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RE: [columbia_heights] Re: The Whole Foods

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  • Chris G
    The original article that started this string was more about Whole Foods as a social and class issue than it was about whether or not the place would be swell
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2006
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      The original article that started this string was more about Whole Foods as
      a social and class issue than it was about whether or not the place would be
      swell to have in the neighborhood.


      >From: "iggy1807" <iggy1807@...>
      >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: The Whole Foods
      >Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 21:55:35 -0000
      >
      >You've almost won. I am nearly ready to stop reading your posts
      >altogether about the class issues and other non-relevant fodder
      >regarding Whole Foods. BTW, I don't agree w/ the WIC comment either,
      >it was only a flame and it shouldn't confuse the issue of the need
      >for decent foodstuffs (outside the Farmer's market, future butcher,
      >future better-run Giant etc). I do shop at the Mt Pleasant stores
      >like Best Way already; I'll buy black beans, tonic and limes there,
      >but I've not seen seafood and doubt I'd buy it. FYI, I think they're
      >Korean run/Latina manned; but I'm not splitting hairs on that one.
      >
      >I shop at Whole Foods because I like their stuff and corporate
      >philosophy. Just read about their commitment to Sustainable Fishing
      >and their involvement with the Marine Stewardship Council to know
      >where their coming from: http://eng.msc.org/html/content_592.htm --
      >I like the idea that a corporation would have a consciousness
      >regarding sustainable fishing. I realize that not everyone's going
      >to shop at a Whole Foods type store for whatever reason, so I'm glad
      >1.86 miles isn't that far. :-0
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >URL to this page on the web:
      >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • jon_audino19
      This is more ignorant than most of my posts. At the end of the day this is still America. As much as you wish to socialize or communize the country it is
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 2, 2006
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        This is more ignorant than most of my posts. At the end of the day
        this is still America. As much as you wish to "socialize"
        or "communize" the country it is still a capitalist society. The
        market forces will dictate what is successful and what isn't. If
        enough people chose to spend their disposable income at Target or
        Whole Foods than they will succeed here. The same can be said for
        Nash's Casuals.

        I for one find it appalling that small businesses like CH Coffee
        expect to maintain a neighborhood monopoly when they charge HIGHER
        prices than Starbucks. If you are trying to build a neighborhood
        business price gauging the neighbors is not the way to do it.


        --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "daves_trip"
        <daves_trip@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hear hear!
        >
        > I'd go even a step further and say how about if we just create a
        political and regulatory
        > environment that doesn't strangle small neighborhood businesses. A
        variety of small
        > groceries that sell what they want when they want would be a huge
        source of competition
        > to the big box big rip off factories.
        >
        > I bet DC's government has killed more people's small business
        dreams than any crime
        > wave, economic crisis or the like. Go ahead and start a business in
        DC. I dare you. Yet if
        > you are Target you are actively courted. Hell DCRA can't even
        enforce a stop work order, or
        > apparently carry out any of their other supposed (mal)functions.
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "tamargreenspan"
        <tgreenspan@> wrote:
        >
        > > I was outraged when I read the comment about WIC moms. ...
        > And then ask yourself if the best solution is simply to go
        > > shop at a more expensive store
        >
      • Joel
        Your comments re: Columbia Heights Coffee are short sighted. In a pitch to offer customer service, they offer free internet access along with that cup of
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 3, 2006
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          Your comments re: Columbia Heights Coffee are short
          sighted. In a pitch to offer customer service, they offer
          free internet access along with that cup of coffee.
          Therefore, it is a built in expense just like Tryst and
          other independent coffee shops. Starbucks charges for that
          expense separately and when combined probably is more
          expensive than the independent coffee shops.

          Perhaps, you are not their ideal customer meaning an
          internet using coffee drinker with an independent spirit.
          However, that's the total package of that business which is
          take it or leave it.

