Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [coldwarcomms] Secret presidential tunnel?

Expand Messages
  • Kenneth Coney
    ROTFLMAO at Here are unclassified mentions of the Presidential Subway that runs under/near Rt 7 to Berryville/Winchester and connects via the Rt 11/Rt 81
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 5, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      ROTFLMAO at " Here are unclassified mentions of the Presidential Subway
      that runs under/near Rt 7 to Berryville/Winchester and connects via the
      Rt 11/Rt 81 access points with numerous facilities at Front Royal,
      Summit Point, Bluemont, Quirauk Mt, Blue Ridge, Sites W/R/D/S/C/E, and
      the other 107 relocation and C3I sites in the area with the situation
      room at the White House and the Site P/NMCC command center just off the
      Yellow line ext to the Potomac."

      Got personal knowledge of several of those alleged waypoints. T'would
      be a very interesting construction project. Don't rightly know how I
      missed that installation. Guess the subway construction circled around
      the farms. Perhaps they ran a shielded boring machine for the whole 30
      miles from FEMA to I-81 and beyond without vent holes? Anyone besides
      me see the problems in doing that through Clarke County's loose karst
      topography without someone noticing? Did they tell OSHA or are the
      deceased workers presumably lost in area 51 as a misdirection? Does
      anyone else remember what happened to the machine when the LA Subway
      tried to go under the Santa Monica mountains? The line of sinkholes in
      Clarke and Frederick counties should be plainly visible from the air if
      the writer's contention was true. Where are they? Presumably this came
      out of the bottom of Mt. Weather and ran deep under the Shenandoah
      River. Right through the fault line. (Why is metro struggling to run
      the subway to Leesburg if one is already built?) There's a route 11
      access point? That's on the West side of Winchester! At last, a way of
      avoiding the East West traffic crunch on the quaint town with the one
      lane streets and a traffic light every 50 feet. Park at FEMA and take
      the Berryville subway to the Route 11 subway stop. Why didn't I think
      of that? Can I use a military id to get from Winchester or Berryville
      to the Pentagon or DC to ease the commute, or is that presidential
      privelege or FEMA id only? What about maintenance inspection runs?
      Does anyone have a schedule for the daily inspection run (thinking of
      hitching a ride to avoid the commute)? Front Royal? He must mean at
      the old military base (Flint Hill, now owned by the Smithsonian Zoo). A
      great spot if you are into semi abandoned military bases, but the most
      secret things I have ever seen there were tiger cubs and I have (with
      permission) wandered around a bit there. Summit Point (a Nascar
      racetrack surrounded by trailer parks and mountains of used tires and
      junked cars with no local stores 5 miles W outside of Charles Town,
      WV)? Why would anyone want to go there? Perhaps the subway is so the
      residents have an easy way of leaving as soon as they are old enough? I
      won't even discuss running the line up to Site R and other points and
      engineering and secrecy problems with the whole concept. LOL.

      " There are pedestrian tunnels that run between the Pentagon and the
      surrounding parking area, plus there is habitable office and work space
      that have been excavated in pockets around the main structure, some of
      which are hundreds of feet away."

      Yeah, so what? What's the connection to the secret subway? Some of
      those Pentagon tunnels are only two feet tall and full of pipes and
      wiring put there sixty years ago and a rat would have trouble traversing
      them. Most are so old the lights are gone because the old cloth covered
      wiring corroded. (I saw Handblown lightbulbs (little teat at the end
      where the pipette was removed), paper milk cartons and rusty, old,
      empty, steel beer cans in some. How old was that?) Some are partially
      collapsed, dark, dripping water and have roaches the size of my hand
      that chase the rats. Some are bricked over as unsafe and filled in. A
      worker died horribly in one narrow crawlway about a decade ago when a
      (about 900 degrees F) steam pipe got him 150 yards from an exit. I
      think the writer assumes the POAC entrance is something it ain't and
      also assumes what tunnels there are, are bigger than they are. The
      actual pedestrian walkways from building to parking lots are very few
      and very short. I wish they weren't. Wish there was a dry lit tunnel
      from the back of the North Lot to the main building, but there wasn't
      when I was there.


