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Re: [coldwarcomms] Hains Points - National Missile Defense

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  • paul rosa
    Though one Humvee-mounted stinger array (Avenger?) is mounted atop on architectural facade near the White House, others are in plain view. For instance, when
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
      Though one Humvee-mounted stinger array (Avenger?) is mounted atop on
      architectural facade near the White House, others are in plain view.
      For instance, when driving back from Bolling AFB to DC, you can see one
      atop a parking garage at the Navy Yard. So I doubt this magnitude of
      construction is for these. Also, I have my doubts about a missle silo.
      As we saw with the newly activated silos for the anti-missle defense at
      Fort Greeley in Alaska, loading the silos with cranes is a highly
      visible activity. Also, Patriots are trailed launched at an oblique
      angle, not vertically from silos.

      Paul Rosa

      eachtner wrote:

      >With regard to the Hains Point/Navy project, and in all seriousness,
      >perhaps we should consider one other possibility. It is clearly not
      >some ancillary construction for the "Black" Line or a submaine cable
      >facility.
      >
      >Why not some form of silo/hardened facility for an anti-aircraft or
      >anti-missile battery? Most likely the former based upon scale of
      >construction and the fact that Humvees with anti-aircraft capability
      >dot the region already. It would seem to me that that Navy, in
      >conjunction with the Army Core of Engineers would have the necessary
      >engineering capability to put a silo(s) next to a river.
      >
      >The location is just about pefect for DC-area coverage; right in the
      >middle of sites in Virgina and DC. Recall that there used to be Nike
      >missile batteries around the area so it wouldn't be unheard of
      >either - and we did pull out of the treaty. Who is to say a Patriot
      >battery couldn't be embedded in a silo for this special purpose site?
      >
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      >Yahoo! Groups Links
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    • John
      They should be kicking themselves for dismantling and disposing of those Nike-Hercules sites around the Baltimore-Washington area! :-) john
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
        They should be kicking themselves for dismantling and disposing of
        those Nike-Hercules sites around the Baltimore-Washington area! :-)

        john
      • Kenneth Coney
        Until they get the hang out of telling a jet plane from a missile I would be a little nervous flying to or from National if this is a Patriot battery. The
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
          Until they get the hang out of telling a jet plane from a missile I
          would be a little nervous flying to or from National if this is a
          Patriot battery. The site in question would be a good launch point to
          protect WH airspace, but there is the issue of the sky raining plane if
          such an extreme is used. Planes violate that airspace fairly often. I
          have physically observed several such incidents in the past 25 years and
          note that so far as I observed none of the pilots were suicidal and
          veered off when a helicopter or a jet intervened. Most were small
          planes, although I do recall an unauthorized helicopter landing on the
          WH lawn once. Perhaps a more violent approach is appropriate for a
          large jet, but as noted, this is hard on downtown real estate and
          pedestrians and (given the warhead size, proximity of authorized flight
          path to restricted air space, and the size and speed of some planes)
          possibly useless as a protection method. All in all, I would lean
          towards it being some kind of command center rather than an action site.


          paul rosa wrote:

          >Though one Humvee-mounted stinger array (Avenger?) is mounted atop on
          >architectural facade near the White House, others are in plain view.
          >For instance, when driving back from Bolling AFB to DC, you can see one
          >atop a parking garage at the Navy Yard. So I doubt this magnitude of
          >construction is for these. Also, I have my doubts about a missle silo.
          >As we saw with the newly activated silos for the anti-missle defense at
          >Fort Greeley in Alaska, loading the silos with cranes is a highly
          >visible activity. Also, Patriots are trailed launched at an oblique
          >angle, not vertically from silos.
          >
          >Paul Rosa
          >
          >eachtner wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >>With regard to the Hains Point/Navy project, and in all seriousness,
          >>perhaps we should consider one other possibility. It is clearly not
          >>some ancillary construction for the "Black" Line or a submaine cable
          >>facility.
          >>
          >>Why not some form of silo/hardened facility for an anti-aircraft or
          >>anti-missile battery? Most likely the former based upon scale of
          >>construction and the fact that Humvees with anti-aircraft capability
          >>dot the region already. It would seem to me that that Navy, in
          >>conjunction with the Army Core of Engineers would have the necessary
          >>engineering capability to put a silo(s) next to a river.
          >>
          >>The location is just about pefect for DC-area coverage; right in the
          >>middle of sites in Virgina and DC. Recall that there used to be Nike
          >>missile batteries around the area so it wouldn't be unheard of
          >>either - and we did pull out of the treaty. Who is to say a Patriot
          >>battery couldn't be embedded in a silo for this special purpose site?
          >>
          >>
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          >>Yahoo! Groups Links
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          >Yahoo! Groups Links
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        • Kenneth Coney
          They had to dump them. Durn things kept launching themselves. Several incidents and blow ups (can verify with google). Kind of scary given plans to put
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
            They had to dump them. Durn things kept launching themselves. Several
            incidents and blow ups (can verify with google). Kind of scary given
            plans to put small nukes on them (which thankfully didn't go far). What
            was dumb was closing and walking away from the facilities themselves
            because the missile was faulty. Threw away the bathtub with the water
            and the baby.


            John wrote:

            >They should be kicking themselves for dismantling and disposing of
            >those Nike-Hercules sites around the Baltimore-Washington area! :-)
            >
            >john
            >
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          • Declared_Hostile
            Tossing in a wild *ssed totally impractical and incredibly implausible idea but maybe have the Navy build a ground based SPY-1 radar to watch the airspace
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
              Tossing in a wild *ssed totally impractical and incredibly implausible idea
              but maybe have the Navy build a ground based SPY-1 radar to watch the
              airspace around DC and a nest of a dozen or so SM-2 missiles in vertical
              launch boxes in a few areas around the city. Mount those phased array panels
              right on the washington monument. ;)




              I always wondered how that would work as a land based SAM system. With the
              new Block IVA models you would even have a theater ballistic missile defense
              built right in.




              Snazzy huh? Wonder if it would actually work?



              DH
              Oderint dum metuant
              "Let them hate us, so long as they fear us."

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Kenneth Coney" <superc@...>
              To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 2:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Hains Points - National Missile Defense


              >
              > Until they get the hang out of telling a jet plane from a missile I
              > would be a little nervous flying to or from National if this is a
              > Patriot battery. The site in question would be a good launch point to
              > protect WH airspace, but there is the issue of the sky raining plane if
              > such an extreme is used. Planes violate that airspace fairly often. I
              > have physically observed several such incidents in the past 25 years and
              > note that so far as I observed none of the pilots were suicidal and
              > veered off when a helicopter or a jet intervened. Most were small
              > planes, although I do recall an unauthorized helicopter landing on the
              > WH lawn once. Perhaps a more violent approach is appropriate for a
              > large jet, but as noted, this is hard on downtown real estate and
              > pedestrians and (given the warhead size, proximity of authorized flight
              > path to restricted air space, and the size and speed of some planes)
              > possibly useless as a protection method. All in all, I would lean
              > towards it being some kind of command center rather than an action site.
              >
              >
              > paul rosa wrote:
              >
              >>Though one Humvee-mounted stinger array (Avenger?) is mounted atop on
              >>architectural facade near the White House, others are in plain view.
              >>For instance, when driving back from Bolling AFB to DC, you can see one
              >>atop a parking garage at the Navy Yard. So I doubt this magnitude of
              >>construction is for these. Also, I have my doubts about a missle silo.
              >>As we saw with the newly activated silos for the anti-missle defense at
              >>Fort Greeley in Alaska, loading the silos with cranes is a highly
              >>visible activity. Also, Patriots are trailed launched at an oblique
              >>angle, not vertically from silos.
              >>
              >>Paul Rosa
              >>
              >>eachtner wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>With regard to the Hains Point/Navy project, and in all seriousness,
              >>>perhaps we should consider one other possibility. It is clearly not
              >>>some ancillary construction for the "Black" Line or a submaine cable
              >>>facility.
              >>>
              >>>Why not some form of silo/hardened facility for an anti-aircraft or
              >>>anti-missile battery? Most likely the former based upon scale of
              >>>construction and the fact that Humvees with anti-aircraft capability
              >>>dot the region already. It would seem to me that that Navy, in
              >>>conjunction with the Army Core of Engineers would have the necessary
              >>>engineering capability to put a silo(s) next to a river.
              >>>
              >>>The location is just about pefect for DC-area coverage; right in the
              >>>middle of sites in Virgina and DC. Recall that there used to be Nike
              >>>missile batteries around the area so it wouldn't be unheard of
              >>>either - and we did pull out of the treaty. Who is to say a Patriot
              >>>battery couldn't be embedded in a silo for this special purpose site?
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
              >>>
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              >>Yahoo! Groups Links
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            • Tad Grosvenor
              A bit of humor for the list regarding vehicles and missles: http://home.grandecom.net/~tlwright6/balloons.jpg
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
                A bit of humor for the list regarding vehicles and missles:
                http://home.grandecom.net/~tlwright6/balloons.jpg