          --- jon_audino19 <jon_audino19@...> wrote:

          > This is more ignorant than most of my posts. At the end
          > of the day
          > this is still America. As much as you wish to
          > "socialize"
          > or "communize" the country it is still a capitalist
          > society. The
          > market forces will dictate what is successful and what
          > isn't. If
          > enough people chose to spend their disposable income at
          > Target or
          > Whole Foods than they will succeed here. The same can be
          > said for
          > Nash's Casuals.
          >
          > I for one find it appalling that small businesses like CH
          > Coffee
          > expect to maintain a neighborhood monopoly when they
          > charge HIGHER
          > prices than Starbucks. If you are trying to build a
          > neighborhood
          > business price gauging the neighbors is not the way to do
          > it.
          >
          >
          > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "daves_trip"
          > <daves_trip@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hear hear!
          > >
          > > I'd go even a step further and say how about if we just
          > create a
          > political and regulatory
          > > environment that doesn't strangle small neighborhood
          > businesses. A
          > variety of small
          > > groceries that sell what they want when they want would
          > be a huge
          > source of competition
          > > to the big box big rip off factories.
          > >
          > > I bet DC's government has killed more people's small
          > business
          > dreams than any crime
          > > wave, economic crisis or the like. Go ahead and start a
          > business in
          > DC. I dare you. Yet if
          > > you are Target you are actively courted. Hell DCRA
          > can't even
          > enforce a stop work order, or
          > > apparently carry out any of their other supposed
          > (mal)functions.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com,
          > "tamargreenspan"
          > <tgreenspan@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > I was outraged when I read the comment about WIC
          > moms. ...
          > > And then ask yourself if the best solution is simply to
          > go
          > > > shop at a more expensive store
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >


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        • cmr2424
          I d agree with this sentiment, and add that CHC s monopoly will soon be ended with the arrival of Kudo Beans and, eventually, Starbucks. Market forces will
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 3, 2006
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            I'd agree with this sentiment, and add that CHC's "monopoly" will
            soon be ended with the arrival of Kudo Beans and, eventually,
            Starbucks. Market forces will work their magic at that point --
            those who prefer the independent sip-and-surf, or just don't want to
            walk an extra two blocks, will stick with CHC, and Starbucks will
            draw its usual clientele. And if all else fails, eventually the
            McDonald's will be selling coffee, too.

            On a separate note, the thing that strikes me in this Whole Foods
            discussion is that it's really not about the independents vs. the
            corporate stores; that moment has passed for the DC USA project,
            where there are approximately 35,000 square feet of unleased retail
            space remaining. The issue is what might (should?) go in that
            space. I'd suggest that there aren't many -- if any -- independent
            businesses that are (a) big enough to fill that space (assuming it's
            not sub-divided) and (b) able to pay the rent and assume the lease
            term DC USA probably requires. Unless someone gets radical and
            proposes a European-style covered market, there will be some
            corporate entity in that space. Once you get to that point, it's
            just a matter of consumer preference.

            Not to say I wouldn't love more independent shops in Columbia
            Heights generally. But in the context of the DC USA development,
            the idea that much of anything will be independent is somewhat
            laughable.


            --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, Joel <dc_gay_man@...> wrote:
            >
            > Your comments re: Columbia Heights Coffee are short
            > sighted. In a pitch to offer customer service, they offer
            > free internet access along with that cup of coffee.
            > Therefore, it is a built in expense just like Tryst and
            > other independent coffee shops. Starbucks charges for that
            > expense separately and when combined probably is more
            > expensive than the independent coffee shops.
            >
            > Perhaps, you are not their ideal customer meaning an
            > internet using coffee drinker with an independent spirit.
            > However, that's the total package of that business which is
            > take it or leave it.
            >
          • Chris G
            I m afraid I m pretty agnostic when it comes to some of the discussion about big box stores, except to say that there s plenty of District residents shopping
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 3, 2006
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              I'm afraid I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to some of the discussion about
              "big box" stores, except to say that there's plenty of District residents
              shopping at them and it seems to me that it makes sense to have at least
              some of them in the District itself so that any tax revenue stays here
              rather than going to VA or MD.
              Having said that, putting aside the fact that even the smallest business is
              still a corporate entity (even the individual stalls of a European-style
              covered market, which would be great, are a sort of corporate entity), I was
              under the impression that some of the retail space at DC/USA was to be
              set-aside for local small businesses. In fact, I thought there was even
              some small amount of cash for those purposes in the financing of the
              building.


