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Re: [columbia_heights] RE: Tivoli

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  • Dave McIntire
    Mr. Horning, It might very well be that the members of this group are among the more affluent residents of Columbia Heights with more extensive formal
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 1, 2000
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      Mr. Horning,

      It might very well be that the members of this group are among
      the more affluent residents of Columbia Heights with more
      extensive formal education. However moderate income residents
      most definitely can afford to buy computers. My wife and I have
      two. A computer costs no more than a moderately priced television
      set.

      But that is not what you said in your post. You said "We are
      certainly mindful that those who participate in this e-group
      represent only a small portion of the broad demographic
      diversity- ethnic, socio-economic, and sexual orientation- that
      exists in Columbia Heights". The implications, to me, of that
      statement is quite different and, as I read it, offensive. As you
      know, I wasn't alone in that reaction.

      However I don't see why the particular make up of this group has
      any relevance. The advocates of the Tivoli have never lobbied for
      a restored Tivoli at the expense of a large grocery. That was a
      phony issue perpetuated by, among others, Sharon Robinson, your
      PR person, in the poll taken in front of the Giant on 14th
      Street. The Tivoli advocates have lobbied for good development
      that includes both a large grocery and (!!!) a restored Tivoli.

      According to the latest issue of the Washington Business Journal,
      Horning Bros. has signed an agreement with the Control Board to
      preserve the entire exterior of the Tivoli complex. This is quite
      different than your original plan to demolish everything other
      than wall along 14th St. and the lobby.

      In my opinion, that represents a major change to Horning Brothers
      and Giants insistence that it was impossible to have both the
      entire Tivoli complex and a large Giant on the same lot.

      If Horning Brothers and Giant are now committed to saving the
      Tivoli, why are you once more bringing up that which is
      irrelevant? I, personally, am willing to let bygones be bygones.
      I think most will feel the same. It seems the next order of
      business should be for community representatives, especially
      representatives from Save The Tivoli and other arts and
      preservation groups, to sit down with Horning Bros. and
      collaborate. You are required to do that under the RFP process.
      The Save The Tivoli group has not been idle and there have been
      some positive developments so far as creating a community/arts
      function for a restored building.

      Dave McIntire

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Joseph Horning" <joehorning3@...>


      > Dear Mr. McIntire and the Columbia Heights egroup-
      >
      > I don't know the demographics of this listserve, and didn't
      mean to imply
      > that I did. With regard to economic diversity, I do know that
      many of the
      > moderate income residents of Columbia Heights are probably not
      able to
      > afford a computer, which would naturally preclude their
      participating in
      > this forum.
    • Joseph Horning
      Dear Mr. and Mrs. McIntire and Columbia Heights egroup- Thanks for your responses. Regarding the computer/internet issue- it would, indeed, be marvelous if
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 1, 2000
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        Dear Mr. and Mrs. McIntire and Columbia Heights egroup-

        Thanks for your responses. Regarding the computer/internet issue- it would,
        indeed, be marvelous if every resident of Columbia Heights had the access,
        education, training, and time to participate in discussions about important
        neighborhood issues.

        Regarding Mr. McIntire's accusations- it is not our intention to spread
        mis-information. Mr. Hall's article in the Business Journal is full of
        inaccuracies that he chose to publish without speaking directly with us. Mr.
        Pyatt's in the Post is mostly accurate although not specific about the
        exterior. Horning Brothers has said nothing to denigrate those who would
        like to see the Tivoli fully restored- interior and exterior. Having
        assessed the building with numerous experts, we just don't see how that
        could be economically feasible.

        Regarding the exterior of the Tivoli, our original plan called for the
        restoration of the lobby and ALL of the "Mediterranean style" exterior-
        stucco, cornices, canopy lighting, skylights, ticket booth, tile roof, etc,
        which front 14th Street AND Park Road. We were not going to save the simple
        brick walls on the east and north sides. Nor were we going to save the main
        auditorium. Aside from completely razing the Tivoli, our original proposal
        was, and still is, the most economical way of dealing with the dilapidated
        building without significant public subsidies, which were never an offer of
        the RLA or the Mayor.

        However the building is configured and whatever is saved, restored, or
        replicated, there must be an economic engine to pay for it. Modern,
        neighborhood oriented retail has to be part of the answer. Moreover,
        bringing sustainable economic revitalization to Columbia Heights has always
        been our focus.

        Over the past few months, we have evaluated possible alterations to the site
        plan and the Tivoli, as well as the additional cost of changing our original
        plan and saving the building. The cost is significant.

