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Re: Another AT&T tariff

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  • ozob99
    ... Waldorf) ... Even more enigmatic is Camp Lejune-Cherokee,NC!!..i m guessing GATR type site;Cherokee is a remote,tiny tourist town & casino ;altho it s next
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 6, 2002
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      --- In coldwarcomms@y..., "somdchem" <rickchem@h...> wrote:
      > Interesting stuff in there . . . check
      > http://serviceguide.att.com/ABS/ext/tariffs/general/t16/1690a.doc
      >
      > Shows GEP sites (based on known sites and lines connected to
      Waldorf)
      > and also. . . a number of links to Site R - how about a dedicated
      > line from New Castle County DE to Site R!?!!? Any speculation on
      > that one??



      Even more enigmatic is Camp Lejune-Cherokee,NC!!..i'm guessing GATR
      type site;Cherokee is a remote,tiny tourist town & casino ;altho it's
      next to Smokey Mt Park with lots of room for underground facilities.




      >
      > --- In coldwarcomms@y..., "Albert LaFrance" <albertjlafrance@c...>
      > wrote:
      > > Search for the text string "CSA" (whatever that is) to find the >
      > Albert
    • awowwed
      I have no idea what they do at Camp Lejune, but Cherokee is home to an indian reservation and borders the Smokey Mountain National Park. There is also a former
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 6, 2002
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        I have no idea what they do at Camp Lejune, but Cherokee is home to
        an indian reservation and borders the Smokey Mountain National Park.
        There is also a former (closed about 10 years ago) NSA satellite
        facility in the area that is now used by radio astronomers. Given
        earlier posts indicating some of the routes on these tariff lists
        hang around long after they are needed, it might also be worth
        considering.

        --- In coldwarcomms@y..., "ozob99" <ozob99@y...> wrote:
        > Even more enigmatic is Camp Lejune-Cherokee,NC!!..i'm guessing
        > GATR type site; Cherokee is a remote,tiny tourist town &
        > casino; altho it's next to Smokey Mt Park with lots of room for
        > underground facilities.
      • Rick C.
        ... So many places to examine! Ok, what does GATR stand for? Air traffic something? Also, anyone know what AFD/S stands for? I saw it mentioned w/ regard to
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 6, 2002
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          >
          >Even more enigmatic is Camp Lejune-Cherokee,NC!!..i'm guessing GATR
          >type site;Cherokee is a remote,tiny tourist town & casino ;altho it's
          >next to Smokey Mt Park with lots of room for underground facilities.
          >
          So many places to examine!

          Ok, what does GATR stand for? Air traffic something? Also, anyone know
          what AFD/S stands for? I saw it mentioned w/ regard to the Lambs Knoll, MD
          site in some FAA documents - indicating an FAA presence at the site.


          _________________________________________________________________
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        • ozob99
          ... it s ... facilities. ... ground circuit; started with SAGE sites i believe. Air traffic something? Also, anyone know ... Knoll, MD
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 6, 2002
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            --- In coldwarcomms@y..., "Rick C." <rickchem@h...> wrote:
            > >
            > >Even more enigmatic is Camp Lejune-Cherokee,NC!!..i'm guessing GATR
            > >type site;Cherokee is a remote,tiny tourist town & casino ;altho
            it's
            > >next to Smokey Mt Park with lots of room for underground
            facilities.
            > >
            > So many places to examine!


            >
            > Ok, what does GATR stand for?..Ground-Air Transmit/Receive..aka air-
            ground circuit; started with SAGE sites i believe.




            Air traffic something? Also, anyone know
            > what AFD/S stands for? I saw it mentioned w/ regard to the Lambs
            Knoll, MD
            > site in some FAA documents - indicating an FAA presence at the site.
            >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
            > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
          • Albert LaFrance
            Also, there are a few mentions of CP DAVID and THURMONT . Albert
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 6, 2002
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              Also, there are a few mentions of "CP DAVID" and "THURMONT".

              Albert
            • ozob99
              ... Park. ... OK you mean Roswell site...supposedly astronomy now..didnt know it was that close..Lejune is THE big Marine Base in east.
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 6, 2002
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                --- In coldwarcomms@y..., "awowwed" <awowwed@y...> wrote:
                > I have no idea what they do at Camp Lejune, but Cherokee is home to
                > an indian reservation and borders the Smokey Mountain National
                Park.
                > There is also a former (closed about 10 years ago) NSA satellite
                > facility in the area that is now used by radio astronomers. Given
                > earlier posts indicating some of the routes on these tariff lists
                > hang around long after they are needed, it might also be worth
                > considering.

