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Re: [coldwarcomms] Horns

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  • blitz
    MCI made use of these as well, especially in crowded urban areas. I Had a shot in Syracuse NY that went to a downtown building, and MCI had a nice big new
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 30, 2002
      MCI made use of these as well, especially in crowded urban areas. I Had a
      shot in Syracuse NY that went to a downtown building, and MCI had a nice
      big new antenna of this type there. (1985) By this time, most everyone (ATT
      included) went to radomed parabolic dishes.

      At 11:45 12/30/02 -0500, you wrote:
      >The KS-15676 horn-reflector described in the BSP is the most commonly-seen
      >antenna at former Long Lines sites. I don't think 2 GHz links were ever a
      >substantial part of the network. The original AT&T long-haul microwave
      >links were in the 4 GHz band (using Western Electric TD-series equipment).
      >Later, 6 GHz (TH-series) radios were installed as "overbuilds" to provide
      >additional capacity on certain routes. 11 GHz radios were also added on
      >some routes for short-haul service.
      >
      >The horn-reflector antenna could accommodate all three of these bands, in
      >two polarizations. Some AT&T stations had conical horn-reflectors of the
      >type made by Andrew, Gabriel Electronics, and Antennas for Communications.
      >I believe these had similar performance specs to the KS-15676.
      >
      >Regarding weight of the pyramidal horn-reflector, I've heard various
      >figures. Some AT&T publications say about 2,000 lb., while another BSP
      >gives a shipping weight of about 3,500 lb. A tower contractor on the
      >Tower-Pro list measured one at 5,000 lb. on his crane's load indicator; I
      >believe that included an expanded-metal ice shield and frame.
      >
      >I was given some dimensional drawings of the horn which I'll post. I know
      >the height is about 20 ft., and the width across the broadest part of the
      >face is about 8-9 ft.
      >
      >Albert
      >
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "David Lesher" <wb8foz@...>
      >To: "Coldwar" <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 10:40 AM
      >Subject: [coldwarcomms] Horns
      >
      >
      > > Err..
      > > <http://longlines.addr.com/tech-equip/radio/BSP402421100/p01.html>
      > > is for 4Ghz/6/11 horns.
      > >
      > > I suspect most out there are 2Ghz.
      > >
      > > Plus, I was disappointed not to find what I really wanted --
      > > size and weight of one!
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • dsss_communications <dsss_communications
      I spent New Years day traveling around the Montana countryside and - what else - blew the whole day visiting old AT&T microwave sites. Far better than waking
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 1, 2003
        I spent New Years day traveling around the Montana countryside and -
        what else - blew the whole day visiting old AT&T microwave sites.
        Far better than waking up with a hangover!

        While at one site, I took some time to study the ubiquitous diplexer
        that is housed under the mesh ice shield at the bottom of the tower.
        As I examined it I noticed three sizes of waveguide running up to the
        diplexer. Further inspection revealed that the single, circular
        waveguide running up to the KS-15676 horn was carrying 4, 6 AND 11
        GHz signals! On top of that, they were using both polarization modes
        for all three frequencies which resulted in 6 waveguides feeding into
        a single diplexer..., er triplexer, in this case.

        Now, I realize that one must stay away from the lower cutoff mode in
        a waveguide but I never thought that you could get acceptable
        performance from a low-frequency waveguide at appreciably higher
        frequencies. AT&T engineers managed to do this. I seriously doubt
        if any of the younger microwave engineers coming out of school
        nowadays would even think of tackling a project like this.

        Of course, they did dedicate each horn for either transmitting or
        receiving (which is the reason for two horns pointing in one
        direction for each route) so I guess things must have been behaving
        well enough to allow such a wide frequency spread. This must also
        have been made possible when AT&T was allowed to increase their
        transmit power from 0.5 watts to 5.0 watts in 1973 which would have
        overcome any system losses incurred from such a feat.

        Greg

        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance"
        <albertjlafrance@c...> wrote:
        > The KS-15676 horn-reflector described in the BSP is the most
        commonly-seen
        > antenna at former Long Lines sites. I don't think 2 GHz links were
        ever a
        > substantial part of the network. The original AT&T long-haul
        microwave
        > links were in the 4 GHz band (using Western Electric TD-series
        equipment).
        > Later, 6 GHz (TH-series) radios were installed as "overbuilds" to
        provide
        > additional capacity on certain routes. 11 GHz radios were also
        added on
        > some routes for short-haul service.
        >
        > The horn-reflector antenna could accommodate all three of these
        bands, in
        > two polarizations. Some AT&T stations had conical horn-reflectors
        of the
        > type made by Andrew, Gabriel Electronics, and Antennas for
        Communications.
        > I believe these had similar performance specs to the KS-15676.
        >
        > Regarding weight of the pyramidal horn-reflector, I've heard various
        > figures. Some AT&T publications say about 2,000 lb., while another
        BSP
        > gives a shipping weight of about 3,500 lb. A tower contractor on
        the
        > Tower-Pro list measured one at 5,000 lb. on his crane's load
        indicator; I
        > believe that included an expanded-metal ice shield and frame.
        >
        > I was given some dimensional drawings of the horn which I'll post.
        I know
        > the height is about 20 ft., and the width across the broadest part
        of the
        > face is about 8-9 ft.
        >
        > Albert
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "David Lesher" <wb8foz@n...>
        > To: "Coldwar" <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 10:40 AM
        > Subject: [coldwarcomms] Horns
        >
        >
        > > Err..
        > > <http://longlines.addr.com/tech-equip/radio/BSP402421100/p01.html>
        > > is for 4Ghz/6/11 horns.
        > >
        > > I suspect most out there are 2Ghz.
        > >
        > > Plus, I was disappointed not to find what I really wanted --
        > > size and weight of one!
      • s92187 <tmichaels@tower-sites.com>
        ... in ... Hi Greg: You can certainly run higher frequencies through a given run of waveguide, in fact the loss due to adsorption/attenuation decreases as you
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 2, 2003
          --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsss_communications
          <dsss_communications@y...>" <dsss_communications@y...> wrote:
          > I spent New Years day traveling around the Montana countryside and -

          >
          > Now, I realize that one must stay away from the lower cutoff mode
          in
          > a waveguide but I never thought that you could get acceptable
          > performance from a low-frequency waveguide at appreciably higher
          > frequencies. AT&T engineers managed to do this. I seriously doubt
          > if any of the younger microwave engineers coming out of school
          > nowadays would even think of tackling a project like this.
          >
          >
          > Greg
          >