                On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, paul rosa wrote:

                >
                > Though one Humvee-mounted stinger array (Avenger?) is mounted atop on
                > architectural facade near the White House, others are in plain view.
                > For instance, when driving back from Bolling AFB to DC, you can see one
                > atop a parking garage at the Navy Yard. So I doubt this magnitude of
                > construction is for these. Also, I have my doubts about a missle silo.
                > As we saw with the newly activated silos for the anti-missle defense at
                > Fort Greeley in Alaska, loading the silos with cranes is a highly
                > visible activity. Also, Patriots are trailed launched at an oblique
                > angle, not vertically from silos.
                >
                > Paul Rosa
                >
                > eachtner wrote:
                >
                > >With regard to the Hains Point/Navy project, and in all seriousness,
                > >perhaps we should consider one other possibility. It is clearly not
                > >some ancillary construction for the "Black" Line or a submaine cable
                > >facility.
                > >
                > >Why not some form of silo/hardened facility for an anti-aircraft or
                > >anti-missile battery? Most likely the former based upon scale of
                > >construction and the fact that Humvees with anti-aircraft capability
                > >dot the region already. It would seem to me that that Navy, in
                > >conjunction with the Army Core of Engineers would have the necessary
                > >engineering capability to put a silo(s) next to a river.
                > >
                > >The location is just about pefect for DC-area coverage; right in the
                > >middle of sites in Virgina and DC. Recall that there used to be Nike
                > >missile batteries around the area so it wouldn't be unheard of
                > >either - and we did pull out of the treaty. Who is to say a Patriot
                > >battery couldn't be embedded in a silo for this special purpose site?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
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                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
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                > >
                > >
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                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                > !DSPAM:41bf4488190311732315570!
                >
              • thomasbmoran@netscape.net
                I beg to differ with your evaluation of the Nike series of anti-aircraft missle system. Indeed the Ajax and Hercules series missiles were very successful
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
                  I beg to differ with your evaluation of the Nike series of anti-aircraft
                  missle system. Indeed the Ajax and Hercules series missiles were very
                  successful during their development and deployment. Yes, there was at least
                  one case of a missile self launching, but if I remember correctly, they
                  identified the problem and it was not a design or systemic problem. It was
                  something like a frayed, shorted cable or something. I'm not sure about any
                  accidential launchings, although it may have occurred.
                  The Nike Hercules version did in fact have a nuclear warhead. It was a W32 and was deployed to the field. Not all sites had the nuclear warhead.
                  The reason for the elimination of the Nikes after 10-15 or so years was that the threat to the US from the USSR changed. The Nike system was to protect the continental US from manned bomber attack. As the threat changed
                  to intercontinental ballistic missiles the Nikes were phased out. A little
                  research on the web will confirm substantially what I've said.