                OK you mean Roswell site...supposedly astronomy now..didnt know it
                was that close..Lejune is THE big Marine Base in east.



                > --- In coldwarcomms@y..., "ozob99" <ozob99@y...> wrote:
                > > Even more enigmatic is Camp Lejune-Cherokee,NC!!..i'm guessing
                > > GATR type site; Cherokee is a remote,tiny tourist town &
                > > casino; altho it's next to Smokey Mt Park with lots of room for
                > > underground facilities.
              • awowwed
                The astronomy site is actually closer to Asheville than Cherokee. It is called the Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute (http://www.pari.edu/). The history
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 7, 2002
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                  The astronomy site is actually closer to Asheville than Cherokee. It
                  is called the Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute
                  (http://www.pari.edu/). The history of the site has been detailed in
                  several places over the years. One of them is at
                  http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-3/p26a.html.

                  --- In coldwarcomms@y..., "ozob99" <ozob99@y...> wrote:
                  > > ...
                  > > There is also a former (closed about 10 years ago) NSA satellite
                  > > facility in the area that is now used by radio astronomers.
                  > > ...
                  >
                  > OK you mean Roswell site...supposedly astronomy now..didnt know it
                  > was that close..Lejune is THE big Marine Base in east.
                • Chris Ness
                  ... Dover AFB. I am noticing a pattern. They are ending these lines nominally at a distance from the targets themselves. -- Chris Ness
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                    On February 6, 2002 06:27 pm, you wrote:
                    > Interesting stuff in there . . . check
                    > http://serviceguide.att.com/ABS/ext/tariffs/general/t16/1690a.doc
                    >
                    > Shows GEP sites (based on known sites and lines connected to Waldorf)
                    > and also. . . a number of links to Site R - how about a dedicated
                    > line from New Castle County DE to Site R!?!!? Any speculation on
                    > that one??
                    >
                    Dover AFB.

                    I am noticing a pattern. They are ending these lines nominally at a distance
                    from the targets themselves.
                    --
                    Chris Ness
                    mailto:mness215@... All jobs are equally easy to
                    http://vivid.nbank.net/~gloster the person not doing the work.
                    Holt's Law
                  • jks1215
                    Dover AFB is in Kent County DE, NOT New Castle County. The 256KB line from Site R goes to New Castle DE. I suspect that this is the New Castle County Airport
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                      Dover AFB is in Kent County DE, NOT New Castle County. The 256KB
                      line from Site R goes to New Castle DE. I suspect that this is the
                      New Castle County Airport - there is an Air National Guard unit there
                      with a squadron of C-130s. I am not aware of any other DOD
                      installation in the area other than the DE National Guard's USPFO on
                      River Road.

                      john

                      --- In coldwarcomms@y..., Chris Ness <mness215@m...> wrote:
                      > On February 6, 2002 06:27 pm, you wrote:
                      > > Interesting stuff in there . . . check
                      > > http://serviceguide.att.com/ABS/ext/tariffs/general/t16/1690a.doc
                      > >
                      > > Shows GEP sites (based on known sites and lines connected to
                      Waldorf)
                      > > and also. . . a number of links to Site R - how about a dedicated
                      > > line from New Castle County DE to Site R!?!!? Any speculation on
                      > > that one??
                      > >
                      > Dover AFB.
                      >
                      > I am noticing a pattern. They are ending these lines nominally at
                      a distance
                      > from the targets themselves.
                      > --
                      > Chris Ness
                      > mailto:mness215@m... All jobs are equally easy to
                      > http://vivid.nbank.net/~gloster the person not doing
                      the work.
                      > Holt's Law
                    • David Lesher
                      ... That s not surprising at all. Location names under the tariffs are frequently at odds with local usage and/or USGS s. Sometimes it s happenstance; others,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                        Unnamed Administration sources reported that Chris Ness said:
                        >
                        >
                        > I am noticing a pattern. They are ending these lines nominally at a distance
                        > from the targets themselves.

