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AT&T NY

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  • ozob99 <ozob99@yahoo.com>
    I think this building is NY 7, but maybe NY 10/11..anyone know for sure? http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/nyteletr.html
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 29, 2003
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      I think this building is NY 7, but maybe NY 10/11..anyone know for
      sure?

      http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/nyteletr.html
    • dsandow <dsandow@garden.net>
      ... If you look at the next page picture at that site http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/tribeca.html you get a very nice view of 3 important buildings.
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 30, 2003
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        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "ozob99 <ozob99@y...>"
        <ozob99@y...> wrote:
        > I think this building is NY 7, but maybe NY 10/11..anyone know for
        > sure?
        >
        > http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/nyteletr.html

        If you look at the "next page" picture at that site
        http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/tribeca.html
        you get a very nice view of 3 important buildings.

        On the right, New York 10. Built in the early '70 as the second
        downtown building by Long Lines. The street running N-S just to the
        left (west) of NY10 is Church Street. One block east, and not visible
        in the photo, is Broadway.

        Note that the building is not symmetric. It has 4 "bays" on the west
        side, and 2 "bays" to the east. The east wall (not visible) is
        totally blank. The intent was to expand with a lateral addition to
        the east, so the final building would be symmetric. "4-2-4". With the
        addition, the building would have filled the entire block between
        Church and Broadway.

        When the building first opened, its address was 323 Broadway -
        anticipating that future expansion. At the time, the old storefronts
        on Braodway had not been acquired, and there was "real" a 323
        Broadway, a pizza parlor or barber shop or something.

        As crossbar gave way to ESS, the need for space was revisited, and the
        acquisition of the Broadway frontage was abandoned. Some years later,
        the "address" was change to Thomas Street, one of the cross-streets.

        At the top of the photo, the darker brick building is 32 Avenue of the
        Americas (6th Ave.) Built by NY Tel in the 1910's, it was shared by NY
        Tel (the WOrth and CAnal exchanges) and Long Lines. It started out as
        a 14 story building on the north side of the block (Lispenard Street)
        and over the years was expanded laterally to fill the whole block, and
        vertically, to 26 floors.

        The expansions made it predominantly a Long Lines building, housing
        major long distance switchboards, later the NY#4 crossbar, private
        line telephone and telegraph testboards (collectively, NY#1), overseas
        switchboards, the radio and TV operating centers for New York, and the
        "corporate" headquarters of the Long Lines Department.

        Since the closing of 195 Broadway and the Chippendale building on
        Madison Ave, it is now also the "official" corporate HQ of AT&T.

        To the left, the Western Union building. Same vintage as 32 AOTA, but
        MUCH more ornate inside. Now a commo condo.