          Hi Greg:

          You can certainly run higher frequencies through a given run of
          waveguide, in fact the loss due to adsorption/attenuation decreases
          as you go higher from the lower cutoff frequency, which is an
          advantage. Where you get into trouble is multimoding, which
          unfortunately gets worse as you go higher in frequency. A bend in
          the waveguide, or a discontinuity at a joint between waveguide
          sections, can cause mode conversion from the dominant mode to higher
          modes. To avoid this AT&T took great care to keep the vertical
          waveguide runs on their towers as straight as possible, any bends at
          all must be done as gradual, sweeping curves. If the rate of
          curvature in a given length of waveguide is gentle enough, mode
          conversion is avoided, even up to 11 GHz. If you look up from the
          base of one of their towers, that is exactly what you see: the
          waveguide from the bottom of the horn antenna runs straight down
          until it meets the side of the tower, at that point it then gradually
          bends outward to match the slope of the tower face, and then runs
          parallel to the tower down to the bottom. Any residual mode
          conversion was usually cleaned up by inserting a mode filter into the
          waveguide run at one end.

          Terry Michaels
        • Paul J Zawada <paul_zawada@yahoo.com>
          Hi Greg... Did you happen to take any photos of that 3-band triplexer? A while back I put a couple of photos of a dual-polarization, dual-band (4- GHz and
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 2, 2003
            Hi Greg...

            Did you happen to take any photos of that 3-band triplexer? A while
            back I put a couple of photos of a dual-polarization, dual-band (4-
            GHz and 6-GHz) circular-to-rectangular transition (diplexer) in the
            files area of the Yahoo Groups coldwarcomms page. (It's in the Files
            > Equipment directory) Unfortunately, I've never taken photos of the
            3-band unit... It would be interesting to compare the two. That
            triplexer must be one long piece of hardware!

            I have to agree, the passive microwave networks are arguably the
            neatest pieces of hardware that Bell Labs/WECo developed for the Long
            Lines microwave network. They certainly don't build them like that
            anymore!

            --zawada


            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsss_communications
            <dsss_communications@y...>" <dsss_communications@y...> wrote:
            > I spent New Years day traveling around the Montana countryside and -

            > what else - blew the whole day visiting old AT&T microwave sites.
            > Far better than waking up with a hangover!
            >
            > While at one site, I took some time to study the ubiquitous
            diplexer
            > that is housed under the mesh ice shield at the bottom of the
            tower.
            > As I examined it I noticed three sizes of waveguide running up to
            the
            > diplexer. Further inspection revealed that the single, circular
            > waveguide running up to the KS-15676 horn was carrying 4, 6 AND 11
            > GHz signals! On top of that, they were using both polarization
            modes
            > for all three frequencies which resulted in 6 waveguides feeding
            into
            > a single diplexer..., er triplexer, in this case.
            >
            > Now, I realize that one must stay away from the lower cutoff mode
            in
            > a waveguide but I never thought that you could get acceptable
            > performance from a low-frequency waveguide at appreciably higher
            > frequencies. AT&T engineers managed to do this. I seriously doubt
            > if any of the younger microwave engineers coming out of school
            > nowadays would even think of tackling a project like this.
            >
            > Of course, they did dedicate each horn for either transmitting or
            > receiving (which is the reason for two horns pointing in one
            > direction for each route) so I guess things must have been behaving
            > well enough to allow such a wide frequency spread. This must also
            > have been made possible when AT&T was allowed to increase their
            > transmit power from 0.5 watts to 5.0 watts in 1973 which would have
            > overcome any system losses incurred from such a feat.
            >
            > Greg
            >
          • dsss_communications <dsss_communications
            ... and - ... doubt ... higher ... at ... gradually ... the ... Thanks, Terry! I now understand the reason for the careful straight runs. Another interesting
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 2, 2003
              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "s92187 <tmichaels@t...>"
              <tmichaels@t...> wrote:
              > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsss_communications
              > <dsss_communications@y...>" <dsss_communications@y...> wrote:
              > > I spent New Years day traveling around the Montana countryside
              and -
              >
              > >
              > > Now, I realize that one must stay away from the lower cutoff mode
              > in
              > > a waveguide but I never thought that you could get acceptable
              > > performance from a low-frequency waveguide at appreciably higher
              > > frequencies. AT&T engineers managed to do this. I seriously
              doubt
              > > if any of the younger microwave engineers coming out of school
              > > nowadays would even think of tackling a project like this.
              > >
              > >
              > > Greg
              > >
              >
              > Hi Greg:
              >
              > You can certainly run higher frequencies through a given run of
              > waveguide, in fact the loss due to adsorption/attenuation decreases
              > as you go higher from the lower cutoff frequency, which is an
              > advantage. Where you get into trouble is multimoding, which
              > unfortunately gets worse as you go higher in frequency. A bend in
              > the waveguide, or a discontinuity at a joint between waveguide
              > sections, can cause mode conversion from the dominant mode to
              higher
              > modes. To avoid this AT&T took great care to keep the vertical
              > waveguide runs on their towers as straight as possible, any bends
              at
              > all must be done as gradual, sweeping curves. If the rate of
              > curvature in a given length of waveguide is gentle enough, mode
              > conversion is avoided, even up to 11 GHz. If you look up from the
              > base of one of their towers, that is exactly what you see: the
              > waveguide from the bottom of the horn antenna runs straight down
              > until it meets the side of the tower, at that point it then
              gradually
              > bends outward to match the slope of the tower face, and then runs
              > parallel to the tower down to the bottom. Any residual mode
              > conversion was usually cleaned up by inserting a mode filter into
              the
              > waveguide run at one end.
              >
              > Terry Michaels

              Thanks, Terry!

              I now understand the reason for the careful straight runs.

              Another interesting observation is that they never brazed any of
              their circular waveguide to the flanges. Each end was threaded and
              screwed on to each flange using a reasonably fine thread. You cannot
              see the transition from the waveguide to the flange unless you look
              very carefully. These people worked hard to assure the best match
              throughout the system.