                        That's not surprising at all. Location names under the tariffs
                        are frequently at odds with local usage and/or USGS's. Sometimes
                        it's happenstance; others, who knows?

                        I know of one case that reeks of planning. The 301-688 CO serves
                        one special customer. It's on the LATA border between the DC and
                        B'more, and it is the ONLY prefix with local calling to both
                        regions. (Adjacent rate centers have calling to DC & nearby MD,
                        with a little north; or B'more and its region, with a little
                        south -- but NOT both & Northern VA.

                        But the location name for 301-688 reads something like
                        Odenton/College Park, and you first think, no big deal -- there
                        are lots of adjacent pairs in the tariff. Then you realize
                        how far apart the two towns are, and one is in each LATA.


                        --
                        A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                        & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                        Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                        is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                      • Chris Ness
                        Why would there be a C-130 squadron at the old New Castle County airport when the biggest transportation center on the East coast is so near? You would think
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                          Why would there be a C-130 squadron at the old New Castle County airport when
                          the biggest transportation center on the East coast is so near? You would
                          think they would have some other kind of unit. Or is it a specially unit like
                          the boys over at Ohlmstead/Middleton?

                          On February 8, 2002 09:03 am, you wrote:
                          > Dover AFB is in Kent County DE, NOT New Castle County. The 256KB
                          > line from Site R goes to New Castle DE. I suspect that this is the
                          > New Castle County Airport - there is an Air National Guard unit there
                          > with a squadron of C-130s. I am not aware of any other DOD
                          > installation in the area other than the DE National Guard's USPFO on
                          > River Road.
                          >
                          Perhaps it the line is a switching point to other things like maybe a SW-NE
                          (Washington-New York) route. It would really be better to see this one
                          graphically. But for the bucks it costs each month, I can't see wasting it on
                          a just any old reserve unit.

                          --
                          Chris Ness
                          mailto:mness215@... All jobs are equally easy to
                          http://vivid.nbank.net/~gloster the person not doing the work.
                          Holt's Law
                        • jks1215
                          It is an Air National Guard unit. As to why they are needed - ever tried landing a C-5 (the only aircraft type at Dover) on a short, unimproved strip?
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                            It is an Air National Guard unit. As to why they are needed -
                            ever tried landing a C-5 (the only aircraft type at Dover) on
                            a short, unimproved strip? C-130's are still right handy! :-)


                            They fly a lot, especially into Latin America.


                            --- In coldwarcomms@y..., Chris Ness <mness215@m...> wrote:
                            > Why would there be a C-130 squadron at the old New Castle County
                            airport when
                            > the biggest transportation center on the East coast is so near?
                            You would
                            > think they would have some other kind of unit. Or is it a specially
                            unit like
                            > the boys over at Ohlmstead/Middleton?
                            >
                            > On February 8, 2002 09:03 am, you wrote:
                            > > Dover AFB is in Kent County DE, NOT New Castle County. The 256KB
                            > > line from Site R goes to New Castle DE. I suspect that this is
                            the
                            > > New Castle County Airport - there is an Air National Guard unit
                            there
                            > > with a squadron of C-130s. I am not aware of any other DOD
                            > > installation in the area other than the DE National Guard's USPFO
                            on
                            > > River Road.
                            > >
                            > Perhaps it the line is a switching point to other things like
                            maybe a SW-NE
                            > (Washington-New York) route. It would really be better to see this
                            one
                            > graphically. But for the bucks it costs each month, I can't see
                            wasting it on
                            > a just any old reserve unit.
                            >
                            > --
                            > Chris Ness
                            > mailto:mness215@m... All jobs are equally easy to
                            > http://vivid.nbank.net/~gloster the person not doing
                            the work.
                            > Holt's Law
                          • David Lesher
                            ... Dover s an AFB isn t it? You expect them to let weekend wackos wander around THEIR ramp? -- A host is a host from coast to
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                              Unnamed Administration sources reported that Chris Ness said:
                              >
                              > On February 8, 2002 06:50 pm, you wrote:
                              > > It is an Air National Guard unit. As to why they are needed -
                              > > ever tried landing a C-5 (the only aircraft type at Dover) on
                              > > a short, unimproved strip? C-130's are still right handy! :-)
                              > >
                              > No, not that. Why not fly them into Dover? Having two transports bases so
                              > close together is somewhat suprising.