        Since Mr. Hall's article is incorrect, and the choice of wording by the
        press can be misleading, I want to clarify that "saving the building" does
        *not* mean replicating the entire interior. Our historic architects and
        restoration contractors have estimated that replicating the interior
        historic fabric, much of which is gone- due to the extensive vandalism,
        neglect and water damage that has occurred in the quarter century it has
        lain vacant- would cost $21 million.

        We look forward to meeting with community groups over the coming months and
        continuing the discussion.

        Joseph Horning III
        Horning Brothers
      • Stephen H. Kline
        Mark: Once again you have demonstrated an extraordinary ability to spout venom in ways that are (at least) couterproductive. I do not agree with much of what
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 1, 2000
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          Mark:

          Once again you have demonstrated an extraordinary ability to spout venom in
          ways that are (at least) couterproductive.

          I do not agree with much of what passes for the development philosophy of
          the Horning Group. Nevertheless, your diatribe to in reponse to Joe Horning
          was over the edge.

          Please try to remember that when you speak, you reveal more about yourself
          than you do about the target of your words. Personal attacks are
          inappropriate. Period.

          Stephen Kline

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Mark C. Barlet" <mbarlet@...>
          To: "Joseph Horning" <joehorning3@...>
          Cc: <columbia_heights@egroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:06 PM
          Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] RE: Tivoli


          > Mr. Horning
          >
          > You should really talk to your hired "PR" so she can get her story
          > right.
          >
          > I would like to make a comment about your statement "Moreover,
          > bringing sustainable economic revitalization to Columbia Heights has
          > always been our focus." I have seen what you call "economic
          > revitalization" and I must say, you do not do a very good job at it.
          > Your Strip Mall on 14th is a waste of good brick and cement. The only
          > good thing that came out of it was the success of the Big Wash, and
          > from what I have read, you are looking to stomp them out of CH too.
          >
          > Mr. Horning it is easy to think that you are bring good to an area,
          > lets face it, a hungry man will eat just about anything. Joe,
          > Columbia Heights is missing it's retail hub, but by no means are we
          > hungry, You are just the crumbs of a much bigger and better buffet.
          > We should not take the crumbs when the buffet is in our reach.
          >
          > You have a track record of creating crap. All of Your
          > "Accomplishments" are poor examples of "economic revitalization", all
          > you do is throw a hungry area crumbs. You are not a hero, as you
          > would like to think, you are an opportunist, who takes advantage of
          > hungry people, and then use that "fame" to strong arm the city into
          > keeping work coming your way. I would rather wait 5 years for a real
          > retail center, and a restored Tivoli, and all of the land developed,
          > than have to determine what to do with Horning/Giants row of Nail
          > places, Track Autos, and fast food 5 years from now. Lets do it
          > right, not right now.
          >
          > The Tivoli is not "economically feasible" right now, but it will
          > never be economically feasible if we let you tear 90% of it to the
          > ground. As long as it stands, than restoration will be in it's
          > future, the moment you gut it, we can never ever bring it back. I
          > hope that people that have seen the photos, fight you tooth and nail
          > on this, I hope that Michael Vallen does what he said he would do,
          > and bring this back up with DCCH, and I personaly will strap myself
          > to the door until they arest me, and I think that many other will do
          > the same. Mr. Horning, please take you weak ass "revitalization" and
          > pack of lies somewhere else, Columbia Heights, as a matter of fact
          > D.C. can do better, than the likes of you.
          >
          > Mark
          >
          > __________________________________________________
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          >
        • Mark C. Barlet
          Mr. Horning You should really talk to your hired PR so she can get her story right. I would like to make a comment about your statement Moreover, bringing
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 1, 2000
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            Mr. Horning

            You should really talk to your hired "PR" so she can get her story
            right.

            I would like to make a comment about your statement "Moreover,
            bringing sustainable economic revitalization to Columbia Heights has
            always been our focus." I have seen what you call "economic
            revitalization" and I must say, you do not do a very good job at it.
            Your Strip Mall on 14th is a waste of good brick and cement. The only
            good thing that came out of it was the success of the Big Wash, and
            from what I have read, you are looking to stomp them out of CH too.

            Mr. Horning it is easy to think that you are bring good to an area,
            lets face it, a hungry man will eat just about anything. Joe,
            Columbia Heights is missing it's retail hub, but by no means are we
            hungry, You are just the crumbs of a much bigger and better buffet.
            We should not take the crumbs when the buffet is in our reach.