              >From: "cmr2424" <cmr2424@...>
              >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: About Jon's remark re: Columbia Heights
              >Coffee
              >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:42:43 -0000
              >
              >I'd agree with this sentiment, and add that CHC's "monopoly" will
              >soon be ended with the arrival of Kudo Beans and, eventually,
              >Starbucks. Market forces will work their magic at that point --
              >those who prefer the independent sip-and-surf, or just don't want to
              >walk an extra two blocks, will stick with CHC, and Starbucks will
              >draw its usual clientele. And if all else fails, eventually the
              >McDonald's will be selling coffee, too.
              >
              >On a separate note, the thing that strikes me in this Whole Foods
              >discussion is that it's really not about the independents vs. the
              >corporate stores; that moment has passed for the DC USA project,
              >where there are approximately 35,000 square feet of unleased retail
              >space remaining. The issue is what might (should?) go in that
              >space. I'd suggest that there aren't many -- if any -- independent
              >businesses that are (a) big enough to fill that space (assuming it's
              >not sub-divided) and (b) able to pay the rent and assume the lease
              >term DC USA probably requires. Unless someone gets radical and
              >proposes a European-style covered market, there will be some
              >corporate entity in that space. Once you get to that point, it's
              >just a matter of consumer preference.
              >
              >Not to say I wouldn't love more independent shops in Columbia
              >Heights generally. But in the context of the DC USA development,
              >the idea that much of anything will be independent is somewhat
              >laughable.
              >
              >
              >--- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, Joel <dc_gay_man@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Your comments re: Columbia Heights Coffee are short
              > > sighted. In a pitch to offer customer service, they offer
              > > free internet access along with that cup of coffee.
              > > Therefore, it is a built in expense just like Tryst and
              > > other independent coffee shops. Starbucks charges for that
              > > expense separately and when combined probably is more
              > > expensive than the independent coffee shops.
              > >
              > > Perhaps, you are not their ideal customer meaning an
              > > internet using coffee drinker with an independent spirit.
              > > However, that's the total package of that business which is
              > > take it or leave it.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >URL to this page on the web:
              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • cmr2424
              A fair point, and you re right. To clarify ... my cynicism is largely from the fact that even these smaller, subsidized set asides aren t being used for truly
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 3, 2006
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                A fair point, and you're right. To clarify ... my cynicism is
                largely from the fact that even these smaller, subsidized set asides
                aren't being used for truly "independent" businesses, and they
                largely appear to be franchisees of national chains. The
                individuals who are running these franchises may very well be local,
                but the businesses they are running are not of the "unique to DC"
                variety (think Wonderland, CH Coffee, and Gloria's, for instance).
                Moreover, I believe the program is as much for minority ownership as
                it is for local/independent ownership. According to press reports,
                14 of the 15 spaces available under this program are leased out, and
                none of the businesses bear names you wouldn't already recognize.
                Certainly, most of them will be reverting some portion of their
                profits back to a "corporate" entity by way of a franchise fee,
                which means it won't all be staying in the community.


                --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "Chris G" <cgoulddc@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I'm afraid I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to some of the
                discussion about
                > "big box" stores, except to say that there's plenty of District
                residents
                > shopping at them and it seems to me that it makes sense to have at
                least
                > some of them in the District itself so that any tax revenue stays
                here
                > rather than going to VA or MD.
                > Having said that, putting aside the fact that even the smallest
                business is
                > still a corporate entity (even the individual stalls of a European-
                style
                > covered market, which would be great, are a sort of corporate
                entity), I was
                > under the impression that some of the retail space at DC/USA was
                to be
                > set-aside for local small businesses. In fact, I thought there
                was even
                > some small amount of cash for those purposes in the financing of
                the
                > building.
                >
                >
                > >From: "cmr2424" <cmr2424@...>
                > >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: About Jon's remark re: Columbia
                Heights
                > >Coffee
                > >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:42:43 -0000
                > >
                > >I'd agree with this sentiment, and add that CHC's "monopoly" will
                > >soon be ended with the arrival of Kudo Beans and, eventually,
                > >Starbucks. Market forces will work their magic at that point --
                > >those who prefer the independent sip-and-surf, or just don't want
                to
                > >walk an extra two blocks, will stick with CHC, and Starbucks will
                > >draw its usual clientele. And if all else fails, eventually the
                > >McDonald's will be selling coffee, too.
                > >
                > >On a separate note, the thing that strikes me in this Whole Foods
                > >discussion is that it's really not about the independents vs. the
                > >corporate stores; that moment has passed for the DC USA project,
                > >where there are approximately 35,000 square feet of unleased
                retail
                > >space remaining. The issue is what might (should?) go in that
                > >space. I'd suggest that there aren't many -- if any --
                independent
                > >businesses that are (a) big enough to fill that space (assuming
                it's
                > >not sub-divided) and (b) able to pay the rent and assume the lease
                > >term DC USA probably requires. Unless someone gets radical and
                > >proposes a European-style covered market, there will be some
                > >corporate entity in that space. Once you get to that point, it's
                > >just a matter of consumer preference.
                > >
                > >Not to say I wouldn't love more independent shops in Columbia
                > >Heights generally. But in the context of the DC USA development,
                > >the idea that much of anything will be independent is somewhat
                > >laughable.
                > >
                > >
                > >--- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, Joel <dc_gay_man@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Your comments re: Columbia Heights Coffee are short
                > > > sighted. In a pitch to offer customer service, they offer
                > > > free internet access along with that cup of coffee.
                > > > Therefore, it is a built in expense just like Tryst and
                > > > other independent coffee shops. Starbucks charges for that
                > > > expense separately and when combined probably is more
                > > > expensive than the independent coffee shops.
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps, you are not their ideal customer meaning an
                > > > internet using coffee drinker with an independent spirit.
                > > > However, that's the total package of that business which is
                > > > take it or leave it.
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >URL to this page on the web:
                > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                > >
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
              • Richard Layman
                I have written about this broad issue of support and development of independent businesses so much in this list as well as my blog, so I won t bother
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  I have written about this broad issue of support and development of independent businesses so much in this list as well as my blog, so I won't bother repeating.  However, I will make a point.  Just because Columbia Heights Coffee is independent, doesn't mean that their costs of good sold is cheaper than "chains."  In fact as you can imagine, it's the opposite.
                   