                  Kenneth Coney <superc@...> wrote:

                  >They had to dump them.  Durn things kept launching themselves.  Several
                  >incidents and blow ups (can verify with google).  Kind of scary given
                  >plans to put small nukes on them (which thankfully didn't go far).  What
                  >was dumb was closing and walking away from the facilities themselves
                  >because the missile was faulty.  Threw away the bathtub with the water
                  >and the baby.
                  >
                  >
                  >John wrote:
                  >
                  >>They should be kicking themselves for dismantling and disposing of
                  >>those Nike-Hercules sites around the Baltimore-Washington area!  :-)
                  >>
                  >>john
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>  
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >

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                • Hole in the Head Press
                  I d be interested to know the source for this. I m working on the 3rd edition of Rings of Supersonic Steel, and would like to include a list of verified
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
                    I'd be interested to know the source for this. I'm working on the 3rd
                    edition of Rings of Supersonic Steel, and would like to include a list of
                    verified accidents with the Nike system.

                    Cheers,
                    Sam Stokes, Publisher,
                    Second Edition of Rings of Supersonic Steel
                    Air Defenses of the US Army 1950-1979
                    An Introductory History & Site Guide
                    http://www.holeintheheadpress.com



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Kenneth Coney [mailto:superc@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 12:38 PM
                    To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: Hains Points - National Missile Defense


                    They had to dump them. Durn things kept launching themselves. Several
                    incidents and blow ups (can verify with google). Kind of scary given
                    plans to put small nukes on them (which thankfully didn't go far). What
                    was dumb was closing and walking away from the facilities themselves
                    because the missile was faulty. Threw away the bathtub with the water
                    and the baby.
                  • eachtner
                    Just some further thoughts: 1) Part of the NMD system called for systems to be placed on AEGIS naval ships. So, maybe it isn t a Patriot battery because of
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
                      Just some further thoughts:

                      1) Part of the NMD system called for systems to be placed on AEGIS
                      naval ships. So, maybe it isn't a Patriot battery because of the
                      vertical launch position. What was the Naval NMD equivalent - the
                      Standard? - clearly, that was to be used from a vertical silo. This
                      is a Navy project, right? And I'm not convinced that flooding is an
                      issue here at all. I'm sure that issue easily be overcome if enough
                      money is thrown at it. Perhaps they've taken the mega-TRW laser off
                      the 747ABL and are putting it on a elevator platform like in Spies
                      Like Us (that was a joke). I don't know what system is in place, I
                      just have a feeling it is anti-missile related based on the
                      location. Don't you think it is odd we have interceptors at two
                      locations on the West Coast (Greely and Vandy) but leave the Capitol
                      exposed?

                      2) The more I think about it, the less I feel that this is for anti-
                      aircraft protection. The location is wrong (no warning whatsoever,
                      by the time you launch, it is too late) and the trajectory would be
                      wrong too based on the location of National. The HUMVEEs have us
                      covered there.....

                      3) This REALLY is an optimal location. Why? The land is federally
                      owned, centrally located, and probably close to some Defense fiber
                      to which the battery can be directly tied into SIPRNet or whatever
                      interface they'e using for NMD targetting. As anyone who lives
                      in/near DC knows, the price of real estate, as well as the power of
                      ANCs and developers is making the acquisition of large parcels of
                      land cost-prohibitive. Look how much the estimates are for the new
                      stadium! The Mall represents the most centrally located and cost-
                      effective solution. It took how long to get permission for the WWII
                      memorial and the Native American museum? And this facility just
                      kinda shows up unnanounced....



