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Re: any info on New Orleans Bell South Bldg...

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  • wwcasey
    The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prevents any Federal military unit (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, with certain exceptions, Coast Guard, and the National
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 6, 2005
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      The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prevents any Federal military unit
      (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, with certain exceptions, Coast Guard,
      and the National Guard once they have been federalized) from being
      used in law enforcement. However, it does not prevent them from
      securing federal installations or other installations vital to
      national interests. There were several reports that immediately after
      Katrina passed (and before the levee breached) that a number of
      installations in New Orleans had been secured. I would assume these to
      be vital communications, DEA, FBI, Federal Court, Federal Reserve, and
      other similar installations.

      As for the black masks, that one I don't know about.

      Walt

      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Spencer <slholcom@p...> wrote:
      > They aren't traveling under "color of authority", they ARE authority.
      >
      >
      > MA BELL is back, and boy is she pissed!
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kenneth Coney
      The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC 1385) does *NOT* in any way prohibit the use of the Navy or the Marines for law enforcement, nor does it mention the Coast
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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        The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC 1385) does *NOT* in any way prohibit the
        use of the Navy or the Marines for law enforcement, nor does it mention
        the Coast Guard. Even the prohibitions against the usage of the Army or
        Air Force contain a broad "weasel clause" which would at first glance be
        fully met by the Stafford Act (ie if FEMA or the Presdent declare an
        emergency of national significance).
        The Posse Comitatus Act can be found at
        http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+696+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281385%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20


        wwcasey wrote:

        >The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 prevents any Federal military unit
        >(Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, with certain exceptions, Coast Guard,
        >and the National Guard once they have been federalized) from being
        >used in law enforcement. However, it does not prevent them from
        >securing federal installations or other installations vital to
        >national interests. There were several reports that immediately after
        >Katrina passed (and before the levee breached) that a number of
        >installations in New Orleans had been secured. I would assume these to
        >be vital communications, DEA, FBI, Federal Court, Federal Reserve, and
        >other similar installations.
        >
        >As for the black masks, that one I don't know about.
        >
        >Walt
        >
        >--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Spencer <slholcom@p...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >>They aren't traveling under "color of authority", they ARE authority.
        >>
        >>
        >>MA BELL is back, and boy is she pissed!
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >>
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        >Yahoo! Groups Links
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      • Spencer
        The fact that this item has nothing to do with coldwar.com (other than it s an AT&T/Bellsouth hub) is one thing. I for one don t care if the building is
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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          The fact that this item has nothing to do with "coldwar.com" (other than it's an AT&T/Bellsouth hub) is one thing. I for one don't care if the building is protected by local law enforcement, the FBI, a fully outfitted U S Air FORCE wing, or a retired guard from AT&T's Sandia Corp. with an old atomic warhead. Are you really upset their protecting the building and its functions?


          MA BELL is back, and boy is she pissed!



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bill Smith
          Isn t the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization? Kenneth Coney wrote:The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC 1385) does *NOT* in
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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            Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?

            Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC 1385) does *NOT* in any way prohibit the
            use of the Navy or the Marines for law enforcement, nor does it mention
            the Coast Guard. Even the prohibitions against the usage of the Army or


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          • Kenneth Coney
            Complete truth. They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland. I have no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in Posse Comitatas.
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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              Complete truth. They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland. I have
              no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in Posse
              Comitatas.

              Bill Smith wrote:

              >Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
              >
              >
            • thomasbmoran@netscape.net
              In time of war the Coast Guard comes under the Navy, as it did in WW2. TBMoran ... __________________________________________________________________ Switch to
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                In time of war the Coast Guard comes under the Navy, as it did in WW2.

                TBMoran


                Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:

                >Complete truth.  They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland.  I have
                >no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in Posse
                >Comitatas.
                >
                >Bill Smith wrote:
                >
                >>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
                >>  
                >>
                >
                >

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              • Kenneth Coney
                Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either, so why would someone assume the Coast Guard was?
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                  Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either, so why
                  would someone assume the Coast Guard was?

                  thomasbmoran@... wrote:

                  >In time of war the Coast Guard comes under the Navy, as it did in WW2.
                  >
                  >TBMoran
                  >
                  >
                  >Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>Complete truth. They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland. I have
                  >>no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in Posse
                  >>Comitatas.
                  >>
                  >>Bill Smith wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >__________________________________________________________________
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                • Mike Magnus
                  Then this statement from http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm is incorrect? To understand the extent to which the act has
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                    Then this statement from http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm is incorrect?