                  (WRT franchises vs. true independents, it can be fostered, but you have to have a focused intensive program to make it work.  I don't know what was done at DCUSA, but I can't imagine it was such a program, as I haven't come across any such in the region that are done to the extent of the best practices examples elsewhere.)
                   
                  Starbucks buys in "volume."  They get cheaper prices as a result.
                   
                  E.g., just for a coffee cup to be imprinted at a cost-effective price, I think you have to buy a quantity of 150,000-200,000.
                   
                  Even so, when you do a competitive analysis, you do tend to want to set your prices in the range of your competitors (after all that's who your business is compared to, like it or not).  If you charge more, it ought to be because you provide a definite difference, i.e., such as Illy coffee.
                   
                  Richard Layman

                  cmr2424 <cmr2424@...> wrote:
                  A fair point, and you're right. To clarify ... my cynicism is
                  largely from the fact that even these smaller, subsidized set asides
                  aren't being used for truly "independent" businesses, and they
                  largely appear to be franchisees of national chains. The
                  individuals who are running these franchises may very well be local,
                  but the businesses they are running are not of the "unique to DC"
                  variety (think Wonderland, CH Coffee, and Gloria's, for instance).
                  Moreover, I believe the program is as much for minority ownership as
                  it is for local/independent ownership. According to press reports,
                  14 of the 15 spaces available under this program are leased out, and
                  none of the businesses bear names you wouldn't already recognize.
                  Certainly, most of them will be reverting some portion of their
                  profits back to a "corporate" entity by way of a franchise fee,
                  which means it won't all be staying in the community.