              Greg
            • dsss_communications <dsss_communications
              ... and - ... doubt ... higher ... at ... gradually ... the ... Thanks, Terry! I now understand the reason for the careful straight runs. Another interesting
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 2, 2003
                --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "s92187 <tmichaels@t...>"
                <tmichaels@t...> wrote:
                > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsss_communications
                > <dsss_communications@y...>" <dsss_communications@y...> wrote:
                > > I spent New Years day traveling around the Montana countryside
                and -
                >
                > >
                > > Now, I realize that one must stay away from the lower cutoff mode
                > in
                > > a waveguide but I never thought that you could get acceptable
                > > performance from a low-frequency waveguide at appreciably higher
                > > frequencies. AT&T engineers managed to do this. I seriously
                doubt
                > > if any of the younger microwave engineers coming out of school
                > > nowadays would even think of tackling a project like this.
                > >
                > >
                > > Greg
                > >
                >
                > Hi Greg:
                >
                > You can certainly run higher frequencies through a given run of
                > waveguide, in fact the loss due to adsorption/attenuation decreases
                > as you go higher from the lower cutoff frequency, which is an
                > advantage. Where you get into trouble is multimoding, which
                > unfortunately gets worse as you go higher in frequency. A bend in
                > the waveguide, or a discontinuity at a joint between waveguide
                > sections, can cause mode conversion from the dominant mode to
                higher
                > modes. To avoid this AT&T took great care to keep the vertical
                > waveguide runs on their towers as straight as possible, any bends
                at
                > all must be done as gradual, sweeping curves. If the rate of
                > curvature in a given length of waveguide is gentle enough, mode
                > conversion is avoided, even up to 11 GHz. If you look up from the
                > base of one of their towers, that is exactly what you see: the
                > waveguide from the bottom of the horn antenna runs straight down
                > until it meets the side of the tower, at that point it then
                gradually
                > bends outward to match the slope of the tower face, and then runs
                > parallel to the tower down to the bottom. Any residual mode
                > conversion was usually cleaned up by inserting a mode filter into
                the
                > waveguide run at one end.
                >
                > Terry Michaels

                Thanks, Terry!

                I now understand the reason for the careful straight runs.

                Another interesting observation is that they never brazed any of
                their circular waveguide to the flanges. Each end was threaded and
                screwed on to each flange using a reasonably fine thread. You cannot
                see the transition from the waveguide to the flange unless you look
                very carefully. These people worked hard to assure the best match
                throughout the system.

                Greg
              • dsss_communications <dsss_communications
                Paul: I did, as a matter of fact but trying to shoot through the ice shield left me with nothing but a ghostly outline of the plumbing. I am going to return
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 2, 2003
                  Paul:

                  I did, as a matter of fact but trying to shoot through the ice shield
                  left me with nothing but a ghostly outline of the plumbing. I am
                  going to return to the site soon hopefully with AT&T staff and try to
                  get a few more detailed shots. I would like to swing open one of the
                  shields to expose one of the triplexers. I estimate each unit to be
                  approximately 25 to 30 feet long although it is tough to tell with
                  the jumble of waveguide plumbing up inside the shield.

                  I found out today that AT&T still owns the site and apparently has
                  intentions of keeping it for some reason although it appears to have
                  been entirely shut down. Although American Tower has it on their
                  books, they cannot sell it. There are possibly active cables
                  traversing under the site because I see numerous manholes out in the
                  weeds.

                  I am awaiting a call back to see if I can gain access to the inside
                  of the building for more photos. It is 16,000 square feet and, from
                  what I am gathering, was abandoned in place. There's a rumor that
                  this building housed a large switch, possibly for the old AUTOVON
                  network (we currently have 200 active nuclear missles in their holes
                  up here so the military has a large presence) and was also the
                  central switching point for all of the routes to other parts of the
                  state. That would explain its sheer size. This would be a
                  tremendous visit if everything were there but not operating.

                  AT&T currently uses the parking lot and outbuildings for storage
                  purposes for their fiber operations. I could find no signs of
                  traffic into or out of the main building (i.e., dried and rotting
                  door sweeps that haven't been moved, small gravel jammed under the
                  doors, old decomposing cow pies in front of doors that swing out,
                  etc.).

                  Stay tuned!

                  Greg



                  --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Paul J Zawada
                  <paul_zawada@y...>" <paul_zawada@y...> wrote:
                  > Hi Greg...
                  >
                  > Did you happen to take any photos of that 3-band triplexer? A
                  while
                  > back I put a couple of photos of a dual-polarization, dual-band (4-
                  > GHz and 6-GHz) circular-to-rectangular transition (diplexer) in the
                  > files area of the Yahoo Groups coldwarcomms page. (It's in the
                  Files
                  > > Equipment directory) Unfortunately, I've never taken photos of
                  the
                  > 3-band unit... It would be interesting to compare the two. That
                  > triplexer must be one long piece of hardware!
                  >
                  > I have to agree, the passive microwave networks are arguably the
                  > neatest pieces of hardware that Bell Labs/WECo developed for the
                  Long
                  > Lines microwave network. They certainly don't build them like that
                  > anymore!
                  >
                  > --zawada
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "dsss_communications
                  > <dsss_communications@y...>" <dsss_communications@y...> wrote:
                  > > I spent New Years day traveling around the Montana countryside
                  and -
                  >
                  > > what else - blew the whole day visiting old AT&T microwave
                  sites.
                  > > Far better than waking up with a hangover!
                  > >
                  > > While at one site, I took some time to study the ubiquitous
                  > diplexer
                  > > that is housed under the mesh ice shield at the bottom of the
                  > tower.
                  > > As I examined it I noticed three sizes of waveguide running up to
                  > the
                  > > diplexer. Further inspection revealed that the single, circular
                  > > waveguide running up to the KS-15676 horn was carrying 4, 6 AND
                  11
                  > > GHz signals! On top of that, they were using both polarization
                  > modes
                  > > for all three frequencies which resulted in 6 waveguides feeding
                  > into
                  > > a single diplexer..., er triplexer, in this case.
                  > >
                  > > Now, I realize that one must stay away from the lower cutoff mode
                  > in
                  > > a waveguide but I never thought that you could get acceptable
                  > > performance from a low-frequency waveguide at appreciably higher
                  > > frequencies. AT&T engineers managed to do this. I seriously
                  doubt
                  > > if any of the younger microwave engineers coming out of school
                  > > nowadays would even think of tackling a project like this.
                  > >
                  > > Of course, they did dedicate each horn for either transmitting or
                  > > receiving (which is the reason for two horns pointing in one
                  > > direction for each route) so I guess things must have been
                  behaving
                  > > well enough to allow such a wide frequency spread. This must
                  also
                  > > have been made possible when AT&T was allowed to increase their
                  > > transmit power from 0.5 watts to 5.0 watts in 1973 which would
                  have
                  > > overcome any system losses incurred from such a feat.
                  > >
                  > > Greg
                  > >
                • Albert LaFrance
                  Yet another neat feature of the waveguide system was the axial ratio compensator , a manually-adjusted mechanical component used to improve cross-polarization
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 7, 2003
                    Yet another neat feature of the waveguide system was the "axial ratio
                    compensator", a manually-adjusted mechanical component used to improve
                    cross-polarization discrimination (interference between horizontally and
                    vertically polarized signals at the same frequency) by controlled squeezing
                    of the circular waveguide.