            You have a track record of creating crap. All of Your
            "Accomplishments" are poor examples of "economic revitalization", all
            you do is throw a hungry area crumbs. You are not a hero, as you
            would like to think, you are an opportunist, who takes advantage of
            hungry people, and then use that "fame" to strong arm the city into
            keeping work coming your way. I would rather wait 5 years for a real
            retail center, and a restored Tivoli, and all of the land developed,
            than have to determine what to do with Horning/Giants row of Nail
            places, Track Autos, and fast food 5 years from now. Lets do it
            right, not right now.

            The Tivoli is not "economically feasible" right now, but it will
            never be economically feasible if we let you tear 90% of it to the
            ground. As long as it stands, than restoration will be in it's
            future, the moment you gut it, we can never ever bring it back. I
            hope that people that have seen the photos, fight you tooth and nail
            on this, I hope that Michael Vallen does what he said he would do,
            and bring this back up with DCCH, and I personaly will strap myself
            to the door until they arest me, and I think that many other will do
            the same. Mr. Horning, please take you weak ass "revitalization" and
            pack of lies somewhere else, Columbia Heights, as a matter of fact
            D.C. can do better, than the likes of you.

            Mark

            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
            http://im.yahoo.com/
          • Mark C. Barlet
            Joe and the group, I am sorry for flying off the handle, I get very upset, sometimes. Please forgive me. We have a great treasure in out very own neighborhood,
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 1, 2000
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              Joe and the group,


              I am sorry for flying off the handle, I get very upset, sometimes.
              Please forgive me.

              We have a great treasure in out very own neighborhood, and we need
              to work with Horning to return that treasure to the community, while
              still making it work for Horning as well.

              Lets hope We can stop finger pointing (I know I am guilty) and work
              together to make sure that future generation can enjoy the theater
              again.

              Mark Barlet

              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
              http://im.yahoo.com/
            • Dahmus Paul
              Joseph Horning, You said that we have evaluated possible alterations to the site plan and the Tivoli, as well as the additional cost of changing our original
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 2, 2000
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                Joseph Horning,
                You said that "we have evaluated possible alterations to the site
                plan and the Tivoli, as well as the additional cost of changing our original
                plan and saving the building. The cost is significant."

                Giant has said, and please correct me if I am wrong, that they would donate
                the existing Giant on 14th Street to the community for meetings and the
                like. Well it would seem to me that if Giant would sell the existing Giant
                to another retailer and put that money to renovating the inside of Tivoli
                where it could then be used for community gatherings then everybody would
                make out. The community would have more retail stores and a fully restored
                Tivoli and Giant could have a new store. Your thoughts please.

                Paul Dahmus

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Joseph Horning [mailto:joehorning3@...]
                Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 5:45 PM
                To: 'Dave McIntire'
                Cc: columbia_heights@egroups.com
                Subject: RE: [columbia_heights] RE: Tivoli


                Dear Mr. and Mrs. McIntire and Columbia Heights egroup-

                Thanks for your responses. Regarding the computer/internet issue- it would,
                indeed, be marvelous if every resident of Columbia Heights had the access,
                education, training, and time to participate in discussions about important
                neighborhood issues.

                Regarding Mr. McIntire's accusations- it is not our intention to spread
                mis-information. Mr. Hall's article in the Business Journal is full of
                inaccuracies that he chose to publish without speaking directly with us. Mr.
                Pyatt's in the Post is mostly accurate although not specific about the
                exterior. Horning Brothers has said nothing to denigrate those who would
                like to see the Tivoli fully restored- interior and exterior. Having
                assessed the building with numerous experts, we just don't see how that
                could be economically feasible.

                Regarding the exterior of the Tivoli, our original plan called for the
                restoration of the lobby and ALL of the "Mediterranean style" exterior-
                stucco, cornices, canopy lighting, skylights, ticket booth, tile roof, etc,
                which front 14th Street AND Park Road. We were not going to save the simple
                brick walls on the east and north sides. Nor were we going to save the main
                auditorium. Aside from completely razing the Tivoli, our original proposal
                was, and still is, the most economical way of dealing with the dilapidated
                building without significant public subsidies, which were never an offer of
                the RLA or the Mayor.

                However the building is configured and whatever is saved, restored, or
                replicated, there must be an economic engine to pay for it. Modern,
                neighborhood oriented retail has to be part of the answer. Moreover,
                bringing sustainable economic revitalization to Columbia Heights has always
                been our focus.

                Over the past few months, we have evaluated possible alterations to the site
                plan and the Tivoli, as well as the additional cost of changing our original
                plan and saving the building. The cost is significant.

                Since Mr. Hall's article is incorrect, and the choice of wording by the
                press can be misleading, I want to clarify that "saving the building" does
                *not* mean replicating the entire interior. Our historic architects and
                restoration contractors have estimated that replicating the interior
                historic fabric, much of which is gone- due to the extensive vandalism,
                neglect and water damage that has occurred in the quarter century it has
                lain vacant- would cost $21 million.