                    "To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is important to understand to whom the act applies and under what
                    circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S. military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
                    Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
                    manpower resources of the National Guard."

                    From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>


                    > Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...
                  • Gregory W. Moore
                    GA, Mike, et al of the group... I hope that I am not being too off the wall here, but I would presume, that we have had some reorganization of policy since
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                      GA, Mike, et al of the group...
                      I hope that I am not being too off the wall here, but I would presume,
                      that we have had some "reorganization" of policy since the terrorist
                      attacks of 9/11, especially when it comes to the use of military
                      response. Personally, in this case, as in many cases since that
                      horrific date, I do not find this to be a bad thing..... If one can
                      believe one iota of what was being reported in regards to looting (I am
                      not talking about survivors trying to get basic life support necessities
                      here, I am talking about "roving bands" of looting thugs, takingmaterial
                      which couldn't be made to work in a city with a dead infrastructure (
                      electronics, luxury items, etc), and the deliberate setting of fires,
                      assaulting other survivors,etc, as seems to happen with great
                      "cooincidence" in most looting situations, as well as the random gunfire
                      at rescue personnel, would, to me, demand response in kind. OK, I have
                      absolutely NO way of proving the veracity of these reports, and knowing
                      the propensity of the MSM to follow the "If it Bleeds, it Leads" maxim,
                      ad infinitum, with the addition of the multiple hearsay component of
                      any of these "looting" or "atrocity" stories, which will inevitably
                      surface in a disaster situation, If I were to be placed in charge I
                      would sure as all hell have issued orders to make sure any looters,
                      rioters, assaulters, and random shooters were dealt with in a rather
                      sudden and permanent fashion, with extreme predjudice.. Nothing
                      personal, that's the way it's done..in the real world.

                      While I have tremendous respect for the Posse Comitatus Act, as well as
                      Strict Constitutional interpretation, I feel that if things go pear
                      shaped, then you darn well have to think on the spot..... If you have a
                      valuable comm center, that absolutely has to be protected, and wasn't
                      flooded beyond repair, then it would behoove the powers that be to
                      provide a maximum show of force. Any major communication hub, today, is
                      a Homeland Security asset, and should be protected as such..

                      In the halcyon days of the cold war, often we protected these assets by
                      hiding them in plain sight, as (at the time) we felt that our enemies
                      were external. Sadly. all that has now changed, forever. Terrorism is
                      bad enough to defend against, but Terrorism, combined with political
                      correctness of not being able to name one's enemy is even worse. This
                      is the state we have now reached.

                      Posse Comitatus? Sure, but I do believe it has been trumped by Homeland
                      Security, and the Patriot Act. We might not like it, we might not agree
                      with it, but unfortunately, there it is, and for the future, it's the
                      best we have to protect against those who would destroy us.

                      As far as the Bell South Bldg, and the infrastructure which presumably
                      has remained intact, well. IMHO protect it with any and all force deemed
                      necessary, military or civilian, to prevent entry, looting, and the
                      inevitible vandalism which would occur if such a building were left
                      unguarded. Yes, it's a sad commentary on the state of todays society,
                      but a true one.......

                      OK, < / rant> feel free to flame at will (huge evil grin)

                      Greg "GW" Moore
                      Cold Warrior Communicator and proud to be one ;-)

                      (Hot War Communicator as well --hi--)

                      Mike Magnus wrote:

                      > Then this statement from
                      > http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm is
                      > incorrect?
                      >
                      >
                      > "To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is
                      > important to understand to whom the act applies and under what
                      > circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all
                      > U.S. military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
                      > Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it
                      > does not apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
                      > manpower resources of the National Guard."
                      >
                      > From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>
                      >
                      >
                      > > Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...
                      >

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                    • Kenneth Coney
                      There are a whole bunch of statements in the web link you posted. Some are true, at least one is wrong according to web link at
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                        There are a whole bunch of statements in the web link you posted. Some
                        are true, at least one is wrong according to web link at
                        http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+696+0++%28%29%20%20AND%20%28%2818%29%20ADJ%20USC%29%3ACITE%20AND%20%28USC%20w%2F10%20%281385%29%29%3ACITE%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20
                        (which I trust as the Congress are indeed the ones who write the law),
                        and some of his statements subject to interpretation.