      Albert LaFrance wrote:

      >Some rather fantastic assertions here; I would be very interested in seeing
      >any supporting evidence, but I'm not holding my breath:
      >http://cryptome.org/prez-tunnel.htm
      >
      >Albert
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • paul rosa
      Not to comment on the ludicrous tunnel idea, but you mention the Summit Point Raceway as if it were abandoned and tumbleweeds were blowing in the wind.
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Not to comment on the ludicrous tunnel idea, but you mention the Summit
        Point Raceway as if it were abandoned and tumbleweeds were blowing in
        the wind. Actually, it is quite busy (in fact maxed) with training for
        State, other agencies and the military in teaching anti-terrorism
        driving tactics, and they also have submachine gun and other ranges for
        the same folks. There are long waiting lists for a training slot, and
        the track is fully leased on weekends to auto clubs. And a second new
        Sebring type track opened there just a couple of months ago.

        Paul Rosa

        Kenneth Coney wrote:

        >ROTFLMAO at " Here are unclassified mentions of the Presidential Subway
        >that runs under/near Rt 7 to Berryville/Winchester and connects via the
        >Rt 11/Rt 81 access points with numerous facilities at Front Royal,
        >Summit Point, Bluemont, Quirauk Mt, Blue Ridge, Sites W/R/D/S/C/E, and
        >the other 107 relocation and C3I sites in the area with the situation
        >room at the White House and the Site P/NMCC command center just off the
        >Yellow line ext to the Potomac."
        >
        >Got personal knowledge of several of those alleged waypoints. T'would
        >be a very interesting construction project. Don't rightly know how I
        >missed that installation. Guess the subway construction circled around
        >the farms. Perhaps they ran a shielded boring machine for the whole 30
        >miles from FEMA to I-81 and beyond without vent holes? Anyone besides
        >me see the problems in doing that through Clarke County's loose karst
        >topography without someone noticing? Did they tell OSHA or are the
        >deceased workers presumably lost in area 51 as a misdirection? Does
        >anyone else remember what happened to the machine when the LA Subway
        >tried to go under the Santa Monica mountains? The line of sinkholes in
        >Clarke and Frederick counties should be plainly visible from the air if
        >the writer's contention was true. Where are they? Presumably this came
        >out of the bottom of Mt. Weather and ran deep under the Shenandoah
        >River. Right through the fault line. (Why is metro struggling to run
        >the subway to Leesburg if one is already built?) There's a route 11
        >access point? That's on the West side of Winchester! At last, a way of
        >avoiding the East West traffic crunch on the quaint town with the one
        >lane streets and a traffic light every 50 feet. Park at FEMA and take
        >the Berryville subway to the Route 11 subway stop. Why didn't I think
        >of that? Can I use a military id to get from Winchester or Berryville
        >to the Pentagon or DC to ease the commute, or is that presidential
        >privelege or FEMA id only? What about maintenance inspection runs?
        >Does anyone have a schedule for the daily inspection run (thinking of
        >hitching a ride to avoid the commute)? Front Royal? He must mean at
        >the old military base (Flint Hill, now owned by the Smithsonian Zoo). A
        >great spot if you are into semi abandoned military bases, but the most
        >secret things I have ever seen there were tiger cubs and I have (with
        >permission) wandered around a bit there. Summit Point (a Nascar
        >racetrack surrounded by trailer parks and mountains of used tires and
        >junked cars with no local stores 5 miles W outside of Charles Town,
        >WV)? Why would anyone want to go there? Perhaps the subway is so the
        >residents have an easy way of leaving as soon as they are old enough? I
        >won't even discuss running the line up to Site R and other points and
        >engineering and secrecy problems with the whole concept. LOL.
        >
        >" There are pedestrian tunnels that run between the Pentagon and the
        >surrounding parking area, plus there is habitable office and work space
        >that have been excavated in pockets around the main structure, some of
        >which are hundreds of feet away."
        >
        >Yeah, so what? What's the connection to the secret subway? Some of
        >those Pentagon tunnels are only two feet tall and full of pipes and
        >wiring put there sixty years ago and a rat would have trouble traversing
        >them. Most are so old the lights are gone because the old cloth covered
        >wiring corroded. (I saw Handblown lightbulbs (little teat at the end
        >where the pipette was removed), paper milk cartons and rusty, old,
        >empty, steel beer cans in some. How old was that?) Some are partially
        >collapsed, dark, dripping water and have roaches the size of my hand
        >that chase the rats. Some are bricked over as unsafe and filled in. A
        >worker died horribly in one narrow crawlway about a decade ago when a
