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Re: Mt. Pony documents

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  • John Warne
    Albert, GREAT information on your site. Wonder if the Deep Underground Command Center was ever built?
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 10, 1999
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      Albert,

      GREAT information on your site.

      Wonder if the Deep Underground Command Center was ever built?

      At 22:44 04/10/1999 -0400, you wrote, in part:
      >From: Albert LaFrance <ALaFrance@...>
      >
      >
      >The web page is at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ALaFrance .
      >It's intended to become a guide to the Cold War-era C3I infrastructure of
      >the Washington DC area. At the moment, it's a rather unstructured
      >"document dump", but it should give you some idea of my interests.
      >
      >...Albert
      >
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    • Mark Foster
      ... 1. In the documents about the DUCC what is the facility that was redacted from the document relative to current Command and Control Facilities. My guess
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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        At 10:44 PM 4/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
        >From: Albert LaFrance <ALaFrance@...>
        >
        >As some of you know, I recently had the good fortune to meet the Library of
        >Congress engineer in charge of converting the former Federal Reserve
        >facility at Mt. Pony (Culpeper, VA area) into an archive for the Library's
        >collection of valuable audio-visual materials. He very kindly furnished me
        >with documents about the facility, which I am scanning and posting on a
        >rudimentary web page.
        >
        >So far, I've posted a four-page brochure prepared by the real-estate firm
        >which sold the facility, and a 1975 booklet describing the facility's
        >former role as a switching center for Federal Reserve wire-transfer
        >operations. Coming soon is a more detailed description of the facility's
        >features and specifications.
        >
        >The web page is at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ALaFrance .
        >It's intended to become a guide to the Cold War-era C3I infrastructure of
        >the Washington DC area. At the moment, it's a rather unstructured
        >"document dump", but it should give you some idea of my interests.
        >

        1. In the documents about the DUCC what is the facility that was redacted
        from the document relative to current Command and Control Facilities. My
        guess is Mt. Weather.
      • Mark Foster
        ... Probably not as SAC also wanted a similar facility called the Super Combat Center (SCC) . The plan was nexed due to costs. I did come a cross a
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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          At 10:59 PM 4/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
          >From: John Warne <warnejw@...>
          >
          >Albert,
          >
          >GREAT information on your site.
          >
          >Wonder if the Deep Underground Command Center was ever built?
          >

          Probably not as SAC also wanted a similar facility called the "Super Combat
          Center (SCC)". The plan was nexed due to costs. I did come a cross a
          reference to Canadian SCC that was built in North Bay, Ontario. Does
          anyone know about the North Bay site?
        • Albert LaFrance
          ... The thing about those documents is that the deletions are fascinating in their own right! Since the sanitizing was done within the past two years,
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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            >1. In the documents about the DUCC what is the facility that was redacted
            >from the document relative to current Command and Control Facilities. My
            >guess is Mt. Weather.

            The thing about those documents is that the deletions are fascinating in
            their own right! Since the "sanitizing" was done within the past two
            years, whatever was deleted is probably still sensitive.

            There is a mechanism under E.O. 12958 for appealing those redactions. I've
            asked the LBJ Library, which provided the documents, how to begin that
            process.

            Your suggestion of Mt. Weather brings up an interesting possibility
            because, as far as I know, there's currently no publicly-acknowledged
            defense C3I role for that facility. Rather, the place is called the
            "Emergency Assistance Center", and it's nominally run by a civilian agency.
            If there were some "black" military function there, that would certainly
            explain the deletion.

            On the first page of the Memo for the President, check out the handwritten
            notation in the upper-right corner. Most of it is illegible, but I can
            make out the phrases "past efforts", "The Rock", and "High Point".

            "The Rock" is the ANMCC, (aka Raven Rock and Site R). "High Point" was Mt.
            Weather, or an Army interagency C3I facility within the Mt. Weather
            complex.

            ...Albert
          • CLDWARHIST@xxx.xxx
            A super combat center? Thats interesting... What really got me interested though was the mention of the SAC Deep Underground Facility, which the DUCC
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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              A super combat center? Thats interesting... What really got me interested
              though was the mention of the SAC Deep Underground Facility, which the DUCC
              documents indicate was built the year before DUCC was proposed.
              George
            • Mark Foster
              ... The Super Combat Center was proposed in 1959 and withdrawn in 1960. The Combat Operations Center (COC) (AKA 425L Program), began construction in 1961 and
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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                At 12:18 PM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
                >From: CLDWARHIST@...
                >
                >A super combat center? Thats interesting... What really got me interested
                >though was the mention of the SAC Deep Underground Facility, which the DUCC
                >documents indicate was built the year before DUCC was proposed.
                >George
                >

                The Super Combat Center was proposed in 1959 and withdrawn in 1960. The
                Combat Operations Center (COC) (AKA 425L Program), began construction in
                1961 and NORAD moved from Ent AFB to Cheyenne MT in 1965. I assume the SAC
                Deep Underground Facility you refer to is Cheyenne Mt.