                  --- In columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com, "Chris G" <cgoulddc@.. .>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I'm afraid I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to some of the
                  discussion about
                  > "big box" stores, except to say that there's plenty of District
                  residents
                  > shopping at them and it seems to me that it makes sense to have at
                  least
                  > some of them in the District itself so that any tax revenue stays
                  here
                  > rather than going to VA or MD.
                  > Having said that, putting aside the fact that even the smallest
                  business is
                  > still a corporate entity (even the individual stalls of a European-
                  style
                  > covered market, which would be great, are a sort of corporate
                  entity), I was
                  > under the impression that some of the retail space at DC/USA was
                  to be
                  > set-aside for local small businesses. In fact, I thought there
                  was even
                  > some small amount of cash for those purposes in the financing of
                  the
                  > building.
                  >
                  >
                  > >From: "cmr2424" <cmr2424@... >
                  > >To: columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com
                  > >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: About Jon's remark re: Columbia
                  Heights
                  > >Coffee
                  > >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:42:43 -0000
                  > >
                  > >I'd agree with this sentiment, and add that CHC's "monopoly" will
                  > >soon be ended with the arrival of Kudo Beans and, eventually,
                  > >Starbucks. Market forces will work their magic at that point --
                  > >those who prefer the independent sip-and-surf, or just don't want
                  to
                  > >walk an extra two blocks, will stick with CHC, and Starbucks will
                  > >draw its usual clientele. And if all else fails, eventually the
                  > >McDonald's will be selling coffee, too.
                  > >
                  > >On a separate note, the thing that strikes me in this Whole Foods
                  > >discussion is that it's really not about the independents vs. the
                  > >corporate stores; that moment has passed for the DC USA project,
                  > >where there are approximately 35,000 square feet of unleased
                  retail
                  > >space remaining. The issue is what might (should?) go in that
                  > >space. I'd suggest that there aren't many -- if any --
                  independent
                  > >businesses that are (a) big enough to fill that space (assuming
                  it's
                  > >not sub-divided) and (b) able to pay the rent and assume the lease
                  > >term DC USA probably requires. Unless someone gets radical and
                  > >proposes a European-style covered market, there will be some
                  > >corporate entity in that space. Once you get to that point, it's
                  > >just a matter of consumer preference.
                  > >
                  > >Not to say I wouldn't love more independent shops in Columbia
                  > >Heights generally. But in the context of the DC USA development,
                  > >the idea that much of anything will be independent is somewhat
                  > >laughable.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In columbia_heights@ yahoogroups. com, Joel <dc_gay_man@ > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Your comments re: Columbia Heights Coffee are short
                  > > > sighted. In a pitch to offer customer service, they offer
                  > > > free internet access along with that cup of coffee.
                  > > > Therefore, it is a built in expense just like Tryst and
                  > > > other independent coffee shops. Starbucks charges for that
                  > > > expense separately and when combined probably is more
                  > > > expensive than the independent coffee shops.
                  > > >
                  > > > Perhaps, you are not their ideal customer meaning an
                  > > > internet using coffee drinker with an independent spirit.
                  > > > However, that's the total package of that business which is
                  > > > take it or leave it.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >URL to this page on the web:
                  > >http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/columbia_ heights/
                  > >
                  > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >


                • daves_trip
                  ... errr...not even close. At the end of the day ... huh? whatchyoo talkn bout willis? it is still a capitalist society. The ... ok fine, but at least let the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 3, 2006
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                    --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "jon_audino19" <jon_audino19@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > This is more ignorant than most of my posts.

                    errr...not even close.

                    At the end of the day
                    > this is still America. As much as you wish to "socialize"
                    > or "communize" the country

                    huh? whatchyoo talkn bout willis?

                    it is still a capitalist society. The
                    > market forces will dictate what is successful and what isn't.

                    ok fine, but at least let the small businesses open! DCRA employees sit on their fat asses
                    doing nothing while prospective business owners pay rent on empty spaces. it happens!
                    and for no reason!

                    If
                    > enough people chose to spend their disposable income at Target or
                    > Whole Foods than they will succeed here.

                    true. I'll go too. but I would prefer it if there were more small businesses and less big
                    ones. it fosters competition and adds alot of character to a neighborhood as well as safety
                    by having people out and about instead of driving 6 blocks to go fill up their minivan at
                    target.


                    > I for one find it appalling that small businesses like CH Coffee
                    > expect to maintain a neighborhood monopoly when they charge HIGHER
                    > prices than Starbucks.

                    it's worth it if by paying that extra money you don't have to drink starbucks! you know,
                    home depot lumber is cheaper than a lumberyard. so fucking what. the product an
                    selection are terrible. you are a sucker if you choose starbucks.

                    > If you are trying to build a neighborhood
                    > business price gauging the neighbors is not the way to do it.

                    I agree with that statement but I don't think it is happening there. CHC could use some
                    improvement sure and I don't think the owner tries very hard beyond "the basics."

                    but to say he is gouging or to imply we'd be better off with a starbucks is further than I'm
                    willing to go.