        (NY7 is uptown, at the corner of 10th ave and 54th street. Built in
        the early 60's to diversify from NY4 with an uptown presence. The
        internet routers in the building very often show up in "traceroute" as
        NY54.)
      • ozob99 <ozob99@yahoo.com>
        ... visible ... west ... the ... storefronts ... the ... later, ... the ... NY ... as ... Street) ... and ... overseas ... the ... but ... as ... Thanks for
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 30, 2003
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          --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsandow <dsandow@g...>"
          <dsandow@g...> wrote:
          > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "ozob99 <ozob99@y...>"
          > <ozob99@y...> wrote:
          > > I think this building is NY 7, but maybe NY 10/11..anyone know for
          > > sure?
          > >
          > > http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/nyteletr.html
          >
          > If you look at the "next page" picture at that site
          > http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/tribeca.html
          > you get a very nice view of 3 important buildings.
          >
          > On the right, New York 10. Built in the early '70 as the second
          > downtown building by Long Lines. The street running N-S just to the
          > left (west) of NY10 is Church Street. One block east, and not
          visible
          > in the photo, is Broadway.
          >
          > Note that the building is not symmetric. It has 4 "bays" on the
          west
          > side, and 2 "bays" to the east. The east wall (not visible) is
          > totally blank. The intent was to expand with a lateral addition to
          > the east, so the final building would be symmetric. "4-2-4". With
          the
          > addition, the building would have filled the entire block between
          > Church and Broadway.
          >
          > When the building first opened, its address was 323 Broadway -
          > anticipating that future expansion. At the time, the old
          storefronts
          > on Braodway had not been acquired, and there was "real" a 323
          > Broadway, a pizza parlor or barber shop or something.
          >
          > As crossbar gave way to ESS, the need for space was revisited, and
          the
          > acquisition of the Broadway frontage was abandoned. Some years
          later,
          > the "address" was change to Thomas Street, one of the cross-streets.
          >
          > At the top of the photo, the darker brick building is 32 Avenue of
          the
          > Americas (6th Ave.) Built by NY Tel in the 1910's, it was shared by
          NY
          > Tel (the WOrth and CAnal exchanges) and Long Lines. It started out
          as
          > a 14 story building on the north side of the block (Lispenard
          Street)
          > and over the years was expanded laterally to fill the whole block,
          and
          > vertically, to 26 floors.
          >
          > The expansions made it predominantly a Long Lines building, housing
          > major long distance switchboards, later the NY#4 crossbar, private
          > line telephone and telegraph testboards (collectively, NY#1),
          overseas
          > switchboards, the radio and TV operating centers for New York, and
          the
          > "corporate" headquarters of the Long Lines Department.
          >
          > Since the closing of 195 Broadway and the Chippendale building on
          > Madison Ave, it is now also the "official" corporate HQ of AT&T.
          >
          > To the left, the Western Union building. Same vintage as 32 AOTA,
          but
          > MUCH more ornate inside. Now a commo condo.
          >
          > (NY7 is uptown, at the corner of 10th ave and 54th street. Built in
          > the early 60's to diversify from NY4 with an uptown presence. The
          > internet routers in the building very often show up in "traceroute"
          as
          > NY54.)


          Thanks for clearing that up, i believe the CLLI for NY10 included the
          "BW" for Broadway...and the NY 7 CLLI included the 54.

          Here is another site showing these buildings and some NYT/Verizon
          switch buildings:

          http://cryptome.org/nytel-eyeball.htm
        • Albert LaFrance
          In case it s of any help in this discussion, here s a list of the NYC offices shown on a 1970 Northeastern Area Assignment of Coaxials map: New York 3 (50th
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 30, 2003
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            In case it's of any help in this discussion, here's a list of the NYC
            offices shown on a 1970 Northeastern Area Assignment of Coaxials map:

            New York 3 (50th St.)
            New York 4 (32 Ave. of the Americas)
            New York 6 (no address shown)
            New York 7 (811 10th Ave.)
            New York AR (Albermarle Rd.)
            New York BX (no address shown)
            New York CT (W 18th St.)
            New York FH (no address shown)
            New York GT (E 13th St.)
            New York MD (E 37th St)
            New York WE (140 West St.)

            Albert



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <ozob99@...>
            To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:16 AM
            Subject: [coldwarcomms] AT&T NY


            > I think this building is NY 7, but maybe NY 10/11..anyone know for
            > sure?
            >
            > http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/nyteletr.html
          • Jim Burks
            ... I went through 811 10th Avenue several years ago when we were considering using it for web hosting. It s still an impressive facility. See:
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 30, 2003
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              Albert wrote:
              > New York 7 (811 10th Ave.)

              I went through 811 10th Avenue several years ago when we were
              considering using it for web hosting. It's still an impressive
              facility.

              See:
              <http://www.business.att.com/products/optiondetails.jsp?productId=ehs&op
              tion=ehs_idc>

              It's in a not-so-nice area of NYC, known as 'Hell's Kitchen',
              just west of Times Square, almost on the Hudson River. Set
              of KS horns on the roof that look like they are shooting
              East and West under a sort of architectural cover box, open
              on two sides. Building is built of extremely thick concrete.

              It's about 24 floors tall. The first sixteen were originally built
              for CO service, and the top eight were for operator positions.

              Tour guide said it was built as an International LD center.
              Operator positions since removed. Lower floors still long
              Distance voice, Internet data center (web hosting) on the
              former operator floors. Significant power rework required
              to get the AC power required up to the floors that were
              originally built for operators in a building that's mostly
              DC powered. Lots of elevators and restrooms for
              essentially a computer room.

              Guide said the building was one of 'a few' in Manhattan
              that the Secret Service would take the president to in
              case of a nuclear attack. See also msg 1516.

