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Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: any info on New Orleans Bell South Bldg...

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  • Gregory W. Moore
    GA, Mike, et al of the group... I hope that I am not being too off the wall here, but I would presume, that we have had some reorganization of policy since
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
      GA, Mike, et al of the group...
      I hope that I am not being too off the wall here, but I would presume,
      that we have had some "reorganization" of policy since the terrorist
      attacks of 9/11, especially when it comes to the use of military
      response. Personally, in this case, as in many cases since that
      horrific date, I do not find this to be a bad thing..... If one can
      believe one iota of what was being reported in regards to looting (I am
      not talking about survivors trying to get basic life support necessities
      here, I am talking about "roving bands" of looting thugs, takingmaterial
      which couldn't be made to work in a city with a dead infrastructure (
      electronics, luxury items, etc), and the deliberate setting of fires,
      assaulting other survivors,etc, as seems to happen with great
      "cooincidence" in most looting situations, as well as the random gunfire
      at rescue personnel, would, to me, demand response in kind. OK, I have
      absolutely NO way of proving the veracity of these reports, and knowing
      the propensity of the MSM to follow the "If it Bleeds, it Leads" maxim,
      ad infinitum, with the addition of the multiple hearsay component of
      any of these "looting" or "atrocity" stories, which will inevitably
      surface in a disaster situation, If I were to be placed in charge I
      would sure as all hell have issued orders to make sure any looters,
      rioters, assaulters, and random shooters were dealt with in a rather
      sudden and permanent fashion, with extreme predjudice.. Nothing
      personal, that's the way it's done..in the real world.

      While I have tremendous respect for the Posse Comitatus Act, as well as
      Strict Constitutional interpretation, I feel that if things go pear
      shaped, then you darn well have to think on the spot..... If you have a
      valuable comm center, that absolutely has to be protected, and wasn't
      flooded beyond repair, then it would behoove the powers that be to
      provide a maximum show of force. Any major communication hub, today, is
      a Homeland Security asset, and should be protected as such..

      In the halcyon days of the cold war, often we protected these assets by
      hiding them in plain sight, as (at the time) we felt that our enemies
      were external. Sadly. all that has now changed, forever. Terrorism is
      bad enough to defend against, but Terrorism, combined with political
      correctness of not being able to name one's enemy is even worse. This
      is the state we have now reached.

      Posse Comitatus? Sure, but I do believe it has been trumped by Homeland
      Security, and the Patriot Act. We might not like it, we might not agree
      with it, but unfortunately, there it is, and for the future, it's the
      best we have to protect against those who would destroy us.

      As far as the Bell South Bldg, and the infrastructure which presumably
      has remained intact, well. IMHO protect it with any and all force deemed
      necessary, military or civilian, to prevent entry, looting, and the
      inevitible vandalism which would occur if such a building were left
      unguarded. Yes, it's a sad commentary on the state of todays society,
      but a true one.......

      OK, < / rant> feel free to flame at will (huge evil grin)

      Greg "GW" Moore
      Cold Warrior Communicator and proud to be one ;-)

      (Hot War Communicator as well --hi--)

      Mike Magnus wrote:

      > Then this statement from
      > http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm is
      > incorrect?
      >
      >
      > "To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is
      > important to understand to whom the act applies and under what
      > circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all
      > U.S. military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
      > Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it
      > does not apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
      > manpower resources of the National Guard."
      >
      > From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>
      >
      >
      > > Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...
      >

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kenneth Coney
      There are a whole bunch of statements in the web link you posted. Some are true, at least one is wrong according to web link at
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
        There are a whole bunch of statements in the web link you posted. Some
        are true, at least one is wrong according to web link at
        http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+696+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281385%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
        (which I trust as the Congress are indeed the ones who write the law),
        and some of his statements subject to interpretation.