        >(about 900 degrees F) steam pipe got him 150 yards from an exit. I
        >think the writer assumes the POAC entrance is something it ain't and
        >also assumes what tunnels there are, are bigger than they are. The
        >actual pedestrian walkways from building to parking lots are very few
        >and very short. I wish they weren't. Wish there was a dry lit tunnel
        >from the back of the North Lot to the main building, but there wasn't
        >when I was there.
        >
        >
        >Albert LaFrance wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >>Some rather fantastic assertions here; I would be very interested in seeing
        >>any supporting evidence, but I'm not holding my breath:
        >>http://cryptome.org/prez-tunnel.htm
        >>
        >>Albert
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kenneth Coney
        Full agreement on Summit Point being a fairly active business enterprise. I did not mean to imply it is defunct. I am about a dozen miles from it today and
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Full agreement on Summit Point being a fairly active business
          enterprise. I did not mean to imply it is defunct. I am about a dozen
          miles from it today and when they are racing (usually (but not always)
          on weekends as you say) the race activities can be clearly heard (there
          being a general lack of competing noise locally). (There is a local
          petition going around to return one of the VA roads (632) heading to WV
          and Summit Point to a gravel state so as to cut down on the number of
          car trailers going and coming and drunken drivers (observers) coming
          back on Saturday and Sunday evenings and force them to use the main
          roads instead of the "short cut." through farm country There have been
          some incidents which have thus far mostly resulted in cars plowing into
          fence lines along the road, or going into ditches but local residents do
          not want to wait for a more serious incident.) My comments about many
          of the local children leaving upon becoming old enough, is true and, has
          to do with the economic prospects awaiting them should they stay, than
          it does with the general condition of the racetrack, which is well
          maintained. There are new homes going up not too far away that start at
          about $370,000 (low end) and go up from there. Very few of the families
          in the trailer parks have computers with internet in the trailer.
          Someone can pit crew on the go carts at Summit Point for 100 years after
          graduating from the local HS and never have enough to buy one of those
          new homes (which are usually bought by people who work in the DC beltway
          area and believe the new house with a laid back life style is worth the
          70 mile commute (as did I years ago). There are many exotic dance bars
          along route 11 nearby in WV and there is a horse race track and mini
          casino (slots only at this stage, although they keep trying to become a
          full fledged casino with card games, etc. and with all that would bring)
          in nearby CharlesTown, but very, very few legitimate jobs locally paying
          upwards of $60K at entry. A kid would have to move to the DC beltway
          to see one of those. Yes a variety of groups use the race track during
          the week. I have been there myself once or thrice. When you read about
          a Federal group or some body guard company teaching fast evasive driving
          somewhere in West VA, odds are that, even if the author doesn't know it,
          the race track at Summit Point is where he or she is writing about. As
          stated, people in a ten mile or so circle can usually hear what is going
          on there and although there is a lot of shooting locally (especially as
          it is now dear season) full auto fire has a fairly unique acoustic
          signature and we really haven't heard too much of that (although I
          concede submachine gun fire might be quieter over a 10 or 12 mile circle
          than full powered rifle cartridges). I have heard volleys of pistol
          fire, bit assumed that was from the range in Frogtown, VA rather than
          from Summit Point in WV. The idea of a Presidential subway stop there
          is ludicrous and would, as stated, beg the question why. During the
          recent campaign President Bush did do whistle stops not too far away,
          and the local papers noted it was the first visit of a President to the
          area in many decades.


          paul rosa wrote:

          Not to comment on the ludicrous tunnel idea, but you mention the Summit
          Point Raceway as if it were abandoned and tumbleweeds were blowing in
          the wind. Actually, it is quite busy (in fact maxed) with training for
          State, other agencies and the military in teaching anti-terrorism
          driving tactics, and they also have submachine gun and other ranges for
          the same folks. There are long waiting lists for a training slot, and
          the track is fully leased on weekends to auto clubs. And a second new
          Sebring type track opened there just a couple of months ago.