              They also said the building was built "as a national
              asset". They repeated those terms exactly. Anyone
              know what they mean by that? BTW, the plaque
              downstairs said it was built in 1964.
            • Doug Anderson
              No, but in all my years in the Air Force National Asset was a term used for stuff the snooped, like the U2 s, SR-71 s, KH-11 s, etc. as a national ... Doug
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 30, 2003
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                No, but in all my years in the Air Force "National Asset" was a term
                used for stuff the snooped, like the U2's, SR-71's, KH-11's, etc.

                "as a national
                > asset". They repeated those terms exactly. Anyone
                > know what they mean by that? BTW, the plaque
                > downstairs said it was built in 1964.
                >

                Doug Anderson
              • Jim Burks
                More on 811 10th - I found the Skyscrapers site I had been to a while back. I didn t realize it had this many AT&T buildings - they are not the tallest in
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 30, 2003
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                  More on 811 10th - I found the Skyscrapers site I had been to a
                  while back. I didn't realize it had this many AT&T buildings -
                  they are not the tallest in NYC...

                  Sorry about the multiple posts.

                  Jim Burks

                  Picture of AT&T’s 811 10th avenue at:
                  http://www.skyscrapers.com/english/wm/bu/?id=116258

                  Other AT&T buildings in NYC:
                  http://www.skyscrapers.com/english/wm/bu/search.html?id=101028&txt=at%26
                  t

                  Verizon centers in NYC:
                  http://www.skyscrapers.com/english/wm/bu/search.html?id=101028&txt=veriz
                  on

                  I think this is Verizon West Street (damaged in WTC attack):
                  http://www.skyscrapers.com/english/wm/bu/?id=115541
                • ozob99 <ozob99@yahoo.com>
                  ... If not an internal euphemism it might refer to a gov t subsidy,direct or indirect,in building the facility the way it was/is.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 30, 2003
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                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Doug Anderson <CrewRest1@c...>
                    wrote:
                    > No, but in all my years in the Air Force "National Asset" was a term
                    > used for stuff the snooped, like the U2's, SR-71's, KH-11's, etc.
                    >
                    > "as a national
                    > > asset". They repeated those terms exactly. Anyone
                    > > know what they mean by that? BTW, the plaque
                    > > downstairs said it was built in 1964.
                    > >
                    >
                    > Doug Anderson

                    If not an internal euphemism it might refer to a gov't subsidy,direct
                    or indirect,in building the facility the way it was/is.
                  • dsandow <dsandow@garden.net>
                    ... Long Lines used this NYTel building as an uptown location before NY7 was built. Some long distance K-carrier came in here, and was used for Private Line.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance"
                      <albertjlafrance@c...> wrote:
                      > In case it's of any help in this discussion, here's a list of the NYC
                      > offices shown on a 1970 Northeastern Area Assignment of Coaxials map:
                      >
                      > New York 3 (50th St.)
                      Long Lines used this NYTel building as an uptown location before NY7
                      was built. Some long distance K-carrier came in here, and was used
                      for Private Line. There was a Private line (voice) testboard, but it
                      was never big enough for the growing midtown load.

                      > New York 4 (32 Ave. of the Americas)
                      > New York 6 (no address shown)
                      > New York 7 (811 10th Ave.)
                      > New York AR (Albermarle Rd.) Brooklyn
                      > New York BX (no address shown) Bronx Tandem
                      > New York CT (W 18th St.) Chelsea Tandem
                      > New York FH (no address shown) Forest Hills (Queens)
                      > New York GT (E 13th St.) Gotham Tandem
                      > New York MD (E 37th St)
                      > New York WE (140 West St.) Vesey Tandem

                      The tandems were all NY Tel Crossbar Tandems that concentrated traffic
                      at various parts of the city. They were all furnished with long-haul
                      circuits to nearby places (Boston, Phila, etc.) if they could justify
                      a minimum trunk group size (12) and keep the pressure off NY4 and NY7.
                      They were all "class 4" toll center offices, and were appropriately
                      trunked for interstate traffic. We tend to forget that NYC had 7
                      million population, which made it bigger than many states, so having
                      toll centers scattered around the city was not unreasonable. NY4/7
                      handled only a small portion of the LD traffic from the city.
                    • dsandow <dsandow@garden.net>
                      ... After viewing this additional page, I would like to revise my prior description of NY10. Those 4+2 things I called bays are really fortress-like
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                        > >
                        > > Note that the building is not symmetric. It has 4 "bays" on the
                        > west
                        > > side, and 2 "bays" to the east. The east wall (not visible) is
                        > > totally blank. The intent was to expand with a lateral addition to
                        > > the east, so the final building would be symmetric. "4-2-4". With
                        > the
                        > > addition, the building would have filled the entire block between
                        > > Church and Broadway.