                We look forward to meeting with community groups over the coming months and
                continuing the discussion.

                Joseph Horning III
                Horning Brothers






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              • Dave McIntire
                ... From: Joseph Horning ... MR. HORNING WRITES: Thanks for your responses. Regarding the computer/internet issue- it would, indeed,
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 2, 2000
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Joseph Horning" <joehorning3@...>


                  > Dear Mr. and Mrs. McIntire and Columbia Heights egroup-

                  MR. HORNING WRITES:
                  Thanks for your responses. Regarding the computer/internet issue-
                  it would, indeed, be marvelous if every resident of Columbia
                  Heights had the access, education, training, and time to
                  participate in discussions about important neighborhood issues.

                  I REPLY:
                  I agree. It would be marvelous. One of the alternatives that
                  Forest City had for the Tivoli was to use part of it for a high
                  tech center which would be shared with the community. Perhaps you
                  might think of doing something similar.

                  MR. HORNING WRITES:

                  Mr. Pyatt's in the Post is mostly accurate although not specific
                  about the exterior. Horning Brothers has said nothing to
                  denigrate those who would like to see the Tivoli fully restored-
                  interior and exterior. Having assessed the building with
                  numerous experts, we just don't see how that
                  could be economically feasible.

                  Regarding the exterior of the Tivoli, our original plan called
                  for the restoration of the lobby and ALL of the "Mediterranean
                  style" exterior- stucco, cornices, canopy lighting, skylights,
                  ticket booth, tile roof, etc, which front 14th Street AND Park
                  Road. We were not going to save the simple
                  brick walls on the east and north sides. Nor were we going to
                  save the main auditorium. Aside from completely razing the
                  Tivoli, our original proposal was, and still is, the most
                  economical way of dealing with the dilapidated building without
                  significant public subsidies, which were never an offer of the
                  RLA or the Mayor.

                  I REPLY:

                  Mr. Pyatt's article said: "Mayor Anthony A. Williams then stepped
                  in and declared his opposition to District-based Horning Bros.'s
                  plan, which originally called for removal of the Tivoli's rear
                  wall to allow for construction of the supermarket and several
                  smaller retail stores. ....Horning Bros. and other members of the
                  development team--Fort Lincoln Realty and Giant--basically agreed
                  to preserve the Tivoli's exterior by not removing the wall."

                  That is quite specific and it is not accurate. I said that your
                  original proposal was to save the 14th St. wall and lobby. The
                  lobby is on Park Rd. and people are smart enough to know that
                  entails saving that wall as well. So you and I are saying the
                  same thing and it is quite different than what Mr. Pyatt wrote.

                  It might seem a small point but it is important because the
                  thrust of Mr. Pyatt's article is that preservationists are being
                  obstructionist. Preservationists rejected Horning Bros. plan, not
                  simply because one brick wall would be destroyed. They objected
                  because what you were proposing was basically a "facadomy".

                  Furthermore, no preservationist organization has ever proposed
                  that the developer be financially responsible for redoing the
                  interior of the stage and auditorium so that it could be used for
                  performing arts once more. Under the Forest City proposal that
                  was to be the responsibility of an arts consortium.

                  So I don't see why you keep saying that you can't afford to do
                  it. No organization has asked you to. The question is, now that
                  you must save the entire complex, whether Horning Bros. is
                  sincerely willing to co-operate, callaborate, etc. with groups
                  that are working on finding funding and sponsorship for an arts
                  center. Of course, no one has approached you heretofore because
                  you were going to destroy the auditorium and stage area.

                  I gather from the thrust of your messages is that the answer is
                  no. I hope I am mistaken in that impression.

                  Your real problems lie not with preservationists but with the
                  piecemeal and delayed development on the other parcels. We both
                  know that Grid is unlikely to be able to perform under the
                  agreement. Pyatt intimates the same in his article. The other two
                  parcels have no developers.

                  A goal of the charrette and its advocates was to avoid piecemeal
                  development. That effort failed because of RLA. Now you are faced
                  with the same problems you have had with the Nehemiah Center - a
                  small isolated retail center that, in itself, will not attract
                  casual shoppers. People will just come there to buy groceries and
                  go home. Giant will succeed but, in my opinion, you are going to
                  have difficulties. But it is your money, not mine.

                  Again, in my opinion, you will be making it worse if you continue
                  to offend what could be some of your best customers for retail
                  offerings. I think that you should let it be known, loud and
                  clear, that you want to co-operate with preservationists

                  Dave McIntire
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