        "The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S. military
        forces.[2] <#_edn2> While the act applies to the Army, Air Force, Navy,
        and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not apply to
        the Coast Guard or to the huge military manpower resources of the
        National Guard.[3] <#_edn3>" is a bizarre mixed statement. The
        references at the bottom of his page 1) contains the same language as
        the link I point to above, 2) says "The act as originally passed
        referenced only limitations upon the Army. After World War II, it was
        amended to include the Air Force. By DoD Directive 5525.5, the
        limitations of the act have been administratively adopted to apply to
        the Navy and Marine Corps as well." while 3) says, "The peacetime law
        enforcement mission of the Coast Guard has been well recognized since
        the founding of its parent agency, the Revenue Marine, in 1790." How he
        twists that to include the Navy and the Marines into the Posse
        Commitatus Act is perhaps best explained by his statement "the
        limitations of the act have been administratively adopted to apply to
        the Navy and Marine Corps as well." An administrative adaptation of a
        law or rule by a military commander or a temporary secretary (all agency
        heads are temporary four year appointments and anything they say or
        decision they make can easily be reversed by the next one) is a long,
        long, way from truthfully saying "while the Act applies to ..., Navy and
        Marines..." Indeed the '99 shooting incident he describes (the boy is
        believed to have been shooting at what he thought was a rabbit or a
        badger versus a cammied Marine laying prone among the brush) arose
        specifically out of a decision to toss that adaptation for the Marine
        Corps into the trash can, where it perhaps belonged as Congress knew of
        a Navy and a Marine Corps when they wrote the original statute but
        instead originally chose to allow such law enforcement action by those
        same organizations.



        Mike Magnus wrote:

        >Then this statement from http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm is incorrect?
        >
        >
        >"To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is important to understand to whom the act applies and under what
        >circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S. military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
        >Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
        >manpower resources of the National Guard."
        >
        >From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...
        >>
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        >Yahoo! Groups Links
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      • David Lesher
        Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered: The Posse Comitatas issue is less then simple. ISTM as passed, it applied to the Army, but NOT the
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
          Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:


          The Posse Comitatas issue is less then simple. ISTM as passed,
          it applied to the Army, but NOT the Marines or obviously the
          Air Force. They were later added by administrative regulation.

          The Marines were exempted originally since they predated the
          Continental Congress, as I recall. {Note the US Marshals also
          have fewer constraints that FBI/USSS/BATF/etc by virtue of
          age...}

          The USCG is NOT subject; they are chartered as a LEA with arrest
          power. That's why when the Navy helps nab someone at sea; there's
          often a Coastie along to say the magic words.

          A friend was an Army CID investigator and I don't recall how he got
          his arrest power -- one trick was to swear folks in as Marshals
          as well as in Army CID. I'll ask him.





          --
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        • Allan Bourdius
          I don t mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization: 1) The web address of
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
            I don't mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States
            Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization:

            1) The web address of www.uscg.mil is an easy indicator.

            2) The USCG FAQ at http://www.gocoastguard.com/faq.html says right at
            the top: "The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the U.S.
            Armed Forces..."

            3) The Coast Guard falls under the Uniform Code of Military Justice
            like the other services, uses the same Manual for Courts Martial as
            the other services. (10 USC A.II.47)

            4) Coast Guardsmen are part of the all-service honor guard that is
            present at major state functions, such as Presidential funerals. If
            you look back at the casket team during President Reagan's funeral
            last year, there were 2 Soldiers, 2 Marines, 2 Airmen, 1 Sailor, and 1
            Coast Guardsman on the unit. (Sometimes there might have been 2
            Sailors and 1 Airman, but there was always a Coastie there to make the
            grand total of 8)

            5) I seem to remember that when I was sworn in to the USMCR as I
            joined the PLC OCS program that there were a bunch of future Coast
            Guard members in the same bunch as I - recruits for all 5 services,
            all taking the same oath...

            I could go on...