                    >
                    > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "daves_trip"
                    > <daves_trip@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hear hear!
                    > >
                    > > I'd go even a step further and say how about if we just create a
                    > political and regulatory
                    > > environment that doesn't strangle small neighborhood businesses. A
                    > variety of small
                    > > groceries that sell what they want when they want would be a huge
                    > source of competition
                    > > to the big box big rip off factories.
                    > >
                    > > I bet DC's government has killed more people's small business
                    > dreams than any crime
                    > > wave, economic crisis or the like. Go ahead and start a business in
                    > DC. I dare you. Yet if
                    > > you are Target you are actively courted. Hell DCRA can't even
                    > enforce a stop work order, or
                    > > apparently carry out any of their other supposed (mal)functions.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "tamargreenspan"
                    > <tgreenspan@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > I was outraged when I read the comment about WIC moms. ...
                    > > And then ask yourself if the best solution is simply to go
                    > > > shop at a more expensive store
                    > >
                    >
                  • Glenn Greene
                    I m not a coffee drinker myself but many of my coffee drinking friends truly detest Starbucks coffee. Someone with a dim view of Starbucks offerings might
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 4, 2006
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                      I'm not a coffee drinker myself but many of my coffee drinking friends
                      truly detest Starbucks' coffee. Someone with a dim view of Starbucks'
                      offerings might not mind paying a bit more for a better cup of joe.
                      And in any event, it seems to me that a $4.50 cup of coffee is no more
                      gouging than a $4.00 cup. Both are equally absurd. If you want cheap
                      coffee, go to a 7-11.


                      --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "jon_audino19"
                      <jon_audino19@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > This is more ignorant than most of my posts. At the end of the day
                      > this is still America. As much as you wish to "socialize"
                      > or "communize" the country it is still a capitalist society. The
                      > market forces will dictate what is successful and what isn't. If
                      > enough people chose to spend their disposable income at Target or
                      > Whole Foods than they will succeed here. The same can be said for
                      > Nash's Casuals.
                      >
                      > I for one find it appalling that small businesses like CH Coffee
                      > expect to maintain a neighborhood monopoly when they charge HIGHER
                      > prices than Starbucks. If you are trying to build a neighborhood
                      > business price gauging the neighbors is not the way to do it.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "daves_trip"
                      > <daves_trip@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hear hear!
                      > >
                      > > I'd go even a step further and say how about if we just create a
                      > political and regulatory
                      > > environment that doesn't strangle small neighborhood businesses. A
                      > variety of small
                      > > groceries that sell what they want when they want would be a huge
                      > source of competition
                      > > to the big box big rip off factories.
                      > >
                      > > I bet DC's government has killed more people's small business
                      > dreams than any crime
                      > > wave, economic crisis or the like. Go ahead and start a business in
                      > DC. I dare you. Yet if
                      > > you are Target you are actively courted. Hell DCRA can't even
                      > enforce a stop work order, or
                      > > apparently carry out any of their other supposed (mal)functions.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "tamargreenspan"
                      > <tgreenspan@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > I was outraged when I read the comment about WIC moms. ...
                      > > And then ask yourself if the best solution is simply to go
                      > > > shop at a more expensive store
                      > >
                      >
                    • whitinghandg
                      Why don t you experts on coffee shops pool your cash and open one up in the neighborhood and show Columbia Heights Coffee how it should be done? Geesh. Is
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 4, 2006
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                        Why don't you experts on coffee shops pool your cash and open one up
                        in the neighborhood and show Columbia Heights Coffee how it should be
                        done? Geesh.
                        Is this what new owners of "independent" businesses in CH can expect?
                        "Please invest your money in a store in my neighborhood and I promise
                        to patronize you, as long as your prices are cheaper and your service
                        is better than the MegaloMart with billions of dollars more buying
                        power and brand recognition." It's like the people who "love"
                        independent bookstores where they can sit around for ten hours a day
                        and read for free but when it comes to buying a book shop online at
                        Amazon. If the principle of supporting an independent business was
                        really that important to you, you wouldn't mind paying a couple of
                        quarters more for a cup of coffee than you'd pay at some chain store.

