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DUCC redux?

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  • Albert LaFrance
    Check out this web site for the Army Corps of Engineers Protective Design Center: http://pdcunx.nwo.usace.army.mil/protective_design_center_history.htm In
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 20, 2000
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      Check out this web site for the Army Corps of Engineers Protective Design
      Center:

      http://pdcunx.nwo.usace.army.mil/protective_design_center_history.htm

      In particular, scroll down to the Table of Contents, and click on
      "Underground Center" in the section titled "Hardened Underground
      Facilities". I wonder if that classified project was a reincarnation of
      the Kennedy-era Deep Underground Command Center.

      ...Albert
    • Albert LaFrance
      I sent a similar e-mail yesterday, but I m not sure it actually went out. If it did, please forgive the duplication. This time, though, I ve included the
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 21, 2000
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        I sent a similar e-mail yesterday, but I'm not sure it actually went out.
        If it did, please forgive the duplication. This time, though, I've
        included the relevant paragraph from the USACE web site.

        Check out this web site for the Army Corps of Engineers Protective Design
        Center:

        http://pdcunx.nwo.usace.army.mil/protective_design_center_history.htm

        In particular, scroll down to the Table of Contents, and click on
        "Underground Center" in the section titled "Hardened Underground
        Facilities". I wonder if that classified project was a reincarnation of
        the Kennedy-era Deep Underground Command Center.

        The relevant text is:

        "Special Projects Office (later to become the Protective Design Center) was
        created in 1977 to work on a classified Department of Defense program. The
        Alternate National Military Command and Control Center Improvement Program
        involved criteria development, studies, and preliminary design of a deep
        underground highly hardened and survivable command and control center. The
        center included separate structures for command personnel, power, fuel, and
        water. Over 3 miles of air entrainment tunnels were required as well as
        access shafts to the surface.
        Although canceled in 1979, the experience, expertise, and leadership in
        protective design and classified programs that Special Projects gained from
        this work brought other unique projects and major programs to the
        District."

        ...Albert
      • Mike Jacobs
        ... Sure it was, it was canceled and replaced by a black program once the feasibility was demonstrated. (in my opinion) the experience, expertise, and
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 21, 2000
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          My thoughts on this:

          > "Special Projects Office (later to become the Protective Design Center) was
          > created in 1977 to work on a classified Department of Defense program. The
          > Alternate National Military Command and Control Center Improvement Program
          > involved criteria development, studies, and preliminary design of a deep
          > underground highly hardened and survivable command and control center. The
          > center included separate structures for command personnel, power, fuel, and
          > water. Over 3 miles of air entrainment tunnels were required as well as
          > access shafts to the surface.
          > Although canceled in 1979,

          Sure it was, it was canceled and replaced by a black program
          once the feasibility was demonstrated. (in my opinion)

          the experience, expertise, and leadership in
          > protective design and classified programs that Special Projects gained from
          > this work brought other unique projects and major programs to the
          > District."
          >

          Just my 2 cents.


          Mike Jacobs, N3YAV
          Antenna and RF Engineering Laboratory
          Penn State University
          State College, PA
        • Hooligan@aol.com
          ... The ... Program ... The ... MY opinion is that the original SPO/PDC RDT&E work was heavily classified, with specifics being black. When this program was
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 21, 2000
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            > From: "Mike Jacobs" <mwj116@...>
            >
            > My thoughts on this:
            >
            > > "Special Projects Office (later to become the Protective Design Center)
            > was
            > > created in 1977 to work on a classified Department of Defense program.
            The
            > > Alternate National Military Command and Control Center Improvement
            Program
            > > involved criteria development, studies, and preliminary design of a deep
            > > underground highly hardened and survivable command and control center.
            The
            > > center included separate structures for command personnel, power, fuel,
            > and
            > > water. Over 3 miles of air entrainment tunnels were required as well as
            > > access shafts to the surface.
            > > Although canceled in 1979,
            >
            > Sure it was, it was canceled and replaced by a black program
            > once the feasibility was demonstrated. (in my opinion)

            MY opinion is that the original SPO/PDC RDT&E work was heavily classified,
            with specifics being black. When this program was
            cancelled, the basics of the SPO/PDC work on it became unclassified, and thus
            available as a neat thing for the PDC to boast about on their web.