                Cheyenne Mt. was never considered survivable in an all out nuclear
                exchange. Even as it was being built in 1961 the Post Attack Command and
                Control (PACCS) system was being developed. To make PACCS survivable the
                plan was to put a 5,000 foot deep command center under Offutt AFB near
                Omaha. Problems with this system caused the idea to be withdrawn in 1963.
                PACCS existed with a combination of semi hard ground facilities and PACCS
                aircraft. The only PACCS semi hardened facility that I know of is "The
                Notch" at Westover AFB (http://www1.shore.net/~mfoster/PACCS.htm). Efforts
                to find sister facilities at Barksdale AFB, March AFB and Offutt AFB have
                been unsuccessful.
              • CLDWARHIST@xxx.xxx
                In a message dated 4/11/99 12:56:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mfoster@shore.net writes:
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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                  In a message dated 4/11/99 12:56:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  mfoster@... writes:

                  << I assume the SAC
                  Deep Underground Facility you refer to is Cheyenne Mt. >>
                  No I dont believe so..Cheyenne Mt construction was only just starting when
                  the SAC Deep underground facility was built and Cheyenne has only been a
                  NORAD facility. DOD FY 65 Annual Report mentions planning began in 1966 or
                  so for a alternate NORAD COC which is at Lamar, Colorado.
                  George
                • Mark Foster
                  ... Are you saying a 3,500 foot deep SAC facility exists at Lamar? I don t believe any deep facility was ever built.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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                    At 01:10 PM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
                    >From: CLDWARHIST@...
                    >
                    >In a message dated 4/11/99 12:56:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    >mfoster@... writes:
                    >
                    ><< I assume the SAC
                    > Deep Underground Facility you refer to is Cheyenne Mt. >>
                    >No I dont believe so..Cheyenne Mt construction was only just starting when
                    >the SAC Deep underground facility was built and Cheyenne has only been a
                    >NORAD facility. DOD FY 65 Annual Report mentions planning began in 1966 or
                    >so for a alternate NORAD COC which is at Lamar, Colorado.
                    >George
                    >
                    Are you saying a 3,500 foot deep SAC facility exists at Lamar? I don't
                    believe any "deep" facility was ever built.
                  • CLDWARHIST@xxx.xxx
                    In a message dated 4/11/99 9:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mfoster@shore.net writes:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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                      In a message dated 4/11/99 9:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      mfoster@... writes:

                      << Are you saying a 3,500 foot deep SAC facility exists at Lamar? I don't
                      believe any "deep" facility was ever built. >>
                      No. I'm not sure how deep the SAC DEEPUNDERGROUND FACILITY was, and it was
                      pointed out to me by one very old man in Detroit that I have no proof it was
                      built.

                      I am saying that in Lamar, Colorado, NORAD built an alternate combat
                      operations center as a backup to Cheyenne Mountain, CO.
                      George
                    • Mark Foster
                      ... Not to belabor the point but from the official NORAD history web page: 18 Feb 82 -- Construction work began at Peterson AFB on the NORAD Cheyenne Mountain
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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                        At 09:11 PM 4/11/99 -0400, you wrote:
                        >From: CLDWARHIST@...
                        >
                        >In a message dated 4/11/99 9:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        >mfoster@... writes:
                        >
                        ><< Are you saying a 3,500 foot deep SAC facility exists at Lamar? I don't
                        > believe any "deep" facility was ever built. >>
                        >No. I'm not sure how deep the SAC DEEPUNDERGROUND FACILITY was, and it was
                        >pointed out to me by one very old man in Detroit that I have no proof it was
                        >built.
                        >
                        >I am saying that in Lamar, Colorado, NORAD built an alternate combat
                        >operations center as a backup to Cheyenne Mountain, CO.
                        >George

                        Not to belabor the point but from the official NORAD history web page:


                        18 Feb 82 -- Construction work began at Peterson AFB on the NORAD Cheyenne
                        Mountain command post backup facility.

                        15 Jul 82 -- The NORAD Combat Operations Center Backup Facility, on
                        Peterson AFB, achieved initial operational capability. It would assume
                        command and control functions from the CMC in case that facility
                        experienced a failure of was disabled under conditions short of nuclear war.

                        16 Nov 82 -- The NORAD Combat Operations Center Backup Facility reached
                        Full Operational Capability.
                      • CLDWARHIST@xxx.xxx
                        In a message dated 4/11/99 10:09:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mfoster@shore.net writes:
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 11, 1999
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                          In a message dated 4/11/99 10:09:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          mfoster@... writes:

                          << Not to belabor the point but from the official NORAD history web pag >>
                          Thats interesting...i wonder what happened to the one i was referring to (i
                          might not of already said it but the alternate Combat Ops Center was first
                          mentioned in 1965 when planning was given a "go-ahead", where as the Peterson
                          facility that Mark mentions began in 1982...)?
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