                    It's also interesting to note that, in addition to rectangular and circular
                    waveguide, the RF system included a short section of square waveguide
                    (actually a square-to-circular transition) at the top of the system
                    combining network.

                    And as if that weren't enough complexity, keep in mind that each of the 4
                    and 6 GHz rectangular waveguides feeding those combining networks usually
                    was connected to multiple radios inside the building (up to 12 radios for a
                    4 GHz system), each radio being coupled to the waveguide by a complex
                    four-armed network called a "channel separation filter".

                    Albert

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <dsss_communications@...>
                    To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 11:36 PM
                    Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Horns


                    > Thanks, Terry!
                    >
                    > I now understand the reason for the careful straight runs.
                    >
                    > Another interesting observation is that they never brazed any of
                    > their circular waveguide to the flanges. Each end was threaded and
                    > screwed on to each flange using a reasonably fine thread. You cannot
                    > see the transition from the waveguide to the flange unless you look
                    > very carefully. These people worked hard to assure the best match
                    > throughout the system.
                    >
                    > Greg
                  • dsss_communications <dsss_communications
                    Thank you for your expansion on the waveguide issue! I am still learning about more of the fine tuning of the system. The horn reflector antenna and
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 7, 2003
                      Thank you for your expansion on the waveguide issue! I am still
                      learning about more of the "fine tuning" of the system.

                      The horn reflector antenna and associated circular waveguide came
                      into being around 1955 when AT&T engineers were working on
                      overbuilding the 6 GHz TH-1 system on the 4 GHz TD-2 system that was
                      already in place. That increased the system capacity from 6000 VF
                      channels to 16,800 VF channels using both systems.

                      There is a good, but simple, schematic layout of the equipment
                      required in a typical microwave hop in the book "Engineering and
                      Operations in the Bell System", 2/E. I have what I believe is the
                      last version of this book which was printed in 1984. It seems that
                      Bell Labs wanted to keep a considerable amount of System history in
                      the book but did talk about divestiture. In the book, the writers
                      referred to the channel separation filters as "channel combining
                      networks" on the TX end and "channel separation networks" on the RX
                      end.

                      Greg



                      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "Albert LaFrance"
                      <albertjlafrance@c...> wrote:
                      > Yet another neat feature of the waveguide system was the "axial
                      ratio
                      > compensator", a manually-adjusted mechanical component used to
                      improve
                      > cross-polarization discrimination (interference between
                      horizontally and
                      > vertically polarized signals at the same frequency) by controlled
                      squeezing
                      > of the circular waveguide.
                      >
                      > It's also interesting to note that, in addition to rectangular and
                      circular
                      > waveguide, the RF system included a short section of square
                      waveguide
                      > (actually a square-to-circular transition) at the top of the system
                      > combining network.
                      >
                      > And as if that weren't enough complexity, keep in mind that each of
                      the 4
                      > and 6 GHz rectangular waveguides feeding those combining networks
                      usually
                      > was connected to multiple radios inside the building (up to 12
                      radios for a
                      > 4 GHz system), each radio being coupled to the waveguide by a
                      complex
                      > four-armed network called a "channel separation filter".
                      >
                      > Albert
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: <dsss_communications@y...>
                      > To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, January 02, 2003 11:36 PM
                      > Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Horns
                      >
                      >
                      > > Thanks, Terry!
                      > >
                      > > I now understand the reason for the careful straight runs.
                      > >
                      > > Another interesting observation is that they never brazed any of
                      > > their circular waveguide to the flanges. Each end was threaded
                      and
                      > > screwed on to each flange using a reasonably fine thread. You
                      cannot
                      > > see the transition from the waveguide to the flange unless you
                      look
                      > > very carefully. These people worked hard to assure the best match
                      > > throughout the system.
                      > >
                      > > Greg
                    • Jeremy
                      Is that a publication that could be scanned and emailed or put up on a website? At least the microwave info? Thanks Jeremy There is a good, but simple,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 7, 2003
                        Is that a publication that could be scanned and emailed or put up on a website? At least the microwave info?
                        Thanks
                        Jeremy
                        There is a good, but simple, schematic layout of the equipment
                        required in a typical microwave hop in the book "Engineering and
                        Operations in the Bell System", 2/E. I have what I believe is the
                        last version of this book which was printed in 1984.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • blitz
                        Yes, that would be a treasure..
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 8, 2003
                          Yes, that would be a treasure..


                          At 22:20 1/7/03 -0800, you wrote:
                          >Is that a publication that could be scanned and emailed or put up on a
                          >website? At least the microwave info?
                          >Thanks
                          >Jeremy
                          > There is a good, but simple, schematic layout of the equipment
                          > required in a typical microwave hop in the book "Engineering and
                          > Operations in the Bell System", 2/E. I have what I believe is the
                          > last version of this book which was printed in 1984.
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Paul J Zawada <paul_zawada@yahoo.com>
                          An electronic copy of Engineering and Operations in the Bell System would be great. Unfortunately the book is something like 700+ pages. Even if someone were
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 8, 2003
                            An electronic copy of Engineering and Operations in the Bell System
                            would be great. Unfortunately the book is something like 700+ pages.
                            Even if someone were willing to sacrifice a copy to be cut out of the
                            binding to feed through a sheet-fed scanner, it would take a while to
                            to scan and organize into a multi-CD document... (That's assuming
                            you could AT&T and/or Lucent's permission to take on a project like
                            that in the first place...)