                        >
                        > Thanks for clearing that up, i believe the CLLI for NY10 included the
                        > "BW" for Broadway...and the NY 7 CLLI included the 54.
                        >
                        > Here is another site showing these buildings and some NYT/Verizon
                        > switch buildings:
                        >
                        > http://cryptome.org/nytel-eyeball.htm

                        -----------

                        After viewing this additional page, I would like to revise my prior
                        description of NY10.

                        Those 4+2 things I called "bays" are really "fortress-like
                        crenellations". I never knew.....
                      • ozob99 <ozob99@yahoo.com>
                        ... to ... With ... between ... the ... Be advised that any of the solid intervals between crenellations of a battlement are known as merlons:)
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                          --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsandow <dsandow@g...>"
                          <dsandow@g...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > >
                          > > > Note that the building is not symmetric. It has 4 "bays" on the
                          > > west
                          > > > side, and 2 "bays" to the east. The east wall (not visible) is
                          > > > totally blank. The intent was to expand with a lateral addition
                          to
                          > > > the east, so the final building would be symmetric. "4-2-4".
                          With
                          > > the
                          > > > addition, the building would have filled the entire block
                          between
                          > > > Church and Broadway.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for clearing that up, i believe the CLLI for NY10 included
                          the
                          > > "BW" for Broadway...and the NY 7 CLLI included the 54.
                          > >
                          > > Here is another site showing these buildings and some NYT/Verizon
                          > > switch buildings:
                          > >
                          > > http://cryptome.org/nytel-eyeball.htm
                          >
                          > -----------
                          >
                          > After viewing this additional page, I would like to revise my prior
                          > description of NY10.
                          >
                          > Those 4+2 things I called "bays" are really "fortress-like
                          > crenellations". I never knew.....

                          Be advised that any of the solid intervals between crenellations of a
                          battlement are known as merlons:)
                        • ozob99 <ozob99@yahoo.com>
                          ... to ... With ... between ... the ... Be advised that any of the solid intervals between crenellations of a battlement are known as merlons:)
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsandow <dsandow@g...>"
                            <dsandow@g...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > >
                            > > > Note that the building is not symmetric. It has 4 "bays" on the
                            > > west
                            > > > side, and 2 "bays" to the east. The east wall (not visible) is
                            > > > totally blank. The intent was to expand with a lateral addition
                            to
                            > > > the east, so the final building would be symmetric. "4-2-4".
                            With
                            > > the
                            > > > addition, the building would have filled the entire block
                            between
                            > > > Church and Broadway.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for clearing that up, i believe the CLLI for NY10 included
                            the
                            > > "BW" for Broadway...and the NY 7 CLLI included the 54.
                            > >
                            > > Here is another site showing these buildings and some NYT/Verizon
                            > > switch buildings:
                            > >
                            > > http://cryptome.org/nytel-eyeball.htm
                            >
                            > -----------
                            >
                            > After viewing this additional page, I would like to revise my prior
                            > description of NY10.
                            >
                            > Those 4+2 things I called "bays" are really "fortress-like
                            > crenellations". I never knew.....

                            Be advised that any of the solid intervals between crenellations of a
                            battlement are known as merlons:)
                          • dsandow <dsandow@garden.net>
                            ... I m not sure about the story of operators in the building. First, the neighborhood - the north end of Hell s Kitchen. Cleanup began at the south end with
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Burks" <jburks2@m...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Albert wrote:
                              >>
                              > It's in a not-so-nice area of NYC, known as 'Hell's Kitchen',
                              > just west of Times Square, almost on the Hudson River. Set
                              > of KS horns on the roof that look like they are shooting
                              > East and West under a sort of architectural cover box, open
                              > on two sides. Building is built of extremely thick concrete.
                              >
                              > It's about 24 floors tall. The first sixteen were originally built
                              > for CO service, and the top eight were for operator positions.
                              >
                              > Tour guide said it was built as an International LD center.