          Paul Rosa
        • paul rosa
          Kenneth: I live nearby as well. Bush may have been the first president to stop in the area while on a campaign tour, but Clinton and Gore did come to Harpers
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Kenneth:

            I live nearby as well. Bush may have been the first president to stop
            in the area while on a campaign tour, but Clinton and Gore did come to
            Harpers Ferry for their Earth Day photo op just a couple of years ago.

            Paul Rosa

            Kenneth Coney wrote:

            >Full agreement on Summit Point being a fairly active business
            >enterprise. I did not mean to imply it is defunct. I am about a dozen
            >miles from it today and when they are racing (usually (but not always)
            >on weekends as you say) the race activities can be clearly heard (there
            >being a general lack of competing noise locally). (There is a local
            >petition going around to return one of the VA roads (632) heading to WV
            >and Summit Point to a gravel state so as to cut down on the number of
            >car trailers going and coming and drunken drivers (observers) coming
            >back on Saturday and Sunday evenings and force them to use the main
            >roads instead of the "short cut." through farm country There have been
            >some incidents which have thus far mostly resulted in cars plowing into
            >fence lines along the road, or going into ditches but local residents do
            >not want to wait for a more serious incident.) My comments about many
            >of the local children leaving upon becoming old enough, is true and, has
            >to do with the economic prospects awaiting them should they stay, than
            >it does with the general condition of the racetrack, which is well
            >maintained. There are new homes going up not too far away that start at
            >about $370,000 (low end) and go up from there. Very few of the families
            >in the trailer parks have computers with internet in the trailer.
            >Someone can pit crew on the go carts at Summit Point for 100 years after
            >graduating from the local HS and never have enough to buy one of those
            >new homes (which are usually bought by people who work in the DC beltway
            >area and believe the new house with a laid back life style is worth the
            >70 mile commute (as did I years ago). There are many exotic dance bars
            >along route 11 nearby in WV and there is a horse race track and mini
            >casino (slots only at this stage, although they keep trying to become a
            >full fledged casino with card games, etc. and with all that would bring)
            >in nearby CharlesTown, but very, very few legitimate jobs locally paying
            >upwards of $60K at entry. A kid would have to move to the DC beltway
            >to see one of those. Yes a variety of groups use the race track during
            >the week. I have been there myself once or thrice. When you read about
            >a Federal group or some body guard company teaching fast evasive driving
            >somewhere in West VA, odds are that, even if the author doesn't know it,
            >the race track at Summit Point is where he or she is writing about. As
            >stated, people in a ten mile or so circle can usually hear what is going
            >on there and although there is a lot of shooting locally (especially as
            >it is now dear season) full auto fire has a fairly unique acoustic
            >signature and we really haven't heard too much of that (although I
            >concede submachine gun fire might be quieter over a 10 or 12 mile circle
            >than full powered rifle cartridges). I have heard volleys of pistol
            >fire, bit assumed that was from the range in Frogtown, VA rather than
            >from Summit Point in WV. The idea of a Presidential subway stop there
            >is ludicrous and would, as stated, beg the question why. During the
            >recent campaign President Bush did do whistle stops not too far away,
            >and the local papers noted it was the first visit of a President to the
            >area in many decades.
            >
            >
            >paul rosa wrote:
            >
            > Not to comment on the ludicrous tunnel idea, but you mention the Summit
            > Point Raceway as if it were abandoned and tumbleweeds were blowing in
            > the wind. Actually, it is quite busy (in fact maxed) with training for
            > State, other agencies and the military in teaching anti-terrorism
            > driving tactics, and they also have submachine gun and other ranges for
            > the same folks. There are long waiting lists for a training slot, and
            > the track is fully leased on weekends to auto clubs. And a second new
            > Sebring type track opened there just a couple of months ago.
            >
            > Paul Rosa
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Steve
            I, too, questioned the viability of these tunnels. Years ago I used to be a caver in VA and WV and one of our activities was blasting (small Tovex charges) to
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              I, too, questioned the viability of these tunnels.