                            Fortunately the book pops up on eBay somewhat often. I've seen them
                            go for anywhere between $20 and $100+. The final price depends what
                            kind of mood people are in I guess. If you're not patient enough to
                            wait for it to come around on eBay, I found a bunch of hits on
                            http://www.abebooks.com ... Some of the prices are even reasonable!
                            ( http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookSearchPL?
                            an=&tn=engineering+operations+bell+system&ph=2 )

                            Finally if you're really serious about Bell System era technology,
                            you really should own _both_ editions of the book. The second
                            edition was significantly rewritten- so while there is some
                            overlapping information, there is a lot of unique stuff in each
                            individual edition. The first edition (white jacket) was orignally
                            published in 1977 (IIRC) and the second edition (orange jacket) was
                            originally published in 1982. Each was printed many times.

                            --zawada



                            --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, blitz <blitz@m...> wrote:
                            > Yes, that would be a treasure..
                            >
                            >
                            > At 22:20 1/7/03 -0800, you wrote:
                            > >Is that a publication that could be scanned and emailed or put
                            > >up on a website? At least the microwave info?
                            > >Thanks
                            > >Jeremy
                            > > There is a good, but simple, schematic layout of the equipment
                            > > required in a typical microwave hop in the book "Engineering and
                            > > Operations in the Bell System", 2/E. I have what I believe is
                            the
                            > > last version of this book which was printed in 1984.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          • Jeremy
                            Paul Thanks for the info, didnt t realize it was so big. I checked out the link, quite a few hits. Some copies were selling for $350(Yow) Have to save my
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 8, 2003
                              Paul
                              Thanks for the info, didnt't realize it was so big. I checked out the link, quite a few hits. Some copies were selling for $350(Yow) Have to save my pennies and order one of the less expensive ones.
                              Jeremy
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Paul J Zawada <paul_zawada@...>
                              To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 6:53 AM
                              Subject: [coldwarcomms] Engineering and Operations in the Bell System ( was Re: Horns)


                              An electronic copy of Engineering and Operations in the Bell System
                              would be great. Unfortunately the book is something like 700+ pages.
                              Even if someone were willing to sacrifice a copy to be cut out of the
                              binding to feed through a sheet-fed scanner, it would take a while to
                              to scan and organize into a multi-CD document... (That's assuming
                              you could AT&T and/or Lucent's permission to take on a project like
                              that in the first place...)

                              Fortunately the book pops up on eBay somewhat often. I've seen them
                              go for anywhere between $20 and $100+. The final price depends what
                              kind of mood people are in I guess. If you're not patient enough to
                              wait for it to come around on eBay, I found a bunch of hits on
                              http://www.abebooks.com ... Some of the prices are even reasonable!
                              ( http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookSearchPL?
                              an=&tn=engineering+operations+bell+system&ph=2 )

                              Finally if you're really serious about Bell System era technology,
                              you really should own _both_ editions of the book. The second
                              edition was significantly rewritten- so while there is some
                              overlapping information, there is a lot of unique stuff in each
                              individual edition. The first edition (white jacket) was orignally
                              published in 1977 (IIRC) and the second edition (orange jacket) was
                              originally published in 1982. Each was printed many times.

                              --zawada



                              --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, blitz <blitz@m...> wrote:
                              > Yes, that would be a treasure..
                              >
                              >
                              > At 22:20 1/7/03 -0800, you wrote:
                              > >Is that a publication that could be scanned and emailed or put
                              > >up on a website? At least the microwave info?
                              > >Thanks
                              > >Jeremy
                              > > There is a good, but simple, schematic layout of the equipment
                              > > required in a typical microwave hop in the book "Engineering and
                              > > Operations in the Bell System", 2/E. I have what I believe is
                              the
                              > > last version of this book which was printed in 1984.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • s92187 <tmichaels@tower-sites.com>
                              I ve just uploaded a photo labelled Waveguide_run to the Equipment folder in the Files section, this photo shows the gentle curves incorporated into the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 9, 2003
                                I've just uploaded a photo labelled "Waveguide_run" to the Equipment
                                folder in the Files section, this photo shows the gentle curves
                                incorporated into the vertical runs of circular waveguide on an AT&T
                                tower, a subject that was discussed here recently. The photo was
                                taken at a 250 foot type H tower at Mendota, IL.

                                Terry Michaels
                              • bd6xray <bd6xray@lycos.com>
                                ... Equipment ... AT&T ... Interesting how one of the horns is painted and the other, at the same height, is not. Al Hajny
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 9, 2003
                                  --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "s92187 <tmichaels@t...>"
                                  <tmichaels@t...> wrote:
                                  > I've just uploaded a photo labelled "Waveguide_run" to the
                                  Equipment
                                  > folder in the Files section, this photo shows the gentle curves
                                  > incorporated into the vertical runs of circular waveguide on an
                                  AT&T
                                  > tower, a subject that was discussed here recently. The photo was
                                  > taken at a 250 foot type H tower at Mendota, IL.
                                  >
                                  > Terry Michaels

                                  Interesting how one of the horns is painted and the other, at the
                                  same height, is not.

                                  Al Hajny
                                • s92187 <tmichaels@tower-sites.com>
                                  ... Hi Al: I m not sure why one horn antenna is not painted. One possibility is, a horn became damaged, and AT&T replaced it with a new, unpainted one, at
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 9, 2003
                                    --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "bd6xray <bd6xray@l...>"
                                    <bd6xray@l...> wrote:
                                    > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "s92187 <tmichaels@t...>"
                                    > <tmichaels@t...> wrote:
                                    > > I've just uploaded a photo labelled "Waveguide_run" to the
                                    > Equipment
                                    > > folder in the Files section, this photo shows the gentle curves
                                    > > incorporated into the vertical runs of circular waveguide on an
                                    > AT&T
                                    > > tower, a subject that was discussed here recently. The photo was
                                    > > taken at a 250 foot type H tower at Mendota, IL.
                                    > >
                                    > > Terry Michaels
                                    >
                                    > Interesting how one of the horns is painted and the other, at the
                                    > same height, is not.
                                    >
                                    > Al Hajny

                                    Hi Al:

                                    I'm not sure why one horn antenna is not painted. One possibility
                                    is, a horn became damaged, and AT&T replaced it with a new, unpainted
                                    one, at some point in time after the tower was strobed and painting
                                    the horn to match was no longer necessary.

                                    I've seen a few other examples of unpainted horns on painted towers,
                                    or painted horns on unpainted towers. Kewanee IL is an example of
                                    the latter, I'll post a photo of that one tomorrow.