                              ------------------------------

                              I'm not sure about the story of "operators" in the building.

                              First, the neighborhood - the north end of Hell's Kitchen. Cleanup
                              began at the south end with the Javits Center, but never got that far
                              north. NY7 was deliberately built way over on the West Side - far from
                              other tall buildings - to give it the best "visibility" for the MW
                              shots and minimize the chance of interfering buildings popping up.

                              The nearest subway stop is a few long blocks away. There was NO
                              SHOPPING anywhere nearby (and still isn't). Not the place you would
                              concentrate operators 24 hours a day.

                              In the '60s, operator pay scales were way below competing jobs in the
                              New York market. Operator turnover (LL&NYT) was VERY high (50% <= 1
                              year), and the phone companies were bending over backward to retain
                              operators with amenities - cafeterias, WINDOWS, medical office (at
                              32AOTA, the medical office employed an OBGYN, for the convenience of
                              the operators.) In the 54th St neighborhood, it would be impossible
                              to recruit operators in the '60s for the pay scales and lack of ambience.

                              The Long Lines long-distance operators were history (thanks to DDD).
                              The New York Overseas operators (at 32AOTA- subway in basement) were
                              augmented by new centers at Pittsburg and Jax - for diversity and
                              "easier" labor markets. Ultimately, the remaining overseas operators
                              were moved to NY10 (Thomas Street) with the demise of the NY4 4XB, but
                              never to NY7.

                              AFAIK, in the first 15 years of its life (65-80 - the end of the
                              crossbar era), the NY7 4XB was never equipped for overseas signalling,
                              and therefore, could not support either overseas trunks or an overseas
                              operating center.

                              There were a few NYTel tandems in the 811 10th building, and they
                              might have had operator positions attached, but not 8 floors worth.

                              I think you heard a myth.
                              -----------------

                              > Guide said the building was one of 'a few' in Manhattan
                              > that the Secret Service would take the president to in
                              > case of a nuclear attack. See also msg 1516.

                              Well, maybe. It was "slightly hardened", but well within the blast
                              radius of a nuke delivered to Times Square. The NY Echo-Fox
                              transmitter was at 811, but that's the only POTUS connection I know of.

                              > They also said the building was built "as a national
                              > asset". They repeated those terms exactly. Anyone
                              > know what they mean by that?

                              The "assets" were the hardened junction/Autovon offices built
                              underground 40 miles away. Another myth.

                              > BTW, the plaque
                              > downstairs said it was built in 1964.

                              In January, 1963, I rode a construction hoist up the outside of the
                              building, then climbed open steel to the microwave deck. Purpose was
                              to use a transit to confirm line-of-sight for the planned microwave
                              shots. (Does that mean they would move the building if it didn't work
                              out? I never asked.) So allow 18 months after that to close up the
                              building and install equipment. 1964 would be correct.

                              Dennis
                            • dsandow <dsandow@garden.net>
                              ... Due to the franchise and tax laws in NY City at the time, 811 10th (and ALL Long Lines buildings in NYC) was actually built by and owned by New York Tel.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                                --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "ozob99 <ozob99@y...>"
                                <ozob99@y...> wrote:
                                > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, Doug Anderson <CrewRest1@c...>
                                > wrote:
                                > > No, but in all my years in the Air Force "National Asset" was a term
                                > > used for stuff the snooped, like the U2's, SR-71's, KH-11's, etc.
                                > >
                                > > "as a national
                                > > > asset". They repeated those terms exactly. Anyone
                                > > > know what they mean by that? BTW, the plaque
                                > > > downstairs said it was built in 1964.
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > Doug Anderson
                                >
                                > If not an internal euphemism it might refer to a gov't subsidy,direct
                                > or indirect,in building the facility the way it was/is.

                                ----------------------

                                Due to the franchise and tax laws in NY City at the time, 811 10th
                                (and ALL Long Lines buildings in NYC) was actually built by and owned
                                by New York Tel. Long Lines paid for use of the buildings through the
                                magic of "Division of Revenues" between interstate and intrastate.
                                The accounting processes involved had no line-items for gov't
                                subsidies. The building was paid for by ALL the customers who made
                                long distance calls.