            I don't think it makes sense for the USACE to do all their work, determine
            it is feasible (which really had for the most part been done about 15 years
            earlier, per Albert's DUCC research), and then for the customer to cancel
            what it is reasonable to assume was already a special-access program, then
            replace it with another one.

            The USACE SPO/PDC would be involved either way, and assuming I'm right
            about the aforementioned program being classified, it doesn't make sense to
            me for them to drop it & then pick it up again. What's more likely is that
            just fewer people would be plugged-in to the construction & operational
            phases of the compartmented program.

            It may or may not be coincidence that in '79 when it was apparently
            dropped, the Nightwatch program was almost operational with the E-4Bs.
            Carter was one of the first Presidents since Kennedy to take a detailed
            interest in SIOP/Emergency Actions, but he was also pretty frugal when it
            came to spending $$.

            It is possible though that the quote on the web page is disinformation,
            perhaps a countermeasure attempt to negate a slight leak that occured
            regarding the SPO/PDC's initial contract in '77. However, I still don't think
            it's likely to cancel the SPO/PDC's efforts & then have 'em re-group & do it
            black.

            Tim
          • Julian Allason
            Tim wrote:- ... This is almost exactly what happened with the British Government s National Seat of Government (aka Government Wartime HQ etc) codenamed
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 22, 2000
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              Tim wrote:-

              > It is possible though that the quote on the web page is disinformation,
              >perhaps a countermeasure attempt to negate a slight leak that occured
              >regarding the SPO/PDC's initial contract in '77.

              This is almost exactly what happened with the British Government's
              National Seat of Government (aka Government Wartime HQ etc) codenamed
              BURLINGTON. Identification of the site in a book (Beneath the City
              Streets by Peter Laurie) in the seventies lead to a denial and
              disinformation programme that continued until very recently when a
              newspaper published an illustrated reconstruction of the complex -
              complete with pub! The history of the site at Corsham in Somerset was
              also the subject of a book entitled 'Secret Underground Cities' (by
              Camley) published last year. Even now responsible officials, serving and
              retired, continue to disavow it. There is some material on this topic on
              the RSG website and also at www.gn.apc.org/duncan/

              Julian
            • Albert LaFrance
              Tim, Well, it looks like the PDC may have suffered a sudden attack of modesty. For at least the past couple of days, Internet Explorer gives me a server
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 1, 2000
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                Tim,

                Well, it looks like the PDC may have suffered a sudden attack of modesty.
                For at least the past couple of days, Internet Explorer gives me a "server
                returned invalid or unrecognized response" message when I try to access the
                URL I gave earlier
                (http://pdcunx.nwo.usace.army.mil/protective_design_center_history.htm).

                I'm not a net expert and don't know exactly what that message means. Could
                it be that access to the site is now restricted? Maybe someone with a
                ".mil" account could give it a try.

                It may or may not be a coincidence that I e-mailed the PDC's
                hardened-structures contact person on Jan. 21, inquiring about the ANMCC
                project and its possible relationship with the DUCC proposal. I haven't
                received a reply, nor did I receive one to an inquiry last year about the
                DUCC. It kinda looks like they don't want to talk about such things...

                ...Albert

                From: Hooligan@...
                <SNIP>
                > MY opinion is that the original SPO/PDC RDT&E work was heavily
                classified,
                >with specifics being black. When this program was
                >cancelled, the basics of the SPO/PDC work on it became unclassified, and
                thus
                >available as a neat thing for the PDC to boast about on their web.
                <SNIP>
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