                              Dover's an AFB isn't it? You expect them to let weekend wackos
                              wander around THEIR ramp?






                              --
                              A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                              & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                              Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                              is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                            • Chris Ness
                              ... No, not that. Why not fly them into Dover? Having two transports bases so close together is somewhat suprising. -- Chris Ness mailto:mness215@mediaone.net
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                                On February 8, 2002 06:50 pm, you wrote:
                                > It is an Air National Guard unit. As to why they are needed -
                                > ever tried landing a C-5 (the only aircraft type at Dover) on
                                > a short, unimproved strip? C-130's are still right handy! :-)
                                >
                                No, not that. Why not fly them into Dover? Having two transports bases so
                                close together is somewhat suprising.

                                --
                                Chris Ness
                                mailto:mness215@... All jobs are equally easy to
                                http://vivid.nbank.net/~gloster the person not doing the work.
                                Holt's Law
                              • Michael G. Cancellier
                                Just so you know, most ANG bases are away from Air Force bases. The Reserves usually share a base with the active duty guys. Considering the Guard belongs to
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 8, 2002
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                                  Just so you know, most ANG bases are away from Air Force bases. The Reserves
                                  usually share a base with the active duty guys. Considering the Guard
                                  belongs to the states, they like to have their own facilities. They pay for
                                  them...


                                  Mike Cancellier


                                  on 2/8/02 21:21, David Lesher at wb8foz@... wrote:

                                  > Unnamed Administration sources reported that Chris Ness said:
                                  >>
                                  >> On February 8, 2002 06:50 pm, you wrote:
                                  >>> It is an Air National Guard unit. As to why they are needed -
                                  >>> ever tried landing a C-5 (the only aircraft type at Dover) on
                                  >>> a short, unimproved strip? C-130's are still right handy! :-)
                                  >>>
                                  >> No, not that. Why not fly them into Dover? Having two transports bases so
                                  >> close together is somewhat suprising.
                                  >
                                  > Dover's an AFB isn't it? You expect them to let weekend wackos
                                  > wander around THEIR ramp?
                                • Chris Ness
                                  ... Thanks, that was what I missed was the ANG in the first message. When I was a kid in the fifties is was an active AFB. As we drove down Rte 13 each summer
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                    On February 8, 2002 11:49 pm, you wrote:
                                    > Just so you know, most ANG bases are away from Air Force bases. The
                                    > Reserves usually share a base with the active duty guys. Considering the
                                    > Guard belongs to the states, they like to have their own facilities. They
                                    > pay for them...
                                    >
                                    Thanks, that was what I missed was the ANG in the first message. When I was a
                                    kid in the fifties is was an active AFB. As we drove down Rte 13 each summer
                                    my face would be pressed to the window to see it all. The busiest runway was
                                    a kid's delight -landings right across the road.
                                    Which brings us full circle to the tariff. Why would they spend the big bucks
                                    specified in the tariff on Site R to an NG base? Must be something else. Has
                                    to be a coincidence.

                                    --
                                    Chris Ness
                                    mailto:mness215@... All jobs are equally easy to
                                    http://vivid.nbank.net/~gloster the person not doing the work.
                                    Holt's Law
                                  • Chris Ness
                                    When I was a kid in the fifties I spent my Summers near Betterton, MD. When we would swim in the Chesapeake, we would live for the wakes from the ships that
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                      When I was a kid in the fifties I spent my Summers near Betterton, MD. When
                                      we would swim in the Chesapeake, we would live for the wakes from the ships
                                      that would go by - they gave us surf. They were coming from and going to the
                                      Delaware bay in the North through the ship canal. It seemed like there was at
                                      least one every 10 minutes of the day or night. A lot of them obviously were
                                      converted T-3s and Liberty ships. This was the days before supertankers and
                                      container ships. The Philadelphia and NYC riversides were
                                      shoulder-to-shoulder docks. So there were a lot of ships. But now the ships
                                      are huge and it doesn't take as many. My question is, do any ships still use
                                      the ship canal? Or is it just pleasure craft now? As I remember the bridges
                                      and electric lines were extremely high, but I think of the canal as fairly
                                      narrow.