            Allan

            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
            > Complete truth. They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland. I
            have
            > no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in
            Posse
            > Comitatas.
            >
            > Bill Smith wrote:
            >
            > >Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
            > >
            > >
          • Kenneth Coney
            We are indeed off topic, but the Coast Guard is the second oldest service. (The US Watch or Federal Building Guards are the oldest.) The Coast Guard is
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
              We are indeed off topic, but the Coast Guard is the second oldest
              service. (The US Watch or Federal Building Guards are the oldest.) The
              Coast Guard is classified as a civilian law enforcement agency in time
              of peace, no matter who rents them their web portal. For decades they
              came under Transportation as did the Merchant Marine (which also comes
              under Navy control in time of declared war). These days the Coast Guard
              is normally a branch of Homeland Security. In time of declared war,
              then they become part of the Navy, but they retain their powers of
              arrest. (No Posse Commitatus issue as neither the Coast Guard nor the
              Navy are in that statute.)


              Allan Bourdius wrote:

              >I don't mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States
              >Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization:
              >
              >1) The web address of www.uscg.mil is an easy indicator.
              >
              >2) The USCG FAQ at http://www.gocoastguard.com/faq.html says right at
              >the top: "The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the U.S.
              >Armed Forces..."
              >
              >3) The Coast Guard falls under the Uniform Code of Military Justice
              >like the other services, uses the same Manual for Courts Martial as
              >the other services. (10 USC A.II.47)
              >
              >4) Coast Guardsmen are part of the all-service honor guard that is
              >present at major state functions, such as Presidential funerals. If
              >you look back at the casket team during President Reagan's funeral
              >last year, there were 2 Soldiers, 2 Marines, 2 Airmen, 1 Sailor, and 1
              >Coast Guardsman on the unit. (Sometimes there might have been 2
              >Sailors and 1 Airman, but there was always a Coastie there to make the
              >grand total of 8)
              >
              >5) I seem to remember that when I was sworn in to the USMCR as I
              >joined the PLC OCS program that there were a bunch of future Coast
              >Guard members in the same bunch as I - recruits for all 5 services,
              >all taking the same oath...
              >
              >I could go on...
              >
              >Allan
              >
              >--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>Complete truth. They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland. I
              >>
              >>
              >have
              >
              >
              >>no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in
              >>
              >>
              >Posse
              >
              >
              >>Comitatas.
              >>
              >>Bill Smith wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
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            • paul rosa
              Regarding the New Orleans telecom situation, last night I was watching a BBC News segment about the situation. They filmed a large contingent of military
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 8, 2005
                Regarding the New Orleans telecom situation, last night I was watching a
                BBC News segment about the situation. They filmed a large contingent of
                military forces and police SWAT teams that were about to launch a search
                and destroy mission in a ppublic housing complex there, then went along
                with them as they moved door-to-door. The reason for the mission?
                Techicians were trying to get a Sprint cell site at that locale back in
                service. Every time they would try to climb the tower, snipers would
                open fire. So the mission was to take out the snipers because
                restoration of communications was of extraordinary importance. This
                huge show of force makes the modest security by Bell South to protect
                the fuel for its generators look pretty tame.

                Paul Rosa
                Harpers Ferry, WV

                Bill Smith wrote:

                >Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
                >
                >Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC 1385) does *NOT* in any way prohibit the
                >use of the Navy or the Marines for law enforcement, nor does it mention
                >the Coast Guard. Even the prohibitions against the usage of the Army or
                >
                >
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                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
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                >Yahoo! Groups Links
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              • Blake Bowers
                In order to have state arrest authority, investigators and flight leaders in the Air Force were often sworn in as State Law Enforcement. At times, the on duty
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 8, 2005
                  In order to have state arrest authority, investigators and flight leaders
                  in the Air Force were often sworn in as State Law Enforcement.

                  At times, the on duty investigator would have to be called in,
                  just to say the magic words after hours.


                  > A friend was an Army CID investigator and I don't recall how he got
                  > his arrest power -- one trick was to swear folks in as Marshals
                  > as well as in Army CID. I'll ask him.
                  >
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