                      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "eachtner" <eachtner@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > With regard to the Hains Point/Navy project, and in all
                      seriousness,
                      > perhaps we should consider one other possibility. It is clearly
                      not
                      > some ancillary construction for the "Black" Line or a submaine
                      cable
                      > facility.
                      >
                      > Why not some form of silo/hardened facility for an anti-aircraft
                      or
                      > anti-missile battery? Most likely the former based upon scale of
                      > construction and the fact that Humvees with anti-aircraft
                      capability
                      > dot the region already. It would seem to me that that Navy, in
                      > conjunction with the Army Core of Engineers would have the
                      necessary
                      > engineering capability to put a silo(s) next to a river.
                      >
                      > The location is just about pefect for DC-area coverage; right in
                      the
                      > middle of sites in Virgina and DC. Recall that there used to be
                      Nike
                      > missile batteries around the area so it wouldn't be unheard of
                      > either - and we did pull out of the treaty. Who is to say a
                      Patriot
                      > battery couldn't be embedded in a silo for this special purpose
                      site?
                    • Xxxxx xxx
                      No. I don t differentiate much between the different Nike variants from this position in time. There is no point as they are all past history where this
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 14, 2004
                        No. I don't differentiate much between the different Nike variants
                        from this position in time. There is no point as they are all past
                        history where this country is concerned. I do concede the Nike
                        Hercules could come with a nuclear warhead. However I think if you
                        will check you will find the nuke installation was confined to
                        unimportant seeming places like Europe, Greenland, Korea or Alaska.
                        Not too many nuke armed Nikes near DC or NYC. If you find a site
                        talking about same I would like to see it. The Nike Ajax had 3
                        warheads using composition B. See TM 9-1970-2 Feb 58. The Nike
                        Hercules often used a "conventional" explosive, 600 lbs. of HBX-5.
                        When nuclear armed the Nike Hercules initially used the the W31
                        warhead weighing 1123 lbs. with a switchable yield of between 2 - 40
                        kilotons. The PAL was removed and an arming plug determined yield and
                        altitude.

                        Like I said, try Google. Try http://ed-thelen.org/missiles.html for a
                        pretty good intro to the Nike (There were two other Nikes. Nike Zeus
                        and Nike X, neither is mentioned at ed-thelen.org.) My understanding
                        is "crew safety keys" had a lot to do with the accident problems, so
                        too did erratic voltages and faulty PALs during tests. It was
                        supposed to be a two key safety key system, but having just one key
                        could trigger a launch.

                        See http://community-2.webtv.net/nikew25/roguenike/ which contains,
                        "The first significant Nike accident occurred at Fort Meade on the
                        rainy afternoon of Thursday, 14 April 1955. At 12:35 p.m., Battery C
                        was "practicing Nike procedures" when the rocket booster on an Ajax
                        which was being elevated on its launcher suddenly ignited and the
                        missile took off. Crewman Sgt. 1st Cl. Stanley C. Kozak, standing
                        seven feet away, was caught in the flareback from booster ignition and
                        suffered minor burns."

                        See also http://home.earthlink.net/~nbrass1/nike/ajax.htm
                        "The first Nike fatalities occurred May 22, 1958 at a site in
                        Leonardo, New Jersey near Middletown, resulting in the deaths of four
                        civilian employee deaths and six GIs. Ironically, the Army had just
                        presented a series of lectures to the townspeople explaining how safe
                        Nike was. True, there were multiple safety features to prevent the
                        booster or rocket motor from starting prematurely, or the warheads
                        from bursting. To understand what went so terribly wrong, an
                        understanding of how the warheads were detonated is necessary.