              Years ago I used to be a caver in VA and WV and one of our activities
              was blasting (small Tovex charges) to open sink holes and crawlways.
              Yes, yes, I know it sounds rather crazy but it was actually not as
              dangerous as it sounds to non-cavers. Anyway a fellow in the office
              heard of my cave digging/blasting activities. His reaction was to
              warn us that there were "all kinds of secret government tunnels" in WV
              and that our blasting would get us in trouble with the Feds. In this
              case, this guy's tunnels were for secret submarine testing!

              I agree with other skeptics that the geology along the line in
              question would be *extremely* difficult to tunnel through. Going
              through the limestone (karst) areas would be very rough due to voids
              and sinkholes which would cause collapses.

              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance" <lafrance@a...>
              wrote:
              > Some rather fantastic assertions here; I would be very interested in
              seeing
              > any supporting evidence, but I'm not holding my breath:
              > http://cryptome.org/prez-tunnel.htm
              >
              > Albert
            • David Lesher
              ... Summit Point is not authorized (or wasn t when I was in USG) for live fire at/from moving vehicles, but there was lots of blanks/sound effects and maybe a
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                >
                >
                > Full agreement on Summit Point being a fairly active business
                ....
                > on there and although there is a lot of shooting locally (especially as
                > it is now dear season) full auto fire has a fairly unique acoustic
                > signature and we really haven't heard too much of that (although I
                > concede submachine gun fire might be quieter over a 10 or 12 mile circle
                > than full powered rifle cartridges). I have heard volleys of pistol
                > fire, bit assumed that was from the range in Frogtown, VA rather than
                > from Summit Point in WV.


                Summit Point is not authorized (or wasn't when I was in USG)
                for live fire at/from moving vehicles, but there was lots
                of blanks/sound effects and maybe a stationary range.

                Moving vehicle fire trainging was in AZ...


                --
                A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
              • Kenneth Coney
                Interesting. Not sure the sound of blanks would carry more than a mile or two.
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Interesting. Not sure the sound of blanks would carry more than a mile
                  or two.


                  David Lesher wrote:

                  >Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                  >
                  >
                  >>Full agreement on Summit Point being a fairly active business
                  >>
                  >>
                  >....
                  >
                  >
                  >>on there and although there is a lot of shooting locally (especially as
                  >>it is now dear season) full auto fire has a fairly unique acoustic
                  >>signature and we really haven't heard too much of that (although I
                  >>concede submachine gun fire might be quieter over a 10 or 12 mile circle
                  >>than full powered rifle cartridges). I have heard volleys of pistol
                  >>fire, bit assumed that was from the range in Frogtown, VA rather than
                  >>from Summit Point in WV.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >Summit Point is not authorized (or wasn't when I was in USG)
                  >for live fire at/from moving vehicles, but there was lots
                  >of blanks/sound effects and maybe a stationary range.
                  >
                  >Moving vehicle fire trainging was in AZ...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • paul rosa
                  David: I m sorry if I created the impression that Summit Point was a moving vehicle live fire training center. Antiterrorism driving and weapons training are
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    David:

                    I'm sorry if I created the impression that Summit Point was a moving
                    vehicle live fire training center. Antiterrorism driving and weapons
                    training are two seaparate but related skills that are simultaneously
                    taught there. I didn't want to suggest that people are shooting from
                    vehicles. They do so from the subgun and shotgun ranges. Evasive
                    driving skills are a separate class.