                                    Terry Michaels
                                  • s92187 <tmichaels@tower-sites.com>
                                    ... towers, ... As promised, I ve uploaded a photo of the AT&T tower at Kewanee, it can be found in the Photos section, in a folder labeled Kewanee. Terry
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 10, 2003
                                      --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, "s92187 <tmichaels@t...>"
                                      <tmichaels@t...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I've seen a few other examples of unpainted horns on painted
                                      towers,
                                      > or painted horns on unpainted towers. Kewanee IL is an example of
                                      > the latter, I'll post a photo of that one tomorrow.
                                      >
                                      > Terry Michaels

                                      As promised, I've uploaded a photo of the AT&T tower at Kewanee, it
                                      can be found in the Photos section, in a folder labeled Kewanee.

                                      Terry Michaels
                                    • Tom <wr7agt@earthlink.net>
                                      ... = Well here you go. The antenna by itself, no clamps, no brackets or other external items weighs in at the local Salvage scales aqt 1750 pounds, plus or
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 24, 2003
                                        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, David Lesher <wb8foz@n...> wrote:
                                        > Err..
                                        > <http://longlines.addr.com/tech-equip/radio/BSP402421100/p01.html>
                                        > is for 4Ghz/6/11 horns.
                                        >
                                        > I suspect most out there are 2Ghz.
                                        >
                                        > Plus, I was disappointed not to find what I really wanted --
                                        > size and weight of one!
                                        =

                                        Well here you go. The antenna by itself, no clamps, no brackets or
                                        other external items weighs in at the local Salvage scales aqt 1750
                                        pounds, plus or minus a few between antennas.

                                        Tom
                                      • Radioman390@cs.com
                                        Maybe the horns were raised to get them away from the building. As far as I can tell, the aim across the Hudson River, but there s nothing between them except
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 18, 2009
                                          Maybe the horns were raised to get them away from the building. As far as I can tell, the aim across the Hudson River, but there's nothing between them except a park, so if they were built to overcome an obstruction, that blockage must have been on the Jersey side.

                                          If the horns were recently raised, where were they before? In the open "windows" below the lattice?

                                          Could it have been a response to the cancer suit brought by an NYT engineer who worked with Microwaves at the Empire State Building? He won his case for monetary damages, but died soon therafter (I remember the article).
                                        • John Young
                                          The three photos we published show the south side of the building. The horns on the lattice tower face just north of east, aiming for east side of Manhattan,
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                            The three photos we published show the south side of the building.

                                            The horns on the lattice tower face just north of east, aiming for
                                            east side of Manhattan, Queens, Long Island, or a more distant
                                            point.

                                            Other horns in the cavity below the roof face southwest toward
                                            New Jersey and beyond. (Odd note, the building can be seen
                                            in the background of the Coast Guard video of Flight 1549
                                            ditching, shot from the New Jersey shore.)

                                            Quite a few buildings as tall or taller have been built in recent
                                            decades, with a number going up in the past few years as high-rise
                                            construction came to the formerly low-rise neighborhood.

                                            Windowless high-rise buildings are unusual and there are only a
                                            few in NYC -- I know of three in Manhattan. Older telco buildings
                                            have windows, such as 140 West, 60 Hudson, 32 6th Avenue,
                                            811 8th Avenue, the latter now a server farm). There has been a
                                            fire or two in the windowless versions, and the Fire Department
                                            complains about the difficulty of fire fighting and ventilation. There
                                            has been discussion of requiring additional fire protecion and
                                            ventilation systems. Not sure where those requirements stand.

                                            These windowless structures have always been mysterious, even
                                            forbidding, to architects not privy to their rich and humming
                                            mechanical interiors.

                                            That 811 10th once had more personnel in offices than now may
                                            have been the result of this safety issue. The code requirements for
                                            a strictly mechanical facility are less demanding than those which
                                            houses people. The number of people allowed is quite small
                                            due to lack of sufficient fire protection and ventilation systems
                                            in a windowless structure.

                                            NYC Building Dept records show construction of the building was
                                            started in 1961 and it was occupied in 1965. There is nothing listed for
                                            construction of the lattice tower.

                                            Records show the building has 21 floors, and a height of almost
                                            370 feet, a floor to floor height over 17-feet, well above the average
                                            of 10-feet.

                                            The NYC Certificate of Occupancy states that all floors above
                                            the street are to be used for "telephone exchange and mechanical
                                            equipment, " and a total occupancy capacity of 3,650 persons, which
                                            seems quite high for a mechanical facility.

                                            Building records show that the building initially had 14 elevators,
                                            now reduced to 9, the change probably due to the reduction in
                                            number of occupants, or to hold down maintenance cost. A good
                                            number of them are probably for freight not passengers.

                                            All NYC stairs are required to have louvers or windows at the very top
                                            for smoke ventilation, which is supported by the comment made here.

                                            So saith a NYC architect eager to visit one of the hulks. Security
                                            so tight now the likelihood is slim.

                                            BTW what was the purpose of the 18-inch thick walls, blast protection,
                                            security, TEMPEST or what? Concrete without metal plate or mesh
                                            is useless for TEMPEST, no?
                                          • Radioman390@cs.com
                                            ... ================================= I have been in the building a number of times maintaining a VHF radio facility. I was told that the thickness of the
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                              John Young <jya@...> wrote:

                                              >The three photos we published show the south side of the building.
                                              >
                                              >The horns on the lattice tower face just north of east, aiming for
                                              >east side of Manhattan, Queens, Long Island, or a more distant
                                              >point.
                                              >
                                              >Other horns in the cavity below the roof face southwest toward
                                              >New Jersey and beyond. (Odd note, the building can be seen
                                              >in the background of the Coast Guard video of Flight 1549
                                              >ditching, shot from the New Jersey shore.)
                                              >
                                              >Quite a few buildings as tall or taller have been built in recent
                                              >decades, with a number going up in the past few years as high-rise
                                              >construction came to the formerly low-rise neighborhood.
                                              >
                                              >Windowless high-rise buildings are unusual and there are only a
                                              >few in NYC -- I know of three in Manhattan. Older telco buildings
                                              >have windows, such as 140 West, 60 Hudson, 32 6th Avenue,
                                              >811 8th Avenue, the latter now a server farm). There has been a
                                              >fire or two in the windowless versions, and the Fire Department
                                              >complains about the difficulty of fire fighting and ventilation. There
                                              >has been discussion of requiring additional fire protecion and
                                              >ventilation systems. Not sure where those requirements stand.
                                              >
                                              >These windowless structures have always been mysterious, even
                                              >forbidding, to architects not privy to their rich and humming
                                              >mechanical interiors.
                                              >
                                              >That 811 10th once had more personnel in offices than now may
                                              >have been the result of this safety issue. The code requirements for
                                              >a strictly mechanical facility are less demanding than those which
                                              >houses people. The number of people allowed is quite small
                                              >due to lack of sufficient fire protection and ventilation systems
                                              >in a windowless structure.
                                              >
                                              >NYC Building Dept records show construction of the building was
                                              >started in 1961 and it was occupied in 1965. There is nothing listed for
                                              >construction of the lattice tower.
                                              >
                                              >Records show the building has 21 floors, and a height of almost
                                              >370 feet, a floor to floor height over 17-feet, well above the average
                                              >of 10-feet.
                                              >
                                              >The NYC Certificate of Occupancy states that all floors above
                                              >the street are to be used for "telephone exchange and mechanical
                                              >equipment, " and a total occupancy capacity of 3,650 persons, which
                                              >seems quite high for a mechanical facility.
                                              >
                                              >Building records show that the building initially had 14 elevators,
                                              >now reduced to 9, the change probably due to the reduction in
                                              >number of occupants, or to hold down maintenance cost. A good
                                              >number of them are probably for freight not passengers.
                                              >
                                              >All NYC stairs are required to have louvers or windows at the very top
                                              >for smoke ventilation, which is supported by the comment made here.
                                              >
                                              >So saith a NYC architect eager to visit one of the hulks. Security
                                              >so tight now the likelihood is slim.
                                              >
                                              >BTW what was the purpose of the 18-inch thick walls, blast protection,
                                              >security, TEMPEST or what? Concrete without metal plate or mesh
                                              >is useless for TEMPEST, no?
                                              >
                                              =================================>
                                              I have been in the building a number of times maintaining a VHF radio facility.
                                              I was told that the thickness of the walls at the base is much greater that 18 inches; it was in the range of several feet, supposedly to withstand an attempt by a military tank to break through. Of course I can think of no scenario that would call for such capability.

                                              The 17 foot ceiling height seems right, but that was because there was a massive set of overhead cable trays running every which way. The floor I worked on was 85% vacant in terms of equipment floor space. It was actually cold in the room which was easily 75 x 75 feet; poorly lit too.

                                              I don't know how many sq. ft there are in the building, but current day  technology is small.

                                              It reminds me of my first trip to Siberia, to Ulan Ude which is near the Mongolia border. We went in (in 1988) to discuss the need for an additional capacity for telephone lines, basic POTS, in the city. We met at the Parliament Building and the minister of communications pointed across the plaza to a new five story building which would be donated to the joint venture partnership. As I recall the whole city of 350,000 to 400,000 had only about 25,000 existing lines, and were asked to increase it by 20 to 25%.

                                              The building was maybe 20,000 sq ft; the specs I responded to only necessitated a Harris switch about 64 cu ft in size. They were quite behind in technology. They were also quite inefficient: the staffing for the phone company was one employee for ever 4 or 5 lines. This overstaffing was widespread; we worked in Konokova at town of 100,000 (probably less) about a hundred miles from Moscow, where the local telephone company had 6,000 employees. It was there that I saw some old technology from the thirties still working, pre cross-bar (sort of the Christmas tree design where a rotor went up or down).

                                              The "owner" of the Konokova phone company who had literally stolen it from the Russian government, took me into a room, which was devastatingly loud, like the generator room at Hoover Dam. We came in from above and I'd guess the room was 100' long, and maybe 50' wide. And it was hot too. It supported 2,500 lines and had for 60+ years. The owner had previously been a Minister of Rural Communications for the whole country, and when payroll had been missed several times, he put up the money, and declared himself the owner. He had a vacation Dacha a few miles out town, and ran it from there. I stayed there several times. drinking Vodka like a sailor, and more than once his home was strafed by machine gun fire. The perimeter fence was corrugated steel, and he had a 10-car garage, plus dogs of the junkyard variety.

                                              On one occasion I was at his home three days running waiting for a ride to Moscow for flight back to the US. (Our Russian staff rebelled because I didn't want to stay with them at a resort near the President's dacha, so as punishment they dumped me there, and they went back to vacationing)  I didn't speak Russian, and nobody spoke English.

                                              But one night I wandered into the living room, where on a snowy B&W TV we had a signal from Finland. We laughed ourselves silly watching Benny Hill, despite a further language barrier in that it was tracked in Finnish. I guess slapstick comedy crosses all boundaries.

                                              Later, he and his family stayed with us at my home in Long Island.
                                            • Dennis Sandow
                                              ... I was on the open-steel of the microwave window cutouts in January, 1963 with a transit, sighting a 40 mile path NNW (Monroe) to be sure that there were no
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                                --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, John Young <jya@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > The three photos we published show the south side of the building.
                                                >
                                                > The horns on the lattice tower face just north of east, aiming for
                                                > east side of Manhattan, Queens, Long Island, or a more distant
                                                > point.
                                                >
                                                > Other horns in the cavity below the roof face southwest toward
                                                > New Jersey and beyond.


                                                I was on the open-steel of the microwave window cutouts in January,
                                                1963 with a transit, sighting a 40 mile path NNW (Monroe) to be sure
                                                that there were no unexpected obstructions. There were not. There
                                                are 2 decks of cavities on all 4 faces of the tower (i.e. 8 pair of
                                                horn reflectors), but I do not think they were all in use when the
                                                building opened. The lattice tower was a later add-on.

                                                > NYC Building Dept records show construction of the building was
                                                > started in 1961 and it was occupied in 1965. There is nothing listed for
                                                > construction of the lattice tower.

                                                No surprises there.

                                                > The NYC Certificate of Occupancy states that all floors above
                                                > the street are to be used for "telephone exchange and mechanical
                                                > equipment, " and a total occupancy capacity of 3,650 persons, which
                                                > seems quite high for a mechanical facility.

                                                Long Lines had about 500 people in the building in the 60's/70's -
                                                spread over 24x7. Possibly 250-300 on the day shift.

                                                NYTel may have had almost as many for their equipment in the building.