                        Nike Ajax contained three warheads, each connected to primer cords
                        (fuses) whose primary component consisted of PETN
                        (Pentaerythrioltetranitrate) which came together at a four-way
                        connector, connected in turn to an electrically activated igniter. The
                        fitting where the primer cord connected to the warhead was designed to
                        fit loosely. The accident occurred during a modification to replace
                        the safety and arming mechanism with an improved device. For this the
                        warheads had to be removed. Apparently someone had the brilliant idea
                        of shimming the connection from the primer cord to the warhead with
                        anything at hand - a washer, bits of solder, etc. to make it fit more
                        tightly. When the unsuspecting GI used a wrench to remove the cord
                        from the warhead, a spark set off the explosive. The extensive
                        safeguards were bypassed. All seven missiles in B battery exploded,
                        strewing bits and pieces and shrapnel over a three mile area. In
                        addition, the booster on one missile in A battery ignited, sending the
                        unarmed missile harmlessly into a hillside"

                        OKINAWA 1959 Nike Hercules Accident at Site 8 (Naha Air Base) See
                        http://ed-thelen.org/history.html#Okinawa

                        Korea 1998(!)
                        "SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- An anti-aircraft missile was launched
                        accidentally into busy airspace over the western city of Inchon today,
                        injuring at least three people on the ground. The missile was
                        destroyed automatically by a built-in safety device seconds after it
                        left the launcher, sending a shower of metal fragments over a nearby
                        residential area, officials said. The Defense Ministry said the
                        Nike-Hercules missile was fired accidentally by an electronic circuit
                        malfunction during a routine training session"

                        It seems South Korea still has some of our old ones.
                        As you imply, the cause, "After extensive study, Ministry of Defense
                        said they found an outdated cable between laucher and control tower(or
                        room), which was installed underneath of the ground. And that was a
                        sole reason behind the unwanted launch."

                        We can pretend all we want the accidents in the 50s and 60s had
                        nothing to do with the decision to phase them out around NYC and
                        Washington, DC, but I think we would be lying if we tried. You can't
                        tell me the accident at Ft. Meade didn't resonate in Capitol Hill.
                        Likewise, I am pretty sure the blast in Middletown, NJ was "heard" on
                        Wall Street.

                        Do a Google. There are thousands of Nike pages. This was just from
                        three.

                        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, thomasbmoran@n... wrote:
                        > I beg to differ with your evaluation of the Nike series of
                        anti-aircraft
                        > missle system. Indeed the Ajax and Hercules series missiles were very
                        > successful during their development and deployment. Yes, there was
                        at least
                        > one case of a missile self launching, but if I remember correctly, they
                        > identified the problem and it was not a design or systemic problem.
                        It was
                        > something like a frayed, shorted cable or something. I'm not sure
                        about any
                        > accidential launchings, although it may have occurred.
                        > The Nike Hercules version did in fact have a nuclear warhead. It
                        was a W32 and was deployed to the field. Not all sites had the nuclear
                        warhead.
                        > The reason for the elimination of the Nikes after 10-15 or so years
                        was that the threat to the US from the USSR changed. The Nike system
                        was to protect the continental US from manned bomber attack. As the
                        threat changed
                        > to intercontinental ballistic missiles the Nikes were phased out. A
                        little
                        > research on the web will confirm substantially what I've said.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >They had to dump them. Durn things kept launching themselves.
                        Several
                        > >incidents and blow ups (can verify with google). Kind of scary given
                        > >plans to put small nukes on them (which thankfully didn't go far).
                        What
                        > >was dumb was closing and walking away from the facilities themselves
                        > >because the missile was faulty. Threw away the bathtub with the water
                        > >and the baby.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >John wrote:
                        > >
                        > >>They should be kicking themselves for dismantling and disposing of
                        > >>those Nike-Hercules sites around the Baltimore-Washington area! :-)
                        > >>
                        > >>john
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
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                      • thomasbmoran@netscape.net
                        I don t deny that there weren t accidents. Considering the number of missiles deployed I m surprised that there weren t more accidents. As regards the fielding
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 15, 2004
                          I don't deny that there weren't accidents. Considering the number of
                          missiles deployed I'm surprised that there weren't more accidents. As
                          regards the fielding of nuclear warheads they were more widely deployed
                          than you think. I know from personal experience that there were nuclear
                          warheads in the Boston area in the early 1970's. This is not to say that
                          all sites had them.