                    Paul Rosa

                    David Lesher wrote:

                    >Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                    >
                    >
                    >>Full agreement on Summit Point being a fairly active business
                    >>
                    >>
                    >....
                    >
                    >
                    >>on there and although there is a lot of shooting locally (especially as
                    >>it is now dear season) full auto fire has a fairly unique acoustic
                    >>signature and we really haven't heard too much of that (although I
                    >>concede submachine gun fire might be quieter over a 10 or 12 mile circle
                    >>than full powered rifle cartridges). I have heard volleys of pistol
                    >>fire, bit assumed that was from the range in Frogtown, VA rather than
                    >>from Summit Point in WV.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >Summit Point is not authorized (or wasn't when I was in USG)
                    >for live fire at/from moving vehicles, but there was lots
                    >of blanks/sound effects and maybe a stationary range.
                    >
                    >Moving vehicle fire trainging was in AZ...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • paul rosa
                    Kenneth: These aren t blanks. Summit Point is live fire. Paul Rosa ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Kenneth:

                      These aren't blanks. Summit Point is live fire.

                      Paul Rosa

                      Kenneth Coney wrote:

                      >Interesting. Not sure the sound of blanks would carry more than a mile
                      >or two.
                      >
                      >
                      >David Lesher wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>Full agreement on Summit Point being a fairly active business
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>....
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>on there and although there is a lot of shooting locally (especially as
                      >>>it is now dear season) full auto fire has a fairly unique acoustic
                      >>>signature and we really haven't heard too much of that (although I
                      >>>concede submachine gun fire might be quieter over a 10 or 12 mile circle
                      >>>than full powered rifle cartridges). I have heard volleys of pistol
                      >>>fire, bit assumed that was from the range in Frogtown, VA rather than
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>from Summit Point in WV.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>Summit Point is not authorized (or wasn't when I was in USG)
                      >>for live fire at/from moving vehicles, but there was lots
                      >>of blanks/sound effects and maybe a stationary range.
                      >>
                      >>Moving vehicle fire trainging was in AZ...
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David Lesher
                      ... No bad here.... Iffen they COULD teach moving live fire there, they would; it would save a hell of a lot of TDY money! -- A host is a host from coast to
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 6, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
                        >
                        >
                        > David:
                        >
                        > I'm sorry if I created the impression that Summit Point was a moving
                        > vehicle live fire training center. Antiterrorism driving and weapons
                        > training are two seaparate but related skills that are simultaneously
                        > taught there. I didn't want to suggest that people are shooting from
                        > vehicles. They do so from the subgun and shotgun ranges. Evasive
                        > driving skills are a separate class.

                        No bad here.... Iffen they COULD teach moving live fire there,
                        they would; it would save a hell of a lot of TDY money!



                        --
                        A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                        & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                        Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                        is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                      • paul rosa
                        Steve: The secret submarine testing is done on the north side of the Potomac River just upriver from the American Legion bridge on the Beltway at the David
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 7, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve:

                          The secret submarine testing is done on the north side of the Potomac
                          River just upriver from the American Legion bridge on the Beltway at the
                          David Taylor facility. Actually, they test all kinds of ship hull
                          designs there. Inside the building, there is an almost half mile long
                          basin of water where the models are tested. But the biggest secret is
                          that they let the US National Whitewater team train there at night
                          during the winter. Even though that should give the US a competitive
                          edge, we don't seem to have garnered a whole lot of Olympic medals in
                          that sport yet. Put perhaps we'll get there eventually. BTW,
                          everything at David Taylor is above ground. There are no tunnels.