                                      --
                                      Chris Ness
                                      mailto:mness215@... All jobs are equally easy to
                                      http://vivid.nbank.net/~gloster the person not doing the work.
                                      Holt's Law
                                    • David Lesher
                                      ... The fact there s a tariff does not mean anyone still orders a circuit under same. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com &
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                        Unnamed Administration sources reported that Chris Ness said:
                                        >
                                        > Which brings us full circle to the tariff. Why would they spend the big bucks
                                        > specified in the tariff on Site R to an NG base? Must be something else. Has
                                        > to be a coincidence.

                                        The fact there's a tariff does not mean anyone still orders a
                                        circuit under same.



                                        --
                                        A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@...
                                        & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                                        Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                                        is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                                      • jks1215
                                        Dover has a LARGE AF Reserve unit in addition to active duty, so I would not use the term weekend wacko around there. :-) Many of the Reserve Component
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                          Dover has a LARGE AF Reserve unit in addition to active duty, so I
                                          would not use the term "weekend wacko" around there. :-) Many of
                                          the Reserve Component pilots have more flying hours than their active
                                          duty counterparts...

                                          --- In coldwarcomms@y..., David Lesher <wb8foz@n...> wrote:
                                          > Unnamed Administration sources reported that Chris Ness said:
                                          > >
                                          > > On February 8, 2002 06:50 pm, you wrote:
                                          > > > It is an Air National Guard unit. As to why they are needed -
                                          > > > ever tried landing a C-5 (the only aircraft type at Dover) on
                                          > > > a short, unimproved strip? C-130's are still right handy! :-)
                                          > > >
                                          > > No, not that. Why not fly them into Dover? Having two transports
                                          bases so
                                          > > close together is somewhat suprising.
                                          >
                                          > Dover's an AFB isn't it? You expect them to let weekend wackos
                                          > wander around THEIR ramp?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@n...
                                          > & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
                                          > Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
                                          > is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
                                        • hooligan@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 2/9/2002 9:22:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, wb8foz@nrk.com ... Nor should we automatically assume the circuit goes/went to the Air National
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                            In a message dated 2/9/2002 9:22:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, wb8foz@...
                                            writes:


                                            > >
                                            > > Which brings us full circle to the tariff. Why would they spend the big
                                            > bucks
                                            > > specified in the tariff on Site R to an NG base? Must be something else.
                                            > Has
                                            > > to be a coincidence.
                                            >
                                            > The fact there's a tariff does not mean anyone still orders a
                                            > circuit under same.


                                            Nor should we automatically assume the circuit goes/went to the Air
                                            National Guard Base.


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Mike Jacobs
                                            Dover is where the Air Force emergency rescue team that was originally at Olmstead AFB in Harrisburg, PA was relocated when that base closed. That is the team
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 9, 2002
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                                              Dover is where the Air Force emergency rescue team that was
                                              originally at Olmstead AFB in Harrisburg, PA was relocated when
                                              that base closed. That is the team that is supposed to helo into
                                              DC after an attack and dig the president out of his bunker under the
                                              White House if it survived, or determine that he is killed and provide
                                              that input into the Central Locator System which keeps track of
                                              who is in the Presidential line of succession at all times and
                                              decides who is the next predisent.

                                              I don't know if that activity is still in place or not, but a guy who was
                                              stationed there in the 70's told me a story about how there was a
                                              small contingent of SAC people at Dover, which was a MAC base.
                                              Anyway, he said the SAC guys would act very condescending to
                                              the MAC guys, but since my friend ran the motor pool, he would
                                              just make sure that their vehicles took twice as long to repair as
                                              anyone else's on base whenever they demanded immediate
                                              service. Don't know how true this is, but it makes a good story,
                                              and sort of says that you need to have everyone on whom your
                                              mission depends be aware of how important it is. The SAC crew
                                              probably wanted their equipment in top shape in case of an attack
                                              and this guy just thought they were being snobby!

                                              Of course, given the number of warheads that the Soviet Union had,
                                              I can't believe that anyone would expect the survival of even Dover
                                              in a full scale attack. At its peak, both the US and Soviet Union
                                              had sufficient warheads that they could have each targeted each
                                              other's territory using an even geographic spacing of aimpoints in a
                                              grid and causing as much damage as the most carefully planned
                                              attack scenario, with many left in reserve.


                                              Mike Jacobs, N3MJ
                                              Antenna and RF Engineering Laboratory
                                              Penn State University
                                              State College, PA
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