                        --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, Richard Layman
                        <rlaymandc@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have written about this broad issue of support and development of
                        independent businesses so much in this list as well as my blog, so I
                        won't bother repeating. However, I will make a point. Just because
                        Columbia Heights Coffee is independent, doesn't mean that their costs
                        of good sold is cheaper than "chains." In fact as you can imagine,
                        it's the opposite.
                        >
                        > (WRT franchises vs. true independents, it can be fostered, but you
                        have to have a focused intensive program to make it work. I don't
                        know what was done at DCUSA, but I can't imagine it was such a
                        program, as I haven't come across any such in the region that are done
                        to the extent of the best practices examples elsewhere.)
                        >
                        > Starbucks buys in "volume." They get cheaper prices as a result.
                        >
                        > E.g., just for a coffee cup to be imprinted at a cost-effective
                        price, I think you have to buy a quantity of 150,000-200,000.
                        >
                        > Even so, when you do a competitive analysis, you do tend to want
                        to set your prices in the range of your competitors (after all that's
                        who your business is compared to, like it or not). If you charge
                        more, it ought to be because you provide a definite difference, i.e.,
                        such as Illy coffee.
                        >
                        > Richard Layman
                        >
                        > cmr2424 <cmr2424@...> wrote:
                        > A fair point, and you're right. To clarify ... my cynicism is
                        > largely from the fact that even these smaller, subsidized set asides
                        > aren't being used for truly "independent" businesses, and they
                        > largely appear to be franchisees of national chains. The
                        > individuals who are running these franchises may very well be local,
                        > but the businesses they are running are not of the "unique to DC"
                        > variety (think Wonderland, CH Coffee, and Gloria's, for instance).
                        > Moreover, I believe the program is as much for minority ownership as
                        > it is for local/independent ownership. According to press reports,
                        > 14 of the 15 spaces available under this program are leased out, and
                        > none of the businesses bear names you wouldn't already recognize.
                        > Certainly, most of them will be reverting some portion of their
                        > profits back to a "corporate" entity by way of a franchise fee,
                        > which means it won't all be staying in the community.
                        >
                        > --- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, "Chris G" <cgoulddc@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm afraid I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to some of the
                        > discussion about
                        > > "big box" stores, except to say that there's plenty of District
                        > residents
                        > > shopping at them and it seems to me that it makes sense to have at
                        > least
                        > > some of them in the District itself so that any tax revenue stays
                        > here
                        > > rather than going to VA or MD.
                        > > Having said that, putting aside the fact that even the smallest
                        > business is
                        > > still a corporate entity (even the individual stalls of a European-
                        > style
                        > > covered market, which would be great, are a sort of corporate
                        > entity), I was
                        > > under the impression that some of the retail space at DC/USA was
                        > to be
                        > > set-aside for local small businesses. In fact, I thought there
                        > was even
                        > > some small amount of cash for those purposes in the financing of
                        > the
                        > > building.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >From: "cmr2424" <cmr2424@>
                        > > >To: columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >Subject: [columbia_heights] Re: About Jon's remark re: Columbia
                        > Heights
                        > > >Coffee
                        > > >Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 14:42:43 -0000
                        > > >
                        > > >I'd agree with this sentiment, and add that CHC's "monopoly" will
                        > > >soon be ended with the arrival of Kudo Beans and, eventually,
                        > > >Starbucks. Market forces will work their magic at that point --
                        > > >those who prefer the independent sip-and-surf, or just don't want
                        > to
                        > > >walk an extra two blocks, will stick with CHC, and Starbucks will
                        > > >draw its usual clientele. And if all else fails, eventually the
                        > > >McDonald's will be selling coffee, too.
                        > > >
                        > > >On a separate note, the thing that strikes me in this Whole Foods
                        > > >discussion is that it's really not about the independents vs. the
                        > > >corporate stores; that moment has passed for the DC USA project,
                        > > >where there are approximately 35,000 square feet of unleased
                        > retail
                        > > >space remaining. The issue is what might (should?) go in that
                        > > >space. I'd suggest that there aren't many -- if any --
                        > independent
                        > > >businesses that are (a) big enough to fill that space (assuming
                        > it's
                        > > >not sub-divided) and (b) able to pay the rent and assume the lease
                        > > >term DC USA probably requires. Unless someone gets radical and
                        > > >proposes a European-style covered market, there will be some
                        > > >corporate entity in that space. Once you get to that point, it's
                        > > >just a matter of consumer preference.
                        > > >
                        > > >Not to say I wouldn't love more independent shops in Columbia
                        > > >Heights generally. But in the context of the DC USA development,
                        > > >the idea that much of anything will be independent is somewhat
                        > > >laughable.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >--- In columbia_heights@yahoogroups.com, Joel <dc_gay_man@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Your comments re: Columbia Heights Coffee are short
                        > > > > sighted. In a pitch to offer customer service, they offer
                        > > > > free internet access along with that cup of coffee.
                        > > > > Therefore, it is a built in expense just like Tryst and
                        > > > > other independent coffee shops. Starbucks charges for that
                        > > > > expense separately and when combined probably is more
                        > > > > expensive than the independent coffee shops.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Perhaps, you are not their ideal customer meaning an
                        > > > > internet using coffee drinker with an independent spirit.
                        > > > > However, that's the total package of that business which is
                        > > > > take it or leave it.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >URL to this page on the web:
                        > > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/columbia_heights/
                        > > >
                        > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
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