                        "The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S. military
                        forces.[2] <#_edn2> While the act applies to the Army, Air Force, Navy,
                        and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not apply to
                        the Coast Guard or to the huge military manpower resources of the
                        National Guard.[3] <#_edn3>" is a bizarre mixed statement. The
                        references at the bottom of his page 1) contains the same language as
                        the link I point to above, 2) says "The act as originally passed
                        referenced only limitations upon the Army. After World War II, it was
                        amended to include the Air Force. By DoD Directive 5525.5, the
                        limitations of the act have been administratively adopted to apply to
                        the Navy and Marine Corps as well." while 3) says, "The peacetime law
                        enforcement mission of the Coast Guard has been well recognized since
                        the founding of its parent agency, the Revenue Marine, in 1790." How he
                        twists that to include the Navy and the Marines into the Posse
                        Commitatus Act is perhaps best explained by his statement "the
                        limitations of the act have been administratively adopted to apply to
                        the Navy and Marine Corps as well." An administrative adaptation of a
                        law or rule by a military commander or a temporary secretary (all agency
                        heads are temporary four year appointments and anything they say or
                        decision they make can easily be reversed by the next one) is a long,
                        long, way from truthfully saying "while the Act applies to ..., Navy and
                        Marines..." Indeed the '99 shooting incident he describes (the boy is
                        believed to have been shooting at what he thought was a rabbit or a
                        badger versus a cammied Marine laying prone among the brush) arose
                        specifically out of a decision to toss that adaptation for the Marine
                        Corps into the trash can, where it perhaps belonged as Congress knew of
                        a Navy and a Marine Corps when they wrote the original statute but
                        instead originally chose to allow such law enforcement action by those
                        same organizations.



                        Mike Magnus wrote:

                        >Then this statement from http://www.homelandsecurity.org/journal/articles/Trebilcock.htm is incorrect?
                        >
                        >
                        >"To understand the extent to which the act has relevance today, it is important to understand to whom the act applies and under what
                        >circumstances. The statutory language of the act does not apply to all U.S. military forces.[2] While the act applies to the Army,
                        >Air Force, Navy, and Marines, including their Reserve components, it does not apply to the Coast Guard or to the huge military
                        >manpower resources of the National Guard."
                        >
                        >From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>Yes but the Navy is not affected by Posse Commitatus either...
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                      • David Lesher
                        Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered: The Posse Comitatas issue is less then simple. ISTM as passed, it applied to the Army, but NOT the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                          Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:


                          The Posse Comitatas issue is less then simple. ISTM as passed,
                          it applied to the Army, but NOT the Marines or obviously the
                          Air Force. They were later added by administrative regulation.

                          The Marines were exempted originally since they predated the
                          Continental Congress, as I recall. {Note the US Marshals also
                          have fewer constraints that FBI/USSS/BATF/etc by virtue of
                          age...}

                          The USCG is NOT subject; they are chartered as a LEA with arrest
                          power. That's why when the Navy helps nab someone at sea; there's
                          often a Coastie along to say the magic words.

                          A friend was an Army CID investigator and I don't recall how he got
                          his arrest power -- one trick was to swear folks in as Marshals
                          as well as in Army CID. I'll ask him.





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                        • Allan Bourdius
                          I don t mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization: 1) The web address of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                            I don't mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States
                            Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization:

                            1) The web address of www.uscg.mil is an easy indicator.

                            2) The USCG FAQ at http://www.gocoastguard.com/faq.html says right at
                            the top: "The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the U.S.
                            Armed Forces..."

                            3) The Coast Guard falls under the Uniform Code of Military Justice
                            like the other services, uses the same Manual for Courts Martial as
                            the other services. (10 USC A.II.47)

                            4) Coast Guardsmen are part of the all-service honor guard that is
                            present at major state functions, such as Presidential funerals. If
                            you look back at the casket team during President Reagan's funeral
                            last year, there were 2 Soldiers, 2 Marines, 2 Airmen, 1 Sailor, and 1
                            Coast Guardsman on the unit. (Sometimes there might have been 2
                            Sailors and 1 Airman, but there was always a Coastie there to make the
                            grand total of 8)

                            5) I seem to remember that when I was sworn in to the USMCR as I
                            joined the PLC OCS program that there were a bunch of future Coast
                            Guard members in the same bunch as I - recruits for all 5 services,
                            all taking the same oath...

                            I could go on...