                                                "Occupancy capacity" on a Certificate of Occupancy is often the
                                                maximum allowable, calculated based on floor areas, width and number
                                                of stairwells and exit doors (i.e. limits for fire evacuation.) It
                                                may have nothing to do with the owner's intentions for staffing the
                                                building.
                                              • widebandit
                                                AT&T map 6, published January 1970, shows 811-10th as NY7 with four microwave hops: ENE to Roslyn Harbor NY, WSW to Iselin NJ, NW to Green Pond 1 NJ, and NNW
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 19, 2009
                                                  AT&T map 6, published January 1970, shows 811-10th as NY7 with four
                                                  microwave hops: ENE to Roslyn Harbor NY, WSW to Iselin NJ, NW to
                                                  Green Pond 1 NJ, and NNW to Monroe NY.
                                                  BTW 32-6th is shown as NY1,2,4.
                                                  The map also shows coaxial links from NY7 to: Newark 1, Newark 2,
                                                  White Plains via Ny Bx, and Hempstead via NY FM.
                                                  AT&T Map 6 was available on MFoster's LCXR website, which is
                                                  currently down for modifications.
                                                  In early photos of the bldg, the lattice superstructure is absent.
                                                  The horn antenna portals of the original design were most likely
                                                  dictated by exterior appearance requirements of upper West Side
                                                  zoning and probably had a substantial effect on near-field antenna
                                                  performance....WaW...
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, John Young <jya@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The three photos we published show the south side of the building.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The horns on the lattice tower face just north of east, aiming for
                                                  > > east side of Manhattan, Queens, Long Island, or a more distant
                                                  > > point.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Other horns in the cavity below the roof face southwest toward
                                                  > > New Jersey and beyond.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I was on the open-steel of the microwave window cutouts in January,
                                                  > 1963 with a transit, sighting a 40 mile path NNW (Monroe) to be sure
                                                  > that there were no unexpected obstructions. There were not. There
                                                  > are 2 decks of cavities on all 4 faces of the tower (i.e. 8 pair of
                                                  > horn reflectors), but I do not think they were all in use when the
                                                  > building opened. The lattice tower was a later add-on.
                                                  >
                                                  > > NYC Building Dept records show construction of the building was
                                                  > > started in 1961 and it was occupied in 1965. There is nothing
                                                  listed for
                                                  > > construction of the lattice tower.
                                                  >
                                                  > No surprises there.
                                                  >
                                                  > > The NYC Certificate of Occupancy states that all floors above
                                                  > > the street are to be used for "telephone exchange and mechanical
                                                  > > equipment, " and a total occupancy capacity of 3,650 persons,
                                                  which
                                                  > > seems quite high for a mechanical facility.
                                                  >
                                                  > Long Lines had about 500 people in the building in the 60's/70's -
                                                  > spread over 24x7. Possibly 250-300 on the day shift.
                                                  >
                                                  > NYTel may have had almost as many for their equipment in the
                                                  building.
                                                  >
                                                  > "Occupancy capacity" on a Certificate of Occupancy is often the
                                                  > maximum allowable, calculated based on floor areas, width and number
                                                  > of stairwells and exit doors (i.e. limits for fire evacuation.) It
                                                  > may have nothing to do with the owner's intentions for staffing the
                                                  > building.
                                                  >
                                                • packy41@yahoo.com
                                                  Pretty sure that someone here posted a link of a massive Russian tower that had both styles of ks horns along with other copies of us designed antennas on it.
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 7, 2010
                                                    Pretty sure that someone here posted a link of a massive Russian tower that had both styles of ks horns along with other copies of us designed antennas on it.
                                                    Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                                  • Blake Bowers
                                                    I own two MCI towers that had KS style horns, one they were there after MCI got the towers after 1984 as part of the settlement, the other is in a metro area
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 7, 2010
                                                      I own two MCI towers that had KS style horns,
                                                      one they were there after MCI got the towers after 1984
                                                      as part of the settlement, the other is in a metro area and
                                                      was getting too much fade on the regular dishes, so they
                                                      tried those.


                                                      Don't take your organs to heaven,
                                                      heaven knows we need them down here!
                                                      Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "David" <wb8foz@...>
                                                      To: <coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:48 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [coldwarcomms] Horns


                                                      > On 11/6/10 4:08 PM, OZOB99 wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >>>> How would MCI buy them from WECO??
                                                      >
                                                      >> If not direct, perhaps through Graybar,Kellogg,et al; if I remember
                                                      >> right Carolina Tel&Tel had KS horns at Rocky Mount, Margeretsville(sic)
                                                      >> & others; along with their WeCo 4A switch, TD-2& 100A switching.
                                                      >
                                                      > I have to ask my comm lawyer friends, but weren't there restrictions
                                                      > against WECO selling to anyone but Operating Companies and USG?
                                                      >
                                                      > I don't recall anyone mentioning knockoffs of the horns; I have no doubt
                                                      > the USSR could have made same, but if a domestic company did, I'd expect
                                                      > lawsuits.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
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                                                    • lasertower
                                                      ... Be me that would... Reprise: http://www.tvtower.ru/56_HistoryMRC/eng/
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Nov 8, 2010
                                                        --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, packy41@... wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Pretty sure that someone here posted a link of a massive Russian tower that had both styles of ks horns along with other copies of us designed antennas on it.
                                                        > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                                        >

                                                        Be me that would...

                                                        Reprise:

                                                        http://www.tvtower.ru/56_HistoryMRC/eng/

                                                        http://www2.rfsworld.com/StayConnected/index_ie2.html?ns_head.html&http://www2.rfsworld.com/StayConnected/broadcast/broadcast_0201_1.html

                                                        Steve
                                                      • mstangelo@comcast.net
                                                        The Russian N1 moon rocket has a shape similar to the Shuhovskaya tower: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N1_(rocket) I guess Russian designers have a fondness for
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Nov 9, 2010
                                                          The Russian N1 moon rocket has a shape similar to the Shuhovskaya tower:

                                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N1_(rocket)

                                                          I guess Russian designers have a fondness for conical designs :-)

                                                          Mike N2MS

                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: lasertower <osr@...>
                                                          To: coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 01:27:49 -0000 (UTC)
                                                          Subject: [coldwarcomms] Re: Horns



                                                          --- In coldwarcomms@yahoogroups.com, packy41@... wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > Pretty sure that someone here posted a link of a massive Russian tower that had both styles of ks horns along with other copies of us designed antennas on it.
                                                          > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
                                                          >

                                                          Be me that would...

                                                          Reprise:

                                                          http://www.tvtower.ru/56_HistoryMRC/eng/

                                                          http://www2.rfsworld.com/StayConnected/index_ie2.html?ns_head.html&http://www2.rfsworld.com/StayConnected/broadcast/broadcast_0201_1.html

                                                          Steve

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