
        > > Cell: 202-528-8612
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com <southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com>
        > > To: 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com <3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com>
        > > Cc: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com <southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com>; columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com <columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com>; mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com <mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com>; 3dsubstation@ yahoogroups. com <3dsubstation@ yahoogroups. com>; Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL); Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)
        > > Sent: Wed Dec 02 13:41:05 2009
        > > Subject: RE: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Inspector,
        > >
        > > I take your response to mean that there is no need to seriously consider a change in strategy and approach? I don't by any means expect true progress to be achieved by hard working officers alone; however, the disconnect as to the seriousness of our situation here in PSA 302 does cause concern. If MPD is really goning to be a good collaborative partner in 302 you going have to cut back on spinning the data and etc. because when you do you loose the confidence of the people you are partnering with. Reported robberies with a gun are up 7% from 2008 and about 31% when using 2007 as a baseline. Robberies excluding a gun are down 6% from last year and 2% using 2007 as a baseline. This in an area where it is clear for such crimes a significantly under reported. The bottomline is the stats only give us a feel for our situation and the feeling is not one of significant progress and confidence.
        > >
        > > If you wish I can pull and forward and email from our previous Substation Inspector written about March of 2008 which is almost verbatim as to your response. And here we are, same plan, same approach same place, accept more of our children are dying.
        > >
        > > Yes, PSA302 based on the recommendation of the Chief has started an equivalent of Court Watch.
        > >
        > > I am not here to bash MPD, but to say we need a radically different approach. If you don't agree fine, but the stats suggest something else. I guess we need to find the courage to look beyond the status quo. We should not see a sober look at our reality as the enemy.
        > >
        > > William Jordan
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: "Kishter, Jacob (MPD)" <jacob.kishter@ ...>
        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2009 9:23am
        > > To: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com, columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com
        > > Cc: mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com, 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com, "Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL)" <PMENDELSON@ ..>, "Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)" <VGray@>
        > > Subject: [3DSubstation] RE: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > While there is yet much work to be done by everyone from the public to the Police Department we have made great strides over the past year with many successes. Year to date violent crime overall in PSA 302 is down 5 percent. Robberies are down 4 percent. As far as the homicides are concerned, one is way too many. Our mission is to prevent the murders from occurring in the first place. We have sent a strong message that when a murder occurs in our city we will work tirelessly until there is closure and the responsible subject(s) are arrested. In the most recent PSA 302 murders, there have been closures in a matter of days. However, we can not do this alone and we continue to need the assistance from the community in a collaborative partnership to ensure that our streets are safe.
        > >
        > > Over the past 4 months we have implemented several new strategies with much input from community members who have been instrumental in our success. Our new Robbery Tact Unit has made 17 recent robbery arrests, which involved the closures of multiple cases. Last week with the help of the public we arrested a serial robber who attributed to many of the robberies not only in PSA 302, but in other police districts. With the subject’s arrest we closed 2 bank robberies, multiple street robberies, and several armed carjackings.
        > >
        > > Commander Kucik and I have implemented foot beat patrols in our most violent areas which include 24 hour coverage. We have stepped up our drug enforcement efforts in the same areas which have included short and long term investigations which have yielded numerous key arrests.
        > >
        > > On Thursday, we are meeting with CM Graham’s office to develop a comprehensive approach to fighting crime using whatever resources we have at our disposal, which will involve input from the community. A public meeting will be held in the next week.
        > >
        > > There is much more work to be done and we look forward to our future successes.
        > >
        > >
        > > Inspector Jacob Kishter
        > > Commander
        > > Metropolitan Police Dept.
        > > Third District Substation
        > > 750 Park Road, NW
        > > Washington, DC 20009
        > > Office: 202-576-8222
        > > Cell: 202-528-8612
        > > [http://www. census.dc. gov/]
        > > [http://www. census.dc. gov/]
        > > Make a difference in your community.
        > > Watch your US mail for your 2010 Census Form.
        > > [http://www. census.dc. gov/] www.census.dc. gov
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com [mailto:southcolumb iaheights@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of whj@
        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:48 AM
        > > To: columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com; southcolumbiaheight s@yahoogroups. com
        > > Cc: mpd-3d@yahoogroups. com; 3DSubstation@ yahoogroups. com; Mendelson, Phil (COUNCIL); Gray, Vincent (COUNCIL)
        > > Subject: [southcolumbiaheigh ts] Murders up 266% in PSA 302 Since 2007
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > According to stats from crimemap.dc. gov, murders in PSA 302 are up 266% since 2007 when comparing year-to-date numbers as of November 30th. There were 3 murders by this time in 2007, the year-to-date number in 2009 is 11. In this same PSA robberies with guns are up about 31% when comparing the same time periods. Most other a catagories have fluctuate up in down resulting in an an overall crime rate in this PSA of "basically No Change" during this time period. PSA encompasses basically the Northern half of the Columbia Heights/Pleasant Plains neighborhoods. Home to the District's most diverse populations, largest retail center and fasting growing Metro Station. The PSA represents about billions of in public and private investmentover the last 6 years and in many ways is a microcosm of this city's future. ; By almost any measure public safety efforts over the last 3 years are not producing acceptable results and continues the ballon affect trends when
        > crime stopped its steady drop in about 2003. We need a change in priorities, strategy and approach.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The implications for the rest of city given PSA302's situation must be taken seriously. PSA 302 gives us a climpse of how current public safety priorities, strategies and approaches operate under a real life load of a diverse and vibrant city and high profile quick hit efforts are not sustainable, can't throw up a road block around Columbia Heights constitutional or not. I can't prove it but All-Hands-On- Desks seems to have an inverse relatiohship to crime rates in PSA 302. Grassroot community efforts in PSA 302 are important and make a difference; however, bad and some times bad or lazy public policy approaches often negates and underminds these efforts. Encouraging neighbors in a very diverse and active community to be suspicious of one another is not a sustainable and winning strategy.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > PSA 302 needs a real community policing strategy with is taylored for our community. We also need to move rapidly toward establishing a Business/Neighborho od Improvement District as the demands on our area is greater than our normal infrastructure can handle. To date there is reluctance to fully make these commi tments and investments, instead there is a reliance on half measures. There are no short cuts or ways to spin out of this. I hope petty politics will be set-a-side to get done these and other necessary changes in policy and approach.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > William Jordan, ANC1A05
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
        >
        > URL to this page on the web: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/columbia_ heights/
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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