                                The Gov't may have paid for "special construction" at the underground
                                sites, and paid "special tariff" rates for their own unique services.
                                But basically, hardening was done by AT&T in the public interest, and
                                to solidify its position as a benevolent monopoly with the Congress
                                and the regulators. (20 years later, it didn't work out.)
                              • ozob99 <ozob99@yahoo.com>
                                - ... owned ... the ... Franchise laws also made an unusual situation in Chicago,or maybe the state of IL;I recall being told that Long Lines employees there
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                                  -
                                  >
                                  > Due to the franchise and tax laws in NY City at the time, 811 10th
                                  > (and ALL Long Lines buildings in NYC) was actually built by and
                                  owned
                                  > by New York Tel. Long Lines paid for use of the buildings through
                                  the
                                  > magic of "Division of Revenues" between interstate and intrastate.
                                  > The accounting processes involved had no line-items for gov't
                                  > subsidies. The building was paid for by ALL the customers who made
                                  > long distance calls.


                                  Franchise laws also made an unusual situation in Chicago,or maybe the
                                  state of IL;I recall being told that Long Lines employees there had to
                                  be permanently "loaned" to IL Bell, and their paychecks were from Il
                                  Bell.


                                  >
                                  > The Gov't may have paid for "special construction" at the
                                  underground
                                  > sites, and paid "special tariff" rates for their own unique
                                  services.



                                  The gov't did pay big bucks for various "special construction" via
                                  tariffs of record, and i suspect some was buried in "black budgets" on
                                  both sides;and perhaps some clandestine "quid pro quo" icw regulatory
                                  or provision of service matters.


                                  > But basically, hardening was done by AT&T in the public interest,
                                  and
                                  > to solidify its position as a benevolent monopoly with the Congress
                                  > and the regulators. (20 years later, it didn't work out.)


                                  This was of course the prudent thing to do,and i'm sure most of the
                                  costs was recouped in rate increases based on factors including
                                  various expenses,including hardening not in "special construction".
                                • Jim Burks
                                  ... I m not either - but that s what the tour guide said. going from memory, he said that the first 16 were switching equipment, and the top 8 were for
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                                    dsandow wrote:

                                    > I'm not sure about the story of "operators" in the building.

                                    I'm not either - but that's what the tour guide said.
                                    going from memory, he said that the first 16 were switching
                                    equipment, and the top 8 were for operator positions.
                                    That's also where the building narrows. Pictures don't show
                                    it well, but the building narrows at that point.

                                    I did observe a bank of 6-8 elevators for personnel, and one
                                    freight elevator. Tour guide said the elevators were redundant,
                                    without the personnel.

                                    One elevator was taken out of service, and the shaft crudely
                                    refitted as a generator exhaust for the web hosting stuff
                                    on the top floors. Ceilings were low in the web hosting area.

                                    The web hosting generators and power stuff were on the 2nd
                                    floor. It had previously been a garage for quite a number
                                    of cars - the yellow paint stripes marking the spaces
                                    were still on the concrete under the gensets.

                                    Quite a bit of power work to 1) double or triple the amount
                                    of power required for the building, and having to do
                                    120/240v power where everything was built for 48v.

                                    Since I was there to see web hosting, that's the place
                                    my tour guides had the authority to take me. I asked about
                                    seeing the switching floors, but they couldn't find
                                    anyone in Long Lines to do the tour.

                                    > First, the neighborhood - the north end of Hell's Kitchen.

                                    It is a really bad neighborhood. Looks like Times Square did
                                    before they renovated it.

                                    > In the '60s, operator pay scales were way below competing jobs..

                                    > The Long Lines long-distance operators were history ..

                                    > There were a few NYTel tandems in the 811 10th building, and they
                                    > might have had operator positions attached, but not 8 floors worth.

                                    > I think you heard a myth.

                                    Probably. At the time, I came to a different assumption, based on
                                    *some kind of positions* in the building, the statement that
                                    the building was built as a concentration point for International
                                    calls, and the 'national assets' statement. I thought it might
                                    be some kind of 'national asset' involving foreign languages, etc.

                                    Absolutely *nothing* concrete to base that assumption on.

                                    At that time, trunking a large number of circuits down to Ft. Meade
                                    would be pretty expensive. As well as extending control from
                                    Meade back to NYC.
                                    -----------------

                                    >> Guide said the building was one of 'a few' in Manhattan
                                    >> that the Secret Service would take the president to in
                                    >> case of a nuclear attack. See also msg 1516.