                          Paul Rosa

                          Steve wrote:

                          >
                          >I, too, questioned the viability of these tunnels.
                          >
                          >Years ago I used to be a caver in VA and WV and one of our activities
                          >was blasting (small Tovex charges) to open sink holes and crawlways.
                          >Yes, yes, I know it sounds rather crazy but it was actually not as
                          >dangerous as it sounds to non-cavers. Anyway a fellow in the office
                          >heard of my cave digging/blasting activities. His reaction was to
                          >warn us that there were "all kinds of secret government tunnels" in WV
                          >and that our blasting would get us in trouble with the Feds. In this
                          >case, this guy's tunnels were for secret submarine testing!
                          >
                          >I agree with other skeptics that the geology along the line in
                          >question would be *extremely* difficult to tunnel through. Going
                          >through the limestone (karst) areas would be very rough due to voids
                          >and sinkholes which would cause collapses.
                          >
                          >--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance" <lafrance@a...>
                          >wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >>Some rather fantastic assertions here; I would be very interested in
                          >>
                          >>
                          >seeing
                          >
                          >
                          >>any supporting evidence, but I'm not holding my breath:
                          >>http://cryptome.org/prez-tunnel.htm
                          >>
                          >>Albert
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Kenneth Coney
                          Also many of the models tested there are only three to six feet long.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 7, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Also many of the models tested there are only three to six feet long.


                            paul rosa wrote:

                            >Steve:
                            >
                            >The secret submarine testing is done on the north side of the Potomac
                            >River just upriver from the American Legion bridge on the Beltway at the
                            >David Taylor facility. Actually, they test all kinds of ship hull
                            >designs there. Inside the building, there is an almost half mile long
                            >basin of water where the models are tested. But the biggest secret is
                            >that they let the US National Whitewater team train there at night
                            >during the winter. Even though that should give the US a competitive
                            >edge, we don't seem to have garnered a whole lot of Olympic medals in
                            >that sport yet. Put perhaps we'll get there eventually. BTW,
                            >everything at David Taylor is above ground. There are no tunnels.
                            >
                            >Paul Rosa
                            >
                            >Steve wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >>I, too, questioned the viability of these tunnels.
                            >>
                            >>Years ago I used to be a caver in VA and WV and one of our activities
                            >>was blasting (small Tovex charges) to open sink holes and crawlways.
                            >>Yes, yes, I know it sounds rather crazy but it was actually not as
                            >>dangerous as it sounds to non-cavers. Anyway a fellow in the office
                            >>heard of my cave digging/blasting activities. His reaction was to
                            >>warn us that there were "all kinds of secret government tunnels" in WV
                            >>and that our blasting would get us in trouble with the Feds. In this
                            >>case, this guy's tunnels were for secret submarine testing!
                            >>
                            >>I agree with other skeptics that the geology along the line in
                            >>question would be *extremely* difficult to tunnel through. Going
                            >>through the limestone (karst) areas would be very rough due to voids
                            >>and sinkholes which would cause collapses.
                            >>
                            >>--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance" <lafrance@a...>
                            >>wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>>Some rather fantastic assertions here; I would be very interested in
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>seeing
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>>any supporting evidence, but I'm not holding my breath:
                            >>>http://cryptome.org/prez-tunnel.htm
                            >>>
                            >>>Albert
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Kenneth Coney
                            Steve, What tickles me about it is not just building a tunnel, but rather instead putting in a subway, secretly, without anyone seeing or noticing anything
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 7, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Steve,
                              What tickles me about it is not just building a tunnel, but rather
                              instead putting in a subway, secretly, without anyone seeing or noticing
                              anything unusual. LOL

                              I have watched the installation of subway tunnels and aqueducts in both
                              NY and DC and worked at those sites and am very amused at the idea of
                              someone finding a way to run a 300 plus mile subway without the
                              construction being noticed.

                              The only approach I could conceive through karst areas would be to
                              utilize existing tubes and caves and count on their stability holding as
                              you widen them, prop them up with spray on concrete and wire mesh or
                              steel ribs and run the trains over tracks you install as you go.

                              This (based on knowledge and a little experience) strikes me as an
                              extremly hazardous venture, both for the crews doing the expansion
                              construction and track installation and for future passengers as the
                              secret subway commences voyages. Beyond cave ins and floods there would
                              also be ventilation and atmosphere issues similar to those experienced
                              in coal mines.