                          "Xxxxx xxx" <superc@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >No.  I don't differentiate much between the different Nike variants
                          >from this position in time.  There is no point as they are all past
                          >history where this country is concerned.  I do concede the Nike
                          >Hercules could come with a nuclear warhead.  However I think if you
                          >will check you will find the nuke installation was confined to
                          >unimportant seeming places like Europe, Greenland, Korea or Alaska.
                          >Not too many nuke armed Nikes near DC or NYC.  If you find a site
                          >talking about same I would like to see it.  The Nike Ajax had 3
                          >warheads using composition B.  See TM 9-1970-2  Feb 58.  The Nike
                          >Hercules often used a "conventional" explosive, 600 lbs. of HBX-5.
                          >When nuclear armed the Nike Hercules initially used the the W31
                          >warhead weighing 1123 lbs. with a switchable yield of between 2 - 40
                          >kilotons.  The PAL was removed and an arming plug determined yield and
                          >altitude.  
                          >
                          >Like I said, try Google.  Try http://ed-thelen.org/missiles.html for a
                          >pretty good intro to the Nike (There were two other Nikes.  Nike Zeus
                          >and Nike X, neither is mentioned at ed-thelen.org.)   My understanding
                          >is "crew safety keys" had a lot to do with the accident problems, so
                          >too did erratic voltages and faulty PALs during tests.  It was
                          >supposed to be a two key safety key system, but having just one key
                          >could trigger a launch.
                          >
                          >See http://community-2.webtv.net/nikew25/roguenike/ which contains,
                          >"The first significant Nike accident occurred at Fort Meade on the
                          >rainy afternoon of Thursday, 14 April 1955. At 12:35 p.m., Battery C
                          >was "practicing Nike procedures" when the rocket booster on an Ajax
                          >which was being elevated on its launcher suddenly ignited and the
                          >missile took off. Crewman Sgt. 1st Cl. Stanley C. Kozak, standing
                          >seven feet away, was caught in the flareback from booster ignition and
                          >suffered minor burns."
                          >
                          >See also http://home.earthlink.net/~nbrass1/nike/ajax.htm
                          >"The first Nike fatalities occurred May 22, 1958 at a site in
                          >Leonardo, New Jersey near Middletown, resulting in the deaths of four
                          >civilian employee deaths and six GIs. Ironically, the Army had just
                          >presented a series of lectures to the townspeople explaining how safe
                          >Nike was. True, there were multiple safety features to prevent the
                          >booster or rocket motor from starting prematurely, or the warheads
                          >from bursting. To understand what went so terribly wrong, an
                          >understanding of how the warheads were detonated is necessary.  
                          >
                          >Nike Ajax contained three warheads, each connected to primer cords
                          >(fuses) whose primary component consisted of PETN
                          >(Pentaerythrioltetranitrate) which came together at a four-way
                          >connector, connected in turn to an electrically activated igniter. The
                          >fitting where the primer cord connected to the warhead was designed to
                          >fit loosely. The accident occurred during a modification to replace
                          >the safety and arming mechanism with an improved device. For this the
                          >warheads had to be removed. Apparently someone had the brilliant idea
                          >of shimming the connection from the primer cord to the warhead with
                          >anything at hand - a washer, bits of solder, etc. to make it fit more
                          >tightly. When the unsuspecting GI used a wrench to remove the cord
                          >from the warhead, a spark set off the explosive. The extensive
                          >safeguards were bypassed. All seven missiles in B battery exploded,
                          >strewing bits and pieces and shrapnel over a three mile area. In
                          >addition, the booster on one missile in A battery ignited, sending the
                          >unarmed missile harmlessly into a hillside"
                          >
                          >OKINAWA 1959 Nike Hercules Accident at Site 8 (Naha Air Base) See
                          >http://ed-thelen.org/history.html#Okinawa
                          >
                          >Korea 1998(!)
                          >"SEOUL, South Korea (AP) -- An anti-aircraft missile was launched
                          >accidentally into busy airspace over the western city of Inchon today,
                          >injuring at least three people on the ground. The missile was
                          >destroyed automatically by a built-in safety device seconds after it
                          >left the launcher, sending a shower of metal fragments over a nearby
                          >residential area, officials said. The Defense Ministry said the