                                    > Well, maybe.  It was "slightly hardened", but well within the blast
                                    > radius of a nuke delivered to Times Square.  The NY Echo-Fox
                                    > transmitter was at 811, but that's the only POTUS connection I know
                                    of.

                                    Certainly within the blast radius from Times Square. Might survive
                                    something hitting Wall Street or lower, depending on the size.

                                    If I were in NYC when the balloon went up, the basement of this
                                    building is where I would want to be.

                                    > I think you heard a myth.

                                    Probably. Effect of too much reading ColdWarComms. <grin>

                                    Jim Burks
                                  • ozob99 <ozob99@yahoo.com>
                                    ... I spent a day in the Camden NJ CO in 1984 doing an audit & that area was really bad news; when techs did go outside for lunch to fast food down the st,
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 31, 2003
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                                      ---
                                      > It's in a not-so-nice area of NYC, known as 'Hell's Kitchen',
                                      > just west of Times Square, almost on the Hudson River. Set
                                      > of KS horns on the roof that look like they are shooting
                                      > East and West under a sort of architectural cover box, open
                                      > on two sides. Building is built of extremely thick concrete.
                                      >

                                      I spent a day in the Camden NJ CO in 1984 doing an audit & that area
                                      was really bad news; when techs did go outside for lunch to fast food
                                      down the st, they went in groups of 5 or more;i asked what do you at
                                      lunch time since its not safe outside?..they answered : "watch the
                                      locals strip cars in the neighborhood".

                                      I'm sure there are many other locations with similar stories.
                                    • s92187 <tmichaels@tower-sites.com>
                                      ... area ... food ... at ... Another one was Chicago #3, which was located on W. 76th Street between S. Stewart Avenue and S. Eggleston Avenue on Chicago s
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Feb 2 1:17 PM
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                                        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "ozob99 <ozob99@y...>"
                                        <ozob99@y...> wrote:
                                        > ---

                                        > I spent a day in the Camden NJ CO in 1984 doing an audit & that
                                        area
                                        > was really bad news; when techs did go outside for lunch to fast
                                        food
                                        > down the st, they went in groups of 5 or more;i asked what do you
                                        at
                                        > lunch time since its not safe outside?..they answered : "watch the
                                        > locals strip cars in the neighborhood".
                                        >
                                        > I'm sure there are many other locations with similar stories.

                                        Another one was Chicago #3, which was located on W. 76th Street
                                        between S. Stewart Avenue and S. Eggleston Avenue on Chicago's south
                                        side, a VERY nasty neighborhood. A now retired AT&T employee
                                        recently told me that a security guard employed by AT&T was shot and
                                        killed while walking a female employee to a nearby bus stop, at that
                                        time security guards were escorting AT&T employees to and from the
                                        premises on a regular basis.

                                        Chicago #3 had microwave links to Lemont and Tinley Park, IL, along
                                        with several L coax and K carrier connections. When Chicago #3 was
                                        decommissioned (early '70s, as best as I can tell), the horn antennas
                                        at Lemont and Tinley Park that were originally aimed at Chicago #3
                                        were not removed, instead it appears they were re-oriented to the
                                        newly built Chicago #6 in downtown Chicago.

                                        Also, I was told that the employment arrangement mentioned in post
                                        #5177 regarding Long Lines employees working in Chicago is correct.

                                        Terry Michaels
                                      • Albert LaFrance
                                        That page links to another interesting photo, showing three of the great buildings of telecom history - Long Lines, AT&T, and Western Union s 60 Hudson St. -
                                        Message 19 of 19 , May 31, 2003
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                                          That page links to another interesting photo, showing three of the great
                                          buildings of telecom history - Long Lines, AT&T, and Western
                                          Union's 60 Hudson St. - together in one aerial image:
                                          http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/tribeca.html

                                          Albert

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: <ozob99@...>
                                          To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 11:16 AM
                                          Subject: [coldwarcomms] AT&T NY


                                          > I think this building is NY 7, but maybe NY 10/11..anyone know for
                                          > sure?
                                          >
                                          > http://www.greatgridlock.net/NYC_Images/nyteletr.html
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