                            Allan

                            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
                            > Complete truth. They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland. I
                            have
                            > no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in
                            Posse
                            > Comitatas.
                            >
                            > Bill Smith wrote:
                            >
                            > >Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
                            > >
                            > >
                          • Kenneth Coney
                            We are indeed off topic, but the Coast Guard is the second oldest service. (The US Watch or Federal Building Guards are the oldest.) The Coast Guard is
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 7, 2005
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                              We are indeed off topic, but the Coast Guard is the second oldest
                              service. (The US Watch or Federal Building Guards are the oldest.) The
                              Coast Guard is classified as a civilian law enforcement agency in time
                              of peace, no matter who rents them their web portal. For decades they
                              came under Transportation as did the Merchant Marine (which also comes
                              under Navy control in time of declared war). These days the Coast Guard
                              is normally a branch of Homeland Security. In time of declared war,
                              then they become part of the Navy, but they retain their powers of
                              arrest. (No Posse Commitatus issue as neither the Coast Guard nor the
                              Navy are in that statute.)


                              Allan Bourdius wrote:

                              >I don't mean to be prolonging an OT discussion, but the United States
                              >Coast Guard is most definitely a military organization:
                              >
                              >1) The web address of www.uscg.mil is an easy indicator.
                              >
                              >2) The USCG FAQ at http://www.gocoastguard.com/faq.html says right at
                              >the top: "The U.S. Coast Guard is one of five branches of the U.S.
                              >Armed Forces..."
                              >
                              >3) The Coast Guard falls under the Uniform Code of Military Justice
                              >like the other services, uses the same Manual for Courts Martial as
                              >the other services. (10 USC A.II.47)
                              >
                              >4) Coast Guardsmen are part of the all-service honor guard that is
                              >present at major state functions, such as Presidential funerals. If
                              >you look back at the casket team during President Reagan's funeral
                              >last year, there were 2 Soldiers, 2 Marines, 2 Airmen, 1 Sailor, and 1
                              >Coast Guardsman on the unit. (Sometimes there might have been 2
                              >Sailors and 1 Airman, but there was always a Coastie there to make the
                              >grand total of 8)
                              >
                              >5) I seem to remember that when I was sworn in to the USMCR as I
                              >joined the PLC OCS program that there were a bunch of future Coast
                              >Guard members in the same bunch as I - recruits for all 5 services,
                              >all taking the same oath...
                              >
                              >I could go on...
                              >
                              >Allan
                              >
                              >--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >>Complete truth. They are a civilian LE agency under Homeland. I
                              >>
                              >>
                              >have
                              >
                              >
                              >>no idea why someone would presume they were somehow included in
                              >>
                              >>
                              >Posse
                              >
                              >
                              >>Comitatas.
                              >>
                              >>Bill Smith wrote:
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>>Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>>
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                            • paul rosa
                              Regarding the New Orleans telecom situation, last night I was watching a BBC News segment about the situation. They filmed a large contingent of military
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                Regarding the New Orleans telecom situation, last night I was watching a
                                BBC News segment about the situation. They filmed a large contingent of
                                military forces and police SWAT teams that were about to launch a search
                                and destroy mission in a ppublic housing complex there, then went along
                                with them as they moved door-to-door. The reason for the mission?
                                Techicians were trying to get a Sprint cell site at that locale back in
                                service. Every time they would try to climb the tower, snipers would
                                open fire. So the mission was to take out the snipers because
                                restoration of communications was of extraordinary importance. This
                                huge show of force makes the modest security by Bell South to protect
                                the fuel for its generators look pretty tame.

                                Paul Rosa
                                Harpers Ferry, WV

                                Bill Smith wrote:

                                >Isn't the Coast Guard considered NOT a military organization?
                                >
                                >Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:The Posse Comitatus Act (18 USC 1385) does *NOT* in any way prohibit the
                                >use of the Navy or the Marines for law enforcement, nor does it mention
                                >the Coast Guard. Even the prohibitions against the usage of the Army or
                                >
                                >
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                                >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                              • Blake Bowers
                                In order to have state arrest authority, investigators and flight leaders in the Air Force were often sworn in as State Law Enforcement. At times, the on duty
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 8, 2005
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                                  In order to have state arrest authority, investigators and flight leaders
                                  in the Air Force were often sworn in as State Law Enforcement.

                                  At times, the on duty investigator would have to be called in,
                                  just to say the magic words after hours.


                                  > A friend was an Army CID investigator and I don't recall how he got
                                  > his arrest power -- one trick was to swear folks in as Marshals
                                  > as well as in Army CID. I'll ask him.
                                  >
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