                          >Nike-Hercules missile was fired accidentally by an electronic circuit
                          >malfunction during a routine training session"
                          >
                          >It seems South Korea still has some of our old ones.
                          >As you imply, the cause, "After extensive study, Ministry of Defense
                          >said they found an outdated cable between laucher and control tower(or
                          >room), which was installed underneath of the ground. And that was a
                          >sole reason behind the unwanted launch."
                          >
                          >We can pretend all we want the accidents in the 50s and 60s had
                          >nothing to do with the decision to phase them out around NYC and
                          >Washington, DC, but I think we would be lying if we tried.  You can't
                          >tell me the accident at Ft. Meade didn't resonate in Capitol Hill.
                          >Likewise, I am pretty sure the blast in Middletown, NJ was "heard" on
                          >Wall Street.
                          >
                          >Do a Google.  There are thousands of Nike pages.  This was just from
                          >three.
                          >
                          >--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, thomasbmoran@n... wrote:
                          >>   I beg to differ with your evaluation of the Nike series of
                          >anti-aircraft
                          >> missle system. Indeed the Ajax and Hercules series missiles were very
                          >> successful during their development and deployment. Yes, there was
                          >at least
                          >> one case of a missile self launching, but if I remember correctly, they
                          >> identified the problem and it was not a design or systemic problem.
                          >It was
                          >> something like a frayed, shorted cable or something. I'm not sure
                          >about any
                          >> accidential launchings, although it may have occurred.
                          >>   The Nike Hercules version did in fact have a nuclear warhead. It
                          >was a W32 and was deployed to the field. Not all sites had the nuclear
                          >warhead.
                          >> The reason for the elimination of the Nikes after 10-15 or so years
                          >was that the threat to the US from the USSR changed. The Nike system
                          >was to protect the continental US from manned bomber attack. As the
                          >threat changed
                          >> to intercontinental ballistic missiles the Nikes were phased out. A
                          >little
                          >> research on the web will confirm substantially what I've said.
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Kenneth Coney <superc@v...> wrote:
                          >>
                          >> >They had to dump them.  Durn things kept launching themselves.
                          > Several
                          >> >incidents and blow ups (can verify with google).  Kind of scary given
                          >> >plans to put small nukes on them (which thankfully didn't go far).
                          > What
                          >> >was dumb was closing and walking away from the facilities themselves
                          >> >because the missile was faulty.  Threw away the bathtub with the water
                          >> >and the baby.
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >John wrote:
                          >> >
                          >> >>They should be kicking themselves for dismantling and disposing of
                          >> >>those Nike-Hercules sites around the Baltimore-Washington area!  :-)
                          >> >>
                          >> >>john
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>  
                          >> >>
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >>
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                        • Kevin Hritz
                          I know some of the Pittsburgh area Nike facilities had nuclear warheads on-site at certain times during their operational history. Kevin Hritz W3QD ... From:
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 15, 2004
                            I know some of the Pittsburgh area Nike facilities had nuclear warheads
                            on-site at certain times during their operational history.

                            Kevin Hritz
                            W3QD

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: <thomasbmoran@...>
                            To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2004 8:16 PM
                            Subject: RE: [coldwarcomms] Re: Hains Points - National Missile Defense


                            >
                            > I don't deny that there weren't accidents. Considering the number of
                            > missiles deployed I'm surprised that there weren't more accidents. As
                            > regards the fielding of nuclear warheads they were more widely deployed
                            > than you think. I know from personal experience that there were nuclear
                            > warheads in the Boston area in the early 1970's. This is not to say that
                            > all sites had them.
                            >
                            >
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