                              It is worth noting that when the Bureau of Mines acquired the Mt.
                              Weather site in 1933 it was as a played out mine which had been
                              exploited as far down as the owners thought safe and the Bureau of Mines
                              initially was using the site as an experimental site where new
                              techniques were to be tried. Much of what followed over the next few
                              decades was simple improvement of existing passages and facilities and
                              not too much of let's go deeper.

                              There is speculation (and some evidence based on the results of die
                              packs placed in underground streams) that many of the caves in the Blue
                              Ridge area interconnect somewhere if you just go deep enough or follow
                              that half inch crack far enough in, but to try to use that thought as
                              the basis for building a subway is insane. {Strangely some of the caves
                              with underground streams do not show evidence of local interconnection
                              and no one has any idea where those streams go.) Perhaps the mythical
                              cross continent subway is merely a secret subterranean submarine route
                              using underground stream connections?















                              Steve wrote:

                              >
                              >I, too, questioned the viability of these tunnels.
                              >
                              >Years ago I used to be a caver in VA and WV and one of our activities
                              >was blasting (small Tovex charges) to open sink holes and crawlways.
                              >Yes, yes, I know it sounds rather crazy but it was actually not as
                              >dangerous as it sounds to non-cavers. Anyway a fellow in the office
                              >heard of my cave digging/blasting activities. His reaction was to
                              >warn us that there were "all kinds of secret government tunnels" in WV
                              >and that our blasting would get us in trouble with the Feds. In this
                              >case, this guy's tunnels were for secret submarine testing!
                              >
                              >I agree with other skeptics that the geology along the line in
                              >question would be *extremely* difficult to tunnel through. Going
                              >through the limestone (karst) areas would be very rough due to voids
                              >and sinkholes which would cause collapses.
                              >
                              >--- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance" <lafrance@a...>
                              >wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >>Some rather fantastic assertions here; I would be very interested in
                              >>
                              >>
                              >seeing
                              >
                              >
                              >>any supporting evidence, but I'm not holding my breath:
                              >>http://cryptome.org/prez-tunnel.htm
                              >>
                              >>Albert
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Albert LaFrance
                              The David Taylor Model Basin (Naval Surface Warface Center, Carderock Division) has a good web site describing the various testing facilities they have, and
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 7, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The David Taylor Model Basin (Naval Surface Warface Center, Carderock
                                Division) has a good web site describing the various testing facilities they
                                have, and the research projects they're working on:
                                http://www50.dt.navy.mil/ .

                                Albert

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "paul rosa" <prosa@...>
                                To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 1:55 PM
                                Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Re: Secret presidential tunnel?


                                >
                                > Steve:
                                >
                                > The secret submarine testing is done on the north side of the Potomac
                                > River just upriver from the American Legion bridge on the Beltway at the
                                > David Taylor facility. Actually, they test all kinds of ship hull
                                > designs there. Inside the building, there is an almost half mile long
                                > basin of water where the models are tested. But the biggest secret is
                                > that they let the US National Whitewater team train there at night
                                > during the winter. Even though that should give the US a competitive
                                > edge, we don't seem to have garnered a whole lot of Olympic medals in
                                > that sport yet. Put perhaps we'll get there eventually. BTW,
                                > everything at David Taylor is above ground. There are no tunnels.
                                >
                                > Paul Rosa
                              • GG
                                If I remember correctly, (was long, long time ago :-) when the new FBI building was being built, the original plans called for a 5 level basement for
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 7, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  If I remember correctly, (was long, long time ago :-) when the "new" FBI
                                  building was being built, the original plans called for a 5 level basement
                                  for employee parking and other assorted uses. When the section I was
                                  working in moved into the "new" building, we were told that the contractors
                                  had hit a problem with water pouring into the dig just below the level of
                                  the 3rd floor of the basement and that was why the plans were scaled back to
                                  only three parking levels. The entire time I was there, had a continual
                                  problem with water seepage into the third (lowest) level. Rumor was that
                                  the contractors hit an underground river. Might be interesting to check out
                                  the hydrology underneath the District as well as the original blueprints for
                                  that building.
                                  73
                                  walt (lost in the Land of OZ)
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.